Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 1004 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #30091 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Done. I’ve added a curve with the same response except the highlight clipping. It gives you brighter highlights for movies with 1000 nits peak white.


Many thanks! I will try it today.


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post #30092 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 10:38 AM
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I have an X750R that we've been using an Oppo 103D with for that last 2+ years. I purchased an Oppo 203. I'm afraid I'm not savvy with all these calibration procedures, and just want a decent video production with 1080P and 4K material. What's the most simple path for me? I bought a Vertex that's still in the package, but if I don't need that to get where I need to be, I would just sell it. What are my options? Will the JVC's DI only work if I use the Vertex?

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post #30093 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I have an X750R that we've been using an Oppo 103D with for that last 2+ years. I purchased an Oppo 203. I'm afraid I'm not savvy with all these calibration procedures, and just want a decent video production with 1080P and 4K material. What's the most simple path for me? I bought a Vertex that's still in the package, but if I don't need that to get where I need to be, I would just sell it. What are my options? Will the JVC's DI only work if I use the Vertex?
If you want the DI, then keep the Vertex. Also, you can have it keep the JVC from selecting Gamma D for 4K. For me though it's not a big deal, I just switch over to what I need once it makes its switch to D.

As far as the EASIEST....hire @Chad B and have him make your projector shine. No muss, no fuss!
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post #30094 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
If you want the DI, then keep the Vertex. Also, you can have it keep the JVC from selecting Gamma D for 4K. For me though it's not a big deal, I just switch over to what I need once it makes its switch to D.

As far as the EASIEST....hire @Chad B and have him make your projector shine. No muss, no fuss!
Thanks for the input. Do I put the Vertex on the output of the Oppo, or at the input of the JVC X750R? I have a 50' Monoprice Slimrun AV HDR fiber optic cable running from my equipment at the front of my HT to the projector in the rear. I'm in cetral California , so ChadB is quite far away unfortunately.

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post #30095 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
Thanks for the input. Do I put the Vertex on the output of the Oppo, or at the input of the JVC X750R? I have a 50' Monoprice Slimrun AV HDR fiber optic cable running from my equipment at the front of my HT to the projector in the rear. I'm in cetral California , so ChadB is quite far away unfortunately.
Very welcome.

I'd get on his schedulers list ASAP so you can hire him next time he is out your way. As far as the Vertex, I don't use one so hopefully others will chime in.

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post #30096 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I have an X750R that we've been using an Oppo 103D with for that last 2+ years. I purchased an Oppo 203. I'm afraid I'm not savvy with all these calibration procedures, and just want a decent video production with 1080P and 4K material. What's the most simple path for me? I bought a Vertex that's still in the package, but if I don't need that to get where I need to be, I would just sell it. What are my options? Will the JVC's DI only work if I use the Vertex?
Do you plan to keep the Oppo 203? If so, the very quickest way to get a good looking picture is to set the Oppo 203 to HDR Tone Mapping (Mode 3 is I think what most use in here) and then your projector just needs to be on Gamma 2.4. This will bypass the need for any custom or premade gamma curves. If you do this you won't need the Vertex.

A very similar function and result can be accomplished with a Panasonic UB900 but that will require the Vertex.

Loading premade gamma curves is actually pretty straight forward and I do suggest you look into it. No matter what you choose, you'll need to make certain your projector has the BT2020 color profile installed.

I've made a guide that will help get you squared away very quickly with everything I've talked about. The instructions are comprehensive, clear and will not get you stuck: JVC 4K QuickStart Guide (Clicky)
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post #30097 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Do you plan to keep the Oppo 203? If so, the very quickest way to get a good looking picture is to set the Oppo 203 to HDR Tone Mapping (Mode 3 is I think what most use in here) and then your projector just needs to be on Gamma 2.4. This will bypass the need for any custom or premade gamma curves. If you do this you won't need the Vertex.

A very similar function and result can be accomplished with a Panasonic UB900 but that will require the Vertex.

Loading premade gamma curves is actually pretty straight forward and I do suggest you look into it. No matter what you choose, you'll need to make certain your projector has the BT2020 color profile installed.

I've made a guide that will help get you squared away very quickly with everything I've talked about. The instructions are comprehensive, clear and will not get you stuck: JVC 4K QuickStart Guide (Clicky)
So, the X750R DI will work with 4K material and just the Oppo 203 Mode 3 to the X750R? Yes, I installed the newest JVC firmware and the BT2020 color profile not long ago.

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post #30098 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
So, the X750R DI will work with 4K material and just the Oppo 203 Mode 3 to the X750R? Yes, I installed the newest JVC firmware and the BT2020 color profile not long ago.
I’m almost certain yes because the JVC sees the Oppo HDR Tone Mapping signal as SDR because the Oppo converts to SDR while retaining the Wide Color Gamut as BT2020. This is why you only have to set the JVC to BT2020 and Gamma 2.4.
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post #30099 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:16 PM
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I’m almost certain yes because the JVC sees the Oppo HDR Tone Mapping signal as SDR because the Oppo converts to SDR while retaining the Wide Color Gamut as BT2020. This is why you only have to set the JVC to BT2020 and Gamma 2.4.


That is correct. The JVC will be fed metadata that says “SDR” from thEOPPO so will not default to gamma D and therefore retain DI.


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post #30100 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tswire View Post
That is correct. The JVC will be fed metadata that says “SDR” from thEOPPO so will not default to gamma D and therefore retain DI.


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OK. What is the benefit of even using a Vertex then, if I can get 4K and HDR plus my DI will work with just the 203 and the X750R? So many people talk about them, so there has to be something? Or is it mainly for people who run custom calibrations and color profiles?

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post #30101 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:54 PM
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There's an issue with Oppo HDR Off SDR BT.2020 tone mapping were it doesn't do P3/DCI, so you're not getting WCG and the most from your UHDs. In this mode, you don't need an HDFury product because you're sending a SDR signal to the display and doing the tone mapping in the player. You can forgo buying a Linker or more expensive Vertex while you wait for them to correct it in a future firmware update, assuming that they're successful in doing so, especially after announcing closing their doors. Your call on waiting, and if not, your call on which HDFury product to purchase. And some folks that are brightness challenged, initially me included, liked what they see from tone mapping that they're happy with it even as it is. After trying Dominic's curves and doing A/B between the two methods, I opted to go back to custom curves and using an HDFury product. Some aren't bothering because they actually prefer some other aspects of the tone mapping PQ. You can do the A/B yourself and decide without buying a Linker or Vertex. Just remember to also switch the gamma off D to an imported curve once the movie plays, etc.
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post #30102 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Done. I’ve added a curve with the same response except the highlight clipping. It gives you brighter highlights for movies with 1000 nits peak white.
Thank you for the curves. I have loaded them under my User 1 to see how they look but can you tell me if the correction value in the gamma section needs to be set to import or normal when using the curves


Thanks
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post #30103 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 02:13 PM
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I have loaded them under my User 1 to see how they look but can you tell me if the correction value in the gamma section needs to be set to import or normal when using the curves
To use any custom profile, the correction value always has to be Import.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-11-2018 at 07:29 PM.
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post #30104 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
Very welcome.

I'd get on his schedulers list ASAP so you can hire him next time he is out your way. As far as the Vertex, I don't use one so hopefully others will chime in.
He was here in California recently, and I suspect it'll be a good long while before he's back. I was pleased with the work he did for me, so I've already had his scheduler put me in the database for whenever he does come back. I'll be in need of a touch up or will plan my next projector purchase to work with his schedule.
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post #30105 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
There's an issue with Oppo HDR Off SDR BT.2020 tone mapping were it doesn't do P3/DCI, so you're not getting WCG and the most from your UHDs. In this mode, you don't need an HDFury product because you're sending a SDR signal to the display and doing the tone mapping in the player. You can forgo buying a Linker or more expensive Vertex while you wait for them to correct it in a future firmware update, assuming that they're successful in doing so, especially after announcing closing their doors. Your call on waiting, and if not, your call on which HDFury product to purchase. And some folks that are brightness challenged, initially me included, liked what they see from tone mapping that they're happy with it even as it is. After trying Dominic's curves and doing A/B between the two methods, I opted to go back to custom curves and using an HDFury product. Some aren't bothering because they actually prefer some other aspects of the tone mapping PQ. You can do the A/B yourself and decide without buying a Linker or Vertex. Just remember to also switch the gamma off D to an imported curve once the movie plays, etc.
I've got my fingers crossed for the improved MadVR HDR-> SDR Tone mapping being a viable contender as well.

Looks like it just might be.
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post #30106 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
I have an X750R that we've been using an Oppo 103D with for that last 2+ years. I purchased an Oppo 203. I'm afraid I'm not savvy with all these calibration procedures, and just want a decent video production with 1080P and 4K material. What's the most simple path for me? I bought a Vertex that's still in the package, but if I don't need that to get where I need to be, I would just sell it. What are my options? Will the JVC's DI only work if I use the Vertex?
Easiest and get the DI is to let the Oppo do the HDR tone mapping, rather than the projector doing the HDR tone mapping. Does not require any extra boxes.
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post #30107 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
To use any custom profile, the correction value always has to be Import.


Dominic,

The 1200 curve is really good. The movies clipping at 1000 nits look great! Many thanks!


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post #30108 of 32006 Old 04-11-2018, 08:01 PM
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I've got my fingers crossed for the improved MadVR HDR-> SDR Tone mapping being a viable contender as well.

Looks like it just might be.
It definitely hits BT2020 no problem I can tell you that.
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post #30109 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 06:41 AM
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It definitely hits BT2020 no problem I can tell you that.
Javs,

Is the MadVR Arve Tone Mapping in this post the same as HDR->SDR tonemapping?

I'm thinking about installing madVRhdrTest5 and giving it a go. Figure it doesn't hurt to have another beta-tester. Is build 5 the latest I should be using or is there something more recent?

If it makes sense to just wait, I can do that too -- but, I've been itching to do some tinkering on my HTPC.

Anything in particular I need to do to get HDR->SDR working with MadVR? Do I need to break out the light meter and measure peak nits when my JVC is using SDR2020 profile? I have custom SDR2020 and HDR profiles created by ChadB (who used Arve's tool) last summer. Though I never use the HDR profile as I find the picture too dim.

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post #30110 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 01:27 PM
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I have what I hope is a "friendly" BD-XL drive coming tomorrow and likely to order a new GTX 1050 Ti soon, especially if prices come back to earth. After that, I'll be looking at MadVR tone mapping too and compare to custom curves. Sounds like Madshi and testers are close.

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post #30111 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 02:57 PM
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My GAWD!

Just finished the front 3rd of the room in triple black velvet...up to this point I tried everything, even Roscoe Black paint which in Canada is close to $100/gallon...well the Roscoe black is less reflective than any other paint but at the end of the day it’s more charcoal in color...

Now, triple black velvet, my gawd, everyone one told me to just skip to the velvet, but no no, I had to experiment with everything in between...I can confirm NOTHING LIKE TRIPLE BLACK VELVET! ZERO REFLECTION!

I think I need to rewatch all my 4K movies again...

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post #30112 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Javs,

Is the MadVR Arve Tone Mapping in this post the same as HDR->SDR tonemapping?

I'm thinking about installing madVRhdrTest5 and giving it a go. Figure it doesn't hurt to have another beta-tester. Is build 5 the latest I should be using or is there something more recent?

If it makes sense to just wait, I can do that too -- but, I've been itching to do some tinkering on my HTPC.

Anything in particular I need to do to get HDR->SDR working with MadVR? Do I need to break out the light meter and measure peak nits when my JVC is using SDR2020 profile? I have custom SDR2020 and HDR profiles created by ChadB (who used Arve's tool) last summer. Though I never use the HDR profile as I find the picture too dim.
Things are not quite done yet, but yeah version 5 will work right now, though I wont provide any support on an unfinished process. Nor should we be asking Madshi in that other thread just yet, hes far too busy.

Yes it is HDR to SDR tone mapping. You would be using 2.4 gamma on the projector. If you know the parameters Chad used you can get those into MadVR.

From what I have seen so far, it works far better than the Oppo. There is also clearly more saturation in the dynamic mode right now if you take a look at the range of images posted by Soulnight in the other thread comparing dumb curves vs MadVRs dynamic option. The good thing is you can actually use the same Arve tool parameters in the custom arve tool Madshi has modified and import them right into MadVR, then use MadVR's algorithms combined with the curves, its going to be the best of both worlds. What I hope is though sometime soon since MadVR can actually measure the average brightness of each frame it will soon be able to dynamically adjust the curves to suit the content so you will only even need one setting.

As far as calibration, mine was perfect, since I actually calibrated my machine using the Arve curves manually in HCFR, the projector was seeing the same exact thing, my colour was still spot on when I imported my Arve curve parameters into MadVR, full P3 coverage just as I get in HDR.
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post #30113 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 06:07 PM
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Just finished the front 3rd of the room in triple black velvet...up to this point I tried everything, even Roscoe Black paint which in Canada is close to $100/gallon...well the Roscoe black is less reflective than any other paint but at the end of the day it’s more charcoal in color...



Now, triple black velvet, my gawd, everyone one told me to just skip to the velvet, but no no, I had to experiment with everything in between...I can confirm NOTHING LIKE TRIPLE BLACK VELVET! ZERO REFLECTION!



I think I need to rewatch all my 4K movies again...

Only thing that compares is Fidelio Velvet.


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post #30114 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 07:47 PM
 
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Things are not quite done yet, but yeah version 5 will work right now, though I wont provide any support on an unfinished process. Nor should we be asking Madshi in that other thread just yet, hes far too busy.

Yes it is HDR to SDR tone mapping. You would be using 2.4 gamma on the projector. If you know the parameters Chad used you can get those into MadVR.

From what I have seen so far, it works far better than the Oppo. There is also clearly more saturation in the dynamic mode right now if you take a look at the range of images posted by Soulnight in the other thread comparing dumb curves vs MadVRs dynamic option. The good thing is you can actually use the same Arve tool parameters in the custom arve tool Madshi has modified and import them right into MadVR, then use MadVR's algorithms combined with the curves, its going to be the best of both worlds. What I hope is though sometime soon since MadVR can actually measure the average brightness of each frame it will soon be able to dynamically adjust the curves to suit the content so you will only even need one setting.

As far as calibration, mine was perfect, since I actually calibrated my machine using the Arve curves manually in HCFR, the projector was seeing the same exact thing, my colour was still spot on when I imported my Arve curve parameters into MadVR, full P3 coverage just as I get in HDR.
What sensor(s) have you settled on for use with your 9500 and hcfr? Did you add the i1 pro2?
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post #30115 of 32006 Old 04-12-2018, 09:16 PM
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What sensor(s) have you settled on for use with your 9500 and hcfr? Did you add the i1 pro2?
iD3 mostly, the Spyder can be made to work with it too.

I dont have an iPro2.

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post #30116 of 32006 Old 04-13-2018, 04:36 AM
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I have what I hope is a "friendly" BD-XL drive coming tomorrow and likely to order a new GTX 1050 Ti soon, especially if prices come back to earth. After that, I'll be looking at MadVR tone mapping too and compare to custom curves. Sounds like Madshi and testers are close.
I'd go for the 1060 if you can, that's what I've got. It's still sort of borderline for using the more advanced scaling modes and enhancements, specifically for upscaling 1080p and lower. I say "borderline", it works fine, but I have a few profiles to handle different content, and I can't turn everything up. That said, my gut tells me the 1060 is about the sweetspot, I get to use NGU for just about everything, I could surely run a bit "higher" settings with a 1070 or 1080, but those are a lot more expensive. Gut says a 1050 would be rather limiting, probably not for 4K/HDR but definitely for 1080p content.
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post #30117 of 32006 Old 04-13-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Things are not quite done yet, but yeah version 5 will work right now, though I wont provide any support on an unfinished process. Nor should we be asking Madshi in that other thread just yet, hes far too busy.

Yes it is HDR to SDR tone mapping. You would be using 2.4 gamma on the projector. If you know the parameters Chad used you can get those into MadVR.
Alright I stayed up WAY too late last night tinkering with jRiver + MadVR. I was able to successfully install the version 5 build and to my eyes HDR->SDR looks stunning.

I will respect your wishes and not ask for support on an unfinished product, but was wondering if you could help me with a MadVR question unrelated to the unfinished process.

My question is with regard to MadVR and bit-depth. Currenty I have the following video chain: Madvr (16-235), GPU (0-255), JVC Standard (16-235). On my GPU, my resolution is set to 2160p60hz 8-bit. Using the new feature, the colors look stunning and everything on my OSD says 10-bit, BT2020 etc... However, my JVC info screen says 8-bit

Does the JVC need to report 10bit+ in order to properly WCG or is MadVR dithering 10bit->8bit?

Otherwise, as you already know, the colors displayed by MadVRs tonemapping absolutely blow away what the Oppo is doing. I have "The World" demo and the colors jump off the screen. I had to disable 'reduce banding' and 'reduce ringing' in the artifact removal options in order to get my render time below 16ms... but thus far I am not seeing an banding as a result.

I'm really just left with the question of... its looks so damn good, but the JVC is reporting 8-bit Color depth.

edit: I think I found my answer on the doom9 forum.

For 4k23p, RGB 4:4:4 12-bit is ideal. For 4k60p, RGB 4:4:4 8-bit is ideal. I guess bit-depth isn't directly tied to WCG/BT2020. I have a whole new love and appreciation for the RS600 with this setup.
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post #30118 of 32006 Old 04-13-2018, 03:39 PM
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Alright I stayed up WAY too late last night tinkering with jRiver + MadVR. I was able to successfully install the version 5 build and to my eyes HDR->SDR looks stunning.

I will respect your wishes and not ask for support on an unfinished product, but was wondering if you could help me with a MadVR question unrelated to the unfinished process.

My question is with regard to MadVR and bit-depth. Currenty I have the following video chain: Madvr (16-235), GPU (0-255), JVC Standard (16-235). On my GPU, my resolution is set to 2160p60hz 8-bit. Using the new feature, the colors look stunning and everything on my OSD says 10-bit, BT2020 etc... However, my JVC info screen says 8-bit

Does the JVC need to report 10bit+ in order to properly WCG or is MadVR dithering 10bit->8bit?

Otherwise, as you already know, the colors displayed by MadVRs tonemapping absolutely blow away what the Oppo is doing. I have "The World" demo and the colors jump off the screen. I had to disable 'reduce banding' and 'reduce ringing' in the artifact removal options in order to get my render time below 16ms... but thus far I am not seeing an banding as a result.

I'm really just left with the question of... its looks so damn good, but the JVC is reporting 8-bit Color depth.

edit: I think I found my answer on the doom9 forum.

For 4k23p, RGB 4:4:4 12-bit is ideal. For 4k60p, RGB 4:4:4 8-bit is ideal. I guess bit-depth isn't directly tied to WCG/BT2020. I have a whole new love and appreciation for the RS600 with this setup.
Have you told madvr that your display supports 10bit or greater in the JVC display settings page in the madvr control panel?

Also you could tell madvr the supported resolutions and have it autoswitch from 60p to 23,976. But personally I think you should just be running 23hz the whole time much faster.

You don't want to be using 8 bit for HDR if you can, even though the dithering is good.

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post #30119 of 32006 Old 04-13-2018, 06:57 PM
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Have you told madvr that your display supports 10bit or greater in the JVC display settings page in the madvr control panel?

Also you could tell madvr the supported resolutions and have it autoswitch from 60p to 23,976. But personally I think you should just be running 23hz the whole time much faster.

You don't want to be using 8 bit for HDR if you can, even though the dithering is good.
Man ill need to get this madvr thing eventually.. Is it muvh better over your V3 custome curve..

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post #30120 of 32006 Old 04-13-2018, 07:10 PM
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Man ill need to get this madvr thing eventually.. Is it muvh better over your V3 custome curve..
Both together, they go hand in hand. I can import my curve in MadVR, and MadVR uses that curve to do its tone mapping. I had to recreate it using the custom version of the Arve software that Madshi forked specifically for MadVR.

This is software tone mapping at the end of the day and not display tone mapping any longer, But with that comes more control, so there is no real answer to your question since technically I would still be using the values my curves were created with.

Right now though until this is fully finished I am still just using passthough mode and my curves in the JVC.
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