Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 581 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17401 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 05:09 PM
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**UPDATED DEC 30th 2016 WITH LATEST SETTINGS**

So I had a pretty good look at the UB900 with Fury combo today, here are some observations on what is happening with SDR WCG and clipping. Kris, I know you will know all of this, but I just want to put my findings out there for the thread.

It looks like when the UB900 is in SDR BT2020 mode using the HD Fury, it is clipping the HDR signal input to 1000nits at default settings and that's what we are all looking at when we have no settings applied and just straight SDR BT2020.

Zombie and I were using Contrast -3 on the JVC settings for the past month or two it seems as that seemed to result in a slightly more natural image, and we both seemed to like what it did, looking at the patterns in this case, this is actually because what Contrast -3 does, is start to raise the SDR clipping point to about 1100/1200 nits... Sound familiar?

When I was looking at the Masciola patterns in SDR (By the way, this is a totally viable solution to setting your SDR WCG clipping preferences for HD Fury use) I noticed a few things.

First and obvious, The Dynamic Range Adjustment tool does indeed modify the picture tone. What that does is essentially raise the clipping point well past 1000nits the lower you have the slider, all the way to the left clips towards 4000 nits and all the way to the right clips towards 300/400 nits, similar to the contrast control on the JVC. But more than that I guess this does in a similar and closer way to how the JVC Gamma D Picture Tone control does it, and that is, it twists the S-Curve more or less.

Something interesting I noticed about black floor with the Panasonic UB900 in relation to the JVC controls... I have found it's MUCH better to set brightness in the Panasonic picture tones rather than the JVC. I used the Masciola patterns in both HDR and SDR and I think I arrive at some interesting settings I encourage some of you to try out and report back to me and see how you go.

For SDR WCG, setting the JVC Brightness and Contrast dials to zero, then in the Panasonic Picture Tone Controls set Contrast -3 & Brightness to +1, & Dynamic Contrast Adjustment to -1. This clips the HDR>SDR conversion to about 1200nits and Brightness +1 seemed to resolve the black clipping bars to barely make visible bar 73 which is 1%APL. Bar 68 is possible to resolve clearly but not without raising the black floor, this is with both HDR and SDR, so I consider this much like the Bar 17 issue in which its best not to chase that. If Contrast -3 on the Panny is making things a little dim for people then try -1 as that ends up at the same place and effect the JVC Contrast -3 had.

I have made a special black field clip which I use along with these patterns to check how these settings affected the black floor of the projector allowing me to do the HIDE trick with the JVC remote and comparing light output, I stared at the screen and also right into the lens for this... Those above settings when paused on the Black Field clip and hitting hide rendered no change in the black output from the projector. Winning!

NOW, here is the interesting thing. If we were not using the Panasonic brightness controls and instead using JVC controls to raise brightness (+2 or +3 for eg) to render bar 73 the black floor of the projector is raised with Gamma D settings 12/5/4! So, for HDR, I have some new settings, and I want some people to try this and compare is to the standard settings and tell me what you think, if you guys seem to report what I see and that HDR looks far better now with what appears to be a far lower black floor (12/5/4 is responsible for raised black floor) then I will update my HDR Recommended settings post with these new ones.

So for the JVC:
---------------
FOR HDR - OPTION ONE (RECOMMENDED):
---------------

Gamma D: Picture Tone: 12 / Dark Level: 3 / Bright Level: 4.
Contrast: +12
Brightness: 0

For the Panasonic:
Contrast: -3
Brightness: +1

--------------
FOR SDR:
--------------
JVC:
Gamma 2.4 (Or your personal preference)
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0

For the Panasonic:
Contrast: -3
Brightness: +1
Dynamic Contrast Adjustment: -1
-
Luminance Sharpness Settings (Panasonic):
High Freq: +3
Med Freq: +1 (Use +0 for 1080p Sources)
Edge Correction: +1
---

All Personal preference but in my case, on my 120" Diag screen, min throw distance:

HDR Lamp settings are Low Lamp -4 Iris.
SDR BT2020 Lamp settings are Low Lamp -10 Iris.

Now with those settings on the Panasonic, when using Fury and HDR>SDR viewing its best to create 2 Picture Tone Sets in the Panasonic so you can switch between them easily when you decide to watch HDR or SDR content.

---------------
FOR HDR - OPTION TWO (EXPERIMENTAL YMMV):
---------------

Gamma D: Picture Tone: 12 / Dark Level: 0 / Bright Level: 4.
Contrast: +12
Brightness: 0

For the Panasonic:
Contrast: -3
Brightness: +4 (You can go to Brightness +5 or +6 if you feel you need it, both will VERY slightly raise the black floor, but still FAR less than using the old Gamma 12/4/5 will do)

You may find the blacks too dark with this option, this is the option where there is the most MINIMAL projector based black floor raise. If this is still too dark for you (This is an ongoing experiment afterall) then try Option ONE, which is far closer to JVC Recommended Spec and what most of us have been doing for some time.









HDR Clipping:



SDR Clipping:



This clips 1100/1200 nits still, resolves bar 73 and has absolutely zero black floor raising in HDR when compared with the Black Field test clip. The old settings I was on, 12/5/4 and Brightness +3 lifted the black floor noticeably, in fact there was a shot in the Martian which was a fade in the beginning of the film which prompted me to check all of this, I paused it on that scene, hit HIDE and sure enough there was a fairly large black floor disparity with the old settings. That scene in the Martian is now as black as expected with no black floor difference between HIDE and the film with the new settings.

A word of warning, if you do have these patterns and you are looking at them with a USB device and make changes to the Panasonic picture tones, you will need to replicate those changes when you play a disc since the picture tone controls seem to be linked to video sources not player wide. Easy enough to do.

Lastly, something else interesting and its visible in these images even, more pronounced in person IMO, is all things being equal, with only the selection of Gamma D, the colour seems to be far more saturated and vibrant all across the board. I have to say, I prefer the colour impact in HDR, now I am not sure if this is some glitch or not, I suppose I should double check that we are actually getting BT2020 in SDR, since from what I am seeing (Despite the Panasonic AND the Marantz 7702 confirming BT2020 in SDR) it looks like the colour difference is something akin to BT709 and BT2020, so I am a bit confused with this... Anybody else notice a fairly desaturated SDR WCG image vs the HDR counterpart? I am not sure which is actually correct, but there seems to be a large difference in colour luminance and saturation when Gamma D is activated... I am thinking it would be a good idea to attempt a BT2020 calibration with Gamma D enabled. I have added a shot of Lucy in the hospital gown near the end of the post, so you can see there actually there does appear to be WCG visible (At least as far as the forum and your computer screen is concerned) vs the BT709 source image... Which is right though, HDR or SDR... Im betting SDR is far far closer to accurate colour. Interesting.

HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



HDR:



SDR:



BT709 Screengrab from Bluray:



HDR:



SDR:



Please do NOT quote this post with all the images in tact, if you quote me, please delete everything except a line or two for reference, its too long to quote and makes the thread a pain to read. Thanks.

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post #17402 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:13 PM
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[QUOTE=Javs;48676937]



[B]So for the JVC:
Gamma D: Picture Tone - 12 / Dark Level - 3 / Bright Level - 4.
Contrast: +12
Brightness: 0

For the Panasonic:
Contrast: -3



Thanks!! To clarify the numbers above are negative values, those are not dashes? Correct?

Also are u feeling the pj is now viable for HDR over SDR? ie. is HDR now your preference given these new settings?

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post #17403 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks!! To clarify the numbers above are negative values, those are not dashes? Correct?

Also are u feeling the pj is now viable for HDR over SDR? ie. is HDR now your preference given these new settings?
I have clarified this in the post since, its positive (If you every played around with these settings you would know what I meant), also please look at the pictures, I photographed all the settings screens.

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post #17404 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:33 PM
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[quote=asharma;48678265]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post



[B]So for the JVC:
Gamma D: Picture Tone - 12 / Dark Level - 3 / Bright Level - 4.
Contrast: +12
Brightness: 0

For the Panasonic:
Contrast: -3



Thanks!! To clarify the numbers above are negative values, those are not dashes? Correct?
I hope those are dashes. I'm purdy sure he's increasing those values.
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post #17405 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I hope those are dashes. I found this confusing as well but, I purdy sure he's increasing those values.
Yes they are dashes, the original post is now clarified...

For eg.
Picture Tone: 12
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post #17406 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:52 PM
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[quote=Javs;48678633]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

Yes they are dashes, the original post is now clarified...

For eg.
Picture Tone: 12
Thanks again...just want to double check: for both SDR and HDR keep the Panasonic settings the same. On the jvc, SDR/HDR settings the same (ie. both contrast 12?), only difference is gamma? I'm not sure I have this right...appreciate any clarification...thanks kindly...will test tomorrow...

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post #17407 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks again...just want to double check: for both SDR and HDR keep the Panasonic settings the same. On the jvc, SDR/HDR settings the same (ie. both contrast 12?), only difference is gamma? I'm not sure I have this right...appreciate any clarification...thanks kindly...will test tomorrow...
Its written there in bold buddy, perhaps when you have time to read the post properly you should look at it then.

Guess I should take a picture of the SDR settings too for the super confused people

Quote:
For SDR WCG, setting the JVC Brightness and Contrast dials to zero, then in the Panasonic Picture Tone Controls set Contrast -3 & brightness to +4. This clips the HDR>SDR conversion to 1200nits and Brightness +4 seemed to resolve the black clipping bars to barely make visible bar 73 which is 1%APL. Bar 68 is possible to resolve clearly but not without raising the black floor, this is with both HDR and SDR, so I consider this much like the Bar 17 issue in which its best not to chase that. If Contrast -3 on the Panny is making things a little dim for people then try -1 as that ends up at the same place and effect the JVC Contrast -3 had.
EDIT: I clarified the original post even further.
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post #17408 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 07:00 PM
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Guess I should take a picture of the SDR settings too for the super confused people [/QUOTE]

Got it! Crap, read your post 3 times, as I knew u would ball me out if I misunderstood
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post #17409 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Got it! Crap, read your post 3 times, as I knew u would ball me out if I misunderstood
I am not going to add this to the original post since Ive now made it super clear (I hope lol!).

But here you go, For SDR:


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post #17410 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 07:08 PM
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@asharma Your quotes are getting all messed up buddy.

Please ensure if you quote someone you begin the QUOTE with brackets on either side, and make sure the end quote is /QUOTE in []

You have missed the end quote or opening quote on a number of posts now and its starting to look like the wrong people said certain things etc...

Looks like this:

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post #17411 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 09:17 PM
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Hey, Javs, thanks for doing this experiment for the benefit of everyone. Nice work! Much appreciated. I will test and report back.
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post #17412 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 10:26 PM
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Javs, I just plugged in your recommended settings and then I ran the Mascior black and white clipping tests just to see where I landed. For some reason, I can now see a couple of bars below black. Yikes, that can't be right.
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post #17413 of 32133 Old 12-03-2016, 11:41 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Javs, I just plugged in your recommended settings and then I ran the Mascior black and white clipping tests just to see where I landed. For some reason, I can now see a couple of bars below black. Yikes, that can't be right.
Hey man, try reducing the Panasonic Brightness until you cant see below black anymore... Try Brightness = 1. That should stop it.

Did you set Gamma D to 12/3/4 and zero your JVC Brightness?

EDIT - just tested this again, you are right, I get the same thing actually.

New option, Try This:

Gamma D: 12 / 0 / 4. Yes Dark Level ZERO. Anything over zero raises black floor.

Then Panasonic brightness on +5.

Panasonic brightness up to +4 does not raise black floor at all, +5 is super super subtle raise (barely detectible) but its far far less so than the other dark gamma settings.

Try that. Im going to update my original post soon. The only thing is now SDR is going to look washed out so you will need to create Panasonic presets in the UB900 which is easy to do.

But from what I see, the black floor is now significantly less than what it was when previously using Gamma D: 12/5/4.

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post #17414 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 02:14 AM
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Yeah thats how I came to those settings, however I must have had a little more ambient light today when I did the tests than I though. Pitch black now. Brightness on +1 with the above settings resolves to bar 73 with 12/3/4.

Setting the Panasonic to -2 brightness just to see what happens blacls pit everything to bar 86, so I think if you are going -20!? Then there is some larger issue at play here!



Odd.

So If I go with Gamma 12/0/4 and set Panasonic brightness to +4 I most definitely do not resolve any lower than bar 68. I can barely see Bar68 actually which is good. Looks good to me. Just checking a few films out now.




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Thanks for looking into this, Javs! No matter how many times I mess around with HDR, trying to find that sweet spot, I always find myself circling back to good ole SDR BT2020. For me, it is far more important to get SDR BT2020 right. So, with the amended settings, SDR BT2020 is going to take a hit? If so, can you please look into creating some decent SDR settings to compensate for the unwanted side effect of looking washed out?.

Thanks,
Rick
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post #17416 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
@asharma Your quotes are getting all messed up buddy.

Please ensure if you quote someone you begin the QUOTE with brackets on either side, and make sure the end quote is /QUOTE in []

You have missed the end quote or opening quote on a number of posts now and its starting to look like the wrong people said certain things etc...

Looks like this:

Thanks man, yes I use an iPad and deleting and editing for shorter quotes is not quite as easy as on a PC with a mouse...thanks for the heads up...
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post #17417 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Thanks for looking into this, Javs! No matter how many times I mess around with HDR, trying to find that sweet spot, I always find myself circling back to good ole SDR BT2020. For me, it is far more important to get SDR BT2020 right. So, with the amended settings, SDR BT2020 is going to take a hit? If so, can you please look into creating some decent SDR settings to compensate for the unwanted side effect of looking washed out?.

Thanks,
Rick
I updated the post with the latest, had a look at SDR again and Contrast -3 and Brightness +1 on the Panny seems to the the go. So, not much has changed apart from leaving Brightness and Contrast on the JVC on ZERO, and adjusting a couple sliders on the Panny instead, clips 1200 nits or so, so you make sure you get good highlight coverage and +1 seems to resolve bar 73 and super barely bar 68. You could just as easily leave brightness on zero too, depends how good your gamma is I guess.

You are right, while I got HDR the best I have ever seen it, I still think SDR is just the most 'I don't feel I need to tweak this' image... And you get those super cool fade to blacks back.

In HDR right now though, I definitely have significantly more contrast and far lower black floor than I have ever had though, so I encourage people to have a look at the 12/0/4 solution with Panasonic Contrast -3 and Brightness +4 and see if they dig it, I had to almost break Gamma D to get there but it looks good!. Zero black floor raise, but still when compared to SDR maybe its a tad on the almost black crush side... I certainly feel when compared to SDR there is a bit of unavoidable crush going on, and I find it super unacceptable to need to more than double the black floor just to get no crush at all.

Oh and last of all, I did a BT2020 calibration today... using 2.4 gamma for the cal. HDR (Gamma D) BREAKS the calibrated image... colours have extremely high Delta-E errors through Gamma D, yet are pretty much spot on though Gamma 2.4, this is essentially what the Autocal did also, I went back in today and tweaked BT2020 to make it all more accurate and its great now, but not in HDR its not!...

Just another head scratcher... why does Gamma D totally break the calibration!? This is visible in the images above, the answer to my own question is resoundingly the SDR picture IS the accurate one not the 'HDR' one.... I guess I could try and do a whole new calibration with Gamma D activated, but that would be very very time consuming since its so incredibly out of whack and the luminance errors are through the roof with it activated.

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post #17418 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 04:36 AM
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@Javs

Thanks so very much for posting all of those comparison of HDR vs SDR. Two personal observations: (1) in most cases the differences are obvious; (2) irrespective of (1), those comparisons clearly demonstrate to me that I am much more of an audiophile than a videophile. If I had audio differences that were the equivalent of that different, I would spend untold hours/days/months/years working to get there (in fact, I have). While there are clear visible differences, those differences just don't bother me like the equivalent audio differences would (and have). If I could not have HDR, I would be very satisfied with SDR. I will be installing (hopefully) my RS500 this coming week but after having seen those comparisons, if I can't get HDR to be satisfactory without jumping through hoops, I will be perfectly OK.

Thanks for all of your posts and for taking the time to take and post those photos.
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post #17419 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 04:43 AM
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RS 500 With or Without an A-Lens

I have used an anamorphic lens (on a sled) on my last 3 projectors (two JVC's and and my current Sony) and was planning on doing so with my soon-to-be-installed RS500.

But after looking at this thread for so long, it appears that most folks don't use an A lens, or at least don't mention it. Which I assume means to switch from 16x9 to 2:35 one sets up a zoom memory. Has anyone compared this PJ with and without an A lens to get a subjective (or even better, an objective) comparison?

I wouldn't mind not using it if I give up VERY little (if anything). I could then sell it, the sled and the mounting plate (JVC specific) use the $$ for more audio/video toys

Last edited by audioguy; 12-04-2016 at 05:19 AM.
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post #17420 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I updated the post with the latest, had a look at SDR again and Contrast -3 and Brightness +1 on the Panny seems to the the go. So, not much has changed apart from leaving Brightness and Contrast on the JVC on ZERO, and adjusting a couple sliders on the Panny instead, clips 1200 nits or so, so you make sure you get good highlight coverage and +1 seems to resolve bar 73 and super barely bar 68. You could just as easily leave brightness on zero too, depends how good your gamma is I guess.

You are right, while I got HDR the best I have ever seen it, I still think SDR is just the most 'I don't feel I need to tweak this' image... And you get those super cool fade to blacks back.

In HDR right now though, I definitely have significantly more contrast and far lower black floor than I have ever had though, so I encourage people to have a look at the 12/0/4 solution with Panasonic Contrast -3 and Brightness +4 and see if they dig it, I had to almost break Gamma D to get there but it looks good!. Zero black floor raise, but still when compared to SDR maybe its a tad on the almost black crush side... I certainly feel when compared to SDR there is a bit of unavoidable crush going on, and I find it super unacceptable to need to more than double the black floor just to get no crush at all.

Oh and last of all, I did a BT2020 calibration today... using 2.4 gamma for the cal. HDR (Gamma D) BREAKS the calibrated image... colours have extremely high Delta-E errors through Gamma D, yet are pretty much spot on though Gamma 2.4, this is essentially what the Autocal did also, I went back in today and tweaked BT2020 to make it all more accurate and its great now, but not in HDR its not!...

Just another head scratcher... why does Gamma D totally break the calibration!? This is visible in the images above, the answer to my own question is resoundingly the SDR picture IS the accurate one not the 'HDR' one.... I guess I could try and do a whole new calibration with Gamma D activated, but that would be very very time consuming since its so incredibly out of whack and the luminance errors are through the roof with it activated.



Javs,
Just want to say thanks for all your hard work, I just don't have the time to put into this and appreciate all the help your are so willing to share with others. Would be inappropriate not to mention Zombie10K , Manni and all the rest that pave the way for those that cannot or do want to put in the time.
There is a quote that comes to mind: " The reason we see so far is because we stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before us." All we would need to do is tweak that quote to " the reason we see so clearly . "
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post #17421 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 07:34 AM
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Not true at all. It is actually changing the tone mapping drastically. I see a lot of people on here that prefer the SDR 2020 route with the JVC, and I understand why, but that method has its own tradeoffs, namely clipping in highlights. An easy example of this is near the beginning of Deadpool on UHD Blu. Go to the scenes when he is fighting on the bridge and pay attention to the clouds. If you pause when there is a lot of clouds, adjust the picture tone control in the Panasonic options menu and you'll see how much detail is being clipped. Sure it makes your image dimmer, but it gives you a good idea of the issues. [....]
I used the X750's superwhite selection and left all UB900 settings at default on those scenes in Deadpool uhd and that effectively solved the issue you describe.
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post #17422 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post

In HDR right now though, I definitely have significantly more contrast and far lower black floor than I have ever had though, so I encourage people to have a look at the 12/0/4 solution with Panasonic Contrast -3 and Brightness +4 and see if they dig it, I had to almost break Gamma D to get there but it looks good!. Zero black floor raise, but still when compared to SDR maybe its a tad on the almost black crush side... I certainly feel when compared to SDR there is a bit of unavoidable crush going on, and I find it super unacceptable to need to more than double the black floor just to get no crush at all.
I'm finding with your new HDR settings I'm crushing my blacks...would you suggest I just increase the brightness setting on the Panni? I'm 13.5 feet back from a 120" 1.0 gain 2.35 screen...BTW I prefer high lamp for HDR...thanks

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post #17423 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 10:49 AM
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I certainly feel when compared to SDR there is a bit of unavoidable crush going on, and I find it super unacceptable to need to more than double the black floor just to get no crush at all.
This statement says it all!!. That ever-present/unavoidable black crush in HDR images, slight as it may be at times, is a deal breaker for me. All I have to do is switch to SDR WCG and boom! everything becomes right again. I believe that the reason SDR has no black crush is because we can use a "regular" gamma as opposed to that experimental/broken Gamma D, and until there is an effective way to calibrate for it am sticking with SDR WCG. It looks way too good to sweat trying to get HDR to look "acceptable."
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post #17424 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 11:00 AM
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I thought you have a 110" diagonal screen 96" wide unless you've been lying to me this whole time.
You know what they say Tom... reading is a skill not yet mastered by some! I thought I read 110" diag (not wide)... DOH!
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post #17425 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 11:03 AM
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Hmmm.
Those images that Javs posted of HDR/SDR looks overly saturated and forced.
I prefer the SDR settings.
The first scenes of the mountains and grassy bits in them looks almost fluorescent, even the SDR looks pushed.
I prefer the standard Blu-ray scene of Lucy over the 3, one would have to see the actual colour of her blue gown to make a good comparison though.
With that said, I don't remember ever seeing a hospital gown quite so "BLUE", maybe it's just me, but the BT709 looks more of what it would be like.
This was scene on my 300es.
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post #17426 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 12:12 PM
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Hmmm.
Those images that Javs posted of HDR/SDR looks overly saturated and forced.
I prefer the SDR settings.
The first scenes of the mountains and grassy bits in them looks almost fluorescent, even the SDR looks pushed.
I prefer the standard Blu-ray scene of Lucy over the 3, one would have to see the actual colour of her blue gown to make a good comparison though.
With that said, I don't remember ever seeing a hospital gown quite so "BLUE", maybe it's just me, but the BT709 looks more of what it would be like.
This was scene on my 300es.
Regarding those Lucy scenes, it is easy to see that HDR has significant black crush, SDR WCG has much less, while SDR 709 has none. This is all due to the use of a normal gamma in both of the SDR flavors as opposed to the make-shift Gamma D for HDR in the JVC. The blue color in Lucy's hospital gown also seems to take on a neon look in HDR that is just not real-world natural. SDR WCG retains the richer colors while eliminating the neon look. In my setup, I have been able to get SDR WCG to look exactly like that SDR 709 photo (and by that I mean no black crush or loss of detail) while retaining the Wider color palette (No neon colors). Its a win-win situation and I get to use low bulb and the DI too.
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post #17427 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Regarding those Lucy scenes, it is easy to see that HDR has significant black crush, SDR WCG has much less, while SDR 709 has none. This is all due to the use of a normal gamma in both of the SDR flavors as opposed to the make-shift Gamma D for HDR in the JVC. The blue color in Lucy's hospital gown also seems to take on a neon look in HDR that is just not real-world natural. SDR WCG retains the richer colors while eliminating the neon look. In my setup, I have been able to get SDR WCG to look exactly like that SDR 709 photo (and by that I mean no black crush or loss of detail) while retaining the Wider color palette (No neon colors). Its a win-win situation and I get to use low bulb and the DI too.
So what settings are you using in jvc and panni to get these results for sdr/wcg?

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post #17428 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 01:08 PM
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Regarding those Lucy scenes, it is easy to see that HDR has significant black crush, SDR WCG has much less, while SDR 709 has none. This is all due to the use of a normal gamma in both of the SDR flavors as opposed to the make-shift Gamma D for HDR in the JVC. The blue color in Lucy's hospital gown also seems to take on a neon look in HDR that is just not real-world natural. SDR WCG retains the richer colors while eliminating the neon look. In my setup, I have been able to get SDR WCG to look exactly like that SDR 709 photo (and by that I mean no black crush or loss of detail) while retaining the Wider color palette (No neon colors). Its a win-win situation and I get to use low bulb and the DI too.
That's great news!!! Care to share settings, screen size and gain, throw distance etc? I'm sure we could all benefit. thanks

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post #17429 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 01:10 PM
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So what settings are you using in jvc and panni to get these results for sdr/wcg?
Well, I start with a full JVC auto-cal (SPYDER 5), followed by adjusting 100% white to D65 (i1D3 PRO and Chromapure Software) using only the gains control. I typically run contrast at -2 and brightness at 0 in the JVC but I have been playing around with JAVS' recommendations to zero out contrast and brightness in the JVC and adjust contrast (-3) and brightness (+1 or +2) in the Panasonic--and I am beginning to really like the results. I know a lot of folks here really like either a 2.4 power gamma or a BT1886 curve, but I have found that a straight 2.2 (normal) power gamma works best for SDR BT2020 in my setup. I also do not close down the Iris too much (-5 for some movies) but I tend to like it wide open to retain more brightness, which seems to get me most of the HDR benefits without the drawbacks. Of course, Screen material and environment play a huge part so you will have to season to taste.
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post #17430 of 32133 Old 12-04-2016, 01:18 PM
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Javs, I just plugged in your recommended settings and then I ran the Mascior black and white clipping tests just to see where I landed. For some reason, I can now see a couple of bars below black. Yikes, that can't be right.

And you're not using a different Input Level are you Rick (I'm pretty sure Javs uses STD & not Enhanced)?

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