Epson LS10000 Vs Sony ES350 - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 218 Old 03-03-2015, 08:36 AM
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My bet is a lot of gamma drift especially at the brighter end.
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post #152 of 218 Old 03-03-2015, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
My bet is a lot of gamma drift especially at the brighter end.
Correct. White point and color coordinates also drifting over time. But again - I'm talking about critical color work, like grading feature movies. For the regular viewer it's almost imperceptible.
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post #153 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Another question related to 2.35:1 screen. I have a Dish tv and get lot of foreign movies channel with black bars on top and bottom and we even see lot of movies in HBO, TMC etc with black bars on top and bottom. Are these all 2.35:1 movies playing on a 16:9 tv ? So if I go with 2:35:1 screen all these movies channel will fill the scope screen on its own or I will see black bars on all four sides similar to a 2:35:1 blue ray disc and then have to zoom or use an external lens to fill the screen ?
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post #154 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyguy View Post
Another question related to 2.35:1 screen. I have a Dish tv and get lot of foreign movies channel with black bars on top and bottom and we even see lot of movies in HBO, TMC etc with black bars on top and bottom. Are these all 2.35:1 movies playing on a 16:9 tv ? So if I go with 2:35:1 screen all these movies channel will fill the scope screen on its own or I will see black bars on all four sides similar to a 2:35:1 blue ray disc and then have to zoom or use an external lens to fill the screen ?
Yes, for a 2:35 screen you'll have to zoom 2:35 movies to fill the screen or use a lens and video processor.

I'm not sure what you mean by black bars on all 4 sides of a 2:35 Blu movie though. I've seen some analog cable stations show this or non anamorphic DVDs that are not zoomed on a 16x9 display.
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post #155 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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See the pic attached. This is one movie playing on one of the TV channel and you see the top and bottom black bars. Is this a 2.35:1 movie as its not filling the the tv screen ? So if I have a 2.35:1 screen will this movie fill the entire scope screen without zooming or using an external lens ?
OR this will play like a 16:9 movie but no black bars on top / bottom and black pillars on the sides.

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post #156 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 04:16 PM
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It depends on how your zoom is set now. If you are zoomed to exactly fill the width of your 2.35 screen, you screen should not be showing the black bars. The bars are still there (thank god for those who might need a drink after reading this discourse) but will be on the wall behind the screen. Of course if you don't rezoom for a 16/9 image, the top and bottom of that image like the black bars will be on the wall. If you need help, spare the rest and call me.

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post #157 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyguy View Post
See the pic attached. This is one movie playing on one of the TV channel and you see the top and bottom black bars. Is this a 2.35:1 movie as its not filling the the tv screen ? So if I have a 2.35:1 screen will this movie fill the entire scope screen without zooming or using an external lens ?
OR this will play like a 16:9 movie but no black bars on top / bottom and black pillars on the sides.

Attachment 583889
If you are not using an A-lens, then you have to use zoom to go back and forth from 2.35 to 16:9 on a 2.35 screen. The projector can only throw a 16:9 image. For a scope movie, you enlarge the image until it fills the width and height of the screen. When throwing a 16:9 image onto the 2.35 screen, you reduce the size of the image until it fits to the top and bottom of the screen. That will leave un-used screen on the right and left sides of the screen.
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post #158 of 218 Old 03-04-2015, 06:03 PM
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An a lens is a lens you put in front of your projector to avoid zooming. Good ones are not cheap. Electronically you stretch the picture vertically to fill the chip. Tall and skinny but no black bars. Then the a lens stretches things horizontal to make the geometry correct. for normal 16/9 you remove the A lens, do not stretch the image electronically, and have unused screen on either end.
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post #159 of 218 Old 03-05-2015, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyguy View Post
See the pic attached. This is one movie playing on one of the TV channel and you see the top and bottom black bars. Is this a 2.35:1 movie as its not filling the the tv screen ? So if I have a 2.35:1 screen will this movie fill the entire scope screen without zooming or using an external lens ?
OR this will play like a 16:9 movie but no black bars on top / bottom and black pillars on the sides.

[iurl="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=583889&d=1425513504"][/iurl]
I think your aspect ratio setting on your tv or box is wrong. That looks like a 16:9 image that has been squeezed vertically. If that is the case you should be able to remove the black bars on the tv.
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post #160 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 12:50 PM
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I just saw a review of the Epson LS10000 projector and its comparison to the sony projector on projectorreviews.com. Although they game the ls10000 a glowing review, they did say the image was "rougher" on the epson compared to the sony. Anyone that has seen the two, that can confirm this? I am just curious as how they compare image wise.
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post #161 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
I just saw a review of the Epson LS10000 projector and its comparison to the sony projector on projectorreviews.com. Although they game the ls10000 a glowing review, they did say the image was "rougher" on the epson compared to the sony. Anyone that has seen the two, that can confirm this? I am just curious as how they compare image wise.
I have seen both, but not at the same time. I saw the Epson at CEDIA and was not that impressed.
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post #162 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 01:24 PM
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I get the impression that the Sony produces a more "natural" looking image even if its blacks are not as good. I've even heard the Sonys look a tad more natural than the JVCs.
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post #163 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I have seen both, but not at the same time. I saw the Epson at CEDIA and was not that impressed.
You know, I have tried to like epson for a long time. Since the earlier UB projector like the 8700. As much as the specs were exactly what i wanted, (high lumens, great price, great warranty) I just couldn't get used to the image. I bought one years ago from a local dealer and didn't particularly like it, and i returned it. Just my personal opinion. I am sure that there are quite a few who do like the image Epson throws. I know that they have gotten much better, but i saw a 6030 and still didn't like the image compared to the sony's or JVC models. I was really hoping the new laser Epson would finally get me to make the jump to Epson. I've talked to a few people who say they weren't all that impressed with the image. They didn't say it was bad, they were just expecting more. Just seeing if others here have the same opinion. Then again, it would be wise for me to actually see it first hand before i make any assumptions. I've learned the hard way not to buy anything without first demoing it.
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post #164 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I have seen both, but not at the same time. I saw the Epson at CEDIA and was not that impressed.
I wasn't either, but felt like maybe it could be chalked up to the presenter deciding to turn up the sharpening controls for the show. I didn't notice the same issue on the production unit I saw (other than when higher processing levels were shown in order to present how much they mess with the images) and from these short times with each would take an LS10000 over a VW600 for my own needs and preferences not taking price into account at all.

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post #165 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver700 View Post
I just saw a review of the Epson LS10000 projector and its comparison to the sony projector on projectorreviews.com. Although they game the ls10000 a glowing review, they did say the image was "rougher" on the epson compared to the sony. Anyone that has seen the two, that can confirm this? I am just curious as how they compare image wise.
Projector central has their own side by side - I found it informative and based on what I value I feel good about my choice (Sony).
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post #166 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 05:39 PM
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Let's define the reviewing term "relative degree of roughness" used as a descriptor of picture quality. Please excuse the roughness of this post, I need to define it more tightly through editorial polishing.
gamest likes this.
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post #167 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 06:32 PM
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Maybe a better descriptor would be the relative degree of crudeness. The picture looked cruder though that might be that it was projected on a screen that had a higher degree of roughness. This post is smoother than my previous one.

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post #168 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 06:41 PM
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I wasn't either, but felt like maybe it could be chalked up to the presenter deciding to turn up the sharpening controls for the show. I didn't notice the same issue on the production unit I saw (other than when higher processing levels were shown in order to present how much they mess with the images) and from these short times with each would take an LS10000 over a VW600 for my own needs and preferences not taking price into account at all.

--Darin
I trust Darin and Chris's eyes! , however I will have the opportunity to view both the 350 and ls1000 in my room in a few weeks
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post #169 of 218 Old 03-06-2015, 06:51 PM
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I trust Darin and Chris's eyes! , however I will have the opportunity to view both the 350 and ls1000 in my room in a few weeks
The perfect way to decide for yourself...
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post #170 of 218 Old 03-07-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I wasn't either, but felt like maybe it could be chalked up to the presenter deciding to turn up the sharpening controls for the show. I didn't notice the same issue on the production unit I saw (other than when higher processing levels were shown in order to present how much they mess with the images) and from these short times with each would take an LS10000 over a VW600 for my own needs and preferences not taking price into account at all.

--Darin
Darin,


Based on your experience with the Shootout you did with Kris, did the Epson have the same natural, film-like image of say the Sony or JVC?
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post #171 of 218 Old 03-07-2015, 11:27 AM
 
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I'd like to know if Darin would rather own the Epson LS10000 or a current generation JVC like Kris's X700?
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post #172 of 218 Old 03-14-2015, 09:57 AM
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So was this comparison ever "resolved"? Was there ever a clear winner, or will you just have some who like the look Epson projectors put out vs. those who just like the look Sony puts out? I has a chance to see the Epson and on live (concert) material, it looked really good. But I saw two movies (pirates of the carribean 2, star trek- latest one) the image Epson put out was kind of grainy, it didn't look as good or as bright as the sony. They were both calibrated( they were both at a reputable AV company) but I just thought the Sony put out a better picture when it came to movies. Blacks looked good on the Epson, better than Sony, but not a huge difference to my eyes. Then again I am not a professional "opinioner" like most here in the forum. I guess the argument with projectors will boil down to which look you prefer.
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post #173 of 218 Old 03-14-2015, 10:02 AM
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The "clear winner" will depend on what you value more, check this comparison as it summarizes well strengths and weaknesses:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...ny-vw350es.htm
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post #174 of 218 Old 03-14-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Darin,

Based on your experience with the Shootout you did with Kris, did the Epson have the same natural, film-like image of say the Sony or JVC?
I didn't feel like I spent enough time with it (or focus on the right things in the time I had) to make a good judgement there.
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I'd like to know if Darin would rather own the Epson LS10000 or a current generation JVC like Kris's X700?
I would like to spend more time with the Epson to make a better judgement, but at the moment if cost were not considered at all I would probably lean a little toward the JVC in that case for my setups. I would like to have a better idea of things like the frame interpolation on the Epson and how I would like its feature to blackout on all black images, but not really dim the laser on other images, while watching more content. I might prefer that over the JVCs dynamic iris partially because of the complete blackout capability, but I don't know.

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post #175 of 218 Old 03-19-2015, 07:07 AM
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From my sources, as I understand the are not selling it yet, I've seen some demos on youtube but that's nothing, can anyone having JVC X projectors compare with that one?
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post #176 of 218 Old 03-19-2015, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I have seen both, but not at the same time. I saw the Epson at CEDIA and was not that impressed.


Not impressed compared to the Sony or just not impressed at all? Was the picture just not what you expected from a laser projector?
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post #177 of 218 Old 03-19-2015, 04:39 PM
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Not impressed compared to the Sony or just not impressed at all? Was the picture just not what you expected from a laser projector?
Here are Kris Deering's hands on impressions of the LS10000 using his JVC X700 as the reference:

"Epson: Really an outstanding projector in every way. Far more impressed with this one than I was expecting. We set it up on a portable table directly under my X700 like I do for all comparisons. Focus was outstanding in the center of the image but focus uniformity wasn't quite as good as my JVC across the screen. Don't know how much of this was because of the setup but I didn't want to spend tons of time trying to line everything up perfectly. I didn't see any real image distortion in setup so I think it was pretty parallel to the screen surface overall. Using the pattern I always use for focus on the AVS 709 disc it actually focused tighter than my JVC does in the very center and better than 99% of projectors I've ever done this with. Focus toward the edges fell off quite a bit though but still maintain the structure quite well. Overall a VERY sharp image. The main caveat here is the sharpness settings. I was not impressed with their settings at all. Projectors should use 0 as off and anything above that is adding processing. Unfortunately that is not the case here. The range would go below zero which would make the image VERY soft but in the advanced sharpness settings trying to find the point where no sharpening was being applied but also no smearing was VERY difficult. I spent quite awhile on this. I ended up abandoning the advanced settings and going with the standard in the 0 position, which still looked a tad too processed for my tastes. All of this was done in the 1080p mode, no upshifting.

Calibration was next. I wanted to match my X700 with an 1886 gamma and 14.5 fL on my screen (120" ST100). Since there are NO profiles with meters for laser based displays I profiled the Klein K-10a to my i1pro spectra. I didn't have a higher end spectra on hand. It looked like most of the out of box settings were very close but I was seeing some disturbing inconsistencies in measurements so I don't know how much to trust them. If I would read a grayscale series it would be nearly perfect only to re-read it immediately again and it would be all over the place. I saw this a lot with grayscale but not nearly as much with color. Color points tracked really well for REC709 as did saturation levels. Luminance levels were not nearly as good through the mid ranges with deltas in the 3-5 range overall. So it could benefit from a color processor for that but overall deltas for color were below 3 for all colors. I ended up using the Eco mode with the manual iris in -4 to achieve 14.5 fL so this projector is considerably brighter than my JVC. In normal mode with iris completely open I measured 29 fL. I didn't get the chance to measure full white with the high mode. The high mode was a bit louder than the other modes but probably on par with the JVC. Slightly different pitch to it. You probably wouldn't hear it at all with any content playing but with the room quiet it was easy to hear. I think we've become a bit jaded in this department though.

The dynamic contrast mode that modulates the laser goes to truly full black (as in off). But once there was any other content it would jump quickly to its more native black level. It doesn't seem to modulate whites (opening or closing credits) so you see a more raised black floor than you would from the JVC using its dynamic iris. But in lower APL scenes it threw a respectable black level. I used the opening of Pacific Rim with the star field and the interrogation in Oblivion for comparisons. I thought the JVC did a bit better with its iris in giving you nice dark blacks but still respectable highlights. The Epson was VERY close though most of the time. Far better than I saw from the Sony's last year with these same clips. I would actually recommend using the light mode or just no dynamic contrast at all given the native contrast performance. The light mode didn't jump as fast to pure black so it may not stick out as much. There was still some obvious clipping issues with Tom Cruise in the back and forth sequence on Oblivion and I think it was a bit worse than the JVC but only a little. Shadow detail was excellent though."
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post #178 of 218 Old 03-19-2015, 04:39 PM
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I think the question is not precise. The replacement for the bulb is light primarily from filtering the light from a spinning yellow phosphor wheel excited by a laser and blue light from a small laser. To me a laser projector is one providing R,G and B light all provided directly by lasers. The Epson must be evaluated on how it treats the light after it is created The light source on the Epson certainly has many advantages over a bulb source but it boils down to the rest and how the rest performs. I think Mike expected more performance wise. I wasn't blown away from watching it demoed in a store but certainly it is decent and worthy of consideration in its price class.

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post #179 of 218 Old 03-24-2015, 06:15 PM
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more confused now than ever. . Lots of good info. was a little confused.. but isn't the Epson a 4k native? Perhaps this newbie missed something in the read.
Also, there was talk about replacing the bulb to reset the brightness factors. With the Epson is there no option to replace a part to reset.. Not knowing the workings of the unit but is there a part in the Epson that would allow for brightness to be brought back to original levels?
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post #180 of 218 Old 03-24-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chicago66 View Post
more confused now than ever. . Lots of good info. was a little confused.. but isn't the Epson a 4k native? Perhaps this newbie missed something in the read.
Also, there was talk about replacing the bulb to reset the brightness factors. With the Epson is there no option to replace a part to reset.. Not knowing the workings of the unit but is there a part in the Epson that would allow for brightness to be brought back to original levels?
No, Epson is not a 4K projector. It uses Epson's version of E-shift up conversion. We have never been told if the light source can be replaced after the warranty period ends.
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