Epson 4K (enhancement) e-shift laser projector....!!!!!! - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 4897 Old 09-03-2014, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Do you think the new Epson is likely to support 3D? These days I would think every new mid to high end projector would, but a few years ago I recall that they were not planning 3D support in the reflective technology pj (which never made it to market I think) that I think this one may be based around.
the marketing document has this statement, so I would assume 3D is a go.



The real questions I doubt will be answered at Cedia are 2 fold. How bright is it in 3D and how does it perform with x-talk. It's going to take one of the die hard 3D enthusiasts to objectively provide this info.

The '4K enhancement' sounds a lot like e-shift, it's hard to believe that JVC / NHK wouldn't have a patent on this technology unless they are using a completely different method or they are licensing it to them.

ps. the title still says '4K laser', people reading the main page must be going out of their mind with excitement. Then come inside to find they get 'punked' just a bit w/ e-shift.
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Last edited by zombie10k; 09-03-2014 at 10:09 PM.
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post #32 of 4897 Old 09-03-2014, 10:13 PM
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Sure JVC has true 4k chip projectors, only it uses those with e-shift to do 8K, the true 8K projectors and chips seemed to haven abandoned almost two years ago. There's still that OEM one, still at 180K? One could get two Christies and probably Barco's for that.
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post #33 of 4897 Old 09-03-2014, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I mostly care about the laser engine and the lumen output! Hope it's 2000+ lumens!!! And 50,000 life hour!
The one thing I do not like about LASER is the short lifespan. 20K hours slogan becomes 6K at best, upon closer inspection of the spec. sheet, and drop-off curve, this was true of the BenQ, the Panasonic a year later, and every Diode LASER (/phosphor) projector since. Only in the big boys toys with output management do we see better lifetime/outputmantainance, due to overcapacity.
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post #34 of 4897 Old 09-03-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
epson is showig at IFA Berlin which starts on what is Friday in Berlin. We should know more very shortly. 20,00 is more like the life of a phosphor wheel and that is using a lot of tricks to get there.
Mark press conference is today, Sony's was yesterday, with the no-iris 300.
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post #35 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I've sent in the request to a mod to change the title.


Don't know why we can't just do it ourselves. I tried to update it about 10 sec after I originally posted it, but found out we cant update it ourselves anymore.

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post #36 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 02:51 AM
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^^^

thread title updated

after a few minutes OP cannot change the thread title, you need to ask a mod for help
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post #37 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you sure it's a few minutes? I tried immediately after I hit post the first time.

But thank you for being so quick! You did the change within minutes of me reporting the post! Seriously good work.

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post #38 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 03:28 AM
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when is the press conference of Epson at IFA today?
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post #39 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post
when is the press conference of Epson at IFA today?
If it is a laser-RGB, it will replace my Vango in my HT.
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post #40 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
the marketing document has this statement, so I would assume 3D is a go.



The real questions I doubt will be answered at Cedia are 2 fold. How bright is it in 3D and how does it perform with x-talk. It's going to take one of the die hard 3D enthusiasts to objectively provide this info.

The '4K enhancement' sounds a lot like e-shift, it's hard to believe that JVC / NHK wouldn't have a patent on this technology unless they are using a completely different method or they are licensing it to them.

ps. the title still says '4K laser', people reading the main page must be going out of their mind with excitement. Then come inside to find they get 'punked' just a bit w/ e-shift.

JVC licenses the e shift technology from NHK. NHK makes money and to them the more licensees the more money they make.

Last edited by mark haflich; 09-04-2014 at 05:31 AM.
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post #41 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
the marketing document has this statement, so I would assume 3D is a go.



The real questions I doubt will be answered at Cedia are 2 fold. How bright is it in 3D and how does it perform with x-talk. It's going to take one of the die hard 3D enthusiasts to objectively provide this info.

The '4K enhancement' sounds a lot like e-shift, it's hard to believe that JVC / NHK wouldn't have a patent on this technology unless they are using a completely different method or they are licensing it to them.

ps. the title still says '4K laser', people reading the main page must be going out of their mind with excitement. Then come inside to find they get 'punked' just a bit w/ e-shift.

The pixel shifting technique was not invented by JVC nor NHK. It was invented by TI with some aspects coming from Hughes and was used in all of the 1080p DLP rear projection TVs where the pixel shifting technique was referred to as wobulation. The big difference was these DLPs used DMD display chips that had 1/2 of the pixel count such that went the 2nd, shifted, sub-image was displayed the result was a full resolution 1080p image. In the JVC and Epson case the display chip (i.e., 1080p) only has 1/4 the pixel count of UHD and thus the original plus shifted sub-images produce an final image with only 1/2 the total displayed pixel count of a true 2160p image. With a native high quality 4K/UHD source, these JVC and Epson projectors should be capable of displaying a higher resolution image than a standard 1080p projector, but certainly not as good as a native 4K/UHD projector.


Even though NHK nor JVC invented the pixel shifting concept, NHK may hold patents on a specific implementation that they license to JVC and others.


Also for those going to IFA and CEDIA Expo - be prepared for some of the specific features on these prototype projectors to not yet be functional as the software will probably not be completed until just before the projectors are ready to be begin shipping. This was true last year for the new JVC models and will probably be true this year for the Epson. Also the performance of some functions may be improved between IFA/CEDIA and when the full production versions actually begin shipping a few months down the road.

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Last edited by Ron Jones; 09-04-2014 at 01:42 PM.
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post #42 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:32 AM
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Thanks for the details. I've compared high quality 4K sources on the current JVC's vs the Sony VW1100. It's a good effort but not quite as convincing as the native 4K panels can deliver which should be expected.

I'm interested in DonaldK's comments earlier about the actual longevity of the laser sources.
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post #43 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:33 AM
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What JVC uses to do the shifting is licensed from NHK and I assumed procured from them (the lens element).
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post #44 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
The pixel shifting technique was not invented by JVC nor NHK. It was invented by TI with some aspects coming from Hughes and was used in all of the 1080p DLP rear projection TVs where the pixel shifting technique was referred to as wobulation. The big difference was these DLPs used DMD display chips that had 1/2 of the pixel count such that went the 2nd, shifted, sub-image was displayed the result was a full resolution 1080p image. In the JVC and Epson case the display chip (i.e., 1080p) only has 1/4 the pixel count of UHD and thus the original plus shifted sub-images produce an final image with only 1/2 the total displayed pixel count of a true 2160p image. With a native high quality 4K/UHD source, these JVC and Epson projectors should be capable of displaying a higher resolution image than a standard 1080p projector, but certainly not as good as a native 4K/UHD projector.

Agreed Ron (and thanks for the info on the origin of e-shift), but the lens quality is as important as the panels resolution.


For example, the lens of the VW1x00 fully resolves a 2160p picture, but the lens in the VW300/500/600 doesn't and also sits in between 1080p and 2160p.


Where does it sit exactly regarding the actual resolution vs the e-shift models, I don't know, but having native 4K/UHD panels isn't enough to warrant a fully resolved 4K picture on screen.


I know you already know this, just thought it would be useful to make it clear .
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post #45 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 05:43 AM
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Its all about advertising and salesmanship. The compromises we made were necessary to lower the cost to you and were determined to have only a minimal teeny tiny impact on PQ. Putting his arm around you. look at that image my friend. Its amazing. Its unbelievable. Their 4K doesn't look any better to your eyes when scaling HD and with OUR direct UHD in, see that REDRAY feed it, its pretty damn close without having to use more expensive chips and lenses.
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post #46 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Its all about advertising and salesmanship. The compromises we made were necessary to lower the cost to you and were determined to have only a minimal teeny tiny impact on PQ. Putting his arm around you. look at that image my friend. Its amazing. Its unbelievable. Their 4K doesn't look any better to your eyes when scaling HD and with OUR direct UHD in, see that REDRAY feed it, its pretty damn close without having to use more expensive chips and lenses.
From my experience differences are there but often very subtle. Are you willing to pay $25,000 for a projector you consider only slightly better than the $12,000 model, especially when you know in a year or two both will be considered obsolete. When you want to upgrade in a few years you'll be happier eating $6,000 than $12,500 on the used market. The new HT 4K laser (fake or real) projectors hitting the market place over the next 18 months or so are going to destabilize the used market -- depreciation has always been a problem but now I believe it's going to be a very bitter pill to swallow. It's really all about perception and marketing determines perception.

Last edited by Deja Vu; 09-04-2014 at 09:25 AM.
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post #47 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 09:52 AM
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is there historical data that proves these laser hybrids at the consumer level can actually last as long as they claim? DonaldK brought up some interesting concerns earlier that no one responded to.
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post #48 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
^^^

thread title updated

after a few minutes OP cannot change the thread title, you need to ask a mod for help
Mark, the forum says there is a reply posted five minutes after the opening post, many forums don't allow post editing after a reply has been posted. Perhaps that is also the case with the new AVS Forum software set-up.

Edit: nope can still edit my post;-).

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post #49 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Mark, the forum says there is a reply posted five minutes after the opening post, many forums don't allow post editing after a reply has been posted. Perhaps that is also the case with the new AVS Forum software set-up.
that may indeed be the answer: so many changes going on it is tough to keep up
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post #50 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 10:47 AM
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Zombie when I looked some time ago for that old BenQ brochure online and could not find it. I got a printed version at the ISE show, when the projector with BenQ's own hybrid LASER/Phosphor engine was launched. 20K hours, but it was an short throw WXGA projector aimed at the classroom market,i.e. light rooms that need all the lumens, so at the 2000 initial lumens setting, not the 1000 initial lumens that the marketing people say should last 20K hours. But that is to 50% output, i.e. 500 lumens if one is lucky. Take 10K hours and follow the curve it 70% was around 6K hours if I remember correctly, i.e. replace the unit at least every three years, perhaps quicker. The Panasonic 3500 initial lumens engine in the rz-370/470 and wxga models curve was still online a few weeks ago.

LED has 5% or 10% drop-off after 20K hours.

Last edited by donaldk; 09-04-2014 at 10:56 AM.
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post #51 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 01:12 PM
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Panasonic's warranty covers the PT-RZ-430/470 laser/LED light source for 10,000 hours. If it's good for only 6,000 hours Panasonic has a problem. It'll be interesting to see what Epson's warranty says.
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post #52 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 06:39 PM
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post #53 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Panasonic's warranty covers the PT-RZ-430/470 laser/LED light source for 10,000 hours. If it's good for only 6,000 hours Panasonic has a problem. It'll be interesting to see what Epson's warranty says.
Panasonic starts at 30K hours not 20K/10K like BenQ did. Spec and thus warranty is down to 50% of original specced output.
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post #54 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 09:06 PM
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Peter was planning on a long blended wall of these things, when Sony showed the prototypes last year. He'll probably find a client for it;-). Cheaper than the Barco;-).
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post #55 of 4897 Old 09-04-2014, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualunquemente View Post
If it is a laser-RGB, it will replace my Vango in my HT.
hii Cetto, i think should be another hybrid phosphor-laser Prj...

Based on latest Osram's Phasers???

http://www.osram-os.com/osram_os/en/...tors/index.jsp

Let's see
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post #56 of 4897 Old 09-05-2014, 03:59 AM
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Just got this email from Projector Central about the new Epson. Guess the NDA is off. Evan claims to have had one for two months and will post review next Wednesday.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ntry_id=683&em

This is a brief quote from the story:

The Pro Cinema LS10000 will be a major step up in price and performance compared to anything previously released by Epson. Its features include 4K enhancement of 1080p sources, native 4K compatibility, a light engine that combines a long life laser light source with reflective 3LCD chips, and 3-way automated lens memory for 2.40, 1.85, and 1.78 Constant Image Height installations. Contrast is so high on the LS10000 that Epson declines to put a number on it. Contrast is simply designated as “Absolute Black.”

Last edited by rwestley; 09-05-2014 at 04:02 AM.
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post #57 of 4897 Old 09-05-2014, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post
Panasonic starts at 30K hours not 20K/10K like BenQ did. Spec and thus warranty is down to 50% of original specced output.
According to Panasonic's video promotion their lamp-free projectors are maintenance-free for 20,000 hours. Here's the link:


Here's the warranty information as stated in the Projector Reviews review of the RZ-430 (20,000 hours total and a warranty for 10,000 hours on the light source):

http://www.projectorreviews.com/pana...30uk-warranty/

I would expect something similar from Epson.

Last edited by Deja Vu; 09-05-2014 at 04:09 AM.
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post #58 of 4897 Old 09-05-2014, 04:22 AM
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Is there any idea what the lite output will be?


Edit: Sorry, looks like we don't know yet. I also need 2000 lumens .


Thanks,
Moto
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post #59 of 4897 Old 09-05-2014, 04:47 AM
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Epson doing a presser today at IFA?
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post #60 of 4897 Old 09-05-2014, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
Just got this email from Projector Central about the new Epson. Guess the NDA is off. Evan claims to have had one for two months and will post review next Wednesday.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ntry_id=683&em

This is a brief quote from the story:

The Pro Cinema LS10000 will be a major step up in price and performance compared to anything previously released by Epson. Its features include 4K enhancement of 1080p sources, native 4K compatibility, a light engine that combines a long life laser light source with reflective 3LCD chips, and 3-way automated lens memory for 2.40, 1.85, and 1.78 Constant Image Height installations. Contrast is so high on the LS10000 that Epson declines to put a number on it. Contrast is simply designated as “Absolute Black.”
Dang, I'm really going to want one of these but I'm guessing way out of my price range.
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