Epson 4K (enhancement) e-shift laser projector....!!!!!! - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Yes sir. But that was the other me. You got me.
In Mark's defense, I posed the question and didn't see it either. I even used the "find" functionality in my web browser and got no hits on "lag". Wonder if it was updated later this morning as Art might still have been updating the review? This number is a deal killer for me. I do game quite a bit and anything over 50ms is no good and especially since this is best case scenario with what sounds like a bad picture setting.
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post #242 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:39 AM
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Regardless. I paid my fine. It takes about 1 hour to read the review thoroughly and one's mind will still be filled with certain criticisms of the review and certain questions. But that's our job. Its a great job by Art.

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post #243 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:45 AM
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Many people who would now be posting instead of being productive at their jobs are traveling today. Things here will heat up later today.
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post #244 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Yes sir. But that was the other me. You got me.
In Mark's defense, I posed the question and didn't see it either. I even used the "find" functionality in my web browser and got no hits on "lag". Wonder if it was updated later this morning as Art might still have been updating the review? This number is a deal killer for me. I do game quite a bit and anything over 50ms is no good and especially since this is best case scenario with what sounds like a bad picture setting.
No problems! It was just a joke for Mark!
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post #245 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 07:10 AM
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Man the 56ms input lag is a killer for me, I was really interested. I wonder if the non pro version with no 4k pixel shift may fair better or if they could clean it up with the production model of the 100000.
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post #246 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 07:14 AM
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post #247 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 07:37 AM
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Got my fingers crossed for the non-pro aswell. 56 MS is a dealbreaker.
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post #248 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 08:13 AM
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Here is a link to the Projector central review published by Evan this morning:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...tor_review.htm
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post #249 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 08:31 AM
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I've been playing ps3, ps4 games on my Sony VW95 for the past 3 years. Including games like Diablo 3, Gran Turismo 5, and Assassin's Creed. I was going to say how this input lag was going to prevent me from thinking about the new Epson, but then I remembered, I never use the VW95's game mode! So I've been generally happily playing with a 54ms input lag, not it's 17ms game mode input lag, basically even with what the Epson could provide in its quickest mode.
Thinking of this, my failure to switch into game mode may explain some challenge when batting in MLB Baseball, where it's really a fast twitch that's key. (I need to try that game again with projector set to "game"!) For people playing adventure/strategy and non-twitch action games I don't think 54 -56ms is a deal killer.


But I'll still probably wait a year or two to replace my Sony VW95, because it still is a great all-around projector. Thanks AVS, from whom I purchased!
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post #250 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 08:34 AM
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There are non subjective inconsistencies between the two reviews. Evan published the life expectancy of the laser as being 10K hours in high mode. There are three intensity modes. he says there is also a mechanical iris besides the laser dimming non mechanical mode. even talks about dark detail. Of course that is a function of the gamma curve and there being enough on/off to prevent black crush which would obscure detail that's there. Scott W. has started still another thread on the two laser hybrid projectors. i have requested him to post his comments here including his first post in his thread. both Evan and Scott state the unit has a mechanical color filter which switches in for the digital cinema mode. The filter creates a space that is different from PS.

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post #251 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 09:30 AM
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what is the point in a separate thread? The info posted about the 480hz 3D looks lifted from their 5030 series, it tells little about the actual 3D performance. yes some people still care about 3D.

The lumen output in 3D is important to know, it's easy enough to measure. Does it drop like every other projector on the market or did they pull off a trick somehow to maintain the brightness? I still have those 3D L/R patterns handy if PC or PR wants to post some objective info on 3D performance.
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post #252 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 10:09 AM
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This is a pretty big unit at basically 22x22x9. Fitting, since Epson refers to it as LCOQ...

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post #253 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Man the 56ms input lag is a killer for me, I was really interested. I wonder if the non pro version with no 4k pixel shift may fair better or if they could clean it up with the production model of the 100000.
So far, Sony has been the main company focusing on gaming performance starting with the HW30. I don't think this will change when Epson goes to production. The 56ms PC measured was a in fast mode which can produce some artifacts on their existing models.
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post #254 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
So far, Sony has been the main company focusing on gaming performance starting with the HW30. I don't think this will change when Epson goes to production. The 56ms PC measured was a in fast mode which can produce some artifacts on their existing models.
Yeah , I was planning on getting an HW55 but was hoping something new would come out at Cedia. Some of the past epsons have been around 30ms range which is what I think most of the Sony's are, I was hoping they could hit that I will be curious to see what the lag on the VW300 is with the new game mode since the past 4K stuff was atrocious for Input lag. I dont think I will be able to afford that one though, plus the no manual iris is a big deal for me since I am not lighting a huge screen and am in a light controlled room.
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post #255 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 12:54 PM
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That's really sad for the input lag because in all others area this projector seems to be a must have! With some of the best ghosting free bright 3d!! Sad for 3d gaming with such a lag...
What's really sad for 3D gaming, is that there is basically none of it anymore. At least on the PS4 and Xbox One. I thought these next-gen console would finally have the fire-power to deliver 1080p60 3D. Instead game developers seem to be completely ignoring it, except for some side titles. For example Killzone 3 was amazing in 3D - best part of the game and the experience. In killzone 4 for the PS4, no 3D at all.

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Got my fingers crossed for the non-pro aswell. 56 MS is a dealbreaker.
I have the Sony VW95 and can say that I never really notice any lag when gaming. So 56 ms doesn't concern me that much. What does concern me tho is that on the Epson it is accomplished in a mode that sounds like it degrades the picture. Whereas on the Sony it does not since I use it in the regular mode and not game mode.

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Originally Posted by A.West View Post
I've been playing ps3, ps4 games on my Sony VW95 for the past 3 years. Including games like Diablo 3, Gran Turismo 5, and Assassin's Creed. I was going to say how this input lag was going to prevent me from thinking about the new Epson, but then I remembered, I never use the VW95's game mode! So I've been generally happily playing with a 54ms input lag, not it's 17ms game mode input lag, basically even with what the Epson could provide in its quickest mode.
Thinking of this, my failure to switch into game mode may explain some challenge when batting in MLB Baseball, where it's really a fast twitch that's key. (I need to try that game again with projector set to "game"!) For people playing adventure/strategy and non-twitch action games I don't think 54 -56ms is a deal killer.


But I'll still probably wait a year or two to replace my Sony VW95, because it still is a great all-around projector. Thanks AVS, from whom I purchased!
Yes I am in the same boat. I never put the VW95 into game mode and have never felt the need to. In fact, I didn't even realize there was such a big difference in the lag time between the two modes. MLB 14 plays OK for me - I don't notice the lag. Just for grins and giggles I may try game mode to see the difference.

Bottom line for me is that I'd be ok with 56 ms lag provided the picture still looks very good, even if not at its best. But if there is noticeable degradation, that is another story.
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post #256 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 01:26 PM
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Here are some interesting specs on the LS10000: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...0#product-info

Mark - I know you are a big lens guy. What do you think of the specs on the lens, and can you deduce anything form this as to its quality?

Lens

Type: Powered Optical zoom/ Powered focus

F-number: 2.5 – 3.7

Focal Length: 21.3 mm – 44.7 mm

Zoom Ratio: 1.0 – 2.1

Lens Shift:

Vertical: 90% max (up and down with horz. centered)
Horizontal: 40% max (left and right with vertical centered)
Lens Cover: Powered, Slide Lens Shutter


Projection System: 3LCD Reflective 3-chip technology

Projection Method: Front / rear / ceiling mount

Product Color: Black

Driving Method: Epson Poly-silicon TFT Active Matrix, 0.74-inch wide panel Reflective HTPS

Projected Output: HD, 2D, 3D, 1080p

Pixel Number: 2,073,600 dots (1920 x 1080) x 3

Color Brightness (Color Light Ouput): 1500 lumens1

White Brightness (White Light Output): 1500 lumens1

Aspect Ratio: 16:9 widescreen (4:3 resize) Compatible with 4:3 and 2.35:1 video formats with Normal, Full or Zoom Modes

Native Resolution: 1080p (1920 x 1080)

Resize: 16:10, 4:3

Laser Type: Laser Diode 41.9 mW (Output)

Light Source Life: Up to 30,000 hours (ECO Mode)2

Throw Ratio Range: 1.28 (Zoom: Wide), 2.73 (Zoom: Tele)

Size (projected distance): 100" diagonal (wide: 9.3' – tele: 19.8')

Keystone Correction: ±30 degrees

Contrast Ratio: Absolute Black (Full White 1500 lumens / Full Black 0 lumens)

Color Reproduction: Up to 1.07 billion colors

Color Processing: 10 bit (Partial 12 bit)
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post #257 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
So far, Sony has been the main company focusing on gaming performance starting with the HW30. I don't think this will change when Epson goes to production. The 56ms PC measured was a in fast mode which can produce some artifacts on their existing models.
Yes, the FAST mode looks really horrible on my Epson 9200 (5030).

AND even if you are ready to use it, you cannot activate the FAST mode for 3D.

So--> 3D gaming is impossible with over 100ms etc...

BUT maybe the FAST mode does not kill the picture on the new projector... in this case, I could "almost" live with 56ms lag...
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post #258 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 01:49 PM
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Here's some marketing info from the LS10000 website on "Color Brightness": http://www.epson.com/alf_upload/pdfs...brightness.pdf

Is there something to this or is this mostly marketing propaganda? If there is something to this, anyone know what type of color brightness the Sony VW95 and JVC line has?
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post #259 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:02 PM
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Reading Art's and Evan's reviews, this sounds like it THE projector that addressed all of my upgrade priorities (I don't game so the lag isn't a concern).
$8K though isn't where my budget is though, so even though this won't be making it into my HT this year, I'm finally excited again about the future of this hobby. Next year looks like it will be the big upgrade year for me, either for the next iteration of this or JVC response to it. Should be a mouthwatering $5-6K model at that point that's even better.
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post #260 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Here's some marketing info from the LS10000 website on "Color Brightness": http://www.epson.com/alf_upload/pdfs...brightness.pdf

Is there something to this or is this mostly marketing propaganda? If there is something to this, anyone know what type of color brightness the Sony VW95 and JVC line has?
Hi Ric,


It looks to me like they're talking about the difference between peak brightness and brightness calibrated to D65 (or whatever the reference for the white point is).


The more I read about this LS10000 the more interesting I find it.


It's a bit frustrating that it only arrives in Europe in Spring 2015, on another hand it's kind of nice to have our American cousins play the guinea pigs. I mean, the early testers .
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post #261 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:11 PM
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Hi Ric,


It looks to me like they're talking about the difference between peak brightness and brightness calibrated to D65 (or whatever the reference for the white point is).
Any feel for what the difference is with other pjs like the VW95, VW600/1x00 and JVCs, and how they may compare? Is this really a relevant matter?

Quote:
The more I read about this LS10000 the more interesting I find it.


It's a bit frustrating that it only arrives in Europe in Spring 2015, on another hand it's kind of nice to have our American cousins play the guinea pigs. I mean, the early testers .
Guess it is my turn this time around, eh?
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post #262 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Ric,


It looks to me like they're talking about the difference between peak brightness and brightness calibrated to D65 (or whatever the reference for the white point is).


The more I read about this LS10000 the more interesting I find it.


It's a bit frustrating that it only arrives in Europe in Spring 2015, on another hand it's kind of nice to have our American cousins play the guinea pigs. I mean, the early testers .
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Any feel for what the difference is with other pjs like the VW95, VW600/1x00 and JVCs, and how they may compare? Is this really a relevant matter?



Guess it is my turn this time around, eh?
This is what they're talking about:

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...olorbrightness

Sony has something similar. They call it "Triluminous" display technology. Previous 5xxx 3LCD Epson projectors share the same technology. They've been flaunting this technology for a few years now. It has to be with how bright/saturated colors look compared to other display technologies.
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post #263 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Here's some marketing info from the LS10000 website on "Color Brightness": http://www.epson.com/alf_upload/pdfs...brightness.pdf

Is there something to this or is this mostly marketing propaganda? If there is something to this, anyone know what type of color brightness the Sony VW95 and JVC line has?
I didn't follow the link, but I am familiar with the color brightness test. It is just another test for displays among many, but the basics are that it is the white level if you only add up what the display does for red, what it does for blue, and what it does for green, not counting white that is added to the pictures, but can't be done in individual primaries (since it is white).

For instance, a display that has 4 colors of pixels that are red, green, blue, and white would not get to count the white pixels for this parameter.

That is basically the short version and given that the Sony and JVCs you mentioned don't add white that isn't from the 3 primaries their values should basically be the same as their regular light output. I don't recall the specifics about the display calibration before doing the test though. It has been a few years since I voted to keep that test in the document it was included in (a standard sponsored by SID).

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post #264 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I didn't follow the link, but I am familiar with the color brightness test. It is just another test for displays among many, but the basics are that it is the white level if you only add up what the display does for red, what it does for blue, and what it does for green, not counting white that is added to the pictures, but can't be done in individual primaries (since it is white).

For instance, a display that has 4 colors of pixels that are red, green, blue, and white would not get to count the white pixels for this parameter.

That is basically the short version and given that the Sony and JVCs you mentioned don't add white that isn't from the 3 primaries their values should basically be the same as their regular light output. I don't recall the specifics about the display calibration before doing the test though. It has been a few years since I voted to keep that test in the document it was included in (a standard sponsored by SID).

--Darin
Thanks Darin. I follow the idea behind the wider gamut. But I'm not sure how colors can be more saturated and still be considered valid. For instance, there is a given xyY for each primary and secondary right? So if any color is souped up any more than that, doesn't it then become "over blown" (at least in relation to the standard)?
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post #265 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 03:05 PM
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The LS10000 looks like a great projector. However, what stops me from wanting to buy it (judging by the reviews) is the contrast/black levels are not better than the JVC X700/X900. Therefore, I'll wait until next year for JVC's response. I'm patient, and my RS35 is still great
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post #266 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 05:05 PM
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The LS10000 looks like a great projector. However, what stops me from wanting to buy it (judging by the reviews) is the contrast/black levels are not better than the JVC X700/X900. Therefore, I'll wait until next year for JVC's response. I'm patient, and my RS35 is still great
If absolute darkest blacks are your top and foremost priority despite any other advantages the Epson may offer, than that sounds like a good plan. Deep blacks are important to me, but for my tastes I don't need them to be the darkest possible as long as they are excellent and there are other benefits that the Epson brings.
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post #267 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 05:51 PM
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I would bet the JVC's still beat the Epson in overall contrast as well. It seems the 4k shifting technique used by the Epson is better than JVC's shift. I wonder what they are doing differently with a similar concept to arrive at a noticeably better result.

The Epson being HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 complaint and capable of wider color gamut is a HUGE plus should future content make use of them. HDCP 2.2 is probably the biggest factor as we know future sources will require that.


It's impossible to tell for sure, but from the screen shots on projector reviews make it looks a bit overcooked. I'd be curious to see how film like the Epson looks in comparison to the JVC's which usually look very natural and film like.

We've all bee so focused on 4K, it kind of redefines "next gen" to see a new light source before 4K PJ's become more widespread. I do envy a stable long lasting light source. We will have to see how they hold up over time.

Good job on Epson's part for taking a different tract and giving the mid/upper level JVC's and hopefully sony's a run for their money!
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post #268 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:00 PM
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I've posted by CEDIA Day 1 blog that just talks about the Epson projectors (link below). I've attempted to expand a little on what's in Art's review as well as provide some background info on the technologies being used. Since Evan and Scott have also published/posted more info today on the LS10000 it appears that many of the questions the forum's members have been postion over the past couple of weeks have now been answered. The US Epson reps. still don't have info on every technical detail on the LS10000 so it my be a while before all outstanding questions can be addressed with reliable info.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/tech...po-2014-day-1/

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post #269 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I've posted by CEDIA Day 1 blog that just talks about the Epson projectors (link below). I've attempted to expand a little on what's in Art's review as well as provide some background info on the technologies being used. Since Evan and Scott have also published/posted more info today on the LS10000 it appears that many of the questions the forum's members have been postion over the past couple of weeks have now been answered. The US Epson reps. still don't have info on every technical detail on the LS10000 so it my be a while before all outstanding questions can be addressed with reliable info.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/tech...po-2014-day-1/
You mention a FW update for the 5030. Is that possible for existing owners or just new unit's sold with the new FW?
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post #270 of 4897 Old 09-10-2014, 06:51 PM
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Brightness

So, they're rated at 30k hours in Eco mode. Does that mean until half brightness, like the UHP ratings? I wonder what light output it would have, calibrated in Eco mode. The top model is rated at 1500 lumens, which we must assume is in high power mode. What do we think the Eco mode will be? Half? Less? What would the lifetime be in high mode? 15k hours? And, once again, is that to half brightness?

Does anybody have any idea what the replacement laser assembly would cost?
We run our projector as our tv. We wrack up close to 3k hours a year(two young kids). We also don't usually run it in pitch black, so brightness is important. We can darken for critical viewing, but most is done with ambient light. I see us running at high power.

How many hours can we expect, what would happen over time, and what would be the cost of the laser,assembly replacement?

Thanks!
Jason
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