The Official Sony VPL-VW300ES/VW350ES Owners Thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2611 of 2650 Old 03-24-2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Have you tried any of the German custom gamma curves, MadVR or using an Oppo's new HDR to SDR Tone Mapping that preserves BT2020. The Lumagen Radiance Pro can do this the best with its intensity mapping too, but of course it's expensive. I personally think the best upgrade quality wise with the easiest set and tweak time for the money is the Oppo UDP-203, but I would try the German curves first for simplicity's sake.
Thanks, Dave! I already have an Oppo 203, but just learned about the tone mapping settings (which I guess came out of a recent FW update?) the other day. Apparently, I've had the ability to fix my own problem since that update, and I didn't even know it! It's a relief to find, because I am no longer craving an updated projector since I realized tone mapping was an option.

I am using Mode 2 and 300 nits for bright UHD discs (Planet Earth II, Blue Planet II) and Mode 2 and 200 nits for dark ones (Thor:Ragnorak, Wonder Woman). Does anyone else with a 350ES have recommend Oppo 203 HDR settings?

One other question about tone mapping? How do you set it to preserve BT.2020? I thought the projector can only do BT.709. I guess I was wrong on that?

Also, would I see even more improvement with a Radiance Pro in the system? Would it be dramatic? If you think the upgrade would be big, how much work is it to get the Radiance Pro calibrated myself?

Finally, where can I find the numbers for the "German curves?" I know how to calibrate my own custom gammas, but need the target values to do it.

I don't mind spending money if improvements will be big and noticeable.

Thanks!

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post #2612 of 2650 Old 03-24-2018, 09:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post
Thanks, Dave! I already have an Oppo 203, but just learned about the tone mapping settings (which I guess came out of a recent FW update?) the other day. Apparently, I've had the ability to fix my own problem since that update, and I didn't even know it! It's a relief to find, because I am no longer craving an updated projector since I realized tone mapping was an option.



I am using Mode 2 and 300 nits for bright UHD discs (Planet Earth II, Blue Planet II) and Mode 2 and 200 nits for dark ones (Thor:Ragnorak, Wonder Woman). Does anyone else with a 350ES have recommend Oppo 203 HDR settings?



One other question about tone mapping? How do you set it to preserve BT.2020? I thought the projector can only do BT.709. I guess I was wrong on that?



Also, would I see even more improvement with a Radiance Pro in the system? Would it be dramatic? If you think the upgrade would be big, how much work is it to get the Radiance Pro calibrated myself?



Finally, where can I find the numbers for the "German curves?" I know how to calibrate my own custom gammas, but need the target values to do it.



I don't mind spending money if improvements will be big and noticeable.



Thanks!

You're welcome. I'm glad you found out you can use the Oppo better now.

If you have money to throw at this, I would actually recommend you upgrade the projector rather than get a Lumagen. I think you'd see a bigger difference using the current Oppo 203 or German curves on a new, say VW385ES, than a Radiance on your older VW350ES. I haven't messed with a Radiance much at all though, so that's just my opinion. I would ask if anyone else with a 350 has one.

Look in the 285 or 385 threads. I know the German Gamma Curve info is in there. Check the last couple pages as there was a pretty big update to them recently, I think a 2.0 or 2.1 version. I don't have my Sony 885 yet so I haven't messed with the new ones at all.....yet.
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post #2613 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
You're welcome. I'm glad you found out you can use the Oppo better now.

If you have money to throw at this, I would actually recommend you upgrade the projector rather than get a Lumagen. I think you'd see a bigger difference using the current Oppo 203 or German curves on a new, say VW385ES, than a Radiance on your older VW350ES. I haven't messed with a Radiance much at all though, so that's just my opinion. I would ask if anyone else with a 350 has one.

Look in the 285 or 385 threads. I know the German Gamma Curve info is in there. Check the last couple pages as there was a pretty big update to them recently, I think a 2.0 or 2.1 version. I don't have my Sony 885 yet so I haven't messed with the new ones at all.....yet.
I think so too.
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post #2614 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 09:08 AM
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Although I can’t know what I’m missing out on (fortunately), now that I have my UHD discs looking good, I probably will not replace the 350 until I can take the next next big leap forward for about 10K. I will do that when things have really moved ahead, but it’s getting harder and harder to picture huge improvements to the image I’m already seeing. It could be sharper and brighter and more vibrant, but not by a ton. It so often looks jaw dropping now, it feels like it will be a while before the extra dollars seem justified.

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post #2615 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 09:11 AM
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P.S. Does the 350 take BT.2020? Right now I am using the HDR setting of “off BT.709” on my Oppo, but should I be using something else?

I’m also still curious if anyone else with the 350 and an Oppo can share their HDR settings and explain how they chose them.

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post #2616 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post
P.S. Does the 350 take BT.2020? Right now I am using the HDR setting of “off BT.709” on my Oppo, but should I be using something else?

I’m also still curious if anyone else with the 350 and an Oppo can share their HDR settings and explain how they chose them.

I don't think there's a setting for it in the menus if I recall, but it can do a wider gamut than rec709, up to about 84-87% of DCI P3. Right now you may be unnecessarily limiting your colors. I would try HDR Off/BT2020 and see what it gives you. Do you have any way to measure it, even with a cheap Spyder meter or something?
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post #2617 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
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I don't think there's a setting for it in the menus if I recall, but it can do a wider gamut than rec709, up to about 84-87% of DCI P3. Right now you may be unnecessarily limiting your colors. I would try HDR Off/BT2020 and see what it gives you. Do you have any way to measure it, even with a cheap Spyder meter or something?
I have an x-rite i1pro sensor, but I have no way to display any test patterns from a UHD disc. Is there a way to do that?

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post #2618 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 11:16 AM
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I posted in your other thread that it does but you have to spoof the EDID for 2020 and HDR so the player will send that or if there is a force 2020/hdr mode (I can't recall). Then you can use custom curves in the pj.

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P.S. Does the 350 take BT.2020? Right now I am using the HDR setting of “off BT.709” on my Oppo, but should I be using something else?

I’m also still curious if anyone else with the 350 and an Oppo can share their HDR settings and explain how they chose them.
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post #2619 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 11:17 AM
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I have an x-rite i1pro sensor, but I have no way to display any test patterns from a UHD disc. Is there a way to do that?
Download HCFR it's free. However I doubt it can do 85% of P3.

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post #2620 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 11:23 AM
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I think he is saying that he literally can't display UHD/2020 patterns since the 350's edid tells the source that color space does not extend to 2020 or HDR. If you spoof the edid for those changes then the Oppo can certainly send patterns to the pj (I used to do it with my Samsung and the 350ES).

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Download HCFR it's free. However I doubt it can do 85% of P3.
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post #2621 of 2650 Old 03-28-2018, 10:52 PM
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I think he is saying that he literally can't display UHD/2020 patterns since the 350's edid tells the source that color space does not extend to 2020 or HDR. If you spoof the edid for those changes then the Oppo can certainly send patterns to the pj (I used to do it with my Samsung and the 350ES).
Don't you need a video processor in the link to the spoof the EDID? That's what I thought, and I don't have one.

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post #2622 of 2650 Old 03-29-2018, 03:58 AM
 
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I have an x-rite i1pro sensor, but I have no way to display any test patterns from a UHD disc. Is there a way to do that?

You can use any Sony, Columbia pictures, TriStar, or other Sony owned 4K Blu-ray Discs. If you put the disc in and when it gets to the main disc menu you hit 7669 on your Remote, which spells Sony. This will bring up a hidden menu with patterns. Or you can download Ryan Masciola's UHD HDR patterns for about $30. Well worth it!

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Don't you need a video processor in the link to the spoof the EDID? That's what I thought, and I don't have one.

There is a force HDR setting in the Oppo.
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post #2623 of 2650 Old 03-29-2018, 05:32 AM
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Yes, the Vertex, Linker, or Integrals are video processors of a sort but nothing like a Lumagen price-wise.

Otherwise, as Dave points out, you need something that will just force send whatever you tell it to. If the Oppo does that, great. I didn't have the Oppo when I was doing this with the 350ES so I don't know its capability in this area

You are looking for 4k/24p/WCG/10 or 12-bit/4:2:2 max and HDR (or HDR + strip metadata). On the HDR side you just want the player to NOT go into SDR conversion unless you want it to because you will want to use a custom curve.

IIRC the 350ES can't do above 8.9gbps but it would be easy to verify that attempting 4:4:4 10-bit.

There is also an EDID override function in the Linker that I found necessary.

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Don't you need a video processor in the link to the spoof the EDID? That's what I thought, and I don't have one.
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post #2624 of 2650 Old 04-11-2018, 01:18 PM
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Hmmm...

Watching the UHD of Last Jedi, I realized that the Oppo-203 HDR to SDR conversion features, while they have resolved by problem with UHDs looking too dim compared to Blurays, have unacceptably increased my black level. I had to bring my brightness setting on my projector down 3 points (51 to 48) to make space look black again, rather than grey.

Not only is it annoying to have to remember to change brightness when I change formats, but I'm also experiencing some black crush and loss of shadow detail on my UHDs when I bring brightness down to 48.

I guess these are just compromises I have to make for not having an actual HDR projector, and maybe they're small compromises that are worth it to avoid having to upgrade. Or maybe these are compromises everyone makes, even those with an HDR projector, given the current limits of the tech. Still, it makes me feel like a don't have quite the right solution again and that I should carry on the search.

Tiring. Why can't someone just release the prefect projector? ;-)

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post #2625 of 2650 Old 04-11-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
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You can use any Sony, Columbia pictures, TriStar, or other Sony owned 4K Blu-ray Discs. If you put the disc in and when it gets to the main disc menu you hit 7669 on your Remote, which spells Sony. This will bring up a hidden menu with patterns.
Thanks, Dave! I did not know that tip.

The brightness test pattern has descending black levels going down with numbers like 1.0, 0.1, 0.05, etc. To calibrate using this, which level is supposed to be barely visible and which indistinguishable from the lower levels? I'm looking for the equivalent of 17 on a normal test pattern, if you know what I mean.

Does anyone know?

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post #2626 of 2650 Old 04-11-2018, 03:44 PM
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Hmmm...

Watching the UHD of Last Jedi, I realized that the Oppo-203 HDR to SDR conversion features, while they have resolved by problem with UHDs looking too dim compared to Blurays, have unacceptably increased my black level. I had to bring my brightness setting on my projector down 3 points (51 to 48) to make space look black again, rather than grey.
Space actually IS grey in that film, its not actually encoded black.

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post #2627 of 2650 Old 04-11-2018, 09:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JeffNebraska View Post
Hmmm...



Watching the UHD of Last Jedi, I realized that the Oppo-203 HDR to SDR conversion features, while they have resolved by problem with UHDs looking too dim compared to Blurays, have unacceptably increased my black level. I had to bring my brightness setting on my projector down 3 points (51 to 48) to make space look black again, rather than grey.



Not only is it annoying to have to remember to change brightness when I change formats, but I'm also experiencing some black crush and loss of shadow detail on my UHDs when I bring brightness down to 48.



I guess these are just compromises I have to make for not having an actual HDR projector, and maybe they're small compromises that are worth it to avoid having to upgrade. Or maybe these are compromises everyone makes, even those with an HDR projector, given the current limits of the tech. Still, it makes me feel like a don't have quite the right solution again and that I should carry on the search.



Tiring. Why can't someone just release the prefect projector? ;-)


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Space actually IS grey in that film, its not actually encoded black.

I noticed that the Dolby Vision really screwed up the image if you use "Force (no pun intended! ) HDR" on the Oppo. The colors are super overblown and their faces look almost salmon color leaning towards purple. I think what it's doing is forcing the DV signal without converting to HDR10 when you force it. I know my projector was set right because The Revenant right before it was perfect and simply stunning. Maybe there's also an issue with the conversion when doing the tone mapping?

If you have the custom curves loaded, maybe try those and leave the Oppo playing the normal HDR Donal without any forcing or converting?

Do you know what level it's encoded at Javs?
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post #2628 of 2650 Old 04-11-2018, 11:04 PM
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Do you know what level it's encoded at Javs?
Very Raised. Well above that first notch on the scale, which corresponds with at least level 90 or 95!

Level 64 is what black should be!

This movie is crud. The bluray was equally broken.



How to read:

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post #2629 of 2650 Old 04-12-2018, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
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Space actually IS grey in that film, its not actually encoded black.
That's really interesting. Maybe I have less to worry about than I thought.

Turning the brightness down did make space blacker, but maybe I should use other movies to test whether my BR brightness setting of 51 is also right for UHD.

Does anyone know the answer to my other question, regarding what black level should disappear on the Sony UHD test pattern?

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post #2630 of 2650 Old 04-12-2018, 06:59 PM
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That's really interesting. Maybe I have less to worry about than I thought.

Turning the brightness down did make space blacker, but maybe I should use other movies to test whether my BR brightness setting of 51 is also right for UHD.

Does anyone know the answer to my other question, regarding what black level should disappear on the Sony UHD test pattern?
I'm sure your set up is different, but I have brightness set to 48 as standard for BR discs.
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post #2631 of 2650 Old 04-13-2018, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Very Raised. Well above that first notch on the scale, which corresponds with at least level 90 or 95!

Level 64 is what black should be!

This movie is crud. The bluray was equally broken.



How to read:


Thanks for the info and scope shots Javs! I wasn't impressed with this transfer in the least.
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post #2632 of 2650 Old 08-16-2018, 11:47 AM
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I've ordered the new Panasonic 4k DP-UB820 player which can send SD BT 2020 stripped without the use of a 3rd party unit like the Fury. Believing the 300ES can do better than 709 colour space, any suggestions on settings I should use on the PJ? ie: gamma, custom colour....
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post #2633 of 2650 Old 08-27-2018, 08:47 PM
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My 300ES is randomly shutting off. Once last week, and again tonight. Powered up for less than 2hrs when it happens. Any thoughts?
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post #2634 of 2650 Old 08-28-2018, 08:26 AM
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Sony 300ES shutting down randomly

I asked at the 300ES/350ES thread without response. My 300ES pj has twice now (last week & last night) shut down while watching content for no apparent reason. It was on for less than 2 hrs, and there are no flashing warning lights on the unit when this happens. Would appreciate any thoughts in this respect.
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I asked at the 300ES/350ES thread without response. My 300ES pj has twice now (last week & last night) shut down while watching content for no apparent reason. It was on for less than 2 hrs, and there are no flashing warning lights on the unit when this happens. Would appreciate any thoughts in this respect.
Hi,

does this keep happening?

What happens immediately after shutting down? Can you turn it on again?

What's the status light immediately after?
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post #2636 of 2650 Old 08-30-2018, 06:55 AM
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Hi,

does this keep happening?

What happens immediately after shutting down? Can you turn it on again?

What's the status light immediately after?
It doesn't happen always, but twice in the last seven days. I can turn it on right after. There are no flashing status lights. I have in the meantime turned 'stand-by' power off to see if this resolves the issue.
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post #2637 of 2650 Old 08-30-2018, 03:24 PM
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It doesn't happen always, but twice in the last seven days. I can turn it on right after. There are no flashing status lights. I have in the meantime turned 'stand-by' power off to see if this resolves the issue.
Yeah, that's a possibility, although that shouldn't happen while signal is passing, or at least not without a warning on screen. Keep us updated.
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post #2638 of 2650 Old 04-06-2019, 09:14 AM
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Sony VPL - vw350es Software update.

Back on this forum.. Was out for year or so on other projects. Back in love with the theater and Sony 350. I noticed today I have the old software. Version 1.100
Went to sony site and search the Web. I cannot find an update. Strange.. no update in years..

There is no options for HDR? At least on the old software I have still

Thoughts on updates available please and HDR setting even a possibility?

Thanks
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post #2639 of 2650 Old 04-06-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by chicago66 View Post
Back on this forum.. Was out for year or so on other projects. Back in love with the theater and Sony 350. I noticed today I have the old software. Version 1.100
Went to sony site and search the Web. I cannot find an update. Strange.. no update in years..

There is no options for HDR? At least on the old software I have still

Thoughts on updates available please and HDR setting even a possibility?

Thanks
The 300/350es doesn't do HDR and there will be no updates from Sony.
I thought that it may get one because the successor (I think that was the 365es, not sure) had an update to deal with HDR, but when I contacted Sony, they said, "the light engine is totally different in the new models, so the update is not compatible with the 350/300es".

The best you can achieve with it is to convert HDR to SDR with MadVR or the Panasonic UB900.

I replaced my 300es with a JVC RS1000 _ not looking back !

Mine needs a new lamp, so I put that towards the new JVC.

Last edited by JeffR1; 04-06-2019 at 03:00 PM.
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post #2640 of 2650 Old 04-06-2019, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
The 300/350es doesn't do HDR and there will be no updates from Sony.
I thought that it may get one because the successor (I think that was the 365es, not sure) had an update to deal with HDR, but when I contacted Sony, they said, "the light engine is totally different in the new models, so the update is not compatible with the 350/300es".

The best you can achieve with it is to convert HDR to SDR with MadVR or the Panasonic UB900.

I replaced my 300es with a JVC RS1000 _ not looking back !

Mine needs a new lamp, so I put that towards the new JVC.
I know this is the 300ES thread, but since you brought it up, how do you find the color and brightness with the JVC? I had an older JVC e-shift and while the 'deep blacks' were good, the brightness punch was lacking.
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software , sony projector , sony vpl 350 , VPL-VW350ES , VW300ES

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