Presentation I gave last week to ICDM group at SID about CR with front projection - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
And here I was reading all of this stuff thinking that Home Theater projectors were made of super parts and pieces and could do anything a billion times better than the commercial units, only to have you tell me it only has 300:1 ANSI, that is 1000:1 lower than a bad DCP of a 2K B-movie horror flick.
You still seem to be confused about what each of these types of CRs is. You won't get anything like 1300:1 ANSI CR from a print. Maybe 1300:1 sequential CR, but that is a completely different matter.

Even if you could get 1300:1 ANSI CR from a DLP projector the blacks would be pretty limited for many scenes if it can only do 2000:1 sequential CR to go with 1300:1 ANSI CR. Plus, you aren't going to get that kind of ANSI CR off the screen in real rooms, as largely acknowledged by what the DCI specs have for ANSI CR minimums.

The DCI specs for the projected images are 2000:1 minimum sequential CR and 150:1 minimum ANSI CR, so the JVCs exceed that ANSI CR. The DCI numbers are on page 66 here:

http://www.dcimovies.com/archives/sp...em_Spec_v1.pdf

Their tolerance levels for review rooms and theatrical call for least 100:1 system ANSI CR.

--Darin
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post #92 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 12:56 AM
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This guys head is actually about to pop up in china now he has dug himself a hole so far. This is getting past the point of hilarious and approaching sadness.
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post #93 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
THX is not any standard, it is a recommendation. In the days that THX was in the commercial cinema, after approving the reference levels and other criteria were met, they let the owner have a plaque over the cinema entrance that had the THX "certification" I have thrown plenty of those away. THX first appeared in theaters, in which their logo would show before the start of a film. Since THX was originally created for motion picture quality, the very first film to show THX was Return of the Jedi, in its theatrical debut on May 25, 1983. From there, THX began to appear before all movies from July 1, 1983, until August 30, 1997, when THX was no longer classified as a "motion picture sound system". At that point, THX had certified VHS/home video releases (as well as Laserdisc at the same time, and later DVDs, after 1998) beginning in 1995. Prior to September 1, 1997, no longer being known as a "sound system", THX was removed from all theaters.

The THX standard, reference volume level 6.5. That will take care of that A/C and squeaky wooden seats.

And here I was reading all of this stuff thinking that Home Theater projectors were made of super parts and pieces and could do anything a billion times better than the commercial units, only to have you tell me it only has 300:1 ANSI, that is 1000:1 lower than a bad DCP of a 2K B-movie horror flick.

Just thought I would point out your plagiarism yet AGAIN from Wikipedia.

Stop quoting wikipedia to us if you are unable to construct your very own sentences.

Observe from the THX Wiki page:

THX first appeared in theaters, in which their logo would show before the start of a film. Since THX was originally created for motion picture quality, the very first film to show THX was Return of the Jedi, in its theatrical debut on May 25, 1983. From there, THX began to appear before all movies from July 1, 1983, until August 30, 1997, when THX was no longer classified as a "motion picture sound system". At that point, THX had certified VHS/home video releases (as well as Laserdisc at the same time, and later DVDs, after 1998) beginning in 1995. Prior to September 1, 1997, no longer being known as a "sound system", THX was removed from all theaters, with the exception for a couple of trailers that THX had then-recently created (such as its own mascot, Tex the Robot) in 1996, would vaguely be seen in theaters. Also, in 2000, based on the long-lasting "Broadway" trailer, a new trailer called "Broadway 2000" could be seen in theaters and DVDs.
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post #94 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
You still seem to be confused about what each of these types of CRs is. You won't get anything like 1300:1 ANSI CR from a print. Maybe 1300:1 sequential CR, but that is a completely different matter.

Even if you could get 1300:1 ANSI CR from a DLP projector the blacks would be pretty limited for many scenes if it can only do 2000:1 sequential CR to go with 1300:1 ANSI CR. Plus, you aren't going to get that kind of ANSI CR off the screen in real rooms, as largely acknowledged by what the DCI specs have for ANSI CR minimums.

The DCI specs for the projected images are 2000:1 minimum sequential CR and 150:1 minimum ANSI CR, so the JVCs exceed that ANSI CR. The DCI numbers are on page 66 here:

http://www.dcimovies.com/archives/sp...em_Spec_v1.pdf

Their tolerance levels for review rooms and theatrical call for least 100:1 system ANSI CR.

--Darin
That link is for version 1, been around since 2005, many updates and 1.2 is current since October 2012, with about a dozen or so errata's. The whole idea of DCI was to have the same, but not worse than film in the digital. Contrast number is hard to put on film as it is chemical exposed, so technically it is infinite to what your eye sees. MGM and Tri-Star were the ones who balked and balked to get the 2000:1 minimum sequential CR and 150:1 minimum ANSI CR in there. Ironically MGM Studios left DCI soon after and Tri-Star went along with parent company Sony Studios and that was over with, and it has just been there. Formatting of the DCI DCP information is done under SMPTE Digital Cinema Standards.

Anyways they are absolute minimums, all the 4K and lots of the older 2K projectors well exceed those minimums.

Where back to square one. If LCOS or D-ILA was better than DLP, they would be used. For every Sony 4K SXRD projector sold, there is 9 DLP equipped projectors sold. The last Sony I had in service was replaced by a Barco DLP.

On that same link look at table 11 on page 67, namely Transfer Function and Color Accuracy. You never see those listed for a consumer projector as DVD/Blu-ray does not support Gamma 2.6. Everyone like to think it is all the same, it is not. The transfer from DCPM to Disk(DVD/Blu-Ray) looses a lot of things that simply do not work on consumer products, plus HDCP is added and a lot of the DCPM algorithms and no compatible with it.

A projected black image is always the hardest to do. You have a white light trying to be projected black or you have RGB trying to be projected black. One of the consumer screen company came out with a black screen. I was ok. Since the screen was black it did great black levels, sorry 3D and OK for light scenes. The one thing it lost, was the natural contrast ratio of a white screen lowering the contrast of the projected image. Nobody ever thinks of screen contrast as any important number, but it is.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #95 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Just thought I would point out your plagiarism yet AGAIN from Wikipedia.

Stop quoting wikipedia to us if you are unable to construct your very own sentences.

Observe from the THX Wiki page:

THX first appeared in theaters, in which their logo would show before the start of a film. Since THX was originally created for motion picture quality, the very first film to show THX was Return of the Jedi, in its theatrical debut on May 25, 1983. From there, THX began to appear before all movies from July 1, 1983, until August 30, 1997, when THX was no longer classified as a "motion picture sound system". At that point, THX had certified VHS/home video releases (as well as Laserdisc at the same time, and later DVDs, after 1998) beginning in 1995. Prior to September 1, 1997, no longer being known as a "sound system", THX was removed from all theaters, with the exception for a couple of trailers that THX had then-recently created (such as its own mascot, Tex the Robot) in 1996, would vaguely be seen in theaters. Also, in 2000, based on the long-lasting "Broadway" trailer, a new trailer called "Broadway 2000" could be seen in theaters and DVDs.
Why type what everyone should know. I mean you are an experienced installer. Aren't you?

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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I think it is time to stop feeding this guy now as he is clearly not competent. He might be an installer, but he does not know the basics about video.

He is ignoring all questions and using copy/paste from different internet sites to answer some. A person actually saying 6000:1 ANSI contrast in combination with projection (even 1300:1 is waay to much) should be ignored.
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post #97 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
THX is not any standard,
I don't think you know what the term "standard" means. THX is a "standard." It produced as set of standards that a movie theater must reach to achieve THX certification. That's what a "standard" is.


Oh wait, you actually got it right for a moment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
The THX standard, reference volume level 6.5. That will take care of that A/C and squeaky wooden seats.
See that word in there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
And here I was reading all of this stuff thinking that Home Theater projectors were made of super parts and pieces and could do anything a billion times better than the commercial units, only to have you tell me it only has 300:1 ANSI, that is 1000:1 lower than a bad DCP of a 2K B-movie horror flick.
Aaaaaand...you ignore all the relevant info again to take an ignorant pot shot at the JVC projectors.

Pasting the same controversial and wrong claims over and over, ignoring every bit of relevant argument and evidence against your position, copy-pasting walls of text...these are all habits of a troll. Don't be a troll.
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post #98 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I think it is time to stop feeding this guy now as he is clearly not competent. He might be an installer, but he does not know the basics about video.

He is ignoring all questions and using copy/paste from different internet sites to answer some. A person actually saying 6000:1 ANSI contrast in combination with projection (even 1300:1 is waay to much) should be ignored.
This is probably the first time I would ever say such a thing, but I think this guy's friends are actually better off getting their AV information from the nearest Best Buy salesman. I've heard some naive and wrong stuff come out of a Best Buy Salesmen, but never THIS much ignorance reliably wrong information on virtually every subject.
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post #99 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 10:58 AM
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ARRIS Group fellow Dr. Sean McCarthy said it best at the Hollywood SMPTE Technology Conference and Exhibition last year, he said that, while it may be tempting to consider resolution, luminance, color gamut, and frame rate as separate and distinct, the human visual system doesn’t and, therefore, they need to be considered as integrated features.

“Everything is integrated in the human experience, and it all comes together,” he said. “We need more research on luminance and how the brain invents color, because that is what our brains do.”

What does this have to do with contrast? Everything.

Understanding contrast actually requires one to be a chemist, an optometrist, an MD and Optics. No joke.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/colo...chromacontrast
adaptation, anchoring & contrast

http://rit-mcsl.org/fairchild/PDFs/AppearanceLec.pdf

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~majumder/vispercep/mehdi.pdf

https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-...-contrast.html
More for paper printing and document rendering, but still contrast related.

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~majumder/vispercep/mehdi.pdf

http://facweb.cs.depaul.edu/sgrais/color_context.htm

http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/ar...K%20Effect.pdf
Lightness—
The Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf
An older document, but it is still written by Mark D. Fairchild

https://books.google.com/books?id=Jq...Effect&f=false
Not the whole book, it is a must have book, sorry no e-copies paper only. This does cover the Bezold-Brucke Hue shift, Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect, Hunt effect, Stevens effect among many others.

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/education/out...-Fairchild.pdf

http://petapixel.com/2012/11/17/the-...the-human-eye/

http://www.aoa.org/patients-and-publ...yes-work?sso=y

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/rods-and-cones

http://colorusage.arc.nasa.gov/luminance_cont.php
What is a reading list without NASA?

No, I am not spending all my rainy Saturday sitting at my desk writing about the differences in contrast, or being asked for equations that are meaningless to me. If you want to know the links above will get you there. Not a one of them is "speculation" they are facts taught in colleges and universities around the world and written by the experts. There is no debating them, to do so would be like debating Albert Einstein on relativity.

Though the numbers system does do some things justice and allow a measure of performance. There is no easy one for display standards. When you do start to comprehend what the very meaning of "to see" really means, it takes the edge off the numbers on the side of the box, making them less attractive and more lucrative.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #100 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
This is probably the first time I would ever say such a thing, but I think this guy's friends are actually better off getting their AV information from the nearest Best Buy salesman. I've heard some naive and wrong stuff come out of a Best Buy Salesmen, but never THIS much ignorance reliably wrong information on virtually every subject.
I wished Best Buy had Christie 6P projectors and Barco media servers, along with, why bother you can't see any of that stuff in your "specially darkened" home theater room. Does your room with the light off get darker than my room with the light off? Maybe you have a way to measure special darkness that applies to your room. What kind of contrast do you get in a dark room?

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #101 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I wished Best Buy had Christie 6P projectors and Barco media servers, along with, why bother you can't see any of that stuff in your "specially darkened" home theater room. Does your room with the light off get darker than my room with the light off? Maybe you have a way to measure special darkness that applies to your room. What kind of contrast do you get in a dark room?
I don't know if your room is darker. But judging from your lack of knowledge about projector image contrast, it's my hunch that..yes...my room is more optimized to retain image contrast from a projector.

My room is darker and less reflective than any commercial movie theater. It's almost entirely covered in black velvet for movie playback, making it maximally non-reflective, and preserving intra-scene contrast. You've already been given the actual, measurable contrast numbers available with JVC projectors over, and over, and over. Go look at them again. And notice they are vastly higher (that's native contrast...remember) than any commercial cinema can achieve, excepting the very latest laser-driven HDR commercial projectors.

"Maybe you have a way to measure special darkness that applies to your room. "
Actually, in the sense that is actually relevant to projection, yes you can measure how dark your room stays in the presence of a projected image. You can measure the reflectivity of the room for one thing. One of the ways you can do this is by measuring the contrast differences of the actual projected image on the screen after adding room treatment.

Given you had earlier advised actually keeping dim lights on for watching projected images, it seems you just have no understanding of any of this...and likely will never actually see the potential of a good projector unless someone else more knowledgeable demonstrates it to you.

The fact is, we JVC owners can enjoy contrast at home far exceeding what the majority of commercial cinemas can produce. The fact that these JVC projectors cost several thousand dollars, and that to exceed their native contrast ratio you have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the most state of the art, massive commercial cinema projector (HDR), makes the JVCs an astounding bargain for the home user.
If you use a projector at home that isn't a JVC, presuming you don't personally own a commercial HDR laser projector, we can know for certain that your projected image falls short of the JVC's contrast. You won't know it, of course.

Here's where I become an authentic Nostradamus: you will ignore anything of relevance in this post, and reply with something irrelevant.
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post #102 of 194 Old 09-10-2016, 03:20 PM
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Here's where I become an authentic Nostradamus: you will ignore anything of relevance in this post, and reply with something irrelevant.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #104 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 09:42 AM
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Well, I figure this is pertinent to the theme of this thread:

Last night I attended a premier of a film at TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival, which takes over our city at this time each year).
It was premiered in a newly renovated theater (Bloor Hot Docs) with a new Digital projector (they also run 35mm) and an excellent new sound system. (It's a slow burn spooky story that takes place in a single isolated house, with lots of space for nuance and detail in the sound design. I did Sound Design for this movie and it was gratifying to be able to hear all the detail I'd fretted about putting in - every pipe tick, floor creak, rain drop on a window, or supernatural presence, etc came through).

The film is really beautifully shot, with a gorgeous naturalistic yet subtle soft lighting, and of course being a spooky film, many scenes in a darkened house. It's always something to be familiar with a lower quality pre-grade version of the film (that we sound folks work with) and to finally see the finished graded product, which really blooms into life.

And fortunately this movie theater takes the movie experience and image quality seriously. First, it's nice and non-reflective, employs a masking system for various ARs, and completely dims all lights (save exit signs, which seemed placed so as not to light up the screen at all).

The theater had been upgraded a few years ago to deploying a Christie CP2220 3-chip 2K DLP projector. Specs here:

https://www.christiedigital.com/en-u...nema-Projector

Nominal Brightness: 22,000 lumens
Contrast Ratio: 2,100:1 full field/on off

The specs don't give ANSI, but from what I've read it seems 650:1 ANSI contrast would be in the likely ball park for this type of projector.

The film looked quite beautiful in bright scenes and some mixed scenes so long as there were some very bright objects - e.g. sunlight through a window lighting up one portion of the image.

But man oh man, when it came to the many darker scenes, especially dim low APL scenes, of which there are many...what a bummer.
In this beautifully darkened theater, when the character is sitting in her bed surrounded by the dark room, all you get is washed out gray - utterly unconvincing dark areas and a lack of depth. The image in bright scenes is convincing and fluid, but becomes flat, low contrast and artificial just when you want it to be most convincing in a movie like this. As the woman in the movie investigates all the dark corners of the house, I kept feeling really let down by this presentation: instead of feeling like we are roaming the darkness with her, we are made most aware of the limitations of the delivery system.

This is what you get when you only have a 2,100:1 contrast ratio available: believable bright scenes, flat, grayish, low contrast dark scenes.
The low contrast of such cinema projectors is clearly a "bug" and not a "feature." That is, it's a technical limitation and any there is little doubt if richer, deeper, more believable dark scenes were possible, the film maker wouldn't say "nah, I prefer to stick with this washed out looking contrast instead."

The disappointment no doubt comes from living with the type of contrast we enjoy from our home theater projectors, mine being the JVC RS600. I'm used to such higher contrast and deeper black levels. In a pitch black room, when a character in a spooky movie is moving through a dark house, it is DARK, like I'm there in the room with the person trying to see in the room: I'm staring into the dark corner of a room, rather than staring at gray light projected on a flat screen. And it truly enhances the experience.

When I got home I threw on various dark movies and other content on my RS600. Bright scenes looked just as bright and punchy IMO
as those in the cinema, so any ANSI contrast advantage in the Christie image wasn't particularly obvious or missed. But when it came to any mixed or dark scenes the difference was just absurd compared to the images on the Christie projector. The RS600 images were in another ballpark in terms of punchiness, contrast, depth of black levels, and just sheer realism. One may as well have been comparing a new OLED with a 90's LCD screen. No contest at all.

We really are spoiled with the contrast in our home projection. And that's how I like it. :-)
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post #105 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Well, I figure this is pertinent to the theme of this thread:

Last night I attended a premier of a film at TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival, which takes over our city at this time each year).
It was premiered in a newly renovated theater (Bloor Hot Docs) with a new Digital projector (they also run 35mm) and an excellent new sound system. (It's a slow burn spooky story that takes place in a single isolated house, with lots of space for nuance and detail in the sound design. I did Sound Design for this movie and it was gratifying to be able to hear all the detail I'd fretted about putting in - every pipe tick, floor creak, rain drop on a window, or supernatural presence, etc came through).

The film is really beautifully shot, with a gorgeous naturalistic yet subtle soft lighting, and of course being a spooky film, many scenes in a darkened house. It's always something to be familiar with a lower quality pre-grade version of the film (that we sound folks work with) and to finally see the finished graded product, which really blooms into life.

And fortunately this movie theater takes the movie experience and image quality seriously. First, it's nice and non-reflective, employs a masking system for various ARs, and completely dims all lights (save exit signs, which seemed placed so as not to light up the screen at all).

The theater had been upgraded a few years ago to deploying a Christie CP2220 3-chip 2K DLP projector. Specs here:

https://www.christiedigital.com/en-u...nema-Projector

Nominal Brightness: 22,000 lumens
Contrast Ratio: 2,100:1 full field/on off

The specs don't give ANSI, but from what I've read it seems 650:1 ANSI contrast would be in the likely ball park for this type of projector.

The film looked quite beautiful in bright scenes and some mixed scenes so long as there were some very bright objects - e.g. sunlight through a window lighting up one portion of the image.

But man oh man, when it came to the many darker scenes, especially dim low APL scenes, of which there are many...what a bummer.
In this beautifully darkened theater, when the character is sitting in her bed surrounded by the dark room, all you get is washed out gray - utterly unconvincing dark areas and a lack of depth. The image in bright scenes is convincing and fluid, but becomes flat, low contrast and artificial just when you want it to be most convincing in a movie like this. As the woman in the movie investigates all the dark corners of the house, I kept feeling really let down by this presentation: instead of feeling like we are roaming the darkness with her, we are made most aware of the limitations of the delivery system.

This is what you get when you only have a 2,100:1 contrast ratio available: believable bright scenes, flat, grayish, low contrast dark scenes.
The low contrast of such cinema projectors is clearly a "bug" and not a "feature." That is, it's a technical limitation and any there is little doubt if richer, deeper, more believable dark scenes were possible, the film maker wouldn't say "nah, I prefer to stick with this washed out looking contrast instead."

The disappointment no doubt comes from living with the type of contrast we enjoy from our home theater projectors, mine being the JVC RS600. I'm used to such higher contrast and deeper black levels. In a pitch black room, when a character in a spooky movie is moving through a dark house, it is DARK, like I'm there in the room with the person trying to see in the room: I'm staring into the dark corner of a room, rather than staring at gray light projected on a flat screen. And it truly enhances the experience.

When I got home I threw on various dark movies and other content on my RS600. Bright scenes looked just as bright and punchy IMO
as those in the cinema, so any ANSI contrast advantage in the Christie image wasn't particularly obvious or missed. But when it came to any mixed or dark scenes the difference was just absurd compared to the images on the Christie projector. The RS600 images were in another ballpark in terms of punchiness, contrast, depth of black levels, and just sheer realism. One may as well have been comparing a new OLED with a 90's LCD screen. No contest at all.

We really are spoiled with the contrast in our home projection. And that's how I like it. :-)
What was the content source and aspect ratio? Was it screened before hand? Who did the post work?

I have my suspensions.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Well, I figure this is pertinent to the theme of this thread:

Last night I attended a premier of a film at TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival, which takes over our city at this time each year).
It was premiered in a newly renovated theater (Bloor Hot Docs) with a new Digital projector (they also run 35mm) and an excellent new sound system. (It's a slow burn spooky story that takes place in a single isolated house, with lots of space for nuance and detail in the sound design. I did Sound Design for this movie and it was gratifying to be able to hear all the detail I'd fretted about putting in - every pipe tick, floor creak, rain drop on a window, or supernatural presence, etc came through).

The film is really beautifully shot, with a gorgeous naturalistic yet subtle soft lighting, and of course being a spooky film, many scenes in a darkened house. It's always something to be familiar with a lower quality pre-grade version of the film (that we sound folks work with) and to finally see the finished graded product, which really blooms into life.

And fortunately this movie theater takes the movie experience and image quality seriously. First, it's nice and non-reflective, employs a masking system for various ARs, and completely dims all lights (save exit signs, which seemed placed so as not to light up the screen at all).

The theater had been upgraded a few years ago to deploying a Christie CP2220 3-chip 2K DLP projector. Specs here:

https://www.christiedigital.com/en-u...nema-Projector

Nominal Brightness: 22,000 lumens
Contrast Ratio: 2,100:1 full field/on off

The specs don't give ANSI, but from what I've read it seems 650:1 ANSI contrast would be in the likely ball park for this type of projector.

The film looked quite beautiful in bright scenes and some mixed scenes so long as there were some very bright objects - e.g. sunlight through a window lighting up one portion of the image.

But man oh man, when it came to the many darker scenes, especially dim low APL scenes, of which there are many...what a bummer.
In this beautifully darkened theater, when the character is sitting in her bed surrounded by the dark room, all you get is washed out gray - utterly unconvincing dark areas and a lack of depth. The image in bright scenes is convincing and fluid, but becomes flat, low contrast and artificial just when you want it to be most convincing in a movie like this. As the woman in the movie investigates all the dark corners of the house, I kept feeling really let down by this presentation: instead of feeling like we are roaming the darkness with her, we are made most aware of the limitations of the delivery system.

This is what you get when you only have a 2,100:1 contrast ratio available: believable bright scenes, flat, grayish, low contrast dark scenes.
The low contrast of such cinema projectors is clearly a "bug" and not a "feature." That is, it's a technical limitation and any there is little doubt if richer, deeper, more believable dark scenes were possible, the film maker wouldn't say "nah, I prefer to stick with this washed out looking contrast instead."

The disappointment no doubt comes from living with the type of contrast we enjoy from our home theater projectors, mine being the JVC RS600. I'm used to such higher contrast and deeper black levels. In a pitch black room, when a character in a spooky movie is moving through a dark house, it is DARK, like I'm there in the room with the person trying to see in the room: I'm staring into the dark corner of a room, rather than staring at gray light projected on a flat screen. And it truly enhances the experience.

When I got home I threw on various dark movies and other content on my RS600. Bright scenes looked just as bright and punchy IMO
as those in the cinema, so any ANSI contrast advantage in the Christie image wasn't particularly obvious or missed. But when it came to any mixed or dark scenes the difference was just absurd compared to the images on the Christie projector. The RS600 images were in another ballpark in terms of punchiness, contrast, depth of black levels, and just sheer realism. One may as well have been comparing a new OLED with a 90's LCD screen. No contest at all.

We really are spoiled with the contrast in our home projection. And that's how I like it. :-)
Great ANSI contrast means nothing when you have really poor on/off like these cinema machines.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Great ANSI contrast means nothing when you have really poor on/off like these cinema machines.
ha-ha How many directors have released their babies to play on a JVC projector. NONE!

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
What was the content source and aspect ratio? Was it screened before hand? Who did the post work?
What's the point? What do you think you would actually be competent to discern that would change the outcome? We are talking about the difference in contrast ratio capabilities of these projectors.

You seem fond of Christie. Here is a paper from the Christie.com site discussing contrast ratio performance:

https://www.christiedigital.com/Tech...e-Be-Light.pdf

It discusses both ANSI and full field on/off contrast ratio. It explains the benefits of good ANSI contrast and ALSO goes on to talk about the importance of higher on/off contrast:

-------------------------
"While ANSI CR provides a measure of the contrast performance for
data images, it is also important for continuous-tone video images.
Nevertheless, such images are affected to a much greater extent
by a projector’s full-field CR performance. The reason is that the
bright area of most video scenes is considerably smaller than the
bright area of the ANSI test pattern (which is 50% of the image).
Hence, the contrast performance achieved during a typical movie,
for example, will be better than the ANSI CR would indicate most of
the time and will approach the full-field CR for very dark scenes.
Generally speaking, a higher full-field CR will yield a deeper black
level at a given peak brightness. As black levels get deeper, images
get noticeably better, especially video images. Color saturation, in
particular, improves greatly and the images are often described as
having more “punch”

---------------------------

That, right from the mouth of Christie projection, is exactly what Darren (and I and others) have been explaining to you all along.
Aside from the few, new HDR projectors, the typical DLP Cinema projector has decent ANSI contrast but far lower full-field CR than many home theater projectors, the JVCs especially. To compare the Christie projector I saw last night to the JVC is to compare a DLP with a meager 2,100:1 max full field CR vs a JVC display that can (measurably!) produce over 60 times that contrast ratio (120,000:1 and beyond). The results are just as described by the Christie paper, and predictable to anyone who knows anything about the effects of higher full-field contrast ratio on images. And the inability of professional DLP projectors to match the richness of picture contrast of a JVC has been consistent with every other DLP cinema projection I've seen (which includes both many commercial cinemas and some of the best post production houses).

Notice too, btw, the paper linked to above goes on to saythe obvious:
"However, a high contrast image can easily be robbed of its high
contrast if ambient light is allowed to fall on the screen. In the case
of front-screen projection even a small amount of light will reduce
the contrast significantly."

Yet you'd previously advised keeping some ambient light on in a room used for projected images.
(
Which is one reason I hope you aren't actually advising anyone else about how to set up their home theater systems).

Finally, you wanted to know the aspect ratio of the movie projected last night. (It was 1:85:1). What do you imagine makes that relevant to the question of contrast? Changing the aspect ratio won't budge the meager 2,100:1 full field CR capability of a Cinema DLP projector.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I have my suspensions.
Why am I not surprised? Perhaps you'll end up with one for this forum as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
ha-ha How many directors have released their babies to play on a JVC projector. NONE!
This moronic comment misses the point of the discussion: This is a home theater forum. We care about the performance of consumer products for home theaters. We don't need to light up gigantic commercial cinema screens so it's stupid as hell to mock home cinema projectors on the grounds they are not the type of machines to produce the 22,000 lumens (or so) that Comercial projectors require.

It's not that commercial projectors are "better because they put out way more light." That would be ignorant. It's that commercial projectors NEED to put out vastly more light in order not to have a dim image on a giant screen. But the REQUIREMENT for that super high light output, like everything in this world, has it's own COMPROMISES and one of those is that it's hard to design for super high light output AND very high contrast in projection. This is why the full field contrast capabilities of commercial DLPs is so low. It's not "designed' to be low contrast...it's an engineering LIMITATION on the contrast available for commercial cinemas.

Fortunately, since we don't have to light up gigantic screens in our houses, we get to take advantage of the fact that home theater projectors can be designed for far higher native contrast performance. In other words, the home theater projection/screen combination that produces the SAME ON SCREEN image brightness of a good commercial cinema, can also produce FAR HIGHER CONTRAST RATIO and thus the richer black levels and punchier, more realistic image.

Exactly what I get when I compare the image I can achieve at home with a JVC projector, compared to commercial projected images.

It is frankly mind boggling that this point has to be explained to anyone claiming to know anything about projectors and contrast.
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Last edited by R Harkness; 09-11-2016 at 02:07 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
What's the point? What do you think you would actually be competent to discern that would change the outcome? We are talking about the difference in contrast ratio capabilities of these projectors.

You seem fond of Christie. Here is a paper from the Christie.com site discussing contrast ratio performance:

https://www.christiedigital.com/Tech...e-Be-Light.pdf

It discusses both ANSI and full field on/off contrast ratio. It explains the benefits of good ANSI contrast and ALSO goes on to talk about the importance of higher on/off contrast:

-------------------------
"While ANSI CR provides a measure of the contrast performance for
data images, it is also important for continuous-tone video images.
Nevertheless, such images are affected to a much greater extent
by a projector’s full-field CR performance. The reason is that the
bright area of most video scenes is considerably smaller than the
bright area of the ANSI test pattern (which is 50% of the image).
Hence, the contrast performance achieved during a typical movie,
for example, will be better than the ANSI CR would indicate most of
the time and will approach the full-field CR for very dark scenes.
Generally speaking, a higher full-field CR will yield a deeper black
level at a given peak brightness. As black levels get deeper, images
get noticeably better, especially video images. Color saturation, in
particular, improves greatly and the images are often described as
having more “punch”

---------------------------

That, right from the mouth of Christie projection, is exactly what Darren (and I and others) have been explaining to you all along.
Aside from the few, new HDR projectors, the typical DLP Cinema projector has decent ANSI contrast but far lower full-field CR than many home theater projectors, the JVCs especially. To compare the Christie projector I saw last night to the JVC is to compare a DLP with a meager 2,100:1 max full field CR vs a JVC display that can (measurably!) produce over 60 times that contrast ratio (120,000:1 and beyond). The results are just as described by the Christie paper, and predictable to anyone who knows anything about the effects of higher full-field contrast ratio on images. And the inability of professional DLP projectors to match the richness of picture contrast of a JVC has been consistent with every other DLP cinema projection I've seen (which includes both many commercial cinemas and some of the best post production houses).

Notice too, btw, the paper linked to above goes on to saythe obvious:
"However, a high contrast image can easily be robbed of its high
contrast if ambient light is allowed to fall on the screen. In the case
of front-screen projection even a small amount of light will reduce
the contrast significantly."

Yet you'd previously advised keeping some ambient light on in a room used for projected images.
(
Which is one reason I hope you aren't actually advising anyone else about how to set up their home theater systems).

Finally, you wanted to know the aspect ratio of the movie projected last night. (It was 1:85:1). What do you imagine makes that relevant to the question of contrast? Changing the aspect ratio won't budge the meager 2,100:1 full field CR capability of a Cinema DLP projector.





Why am I not surprised? Perhaps you'll end up with one for this forum as well.
You left this out, from Christie,
For this reason the ANSI CR measurement is usually considerably
lower than the full-field number for a given projector. However, it
is the "true measure" of the quality and contrast performance of the
projector’s entire optical system.
To the eye a high ANSI CR image typically looks clearer and sharper
than an image with a lower ANSI CR. This is because the perceived
sharpness of an image is greatly affected by the contrast ratio
between adjacent pixels, which typically increases with higher ANSI
CR values.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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Good point, I bet Michael Bay has a far better grasp of this than you.
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post #113 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
You left this out, from Christie,
For this reason the ANSI CR measurement is usually considerably
lower than the full-field number for a given projector. However, it
is the "true measure" of the quality and contrast performance of the
projector’s entire optical system.
To the eye a high ANSI CR image typically looks clearer and sharper
than an image with a lower ANSI CR. This is because the perceived
sharpness of an image is greatly affected by the contrast ratio
between adjacent pixels, which typically increases with higher ANSI
CR values.
And your point? (presuming you even have one)

If you had a choice of a projector with 600:1 ANSI and 2000:1 sequential contrast or a projector with 600:1 ANSI and 20,000:1 sequential contrast which one would you pick?
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Trolls are so predictable. When I referenced that paper I knew without a shadow of a doubt CinemaAndy would latch on to those paragraphs as a way to simply ignore the rest of the paper and anything else I wrote.
Some people seem to derive a perverse pleasure out of playing the fool in public, the person who chooses to sit on the dunking machine with "I dare ya!" written on his baseball cap. But sometimes it's worth tossing the ball and dunking the clown several times if, in the process, we can disseminate better information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
You left this out, from Christie,
For this reason the ANSI CR measurement is usually considerably
lower than the full-field number for a given projector. However, it
is the "true measure" of the quality and contrast performance of the
projector’s entire optical system.
To the eye a high ANSI CR image typically looks clearer and sharper
than an image with a lower ANSI CR. This is because the perceived
sharpness of an image is greatly affected by the contrast ratio
between adjacent pixels, which typically increases with higher ANSI
CR values.

Of course, I didn't ignore it: I said the paper discusses the benefits of ANSI but then goes on to explain it's limitations and the importance of full field contrast ratio. Remember? The paper says: ""While ANSI CR provides a measure of the contrast performance for
data images, it is also important for continuous-tone video images.
Nevertheless, such images are affected to a much greater extent
by a projector’s full-field CR performance.



What do you think that means, Andy?

It's saying higher ANSI contrast can be perceived as producing a sharper image and that is a good thing, all other things being equal, but if you start throwing in Full Field contrast, then large differences in Full Field contrast start to dominate picture quality. The parts of the paper I posted and you ignored explains to you WHY THAT IS THE CASE.

It explains that the patterns used to determine ANSI contrast are NOT REPRESENTATIVE of the typical contrast spread in regular video images. Very often, in scenes that mix very dark with some bright objects, there is much more distance between the bright and dark areas than there is in an ANSI pattern. Hence the wash out effect of the bright area on the dark area of the image is much reduced and the darker area can remain dark - darker than you'd get in the ANSI pattern and therefore taking more advantage of a projectors native full field contrast.

So for instance if you have someone outside in the dark and there is a bright moon in the night sky, the projector with the higher on/off native contrast ratio performance will dominate, not the one with the slightly higher ANSI contrast. The contrast of the moon against the dark sky will be greater (the night sky can go darker black against the bright moon for higher contrast), and the expanded dynamic range of the native contrast also will allow better contrast and more detail in the dimly lit person moving in the shot. In other words, just richer, better image quality, especially needed for darker or mixed bright/dark images.

If you measured 650:1 ANSI contrast on the Christie projector and 300:1 ANSI contrast on the JVC projector, and thought that would predict the Christie produces a higher contrast image in the image described above (or many other movie images) you'd have gotten it all wrong, because you have igored
the influence of full field contrast on such images, where the JVC would actually produce the higher contrast image. You'd know this if you JUST TRIED TO UNDERSTAND what that Christie paper was telling you, rather than dodging anything in it that contradicted your current beliefs, just to see whatever
part you can lift that looks to you like it would contradict what I am saying.

So Andy, why is it you have ignored pertinent parts of that paper: the parts that would actually educate you as to why you have gotten contrast so wrong?

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Trolls are so predictable.
Pal, I think I have had about enough of your name calling. You need to fix your attitude. If you can't make intelligent posts without securitization and condemnation, you shouldn't be posting at all.

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Bold/Color added 6-23-16
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #117 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 07:55 PM
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Well, that's pretty much the definition of irony.
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post #118 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 09:37 PM
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^^ Yep.

We obviously aren't going to change certain people's attitude, but when someone insists on continually posting misinformation, the responses, especially by the more technically astute forum members like Darinp, can be educational.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing a good HDR cinema projector to see decent black levels in the cinema!
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post #119 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
^^ Yep.

We obviously aren't going to change certain people's attitude, but when someone insists on continually posting misinformation, the responses, especially by the more technically astute forum members like Darinp, can be educational.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing a good HDR cinema projector to see decent black levels in the cinema!
It is not an attitude, it is a standard. On/Off is only used on a test pattern on the initial set up, and anything that involves repairs or maintenance to the light engine, or the projector is moved. ANSI CR is the standard they are graded by, the final number will be differentiated by the content that is being played through the projector. And if that standard gives your little black box a low number, buy something else. A DCI projector is reading a still jpeg2000 image 23.7, 24.0, 35.0, 48.0 times a second. Your projector is reading mpeg4, 3 or 2 depending on the quality of the company who distributed it to disk. There is no way your moving Mpeg image will be better than a still jpeg2000 image, just not going to happen no matter how hard you try to make it happen. Not matter the ups or downs scaling your picture you will always have motion blur present, it will not be present in a single jpeg2000, but can appear if desired.

Take a CR reading, whatever one you like, of your projector with a high-quality test screen, google it, no not JVC's it's garbage, and use a "real Spectroradiometer" like this one, http://www.photoresearch.com/content...ctroradiometer , not one of the "toy" ones i keep seeing and reading about on here. And no, an OLED, LCD, CRT and projected image IS NOT the same and requires different approaches to calibration and different tools to do that calibration with. And I think you will be disappointed.

Now to address your lame comment about light on the screen during a feature presentation. Any ambient light will affect the contrast of a projected image, to a degree. There is a reason a DCI projector uses 10,000 plus lumen lamps, and it is not just to light up a 25 to 100-foot screen, it is to be the BRIGHTEST on the screen. I have never been in any theater with lights shining on the screen during the feature, not one. And if you have noticed, probably not, all overhead lights are pointed 10 degrees TOWARDS the rear of the auditorium, same with the walkway lighting. Same with the wall light sconces, they project the light at 90 degrees up and down, and no light directly right or left of it. As to my other statement, if a 3-watt nightlamp is too overpowering for your projector, buy a better one.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.

Some servers can do non-encrypted playback to an A/V projector, but it's just a ridiculously expensive media player if you don't have a cinema projector.
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post #120 of 194 Old 09-11-2016, 11:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post

Take a CR reading, whatever one you like, of your projector with a high-quality test screen, google it, no not JVC's it's garbage, and use a "real Spectroradiometer" like this one, http://www.photoresearch.com/content...ctroradiometer , not one of the "toy" ones i keep seeing and reading about on here. And no, an OLED, LCD, CRT and projected image IS NOT the same and requires different approaches to calibration and different tools to do that calibration with. And I think you will be disappointed.
Do you even know what pro calibrators use a Spectroradiometer for?? I use a Jeti 1501 spectro and it is one of the best in the business, but all spectroradiometers are very slow when reading near black, so can you answer what we use the spectroradiometer for??
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