JVC at CEDIA 2015 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Out of curiosity, how do you route audio in that case?
Directly from the source(s) to the pre-pro as I'm still using toslink (1.5mbit core, not lossless). Eventually I'll upgrade...

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post #122 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'll do a comparison with my Lumis to compare motion too. I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to install the RS600 and my VW600 and my Lumis permanently, in a 3 projector stack ! I just might be able to do it................

Permanently? No projector is ever permanent. Please edit you post to remove the word ''permanently".
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post #123 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 07:54 PM
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Preorder - How do you preorder a JVC?

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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
FYI, AVS's preorder prices are ridiculously GOOD.

I was all set to go for the middle RS500, but I'm actually considering the top RS600 based on the price difference.

If you're at all interested in these, call Mike or Craig. Don't snooze and loose.
Hi - How do you preorder a JVC (I am in Canada) but could pick up at one of my US offices. (Who are Mike and Craig?)

Thanks,

D.
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post #124 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:04 PM
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Well spoke with Mike this afternoon and if all works out decided to take the plunge. Have never had a JVC. Thought about upgrading last year but decided to wait and see what this year brings. Approaching my 4th year with an Epson 6010. Have a Sony Ruby and Dwin HD700 sitting in the corner of the basement from days gone by. Strongly considered the Sony's but decided to go with RS600. All the projectors have been rock solid hope JVC continues the trend. May eventually go 2.35/2.40 but baby steps first....
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post #125 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ddo89 View Post
Hi - How do you preorder a JVC (I am in Canada) but could pick up at one of my US offices. (Who are Mike and Craig?)

Thanks,

D.
Ahhh, the US/Canada exchange rate is just ridiculous. Am still on course to get one though.
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post #126 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ddo89 View Post
Hi - How do you preorder a JVC (I am in Canada) but could pick up at one of my US offices. (Who are Mike and Craig?)

Thanks,

D.
Craig and Mike both work for AVS. Very knowledgeable and helpful!

Craig Peer
585-671-2972
[email protected]

Mike Garrett
585-671-2968
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post #127 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Ahhh, the US/Canada exchange rate is just ridiculous. Am still on course to get one though.
Yup, freakin' insane right now. Makes that time of parity with the USD seem like a passing dream. A tale to tell our kids: "Son, let me tell you about a magical moment in the past...."

Dreams over. Back to ol' times as a Canadian...
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post #128 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
The new JVC projectors were the best new affordable projectors at Cedia 2015 in our opinion. Here is what we saw –


RS400 – 2 year warranty. 1700 lumens. It was being shown both on a 10’ wide Screen Innovations 1.4 gain Black Diamond screen with ambient light ( on high lamp I believe – plenty bright ) and in a dark room on a 9’ wide Stewart StudioTek 100. Same light engine as previous models.


RS500 – 3 year warranty. 1800 lumens. This was being shown on a 10’ wide Stewart StudioTek 130 G3 screen. New light engine and new wire grid polarizer. P3 filter for DCI color space.


RS600 – 5 year warranty ! 1900 lumens. This was being shownon a 14’ wide Stewart StudioTek 130 G3 screen. Plenty bright on low lamp. New light engine and new wire grid polarizer. P3 filter for DCI color space. Hand selected components, hand selected lens.

All the new projectors will do HDR. JVC says the ANSI contrast has been improved on all three models.


HDMI sync is now much improved / stronger over the previous models. New lamps with up to 4500 hours rating ( low lamp setting ). 1 year warranty on lamps. HDMI 2 is switch-able back to HDMI 1.3 for better compatibility with legacy sources.
Motion Flow works with 4K sources, as does Vertical Stretch.


Auto Calibration - the software from JVC is downloadable andyou have to use a Spyder 4. With that you can do autocal without having to usea video processor.

I thought these projectors looked fantastic. JVC really listened to their customers. In the past the biggest complaint with JVC projectors has been “ we wish they were brighter “. Well, they are now roughly twice as bright as before. We looked for bright corners and streaking on the RS600 – didn’t see any issues with either of those problems on the engineering sample at Cedia. Motion looked better to me. E Shift 4 looks better IMO too. They are stated to be no louder than last year’s models, despite being twice as bright. The RS600 didn’t sound any louder to me, and I tried to hear as best as I could in the demo rooms ( difficult ). I'm looking forward to getting a demo unit ( RS600 ) for my theater soon !! I'll be putting it up against my Lumis and my VW600 !




Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
That is the first time I have heard mention of improved ANSI contrast on the new models. I'm very excited to see this as that is the attribute I have wanted JVC to improve the most. I hope Cine4home will also be reviewing the top 2 models to test the ANSI contrast so we will know how much it has been improved.

Mike
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The new wire grid polarizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
This makes sense then as to why cine4home didn't get a higher ANSI contrast on the RS500/X5000 as it doesn't have this new wire grid polarizer. Did they mention any numbers? I think past 450:1, unless you have a GREAT room, is superfluous. They mentioned the lens being the same throw, but is the quality of the glass any better? Different coatings? I'm just curious as to why they switched to a new manufacturer. JVC already had some pretty excellent lens quality.

If JVC can deliver Sony like motion performance with it's UHD DiLA panel, I think JVC will have THE ultimate projector until we see a dual DLP DMD light engine to deliver crazy high contrast. But that feels like it's long off. On top of the feature set these top tier units bring this year combined with UHD panels and better motion performance I just don't see how it can get any better. Solid state light source? All I know is that Sony must be shaking in their boots. I really think JVC caught them off their guard this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Just a minor note regarding the JVC's ANSI contrast.

I just noticed that Cine4home did actually get a bit higher ANSI contrast for the new X5000, vs last year's X500.

250:1 for the X500
300:1 for the X5000

Not much, and I know JVC ANSI tends to hover around those numbers generally, but just thought I'd mention it.
And as discussed earlier, it seems there is potential for the middle/higher models to do better with ANSI.

Speaking of Cine4home, it would be great if they could at some point measure all three models, to indicate the type of real-world performance differences you might get with the top "selected parts" version.
Yes - I too originally missed the 300:1 ANSI CR that cine4home measured. Actually I think that's a good size bump up and glad to see the progress. I wonder if that was measured with the iris fully closed or fully opened (assuming) because that makes a difference. It will be interesting to see if the RS500 or RS600 measures higher.
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post #129 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
HDR10 (the mandatory layer) is mastered to 1000nits, while Dolby Vision is mastered to 4000nits.

My understanding is that all UHD Blurays are required to handle HDR10 as a base layer, and that other formats (Dolby Vision, Philips, Tehcnicolor) can extend this if additional compatibility. But as far as I understand it, a title mastered in Dolby Vision should be playable on an HDR10 compatible display like the upcoming Sony or JVC projectors.

Clearly for projector more than 1000nits doesn't make any difference (especially in a dedicated room), so I would not expect the lack of Dolby Vision compatibility to be an issue.

All this needs clarifying and at the moment I haven't got the information I requested regarding how the new Sony and JVC models were handling HDR content. Mike posted recently that he had got some information, so hopefully this will be posted somewhere.
I requested info, but have not gotten an answer yet.
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post #130 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ddo89 View Post
Hi - How do you preorder a JVC (I am in Canada) but could pick up at one of my US offices. (Who are Mike and Craig?)

Thanks,

D.
Here.
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post #131 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
All this needs clarifying and at the moment I haven't got the information I requested regarding how the new Sony and JVC models were handling HDR content.
Not sure how they had it for the show, but I liked JVC's answer as far as the controls. They have a default curve, but since they don't know our screen size or gain they give us control. Menu controls I saw were still enabled in HDR mode and people can hook up a PC and set their own curve.

Not sure if that was what you were getting at though. As far as I know the only HDR JVC was showing in their professional area was stuff they shot, so that would have had a fair amount of control of it.

--Darin
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post #132 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Yes - I too originally missed the 300:1 ANSI CR that cine4home measured. Actually I think that's a good size bump up and glad to see the progress. I wonder if that was measured with the iris fully closed or fully opened (assuming) because that makes a difference. It will be interesting to see if the RS500 or RS600 measures higher.
The RS400 doesn't have the new light engine only a brighter lamp so that is probably the reason for the small 50:1 bump in ANSI contrast. The top 2 models(RS500 & RS600) with the new light engine are the ones(as told to Mike & Craig at JVC booth) that will have the improved ANSI contrast so im hoping will be measured at least 450:1 or higher.
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post #133 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
The RS400 doesn't have the new light engine only a brighter lamp so that is probably the reason for the small 50:1 bump in ANSI contrast. The top 2 models(RS500 & RS600) with the new light engine are the ones(as told to Mike & Craig at JVC booth) that will have the improved ANSI contrast so im hoping will be measured at least 450:1 or higher.
I'll hope with you, but with the same chassis and the changes mentioned I would be pretty surprised if we saw anything like that. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised.

--Darin
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post #134 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I'll hope with you, but with the same chassis and the changes mentioned I would be pretty surprised if we saw anything like that. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised.

--Darin
Agreed. I'd be pretty happy even with 300:1, which is still low IMO but high compared to where JVC has been historically.
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post #135 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 09:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Agreed. I'd be pretty happy even with 300:1, which is still low IMO but high compared to where JVC has been historically.
300:1 is about the same as the Xx00 series measured.
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I'm shooting for the moon. I want 450:1.
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post #137 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
300:1 is about the same as the Xx00 series measured.
Yesterday (I think it was) you mentioned that you spent 5 hours viewing the X5000 vs X500 and would post detailed impressions soon. Well, we're waiting...
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post #138 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
I'm shooting for the moon. I want 450:1.
Well, unfortunately then it looks like you will be going with a Sony.
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post #139 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Well, unfortunately then it looks like you will be going with a Sony.
I really was all set to buy a Sony this fall but the lack of P3 support and the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI along with the price for what you get vs. what JVC is offering(brightness should equal Sony 665 or maybe brighter, Full P3 support, 18 Gb/s HDMI, native contrast) I've pretty much decided JVC makes more sense and I'll save money for full spec 4K projector several years from now. I had a JVC X700 and really liked it but I just wished it was brighter and had a higher ANSI contrast. Well, brightness solved. ANSI contrast to be determined.

Mike
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post #140 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:20 PM
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The pre-order pricing is out. How come I haven't received a call? I should be top of the list!

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #141 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:21 PM
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The pre-order pricing is out. How come I haven't received a call? I should be top of the list!
Because Saturday night, you told me that you would call me.
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Yesterday (I think it was) you mentioned that you spent 5 hours viewing the X5000 vs X500 and would post detailed impressions soon. Well, we're waiting...

I did not measure anything then, but I might get the cance to borrow a sample (the same I tested a couple of days ago) this weekend and I will get back with more info then. I will not get accurate ANSI contrast numbers thoug only a comparison to the X500 in the same room.


The X5000 is a much brighter projector than the X500 and it will be a nice upgrade for people with a big screen, it also looks like it has small improvements in E-shift and CMD. But I must do a more serious test to confirm this and the lamp in the 5000 has to settle in a bit as it had 0 hours on it when I started and 5 when I quit last time. If I get a chance this weekend it will have more hours and I will calibrate it and use a eeColor and compare it side by side with a calibrated X500 with eeColor and take measurements with my Klein K10A and post the results here. So I will get on/off readings, difference in ANSI but not accurate numbers, brightness differences, and report as good as I can other differences I can see.
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post #143 of 1526 Old 10-20-2015, 10:51 PM
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Looking forward to your more detailed impressions Andreas.

Are you interested in trying to get reasonably accurate ANSI CR numbers? If so, here is one technique I have used. Take a black board, cover with black velvet for best results or no velvet because it is easier, cut a small rectangle slight off center and toward one corner, then block all but the center of one rectangle at a time when doing ANSI CR measurements.

This cuts down on the amount of light that gets into the room and causes low ANSI CR just from the room.

This is easiest with 2 people so one can move the board.

--Darin
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I might try that Darin.
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post #145 of 1526 Old 10-21-2015, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
As far as I know, this is not true. Dolby Vision is a proprietary, end-to-end system that must be licensed from Dolby, so an HDR10-compatible display will not be able to reproduce a DV-encoded signal unless it also has DV decoding. Likewise, a DV display will not be able to decode HDR10 unless it has both; for example, the Vizio Reference will not decode HDR10, only DV.

Also, HDR10 is required for UHD Blu-ray, while DV and Philips HDR are optional, but they are not "extensions" of HDR10 (at least, DV is not; I don't know about Philips). As far as I know, Technicolor HDR is not included as optional in the UHD BD spec.

It's important to understand that HDR10 and Dolby Vision are not interoperable, nor is one an extension of the other; they are mutually exclusive. I see this as a big problem for HDR going forward.
Thanks for this Scott. I do know that DV is a proprietary system, but my understanding was that every title had to support the mandatory HDR layer (HDR10) and could extend beyond that with proprietary extensions, like DV, Philips, etc. In other words, that every HDR display could display the HDR10 part (mastered to 1000nits) but only displays with a proprietary extension (DV, Philips, etc) could go further than that. I was seeing this as similar to a DTS HD track: every one can play the DTS core (HDR10) but you can only play the HD extension if you have the specific capability (DV, Philips, etc).

If it's not the case and if HDR10 is only mandatory at player level, then I agree this is a huge issue going forward, depending on how this is dealt with during playback. Does this mean that DV title will be played in SDR if the display doesn't support DV?
Also does it really mean that an HDR10 title would also play in SDR on a display that only supports DV? I thought HDR10 was mandatory, so how could a display or player support DV (or another proprietary format) but not HDR10?

I'm totally ready to accept that I was wrong (in which case this industry is mad, which isn't a surprise), but please could you double check this with your contacts and confirm what a non DV compatible display does when the player plays a DV title? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The question is, what does "Mandatory" mean, if it means every UHD BD has to have HDR10, then I don't see it as a big problem, any disk should work on any TV (I'd certainly hope every TV will support HDR10). Like audio formats there's room for more than one, provided there's some minimum baseline that works on all systems. Now if they do something dome like letting manufacturers master to HDR10 or Dolby Vision, such that any given disc may not work on all displays, then that's a disaster in the making.
Like you, I assumed that mandatory meant for each title. If mandatory is for the player, ie each player has to support HDR10 and the other formats are optional, and if displays don't have to support HDR10 either as Scott suggests, then a DV titles will likely play in SDR on a non DV display, which really blows as it looks like DV is becoming quite prevalent in the movie world (at least regarding cinema releases). Of course they might master all UHD Bluray titles to HDR10 to avoid compatibility issues, given the fact that no consumer display currently handles more than 1000nits, but that's not what I heard.

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I requested info, but have not gotten an answer yet.
Please get us the info ASAP, especially regarding what happens when a Dolby Vision title is played!

Last edited by Manni01; 10-21-2015 at 01:14 AM.
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post #146 of 1526 Old 10-21-2015, 03:11 AM
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Further to my questions above regarding DolbyVision, here is an interview with Pat Griffith, CTO of Dolby Labs.

http://hdguru.com/griffis-dolby-visi...dr-approaches/

It seems to confirm what I had understood, i.e. that Dolby Vision uses a backwards compatible dual layer format.

Here are the most significant extracts:

"Dolby led the effort to create a new set of standards in The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE), which define a new HDR Electro-Optic Transfer Function (EOTF) [the process by which digital code words are transferred into visible light] based on how the human eye sees, called the “Perceptual Quantizer” or “PQ” (SMPTE ST-2084), as well as a standard to define the characteristics of the HDR mastering environment ( SMPTE ST-2086).
These standards have been embraced by a number of standards bodies including Blu-ray, MPEG, and now UHDA. Dolby Vision builds on these standards to provide the best possible experience today. We continue to standardize other components of the Dolby Vision technology including our technology to capture and deliver content-scene-based information to improve the mapping of HDR to SDR."

And more specifically:

"Dolby Vision was developed as the highest quality solution capable of up to full 12-bit dynamic range performance and as such, is a super set of all other approaches in the market. As requirements have evolved, Dolby Vision has been refined into a universal playback solution that embraces SDR as well as other HDR formats such as HDR10, which is a base layer format for next generation Blu-ray."

"Our approach is to master in the largest color volume possible [color volume is the pallet of all available colors at all allowable intensities. The larger the color volume, the greater the range of both color and contrast]. From that highest quality master, we can derive any needed output version including International Telecommunications Union (ITU) Rec.709 standard dynamic range (SDR) as well as HDR10 and anything in between providing maximum flexibility for the content owner."


"The resulting files have 12-bit precision across the full pallet of available colors so nothing needs to be “added” to the file. Dolby Vision-enabled Color Grading systems provide features to preserve the artistic intent by capturing metadata to aid in effective mapping to various lower level outputs such as HDR10 or Rec. 709 SDR. This metadata is then preserved throughout the Dolby Vision encoding system for post-produced content, and ultimately decoded in the Dolby Vision-enabled device to maintain artistic intent from the creative to the consumer, while providing the best experience possible for the pedigree of the consumer display device. Such metadata is not required for natural content such as live broadcasts"


"The next generation Blu-ray format uses a 10- bit PQ base- layer profile which provides good performance. Dolby Vision builds on this base layer to provide 12-bit precision and increased performance. Both are played out from the disk at bit rates much higher than typical OTT. Some are considering using this Blu-ray HDR base layer as a streaming profile and if so, Dolby Vision can also be added on top of this as base layer in the dual-layer approach as I’ve described. Another method is to provide Dolby Vision as a backwards compatible enhancement layer on top of an SDR base layer as described above. Dolby Vision works fine for either use case. "

So this is exactly what I thought was happening, DV using a base layer compatible with the mandatory HDR-10 on UHD Bluray, although arguably it might be read as working only in DV enabled displays.

@Scott Wilkinson, please could you double check with your source and confirm whether DV uses an HDR-10 compatible layer on UHD Bluray, as this interview seems to suggest, or if things are different?

Thanks!
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Last edited by Manni01; 10-21-2015 at 04:00 AM.
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post #147 of 1526 Old 10-21-2015, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Not sure how they had it for the show, but I liked JVC's answer as far as the controls. They have a default curve, but since they don't know our screen size or gain they give us control. Menu controls I saw were still enabled in HDR mode and people can hook up a PC and set their own curve.

Not sure if that was what you were getting at though. As far as I know the only HDR JVC was showing in their professional area was stuff they shot, so that would have had a fair amount of control of it.

--Darin

Hi Darin,

Yes, this is what I was talking about. What you report for the JVC sounds very good, hopefully Mike (or others) will be able to get more details soon. I think one of the things Dolby Vision add is a database of displays with their characteristics, so software like Calman can add displays in their own database so that we know which targets to hit when calibrating. HDR10 doesn't have such a per display optimization, so things have to be done manually (I myself prefer to have the ability to set things manually as in the JVCs, might allow to "cheat" a bit more to optimize results.

Scott did a great podcast with calibrator David Abrams which is a good intro to the way our calibration methods are shifting for those interested: https://www.avsforum.com/video-in-flux/
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Just got word now that the X5000 demo will be returned and a X7000 will come instead and I might get the same chance with the 7000 and do a "serious" test with it in mine or a friends batcave. So it will be side by side tested with a calibrated X500, will come back with more as soon as I know...
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Just got word now that the X5000 demo will be returned and a X7000 will come instead and I might get the same chance with the 7000 and do a "serious" test with it in mine or a friends batcave. So it will be side by side tested with a calibrated X500, will come back with more as soon as I know...

Now you're talking

If you could compare the black levels of the X500 with the iris fully closed (manual so native contrast) and the black levels of the X7000 in the same settings (manual iris fully closed) that would be most useful. Make sure the meter is on a tripod and doesn't move between measurements so we can compare absolute readings for black.

Please let us know of native on/off contrast, ANSI contrast and black levels measurements, both with the iris fully closed and fully open.

What's you throw / screen size / gain?

For all ANSI contrast measurements, please take measurements off the PJ lens on a tripod, not off the screen to minimize the impact of the room. During ANSI contrast measurements it would be great if you could cover the screen with black velvet / dark material to minimize the reflections from the screen. Also watch out for reflections from face/arms/hands when measuring the black squares in the ANSI pattern.

Really interested in finding out about fan noise in low and high lamp compared to the X500.

Improvements in eshift and 3D?

Settings for HDR?

If you could take a picture of the menus for HDR settings (or anything new compared to the X500) that would be great.

Looking forward to all your observations Andreas

Last edited by Manni01; 10-21-2015 at 05:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Now you're talking

If you could compare the black levels of the X500 with the iris fully closed (manual so native contrast) and the black levels of the X7000 in the same settings (manual iris fully closed) that would be most useful. Make sure the meter is on a tripod and doesn't move between measurements so we can compare absolute readings for black.

Please let us know of native on/off contrast, ANSI contrast and black levels measurements, both with the iris fully closed and fully open.

What's you throw / screen size / gain?

For all ANSI contrast measurements, please take measurements off the PJ lens on a tripod, not off the screen to minimize the impact of the room. During ANSI contrast measurements it would be great if you could cover the screen with black velvet / dark material to minimize the reflections from the screen. Also watch out for reflections from face/arms/hands when measuring the black squares in the ANSI pattern.

Really interested in finding out about fan noise in low and high lamp compared to the X500.

Improvements in eshift and 3D?

Settings for HDR?

If you could take a picture of the menus for HDR settings (or anything new compared to the X500) that would be great.

Looking forward to all your observations Andreas

If I get the chance to test it I will try to meet all your demands Manni01.


It will probably be in my friends room (batcave) and he has a 110" dnp Supernova 08-85 screen and I am not sure about his throw.
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