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post #1501 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 04:31 AM
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Another shootout planned for this Saturday in Belgium.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/cinedre...ts-19675724622
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post #1502 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post
Another shootout planned for this Saturday in Belgium.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/cinedre...ts-19675724622

Cool.

Though i will admit: Still waiting to read the results of the Germany shootout from November.
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post #1503 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 08:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post
Another shootout planned for this Saturday in Belgium.

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/cinedre...ts-19675724622
While I think this will be a good shootout, I don't think it's fair considering the price difference between the JVC and Sony units. Ironically, I think people will still prefer the image from either JVC unit over the Sony's.
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post #1504 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 09:22 AM
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I guess economics are vastly different in other parts of the world. But here the truly fair comparison if you are trying to stay on point for MSRP would be the Sony 350 vs JVC RS600 vs Epson LS10000. I realize the RS500 and Epson are comparative in price, but given actual street prices of the JVCs, it still makes more sense. And even then bringing the Sony 350 end makes it seem like bringing a luxury car to a high end model of a standard brand comparison. For the US it makes almost no sense at all to directly compare the Sony 655 to any of the JVCs given the massive delta in price point. I don't cross shop a Mazda 6 with an Audi S6, but that is the reality given the differences in price.
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post #1505 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 09:31 AM
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On this subject though, I am slated to get a RS500 late next week and will then have a LS10000, a Sony 655 and the JVC at the same time through the holidays. I will try and make a point of doing some comparisons while I have them in house. Hopefully Darin's schedule will be open to it as well and I'm sure I'll invite some other locals.

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post #1506 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
On this subject though, I am slated to get a RS500 late next week and will then have a LS10000, a Sony 655 and the JVC at the same time through the holidays. I will try and make a point of doing some comparisons while I have them in house. Hopefully Darin's schedule will be open to it as well and I'm sure I'll invite some other locals.
Darin will probably have his 500 around that time also.
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post #1507 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 11:01 AM
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Forget the JVC, Epson, and Sony...

I saw this at Kohls today. Perhaps this is the projector for 2016 by "Shift3".

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post #1508 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 11:16 AM
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Darin will probably have his 500 around that time also.
Awesome. Now if Kris gets a better one I just need to figure out how to slyly swap them after the comparison.

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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Awesome. Now if Kris gets a better one I just need to figure out how to slyly swap them after the comparison.

--Darin
"Hey Kris, look at that."
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post #1510 of 1526 Old 12-02-2015, 06:46 PM
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"Hey Kris, look at that."

Then grab it and run like hell! Just beat him to the toll station on the way back to Seattle and you're golden
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A newbie question. I have been trying to educate myself with Contrast Ratio. Since JVC is the Contrast Monstor, I decided to understand what these specs really mean. Here in this video
they are talking about contrast ratio and according to the speaker, a 450 contrast ratio using Black/White checker was spectacular. Now looking at the ratio for RS600, we get 150,000:1. This is a HUGE number as compared to 450. I'm sure these are two different ways to calculate contrast.
My Question: What is the difference b/w Native ratio and Ratio calculated using Black/White checker pattern?
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post #1512 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 09:13 AM
 
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A newbie question. I have been trying to educate myself with Contrast Ratio. Since JVC is the Contrast Monstor, I decided to understand what these specs really mean. Here in this video
they are talking about contrast ratio and according to the speaker, a 450 contrast ratio using Black/White checker was spectacular. Now looking at the ratio for RS600, we get 150,000:1. This is a HUGE number as compared to 450. I'm sure these are two different ways to calculate contrast.
My Question: What is the difference b/w Native ratio and Ratio calculated using Black/White checker pattern?
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post #1513 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 09:15 AM
 
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I'll let Darin chime in. I'm sure he has some choice words to use about that video and the presenter.
@darinp2

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post #1514 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 09:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
A newbie question. I have been trying to educate myself with Contrast Ratio. Since JVC is the Contrast Monstor, I decided to understand what these specs really mean. Here in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le1ZzFLYOiU they are talking about contrast ratio and according to the speaker, a 450 contrast ratio using Black/White checker was spectacular. Now looking at the ratio for RS600, we get 150,000:1. This is a HUGE number as compared to 450. I'm sure these are two different ways to calculate contrast.
My Question: What is the difference b/w Native ratio and Ratio calculated using Black/White checker pattern?
This has been taken up before and what this person is talking about when mentioning 450:1 is ANSI contrast. Full on full off measured with the projector off is just silly, because in a room with dark walls you will get infinite on/off even with a DLP with 2000:1 native on/off. My experience is that you need to have good numbers in both the different measurements and that is why Sony and JVC have so dynamic projectors. If the RS500 measures 150000:1 on/off and 400:1 ANSI contrast it will be a real killer.

And maybe @zombie10k can provide us with some measurements soon??
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
This has been taken up before and what this person is talking about when mentioning 450:1 is ANSI contrast. Full on full off measured with the projector off is just silly, because in a room with dark walls you will get infinite on/off even with a DLP with 2000:1 native on/off. My experience is that you need to have good numbers in both the different measurements and that is why Sony and JVC have so dynamic projectors. If the RS500 measures 150000:1 on/off and 400:1 ANSI contrast it will be a real killer.

And maybe @zombie10k can provide us with some measurements soon??
When you say 400:1 ANSI ratio, does this mean a contrast measured with a pattern that has Full Black and Bright White displayed on screen at the same time?
Edit: Found the definition: ANSI contrast ratio is a good addition. This is where eight-each white and black boxes in a checkerboard pattern are measured and averaged

Now based on that, if we do end up getting 400:1, it would most like be amazing. Does anyone know what's the ANSI ratio on LG OLED tvs? They surely are mind blowing and are a good point to compare with. I know that no projector can come equivalent to OLED but may be its a good mark to compare with?
JVC doesn't list ANSI but Native contrast of 150,000:1. Wonder whats the relevance here?

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post #1516 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 09:50 AM
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Cool.

Though i will admit: Still waiting to read the results of the Germany shootout from November.
I'm curious why they have not been posted yet.
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post #1517 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 10:06 AM
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It means measuring the contrast of a 4x4 checkerboard pattern (the average brightness of the white squares divided by the black). This can be regarded as a really bad scenario for contrast as the more light you put out the more light contamination you get. It is also not very relevant for movies as the average frame has much, much less light.

Native sequential on off contrast is what a projector can achieve with a fully white and then a fully black frame. This is also close to the contrast you can expect in very dark images with only small portions of the screen with bright objects. For the jvcs this is in the 25k-120k range depending on iris setting, throw and model.

Dynamic contrast is the difference between a fully white and fully black frame also using dimming of the light source for the black frame. Thus can be achieved by either direct dimming the light source or having a dynamic iris that shuts down in dark frames. Dynamic contrast is useful for decreasing the black floor but is limited as it also dims the white at the same time and can cause brightness compression, brightness pumping and other artifacts. A moderate multiplier of the native contrast really does help to improve the image though.
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post #1518 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
When you say 400:1 ANSI ratio, does this mean a contrast measured with a pattern that has Full Black and Bright White displayed on screen at the same time?
Edit: Found the definition: ANSI contrast ratio is a good addition. This is where eight-each white and black boxes in a checkerboard pattern are measured and averaged

Now based on that, if we do end up getting 400:1, it would most like be amazing. Does anyone know what's the ANSI ratio on LG OLED tvs? They surely are mind blowing and are a good point to compare with. I know that no projector can come equivalent to OLED but may be its a good mark to compare with?
JVC doesn't list ANSI but Native contrast of 150,000:1. Wonder whats the relevance here?
Ansi contrast on the LG OLED TV is almost infinite as black still measure as 0 when fed an ANSI contrast pattern.

This is not possible with FP and if the JVC gets 400:1 + with the iris at 0 it will be quite a big upgrade from the Xx00 series at they measured around 300:1 with the iris set to 0.

Very few if any manufacturers lists ANSI contrast as the numbers are normally between 200-700:1 and it can be confusing when other mention contrast at 150000:1, and if you dont know the difference it will be. And most consumers dont know the difference between ANSI and on/off.

ANSI contrast is also a measurement that has very little to do with what we see in movies as movies is a very dark medium. But it is a good indication when you have quite high numbers in both ANSI and on/off measurements as this gives a good indication of the intrascene contrast ability of the display.

Last edited by Andreas21; 12-05-2015 at 10:13 AM.
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post #1519 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 10:18 AM
 
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Ansi contrast on the LG OLED TV is almost infinite as black still measure as 0 when fed an ANSI contrast pattern.

This is not possible with FP and if the JVC gets 400:1 + with the iris at 0 it will be quite a big upgrade from the Xx00 series at they measured around 300:1 with the iris set to 0.

Very few if any manufacturers lists ANSI contrast as the numbers are normally between 200-700:1 and it can be confusing when other mention contrast at 150000:1, and if you dont know the difference it will be. And most consumers dont know the difference between ANSI and on/off.

ANSI contrast is also a measurement that has very little to do with what we see in movies as movies is a very dark medium. But it is a good indication when you have quite high numbers in both ANSI and on/off measurements as this gives a good indication of the intrascene contrast ability of the display.
I'm assuming that changing the lamp mode to high will also impact the ratio? So is it fair that when you say that a 400:1 would a big upgrade, you are assuming that iris is at 0 (as you mentioned) and lamp is running low?
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It should have about the same on/off and ANSI in both lamp modes. And most people will use the new JVC´s in low lamp mode as it will give enough brightness for most setups.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post
It means measuring the contrast of a 4x4 checkerboard pattern (the average brightness of the white squares divided by the black). This can be regarded as a really bad scenario for contrast as the more light you put out the more light contamination you get. It is also not very relevant for movies as the average frame has much, much less light.

Native sequential on off contrast is what a projector can achieve with a fully white and then a fully black frame. This is also close to the contrast you can expect in very dark images with only small portions of the screen with bright objects. For the jvcs this is in the 25k-120k range depending on iris setting, throw and model.

Dynamic contrast is the difference between a fully white and fully black frame also using dimming of the light source for the black frame. Thus can be achieved by either direct dimming the light source or having a dynamic iris that shuts down in dark frames. Dynamic contrast is useful for decreasing the black floor but is limited as it also dims the white at the same time and can cause brightness compression, brightness pumping and other artifacts. A moderate multiplier of the native contrast really does help to improve the image though.
So then what do you think is the right method to measure contrast for a projector?
BTW, Kevin in this video stated that using ANSI is the way to measure even for theaters (projectors). He said this in the video in b/w 5:00-6:00 minutes section.

Last edited by SherazNJ; 12-05-2015 at 03:37 PM.
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post #1522 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 05:57 PM
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So then what do you think is the right method to measure contrast for a projector?
BTW, Kevin in this video stated that using ANSI is the way to measure even for theaters (projectors). He said this in the video in b/w 5:00-6:00 minutes section.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wZ0u_AOYUs
I think that was before I talked to Kevin. He was a stand up guy with my corrections to his way of thinking. The other guy you mentioned with the video about 450:1 is a nice guy, but not really technically competent IMO. The misinformation came to these guys from others and I think I have a good idea of who started the misinformation. Fortunately, over the last decade or so more people have started to get it.

450:1 ANSI CR with high on/off CR can look great. However, the Sony BVM LCD monitors from about a decade ago were horrible for blacks with movies and I measured one at higher than 450:1 ANSI CR. IIRC correctly it had about 480:1 ANSI CR and 520:1 on/off CR. The on/off CR meant a very gray black floor for most images, but the super bright ANSI checkerboards were fine because with that much light our eyes see the gray as black.

There is no one way to measure contrast ratio, just like I can't think of one way to measure how good tires on a car are with a single test that tells me both how they do on hot dry pavement and how they do in the ice and snow.

ANSI CR can be good for some things, but with a picture like this (where I've adjusted the original to make sure it is bring enough to see) ANSI CR doesn't have that much to do with this image in general, where the black floor from the on/off CR test tends to matter much more.



I realize it is a fair amount of information, but here is a presentation that I gave to a professional group in June about contrast ratio:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2tefx2uzh...ctors.pdf?dl=0

--Darin
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post #1523 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I think that was before I talked to Kevin. He was a stand up guy with my corrections to his way of thinking. The other guy you mentioned with the video about 450:1 is a nice guy, but not really technically competent IMO. The misinformation came to these guys from others and I think I have a good idea of who started the misinformation. Fortunately, over the last decade or so more people have started to get it.

450:1 ANSI CR with high on/off CR can look great. However, the Sony BVM LCD monitors from about a decade ago were horrible for blacks with movies and I measured one at higher than 450:1 ANSI CR. IIRC correctly it had about 480:1 ANSI CR and 520:1 on/off CR. The on/off CR meant a very gray black floor for most images, but the super bright ANSI checkerboards were fine because with that much light our eyes see the gray as black.

There is no one way to measure contrast ratio, just like I can't think of one way to measure how good tires on a car are with a single test that tells me both how they do on hot dry pavement and how they do in the ice and snow.

ANSI CR can be good for some things, but with a picture like this (where I've adjusted the original to make sure it is bring enough to see) ANSI CR doesn't have that much to do with this image in general, where the black floor from the on/off CR test tends to matter much more.



I realize it is a fair amount of information, but here is a presentation that I gave to a professional group in June about contrast ratio:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2tefx2uzh...ctors.pdf?dl=0

--Darin
JVC Brutal Contrast Monster, meet Darin, Brutal Contrast Master.
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post #1524 of 1526 Old 12-05-2015, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
A newbie question. I have been trying to educate myself with Contrast Ratio. Since JVC is the Contrast Monstor, I decided to understand what these specs really mean. Here in this video
If you want things in Youtube form, here is one I did to address the incorrect assumption many in this industry have made that the black during the ANSI CR test tells us the black for other images. This is far from the truth for front projection systems.

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSaxEg_qN5s
Here is another one I did to try to keep people from being misinformed by INFOCOMM when that organization didn't care enough to run some basic tests I suggested that would have shown them that their main expert was wrong (and their main CR standard was based on a fallacy):


They have a lot more power to misinform people than I do to properly inform people, but fortunately there are some organizations I consider good on the subject matter in this industry. INFOCOMM isn't one of them though. Maybe that will change in the future. I made some public comments during their review period for their latest CR standard and over 3 months later they haven't finalized the standard or addressed anybody's public comments in the place I check on their site. Hopefully they finally are caring enough to properly investigate now that the comments were made publicly within the ANSI rules and not private communications they could largely ignore by saying that ANSI doesn't require them to do anything for years even if they are wrong.

--Darin

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post #1525 of 1526 Old 12-06-2015, 09:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

There is no one way to measure contrast ratio, just like I can't think of one way to measure how good tires on a car are with a single test that tells me both how they do on hot dry pavement and how they do in the ice and snow.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2tefx2uzh...ctors.pdf?dl=0

--Darin
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
They have a lot more power to misinform people than I do to properly inform people, but fortunately there are some organizations I consider good on the subject matter in this industry. INFOCOMM isn't one of them though. Maybe that will change in the future. I made some public comments during their review period for their latest CR standard and over 3 months later they haven't finalized the standard or addressed anybody's public comments in the place I check on their site. Hopefully they finally are caring enough to properly investigate now that the comments were made publicly within the ANSI rules and not private communications they could largely ignore by saying that ANSI doesn't require them to do anything for years even if they are wrong.

--Darin
Thx so much for sharing these. Wowww. Talk about people mis-understanding or misleading others with these Contrast Ratios. As I understand, using NR is not enough to determine how good the contrast is going to be. Your analogy of tire makes me think that there is simply just no number that one can use to determine what contrast one will get. Be it NR, or On/Off full Native Ratio, Dynamic Ratio . You mentioned that the combination of NR and System Sequention CR can give a better idea of what one can expect?

What I'm trying to get is what is it we (buyers) can use to guide us to make a better decision when it comes to contrast? Reading up on other resources like CNet, they mention that you have to rely on the reviews and not the number. But you have clearly demonstrated that even the professional reviews have got it wrong. Well then how do we determine which one to buy? What resource can we trust in and what numbers/terms/values are we looking for? Or our only option is to buy it and try it and good luck
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post #1526 of 1526 Old 01-03-2016, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I have had at least one person call that wanted to get a 180" or 200" diagonal screen ( because the projector specs say it can go that big and more ). And when I ask the seating distance - 25 feet ! I don't think an Epson 5030 is going to quite cut it - and their budget wasn't quite Christie or Barco !
You should have sold him a bucket of paint for the screen, and a sledge hammer to make room in the back wall...
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