Epson LS10000 Laser Projector Demo at CEDIA 2014 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 474 Old 09-18-2014, 04:21 PM
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Its not polite to have your phone ring in the middle of a movie my guests are watching and if I put my phone on vibrate God knows what they would think I was doing if it started vibrating. Further even if I switched it off, in the time it took to turn on, mass panic might have ensued. I used to have a calculator watch and a slide rule tie clasp. I rarely wear my Rolex but it used to have a glowing radon dial and and hour and minute hands but for my safety and that of the general public, I had them replaced with non radon ones. Beam me up Scotty.
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post #62 of 474 Old 09-18-2014, 05:02 PM
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Hi All,

I see from Scott's comments that he wanted to contact me about certain aspects of the calibration of Epson's LS10000 at the recent 2014 CEDIA Expo. Since I have not heard from him since the show, and there has been a lot of buzz about the two threads on Epson's new Laser based reflective LCD projector, I am responding to the threads.

Let me start by addressing the two main issues I observed in these posts regarding the projector’s performance, and the calibration. First, Scott's comment on the Red not being orange, and therefore must be outside of the REC 709 Spec, is not correct. Just because Red is not Orange does not mean that it is outside of REC 709 Color Space. The Red post calibration was x=.340 (exactly Rec 709 spec) and y=327 (.003 from .330 specification), results that were obtained without any manipulation of the CMS system in the Advanced Menu.



Secondly, I do not doubt that what the audience observed at the demo on the Blu-ray demo of "The Need For Speed" looked edge enhanced. All I can say is that when I was finished with the calibration, the Darbee was defeated on the Oppo Blu-ray player, and Super Resolution was set to 1 exhibiting no edge enhancement whatsoever. What happened after I left the booth, I cannot say.

I believe there was some comment about gamma as well. I attempted to calibrate to BT.1886, a modification of the Power 2.4 gamma, and the PJ came very close to reproducing that perfectly.



I cannot upload the CalMAN PDF as it is too large, but I am emailing it to Scott so he can attempt to publish it.
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post #63 of 474 Old 09-18-2014, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post
Secondly, I do not doubt that what the audience observed at the demo on the Blu-ray demo of "The Need For Speed" looked edge enhanced. All I can say is that when I was finished with the calibration, the Darbee was defeated on the Oppo Blu-ray player, and Super Resolution was set to 1 exhibiting no edge enhancement whatsoever. What happened after I left the booth, I cannot say.
Thanks for the update Kevin. I would have loved to see the projector like that. When I asked where the Super Resolution was I was told it was at 3, but I didn't get to see the setting myself.

I kind of wish I had taken some pictures, if that would have been allowed. I think people might be surprised at how big the lines were around some objects when the picture was paused.

I'm still confused about how I could see pixels from up close to the screen when the projector was supposedly doing its 4K thing. Made me wonder if that wasn't really on or working with 1080p, although I was told it was on.

BTW: I did think about trying to contact you during the show to see if you could get them to turn the super resolution down or change the content. I heard from somebody who saw it before the show who said it looked great with 1080p content besides NFS. Maybe they saw it the way you had it set up and it wasn't really that it was a different source as much as a different sharpening setting.

--Darin
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post #64 of 474 Old 09-18-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post
Hi All,

I see from Scott's comments that he wanted to contact me about certain aspects of the calibration of Epson's LS10000 at the recent 2014 CEDIA Expo. Since I have not heard from him since the show, and there has been a lot of buzz about the two threads on Epson's new Laser based reflective LCD projector, I am responding to the threads.

Let me start by addressing the two main issues I observed in these posts regarding the projector’s performance, and the calibration. First, Scott's comment on the Red not being orange, and therefore must be outside of the REC 709 Spec, is not correct. Just because Red is not Orange does not mean that it is outside of REC 709 Color Space. The Red post calibration was x=.340 (exactly Rec 709 spec) and y=327 (.003 from .330 specification), results that were obtained without any manipulation of the CMS system in the Advanced Menu.



Secondly, I do not doubt that what the audience observed at the demo on the Blu-ray demo of "The Need For Speed" looked edge enhanced. All I can say is that when I was finished with the calibration, the Darbee was defeated on the Oppo Blu-ray player, and Super Resolution was set to 1 exhibiting no edge enhancement whatsoever. What happened after I left the booth, I cannot say.

I believe there was some comment about gamma as well. I attempted to calibrate to BT.1886, a modification of the Power 2.4 gamma, and the PJ came very close to reproducing that perfectly.



I cannot upload the CalMAN PDF as it is too large, but I am emailing it to Scott so he can attempt to publish it.
Kevin - thanks so much for the report and for sending Scott the PDF of the calibration. That will be fantastic to see.

A few questions please:

1. You mentioned red was right on target for xy - how about for Y? How about the other primaries and secondaries?

2. How well does the color track across 25%, 50% and 75% saturation levels?

3. Did you run the CalMAN ColorChecker SG? I'd love to see that report.

4. What were you subjective impressions of the overall picture quality, black levels and contrast?

Thanks!
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post #65 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Or you could just carry a phone.

I have a light on my watch for such emergencies.

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I use my iPhone light to get out of the room after I turn everything off.
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post #66 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
I use my iPhone light to get out of the room after I turn everything off.
I thought everyone did.

Actually now that I think of it, since this pj is a laser, it would be a pretty neat feature to have a 5 minute delayed off so we could clean up and exit before we lost our light source. Not that I'd even suggest they add it because such a feature is so trivial - but if it was my design, I'd do it. That's how you can tell whether the people designing these things are avid users of their own products.
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post #67 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
So just to confirm - are you saying that with a 0 IRE pattern, complete fade to black, that the laser light does indeed completely turn off and there is no light from the projector?

In the black bars, you would be able to see hand puppets. Also at one point the image was all black on the screen and I could see the projected light. In other words, you could have seen hand puppets then.
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post #68 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the calibration results from Kevin Miller. Clearly, I was mistaken about the red color; it is perfectly in line with BT.709. I should not have doubted Kevin's calibration; he is among the best in the business. Now that I think back on it, I believe I was swayed by the presenter, who said the red color was outside the normal color gamut, and it did look more deeply red to me. But I should have checked it out more carefully before writing that it was wrong, so I apologize to Kevin for that.

The grayscale was pretty darn good even before the calibration, but Kevin got it even closer to ideal:



The colors were nearly spot on before calibration (especially red!), so Kevin didn't have to do much, though he got the delta-L and delta-E values even lower:



Here are the numbers for all you hard-core calibration geeks out there:



Obviously, Kevin nailed the calibration, and I was mistaken. Sorry about that!
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post #69 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Now that I think back on it, I believe I was swayed by the presenter, who said the red color was outside the normal color gamut, and it did look more deeply red to me.
Maybe the presenter changed it after Kevin's calibration, like it seems he changed the super resolution setting.

--Darin
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post #70 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 04:38 PM
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The measurements pre-calibration look better than many projectors in the same price range after calibration.

My only concern is if the light source will only last 5,000 hours. If so, can the light source get replaced for a decent price.
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post #71 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

1. You mentioned red was right on target for xy - how about for Y? How about the other primaries and secondaries?

2. How well does the color track across 25%, 50% and 75% saturation levels?

3. Did you run the CalMAN ColorChecker SG? I'd love to see that report.

Thanks!
This would be good info to see, the 6 point doesn't provide enough info. i'd like to see 25%, 50% & 75% + the color checker
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post #72 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 06:44 PM
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I've been looking over Mike's notes and test results from his calibration of the LS10000 that Art used for his review. I picked up a little info from Mike's notes also from an Epson rep. at CEDIA that I didn't include in my blog.


As we all know this projector has several different picture modes, as do virtually all projectors. As with most projectors the Dynamic mode is the brightest and Mike measured 1615 lumens with the "lens iris" set to zero and with the zoom lens at it mid position (these same iris and zoom settings were used for all reported lumens measurement). By default Dynamic mode uses the high brightness setting for the lasers. Changing this to the mid setting dropped the light output to 1233 lumens (still in dynamic mode). In the THX mode the light output was 1224 lumens while in Digital Cinema mode (I assume using DCI P3 color space as the default and looking at Mike's Chromapure figure for Chromaticity that appears to be the case) the light output was 1085 lumens. This info is consistent with what Art reported in his review (link below) for the uncalibrated light output.. Using maximum zoom, for the shortest throw distance, produces an 8% increase in lumens output from the above values. See the performance section of that review for the measured lumens in all picture modes at the following web page:
.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/acer...000-brightness


Now for some additional info/discussion. While the reported lumens numbers in the review were for the high laser mode, the default laser mode is Medium for the Natural,Cinema, B&W Cinema, Digital Cinema, Adobe RGB and THX picture modes (where the lumens output is ~23% less than in the high laser mode). Perhaps medium laser mode was used as a default for the majority of picture modes to extend the laser life, but in any case it can be set to high if the extra lumens are needed.

I asked a Epson rep. (technical type) if there is an internal color filter that moves into place for Digital Cinema (DC) mode and he said that while there is an internal filter, it is moved into place for several of the higher fidelity color modes (e.g., THX) and the same filter is also used for DC mode (i.e., there is no unique filter used just for DC mode). While Mike reported that the calibration of the THX mode only resulted in a slight decrease in lumens output, there was no attempt to calibrate for DCI P3 mode so I have no info how the lumens output might change with calibration. Note that the uncalibrated lumens output for DCI mode is only about 10% than THX mode which is a good sign that the LS10000 is not giving up significant lumens to obtain the wider DCI P3 color space.

Art hasn't been back to his home in CA since leaving CEDIA, but hopefully I can catch up with him next week and see if he can confirm what the "lens iris" setting is actually doing (i.e., a real lens iris or just dimming of the lasers). If its a real lens iris then stopping down the iris should have the positive effect of increasing the native contrast ratio, similar to what it does with the JVC projectors.

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post #73 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
This would be good info to see, the 6 point doesn't provide enough info. i'd like to see 25%, 50% & 75% + the color checker
I completely agree. These days most projectors - especially ones selling for $5000+ - are expected to calibrate well. I'm actually a bit surprised that the Epson controls may not be sufficient (I'm assuming) to get the dE even lower across the grayscale and points like 60% and 70%. In my setup I would use a Radiance which most likely could handle this so it is not a concern for me. It would also be quite interesting to see what these readings were in 5% intervals and if there were other rough spots.

Was this calibrated to BT.1886? If so I would have thought the low end of the gamma graph would be sloping up some.

Yes Zombie - the more telling part is how well the saturations track and what the Color Checker SG looks like. THAT is the area where we have seen some brands do relatively poorly while other brands doing quite good.

As a side note it is encouraging to see that pre-calibration all delta L was to the HIGH side - which should mean that an external 3D cube can be used to dial things in without having to lower the overall white point to do so.
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post #74 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
The measurements pre-calibration look better than many projectors in the same price range after calibration.

My only concern is if the light source will only last 5,000 hours. If so, can the light source get replaced for a decent price.
The light source cannot be replaced at all. However, I seriously doubt anyone would get only 5000 hours out of it. Epson specs the lifetime at 30,000 hours in Eco mode, so if we estimate a lifetime of 10,000 hours in the highest-output mode, that's 3.4 years watching 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. If we assume a more reasonable average of 4 hours a day, 365 days a year, that's nearly 7 years in the high-output mode, and more if you can live with Eco mode. How many projector-owning AVS members don't upgrade their projector after 7 years or less? In a recent poll, less than 23% of respondents said they had never replaced their projector in the last 10 years; all others had replaced their projector at least once in that time, and 43% had done it twice or more.
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post #75 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 11:39 PM
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I agree with Zombie and LovingDVD, this is a report that would have been acceptable about 5 years ago, and even then it could have missed glaring issues. Even today, if you calibrate a JVC using the internal CMS to produce a "perfect looking" calibration like this, you have likely made things worse than the uncalibrated standard mode because by dialing the colors at 100% you have made them undersaturated at 75% sat and below.

I really don't understand why calibrators think a report like this is acceptable. Is it incompetence, or is it to hide flaws in the internal controls? When nothing could correct this, I could understand, but now that any 3D LUT even in a radiance mini can address this type of issues, I don't understand why calibrators don't show us a saturation/luminance graph before and especially after calibration. A colorchecker SG is also a good report element.

This is of course not directed against Kevin but honestly this kind of report doesn't say anything about the ability of the internal CMS to do more good than harm to the picture, even if in this case the gamut is so close at 100% sat to start with that the impact of the controls on the other points is likely minimal.

However, this doesn't say anything about the saturation and luminance tracking at other levels, so again it's very incomplete.

This could explain why Scott thought red was a bit strong. It might be on target at 100% (where there is little real material) but oversaturated at 75% sat (where there is a lot more information in actual content).

10 points for gamma is better than nothing, but anyone serious about calibration will use 21 points for the greyscale to reveal potential issues (spikes or dips) so again it's a very limited report.

It looks like it was calibrated to a flat power gamma 2.4 curve (providing the calibration targets would also be useful ). Are there enough controls to target BT1886, which is likely the standard for bluray 4k ?

It looks like there are only a few control points given the high errors in the high end of the greyscale. How many control points? Two, a few bands like on the new JVCs, or 12 like on the old JVCs?

Most these can be corrected with an external VP with a 3D LUT and a good greyscale control set like a Radiance, but it would be nice to know if a Radiance is needed or not. Again, with such a limited report, it's impossible to assess.

Not a personal attack on anyone - and thank you for providing these first elements - but a call to all reviewers and calibrators to raise their game! It's 2014, not 2008!

Last edited by Manni01; 09-20-2014 at 05:05 AM.
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post #76 of 474 Old 09-19-2014, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
The measurements pre-calibration look better than many projectors in the same price range after calibration.

My only concern is if the light source will only last 5,000 hours. If so, can the light source get replaced for a decent price.
The light source cannot be replaced at all. However, I seriously doubt anyone would get only 5000 hours out of it. Epson specs the lifetime at 30,000 hours in Eco mode, so if we estimate a lifetime of 10,000 hours in the highest-output mode, that's 3.4 years watching 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. If we assume a more reasonable average of 4 hours a day, 365 days a year, that's nearly 7 years in the high-output mode, and more if you can live with Eco mode. How many projector-owning AVS members don't upgrade their projector after 7 years or less? In a recent poll, less than 23% of respondents said they had never replaced their projector in the last 10 years; all others had replaced their projector at least once in that time, and 43% had done it twice or more.
I dont see it as a problem if you can run it in eco mode. However if you need the lumens it doesn't look too good imo. I want at least a 1000 lumens. If we consider the starting point 1200 calibrated lumens at d65 and assume a linear decline to 50% brightness in 10000 hour (high power mode) then the projector will drop below 1000 lumens after 3300 h. That is not so long considering you can do nothing to replace the light source. Yes, many here change pj in less than 3000 h, but what about the resale value if you want to be honest and fair to the buyer? If you could change the lasers for 1k or so I would be ok with that, but considering you can't I believe the lifetime is too short in high power mode.
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post #77 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 02:19 AM
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Does the projector have a colour mode like the JVCs that offers very saturated primaries but leaves the skin tones unchanged?
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post #78 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 03:37 AM
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I may have missed it, but I can't find any mention of motion handling, even in Art's review, though that's a long review, and I may have missed it.


That's particularly strange as it's been a main point of debate in recent years.


Anyone?


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post #79 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 06:27 AM
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i may have missed it but i do not read anything about speckle all laser pr. show more or less....
did someone take a close look about it or did someone see it and if so how it looks?
i am very sensitve about this bug but i know most dont care about it as they use screens the show from every pr. speckle
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post #80 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
The light source cannot be replaced at all. However, I seriously doubt anyone would get only 5000 hours out of it. Epson specs the lifetime at 30,000 hours in Eco mode, so if we estimate a lifetime of 10,000 hours in the highest-output mode, that's 3.4 years watching 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. If we assume a more reasonable average of 4 hours a day, 365 days a year, that's nearly 7 years in the high-output mode, and more if you can live with Eco mode. How many projector-owning AVS members don't upgrade their projector after 7 years or less? In a recent poll, less than 23% of respondents said they had never replaced their projector in the last 10 years; all others had replaced their projector at least once in that time, and 43% had done it twice or more.

I believe the middle setting for the laser brightness may be best choice for those heavy users of the LS10000 as it should give you about 20,000 hours of use and at mid-throw distance provide 900+ lumens calibrated in THX mode and probably 800+ lumens in CIE-P3 mode (add about 100 lumens if mounted at the shortest throw distance). This would be bright enough for fairly large screens (but not giant, low gain screens). At 800 lumens and a gain 1.0 screen you could get 16 foot lamberts (perhaps the most recommended brightest for a fully light controlled home theater) with a 130 inch 16 x 9 screen or when using a 2.35:1 screen and the projector zoom method, the screen size would be about 122 inches for 16 ftL.


If you use a larger screen then you have several options including using a higher gain screen (e.g.,, 1.3), using the projector's high mode for the laser brightness, placing the projector at the shortest throw distance possible for your screen size. For example, if you were to use a gain 1.3 screen combined with high laser mode and even with the zoom still at mid-throw, then for 16 ftL you could use a 170 inch 16x9 screen or a 160 inch 2.35:1 scope screen. If one were to use a 160 inch scope screen, then when watching 16x9 programming on this screen the image would size would about 127 inches diagonal. In this case and you could go to down to the middle laser mode (producing 20+ ftL) or even Eco laser mode (producing 15+ ftL) and still have similar image brightness. All of these brightness numbers are for DCI mode, as we anticipate will be used for Blu-ray 4K/UHD discs, and with rec. 709 best mode (e.g., calibrated THX mode) we are talking about perhaps 10% higher brightness as compared to DCI mode.
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post #81 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post
i may have missed it but i do not read anything about speckle all laser pr. show more or less....
did someone take a close look about it or did someone see it and if so how it looks?
i am very sensitve about this bug but i know most dont care about it as they use screens the show from every pr. speckle
Speckle cannot be a issue for the Red and Green primaries with the LS10000 since the laser is only be used to trigger the phosphor to produce the yellow light that is the source for the illumination of these two primary colors. That leaves only Blue that might be subject to speckle, but that is the color where the human eyes are least sensitive and visible speckle does not seem to be an issue even for blue with the LS10000 design.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
I dont see it as a problem if you can run it in eco mode. However if you need the lumens it doesn't look too good imo. I want at least a 1000 lumens. If we consider the starting point 1200 calibrated lumens at d65 and assume a linear decline to 50% brightness in 10000 hour (high power mode) then the projector will drop below 1000 lumens after 3300 h. That is not so long considering you can do nothing to replace the light source. Yes, many here change pj in less than 3000 h, but what about the resale value if you want to be honest and fair to the buyer? If you could change the lasers for 1k or so I would be ok with that, but considering you can't I believe the lifetime is too short in high power mode.

I don't believe the lumens output vs. hours of use will be linear with the laser hybrid light engine used in the LS10000. With lamps their lifetime rating is most usually the 50% light output point. But for laser diodes the rated lifetime is usually the point where the current they draw increases by 20% above the original value. This indicates that the laser will be running hotter and a failure is more likely to occur. The output power (lumens) of the laser remains fairly constant until near the end of its life. So lasers have different dimming and failure characteristics than do lamps. What is unknown (at least to me) is to what extent the light emitted from the phosphor wheel will dim over time. However, I would bet the LS10000 will maintain fairly constant lumens output over most of it life. More info on laser diodes can be found at the following link:
http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/l...ex2_02_02.html


I know that Scott stated above the light source cannot be replaced at all, but I was told by an Epson rep. that the lasers/phosphor wheel are not user replaceable and the projector would have to be sent to Epson to have it serviced in case of a light engine failure.
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post #82 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 06:52 AM
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thanks Ron
yes if the use phosphor than its a no issue and yes blue our eye is less sensitive.




i will go to see a true Barco 3laser 4k dlp in 10 days.
lets hope i can see no speckle......
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post #83 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
The light source cannot be replaced at all. However, I seriously doubt anyone would get only 5000 hours out of it. Epson specs the lifetime at 30,000 hours in Eco mode, so if we estimate a lifetime of 10,000 hours in the highest-output mode, that's 3.4 years watching 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. If we assume a more reasonable average of 4 hours a day, 365 days a year, that's nearly 7 years in the high-output mode, and more if you can live with Eco mode. How many projector-owning AVS members don't upgrade their projector after 7 years or less? In a recent poll, less than 23% of respondents said they had never replaced their projector in the last 10 years; all others had replaced their projector at least once in that time, and 43% had done it twice or more.
Just to be argumentative with you and for no other reason, if somebody built it, any part or module could in fact be replaced if the manufacturer wanted to. If the the two blue lasers failed or the phosphor wheel caught fire and melted, the manufacturer could indeed install a new assembly though the manufacturer most likely would just because just supply a new or b stock projector.


The issue here is what happens when the warranty expires and someone wants to keep using it but the light source dies. One is forced to go to an outside repair service and the issue then becomes the manufacture won't sell us one just because or because it no longer has any spares and is now using some other module which won't fit.

As to your statistics, this would seem to indicate the need to maintain a spare parts etc inventory and repair facilities to keep the cars on the road because most people don't replace them with new models. The statistics do not show the repairs people had to do to keep theirs on the road instead of buying a new one. Projectors are not like a Maytag. Repairs out of warranty are often needed. Lots of people buy warranty extensions but the issue still becomes can you get the part(s).

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post #84 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 10:24 AM
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Solid state light sources improve extinction ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
The light source cannot be replaced at all. However, I seriously doubt anyone would get only 5000 hours out of it. Epson specs the lifetime at 30,000 hours in Eco mode, so if we estimate a lifetime of 10,000 hours in the highest-output mode, that's 3.4 years watching 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. If we assume a more reasonable average of 4 hours a day, 365 days a year, that's nearly 7 years in the high-output mode, and more if you can live with Eco mode. How many projector-owning AVS members don't upgrade their projector after 7 years or less? In a recent poll, less than 23% of respondents said they had never replaced their projector in the last 10 years; all others had replaced their projector at least once in that time, and 43% had done it twice or more.
I usually keep mine for about 10 years and own a sim2 ht380 which is finally showing its age because of it's low lumen output 450 lumens calibrated. Even if you don't like 3d, the interest has forced most manufacturers to increase the light output of the projectors. I was going to buy the sony VW600 this year until the epson came out. A reflective LCD solid state projector with 1500 lumen output is a game changer and the long lifetime of the source is really not the major advantage.

The narrow line width of the blue laser and even the phosphor should give a much better extinction ratio per pixel and increase color purity. You are going to get much higher extinction ratios because the effective bandwidth is less.

The adjustable Iris is much faster and when you change the output power, you do not shift the Plank curve and thus do not change the color calibration

The antireflection coating for the individual color paths should be better because you only have to design for a narrow wavelength band so extinction ratios are much higher

Finally unlike the vw600 they are using a zoom lens without plastic elements so the light scatter which will effect the intra scene contrast should be much less because the surfaces should be smoother and there will be less striation inside the lens. Color correction and resolution should be the same

The fact that you can produce a high output solid state projector at a less than 8000 dollar price point will mean that both Sony and JVC will be producing projectors with these sources next year. Electro-optic rotating polarizing devices just work a lot better with laser light sources.

I will now wait for a true UHD projector with a solid state light source which will probably be introduced at next year's Cedia. At that time a UHD blue ray player should be available
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I was told by Epson that the laser light engine is not replaceable. However, I do assume that it is repairable by Epson technicians if it fails prematurely. I'm sure they meant that it is not designed to be replaced once it reaches the end of its normal lifespan.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
I was told by Epson that the laser light engine is not replaceable. However, I do assume that it is repairable by Epson technicians if it fails prematurely. I'm sure they meant that it is not designed to be replaced once it reaches the end of its normal lifespan.
Is it confirmed that the light engine in "high brightness" mode is rated for 10,000 hours?
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post #87 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 01:34 PM
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Just have to wait and see on the Canadian pricing on the LS10000. From what I saw at CEDIA...take my moneeeeeey!!!!

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[QUOTE=David Susilo;27581882]Just have to wait and see on the Canadian pricing on the LS10000. From what I saw at CEDIA...take my moneeeeeey!!!![/QUOTE

Could you please elaborate? I would assume that your comment is an endorsement of the LS10000.
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post #89 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I agree with Zombie and LovingDVD, this is a report that would have been acceptable about 5 years ago, and even then it could have missed glaring issues. Even today, if you calibrate a JVC using the internal CMS to produce a "perfect looking" calibration like this, you have likely made things worse than the uncalibrated standard mode because by dialing the colors at 100% you have made them undersaturated at 75% sat and below.

I really don't understand why calibrators think a report like this is acceptable. Is it incompetence, or is it to hide flaws in the internal controls? When nothing could correct this, I could understand, but now that any 3D LUT even in a radiance mini can address this type of issues, I don't understand why calibrators don't show us a saturation/luminance graph before and especially after calibration. A colorchecker SG is also a good report element.

This is of course not directed against Kevin but honestly this kind of report doesn't say anything about the ability of the internal CMS to do more good than harm to the picture, even if in this case the gamut is so close at 100% sat to start with that the impact of the controls on the other points is likely minimal.

However, this doesn't say anything about the saturation and luminance tracking at other levels, so again it's very incomplete.

This could explain why Scott thought red was a bit strong. It might be on target at 100% (where there is little real material) but oversaturated at 75% sat (where there is a lot more information in actual content).

10 points for gamma is better than nothing, but anyone serious about calibration will use 21 points for the greyscale to reveal potential issues (spikes or dips) so again it's a very limited report.

It looks like it was calibrated to a flat power gamma 2.4 curve (providing the calibration targets would also be useful ). Are there enough controls to target BT1886, which is likely the standard for bluray 4k ?

It looks like there are only a few control points given the high errors in the high end of the greyscale. How many control points? Two, a few bands like on the new JVCs, or 12 like on the old JVCs?

Most these can be corrected with an external VP with a 3D LUT and a good greyscale control set like a Radiance, but it would be nice to know if a Radiance is needed or not. Again, with such a limited report, it's impossible to assess.

Not a personal attack on anyone - and thank you for providing these first elements - but a call to all reviewers and calibrators to raise their game! It's 2014, not 2008!
Thanks Manni. I thought I read that it was calibrated for BH1886 but I agree that the gamma graph doesn't seem to reflect that. Also an odd bump/dip in the top end from what I remember.

The main thing I took out of the calibration report was that delta L was high on all 6 colors - which is a good thing since it means the colors can be adjusted without lowering the overall white point. It would be great to see how the colors track natively, how well the internal grayscale and CMS controls work, and how well everything calibrates with a Radiance. I know that with my VW95 controls all at neutral and with using the Radiance I have dE's from 5-100% all under 0.5 and all under 1.5 for all colors including inside the cube across the entire ColorChecker SG results. That's extremely tight and I'd want the same out of the Epson.
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post #90 of 474 Old 09-20-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks Manni. I thought I read that it was calibrated for BH1886 but I agree that the gamma graph doesn't seem to reflect that. Also an odd bump/dip in the top end from what I remember.

The main thing I took out of the calibration report was that delta L was high on all 6 colors - which is a good thing since it means the colors can be adjusted without lowering the overall white point. It would be great to see how the colors track natively, how well the internal grayscale and CMS controls work, and how well everything calibrates with a Radiance. I know that with my VW95 controls all at neutral and with using the Radiance I have dE's from 5-100% all under 0.5 and all under 1.5 for all colors including inside the cube across the entire ColorChecker SG results. That's extremely tight and I'd want the same out of the Epson.

Hi Ric,


Unless I missed it, I can't see anywhere the gamma curve target. Scott says the target for the gamut was rec 709, but that doesn't say what the gamma target was.

A 21 steps report for greyscale is needed when targeting BT1886 because the 5% point is the most important one in that case (that's the point where the impact of the black levels of the display on gamma targets have the most significance). There is really no way to assess a BT1886 curve with a 10 point graph/data.


Just to illustrate the point we were trying to make regarding how necessary it is to show how saturations track before/after calibration, I attach three graphs from a JVC rs49 (using my Discus trained to my i1pro2).

On the first graph, you can see how saturations track after setting the white point to D65. It's not perfect, for example if you look at red it's oversaturated at 100% but overall it's only a bit oversaturated at 75% sat and below, so red wouldn't look too bad with actual content using the default profile (standard) untouched, especially after a decent greyscale calibration.

On the second graph, it shows how saturations track using the JVC CMS controls to set red at 100% sat exactly to its rec-709 target (I only tried red because I wanted to check if the CMS was still behaving the usual way on the new models). It looks perfect, but the points at 75% sat and below are significantly undersaturated, which produces a very visibly undersaturated picture. Because there is much more information there than at 100% sat in actual content, a trained eye like Scott would say that this calibration looks undersaturated, and he would be right, even if a report showing only the points at 100% sat would make it look like he was wrong. This could very well have happened with the Epson: 100% was calibrated exactly to the target as shown in Kevin's report, but 75% and/or below could have been oversaturated, which might have caused Scott's impression that red was too strong. If you showed a report of the three calibrations attached below with only the points at 100% sat like in Kevin's report, this would be the most "perfect" looking calibration, yet it would be the one giving the worst results: it's way more undersaturated than the initial one is oversaturated.

On the third graph, it shows how you have to calibrate red at 100% sat to get a decent balance between the various saturation points. It has to be slightly oversaturated at 100% sat so that it's less oversaturated than when left uncorrected, but the other points are not as undersaturated as if you were trying to reach the exact rec-709 target at 100% sat, like in the second graph. In other words, to get a good-looking calibration (by this I mean accurate) using the JVC CMS, you need to get a report which doesn't look perfect at 100% sat.


Sorry for the long-winded post, but I just wanted to illustrate why a report like the one attached above doesn't say if the calibration is good or if the internal controls of the Epson can produce a good calibration or not.


Showing saturations, you can see that while the JVC CMS isn't perfect, you can get a very decent calibration with an imperfect report at 100% (third calibration), or you can get a poor calibration with a perfect-looking report (second), but you can't get both at the same time.


I'd like to know what's the situation with the Epson, if only to know whether it needs an external 3D LUT or not to produce decent results.
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Last edited by Manni01; 09-20-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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