Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 632 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18931 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 08:09 AM
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Since the Panny and the Oppo don't provide any streaming apps, I purchased a Roku Ultra yesterday to checkout some streaming sites. The Roku hdmi cable is plugged into my Denon receiver into the same input that my Panasonic 4K Blu-ray player was using. I am also using the same HDMI cable that worked perfectly fine on the Panny. I can only get a 720p setting to work with my JVC RS600 and the main Roku menu doesn't even display correctly - lines are repeated. Is anyone here successfully using the Roku Ultra with their JVC? If so, is there something specific that I need to do? Also, any recommendations for other streaming devices working with your JVC?
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post #18932 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hmm, Im just not so sure thats it...

Click this link, the pics show it all, there is a huge saturation difference there, and to be honest, I purposefully had HDR way dimmer so I could take these pics, they were only once click of exposure compensation away from each other on my camera...

There is more to that then luminance. I feel like Gamma D is doing something to the colour...

My Panasonic UB900 HDR and SDR Settings
You have to keep in mind that the Panny is doing a tone map that includes the colors. So they are adjusting not only the EOTF but the colors as well. This probably leads to a different luminance overall. Remember there is no "right" way to do what they are doing, every company will approach it differently and find their own sauce sort of speak until some kind of standard is implemented. So while it looks good, that is still a very generalized statement overall. You also have to remember that HDR has more to do with color than black and white. Having a much higher peak luminance allows for higher luminance in color even on the lower end. For SDR the highest blue you can achieve based on 100 nit mastering (standard Blu-ray) is 5 nits. With HDR you can have peak levels that are 50 nits. So even at relatively low levels of light you can have completely different color luminance. And the human eye is extremely sensitive to differences in color luminance. This is why so many 3-chip DLP owners raved about their color, it mainly had to do with the fact that they were calibrated at a much higher peak white level, so their color luminance was higher, despite saturation levels calibrating the same.

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post #18933 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 09:17 AM
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I'm also having problem with Roku Ultra. It used to work okay but afte their latest (forced) firmware update, I can only use 720p. Even then it keeps freezing, restarting etc. Annoying.
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post #18934 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
Since the Panny and the Oppo don't provide any streaming apps, I purchased a Roku Ultra yesterday to checkout some streaming sites.
The Panasonic has streaming apps.
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post #18935 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hmm, Im just not so sure thats it...

Click this link, the pics show it all, there is a huge saturation difference there, and to be honest, I purposefully had HDR way dimmer so I could take these pics, they were only once click of exposure compensation away from each other on my camera...

There is more to that then luminance. I feel like Gamma D is doing something to the colour...

My Panasonic UB900 HDR and SDR Settings
When looking at your pics, the SDR still looks a weeeee bit undersaturated in color compared to hdr (the Martian pic as an example)...clearly u r finding this an accepatable tradeoff for more blacks? Here's hoping all your settings are up to date as I'm gonna give em a whirl tonight! Thanks for all the research...everyone appreciates it!

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post #18936 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
You have to keep in mind that the Panny is doing a tone map that includes the colors. So they are adjusting not only the EOTF but the colors as well. This probably leads to a different luminance overall. Remember there is no "right" way to do what they are doing, every company will approach it differently and find their own sauce sort of speak until some kind of standard is implemented. So while it looks good, that is still a very generalized statement overall. You also have to remember that HDR has more to do with color than black and white. Having a much higher peak luminance allows for higher luminance in color even on the lower end. For SDR the highest blue you can achieve based on 100 nit mastering (standard Blu-ray) is 5 nits. With HDR you can have peak levels that are 50 nits. So even at relatively low levels of light you can have completely different color luminance. And the human eye is extremely sensitive to differences in color luminance. This is why so many 3-chip DLP owners raved about their color, it mainly had to do with the fact that they were calibrated at a much higher peak white level, so their color luminance was higher, despite saturation levels calibrating the same.
Yep, tone mapping is going to be sort of like which kind flavor of salad dressing do you prefer? Newmans? Kraft? Hidden valley? No right one, but some taste better than others.
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post #18937 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 11:38 AM
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[quote=Javs;49416561]Understood,

Yes, to be honest, I would love to hear why your calibrator used Gamma A and then that severe of picture tone controls...

Set your gamma to custom 1 and 2.3 or 2.4 correction value and see if it improves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Cool, that's your Picture Tone explained, but what about reasoning for your Dark Level? That one is purely near black

Plus, I use patterns, BvS is a 4000nit film IIRC, may have to bump to 1500 nits for that one, doubt there is much info above that

I used to use the fire in BvS since its very intense, but clouds are always a good one, however hard to know if they purposely overexposed them. But with fire, keep backing off until you don't see any new detail and stop

When Batmans batmobile explodes at the hands of Supes in that film its a good shot for looking at that. That is, until I got patterns then it was set and forget 1100 nits.
I ended up with Contrast at 10 (using the contrast pattern) which barely clips 235, Brightness to -7. I didn't use the brightness pattern (From AVS pattern disc) because it requires me to bring brightness to +16 to get close to Bar 17 and this makes everything completely washed out. So I came to -7 by using the Dark movies I'm familiar with (The Last Witch Hunter first scene). Yes its not right way to do may be but I don't know any better way. Is there a pattern you can recommend that I should use to set brightness properly?

You might be thinking that +10 contrast is too high but its now when Input is set to Super White. I again don't know why my calibrator chose Super White Vs Auto. Don't even know the difference but I do know that if I use Auto, it will clip contrast pattern on 235 around 0.

How could you see that setting brightness on Panny only increases the intensity of brightness bars on pattern? When I have the pattern up, I can't even bring Panny menu up. So Unless I bring the menu up while playing movie and then set brightness and then put in the pattern disc and compare, there seems to be no other way.

Appreciate your help. AND HAPPY NEW YEAR to all the fellow AVS Members
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post #18938 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 11:39 AM
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I'm getting my rs600 next week. With regards to a UHD player, do the JVC owners prefer the new oppo 203 over the Panasonic? I also purchased a HD integral for the SDR/WCG thingy. I've read reports that I won't need an HDfury with the new oppo but I've also read that stripping the metadata is still experimental at best..
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post #18939 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 11:53 AM
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[quote=harrisu;49436553]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Understood,

Yes, to be honest, I would love to hear why your calibrator used Gamma A and then that severe of picture tone controls...

Set your gamma to custom 1 and 2.3 or 2.4 correction value and see if it improves.



I ended up with Contrast at 10 (using the contrast pattern) which barely clips 235, Brightness to -7. I didn't use the brightness pattern (From AVS pattern disc) because it requires me to bring brightness to +16 to get close to Bar 17 and this makes everything completely washed out. So I came to -7 by using the Dark movies I'm familiar with (The Last Witch Hunter first scene). Yes its not right way to do may be but I don't know any better way. Is there a pattern you can recommend that I should use to set brightness properly?

You might be thinking that +10 contrast is too high but its now when Input is set to Super White. I again don't know why my calibrator chose Super White Vs Auto. Don't even know the difference but I do know that if I use Auto, it will clip contrast pattern on 235 around 0.

How could you see that setting brightness on Panny only increases the intensity of brightness bars on pattern? When I have the pattern up, I can't even bring Panny menu up. So Unless I bring the menu up while playing movie and then set brightness and then put in the pattern disc and compare, there seems to be no other way.

Appreciate your help. AND HAPPY NEW YEAR to all the fellow AVS Members
Harrisu, Sounds like you are trying to calibrate for HDR with the AVS test disc, if you are, you should use HDR test patterns (such as Ray Mascior's HDR test pattern suite) while your display is in HDR mode.
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post #18940 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 01:17 PM
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What seems to be the preferred level to clip white in HDR ?

Some are suggesting 1000/nits , but some 1100/1200 nits and up.

I have mine set at around the 80% level on the Masciola's UHD White Clipping pattern . What does 80% translate to in nits?

Set on 75%/1000 nits seems to clip to much??

Thanks..
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post #18941 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
When looking at your pics, the SDR still looks a weeeee bit undersaturated in color compared to hdr (the Martian pic as an example)...clearly u r finding this an accepatable tradeoff for more blacks? Here's hoping all your settings are up to date as I'm gonna give em a whirl tonight! Thanks for all the research...everyone appreciates it!
Yeah because I shoot my photos in RAW, and don't add stupidly saturated 'Standard' picture profiles, I use straight Adobe Standard, so that's just the camera, the only thing we should be paying attention to is how different the two look in relation to each other

Both are more saturated in real life.

What I really should be doing is shooting Adobe RGB and not sRGB but nobody is going to have a compatible monitor for that so uselsss it is.

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post #18942 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 03:45 PM
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4k SDR patterns?

Do I just use rec709 brightness and contrast patterns to set 4k SDR brightness and contrast?

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post #18943 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Yep, he has found some new tricks and improvements that can be made for HDR.

I'm going with three profiles: bt1886 for Blu-ray, a modified gamma for Blu-ray that is similar, but lower than bt1886 as I watch a lot of older catalog titles and sometimes bt1886 looks a little unnatural on those especially with ones mastered with a lower gamma, and bt1886 with SDR + 2020. This requires six separate calibrations though as I use a scope screen, so separate cals needed for non scope.

Well?? How did it go with Chads calibration and anything you can share for the Oppo users out there (over the Samsung etc...)?

And... Happy New Year to all my AVS bruthas (thanks for all your help this year... been the most fun I've had for home theater I can ever remember!).!
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post #18944 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
You have to keep in mind that the Panny is doing a tone map that includes the colors. So they are adjusting not only the EOTF but the colors as well. This probably leads to a different luminance overall. Remember there is no "right" way to do what they are doing, every company will approach it differently and find their own sauce sort of speak until some kind of standard is implemented. So while it looks good, that is still a very generalized statement overall. You also have to remember that HDR has more to do with color than black and white. Having a much higher peak luminance allows for higher luminance in color even on the lower end. For SDR the highest blue you can achieve based on 100 nit mastering (standard Blu-ray) is 5 nits. With HDR you can have peak levels that are 50 nits. So even at relatively low levels of light you can have completely different color luminance. And the human eye is extremely sensitive to differences in color luminance. This is why so many 3-chip DLP owners raved about their color, it mainly had to do with the fact that they were calibrated at a much higher peak white level, so their color luminance was higher, despite saturation levels calibrating the same.
Cheers Kris,

I should do this comparison again today, I re-ran Autocal the day after I took those shots, truth is I still watch 95% Bluray, otherwise we would all be constantly re-watching the same films over and over, but I should check again to see if Autocal made the saturations a little closer in appearance. I don't think the BT2020 profile I was using was calibrated correctly (Well of course), I did notice after the latest Autocal it was more accurate.

I will say though, that in relation to the P3 we see in the cinema, my SDR BT2020 'look' is far far closer to that. I don't ever come back from the cinema thinking WOW there was so much colour. Even Rogue One, I was particularly paying attention to the colours since its been a while since I have been to the theatre, and I am convinced SDR BT2020 is far closer to real P3 natural colours, HDR always seems a bit bold and forced to me, but I get that, its HDR.

Perhaps if we are all trying to chase that HDR saturation in SDR BT2020, we need to remember that's NOT what WCG is on its own, and it doesn't make the colour wrong at all, try and pay attention to the colours in the cinema, its not as different as some of us are expecting. Some of us are looking for this extreme level of saturation just because its wide colour gamut, it could not be further from the truth.

I have only seen two accounts in the cinema where I KNEW I was looking at wider colour gamut without a doubt. Pacific Rim, the entire sequence in Hong Kong, confirmed when I watched the UHD disc in SDRBT2020, colours there that are in NO WAY present on the Bluray. And finally the MARVEL red title card before any Marvel film, that shade of red does not exist in Rec709. That's it.
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post #18945 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Do I just use rec709 brightness and contrast patterns to set 4k SDR brightness and contrast?
No, use the HDR ones.

Use the contrast one to fine tune your SDR Clipping, its still very relevant.

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post #18946 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
No, use the HDR ones.

Use the contrast one to fine tune your SDR Clipping, its still very relevant.
Thanks man, ok I have both hdr (high lamp) and SDR calibrated (low lamp). Still prefer the saturation of hdr (specifically the pop)...

Very close to all your settings...for some reason I feel bad preferring hdr on this pj as I feel I'm in the 1 percent, if that, that do...
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post #18947 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Well?? How did it go with Chads calibration and anything you can share for the Oppo users out there (over the Samsung etc...)?

And... Happy New Year to all my AVS bruthas (thanks for all your help this year... been the most fun I've had for home theater I can ever remember!).!
Yeh, David is prolly too busy re-watching all of his movies after Chad did his magic. And I echo Kevin's sentiments; Thanks for all the help guys and here's wishing you all a happy, healthy and prosperous new year.
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post #18948 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 05:26 PM
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With everyone always talking about the "pop" of HDR, I wonder how many people should actually calibrate their SDR playback to 30 fL (as authored) and see how they feel about it. It would definitely give the image pop, more luminance for the color and you'd still be able to use the dynamic iris. You'd lose a bit of saturation in color, but without a direct comparison I doubt many would notice the difference. And by SDR I am talking about standard Blu-ray playback, not SDR with UHD content.

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post #18949 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 05:43 PM
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[quote=atabea;49436929]
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post

Harrisu, Sounds like you are trying to calibrate for HDR with the AVS test disc, if you are, you should use HDR test patterns (such as Ray Mascior's HDR test pattern suite) while your display is in HDR mode.
Hello atabea. I"m not trying to calibrate HDR but Regular SDR for 1080P Bluray. I very recently upgraded to latest firmware and also uploaded BT.2020. Since then, I realized that projector was super bright using my calibrated profile. I couldn't understand why but it I had to bring the brightness from +9 to -7 or else the image was looking completely white washed. Contrast is still on 10. Also, as @Javs suggested, I switched to Custom Gamma with 2.4 with PT,DL,B all to 0. Before with my calibrated profile, it was using A with PT=-13,DL=-1 and B=0. Javs couldn't see any reason as to why the calibrator would setup the Gamma like this. He suggested to use either 2.3 or 2.4 to see which one I like. I liked 2.4 better. I even used a low apl scene with Bright light to see what change it brings and wowwwww, I cuold clearly see how it popped the image with light. I brought these light to life. So I'm going to stick with 2.4 (Thanks Javs). Now the brightness is bothering me. The image looks way better as of now but I had to reduce to Brightness to -7.
So if I use the brightness pattern from AVS, according to its instruction I should bring brightness up until bar 17. Well for 17th bar, the brightness control on JVC goes up to +16 and the images looks super white washed. BTW, the input on my PJ is set to Super White (instead of Auto).

So now I'm trying to findout what's the best way to set Brightness? Clearly AVS pattern is not the right way. What pattern can I use to set brightness properly? Also Javs recommended to increase brightness in Panny becuase it doesn't increase brightness bars but intensify the bars. This means that it will intensify bright parts without smearing it. I don't know what to set for brightness and what pattern to use to see this intensity. He also recommended to use Panny Contrast control.
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post #18950 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 05:56 PM
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[quote=harrisu;49444625]
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post

Hello atabea. I"m not trying to calibrate HDR but Regular SDR for 1080P Bluray. I very recently upgraded to latest firmware and also uploaded BT.2020. Since then, I realized that projector was super bright using my calibrated profile. I couldn't understand why but it I had to bring the brightness from +9 to -7 or else the image was looking completely white washed. Contrast is still on 10. Also, as @Javs suggested, I switched to Custom Gamma with 2.4 with PT,DL,B all to 0. Before with my calibrated profile, it was using A with PT=-13,DL=-1 and B=0. Javs couldn't see any reason as to why the calibrator would setup the Gamma like this. He suggested to use either 2.3 or 2.4 to see which one I like. I liked 2.4 better. I even used a low apl scene with Bright light to see what change it brings and wowwwww, I cuold clearly see how it popped the image with light. I brought these light to life. So I'm going to stick with 2.4 (Thanks Javs). Now the brightness is bothering me. The image looks way better as of now but I had to reduce to Brightness to -7.
So if I use the brightness pattern from AVS, according to its instruction I should bring brightness up until bar 17. Well for 17th bar, the brightness control on JVC goes up to +16 and the images looks super white washed. BTW, the input on my PJ is set to Super White (instead of Auto).

So now I'm trying to findout what's the best way to set Brightness? Clearly AVS pattern is not the right way. What pattern can I use to set brightness properly? Also Javs recommended to increase brightness in Panny becuase it doesn't increase brightness bars but intensify the bars. This means that it will intensify bright parts without smearing it. I don't know what to set for brightness and what pattern to use to see this intensity. He also recommended to use Panny Contrast control.
Sorry about the misunderstanding! When I saw PT, DL and BL I automatically associated it with HDR. Having now carefully read your posts, I too am wondering about your "calibrator." As a band-aid solution while you sort out your calibration stuff, I would suggest you create a picture mode based on zombie's settings here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post39521362
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post #18951 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 06:12 PM
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[quote=atabea;49444817]
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post

Sorry about the misunderstanding! When I saw PT, DL and BL I automatically associated it with HDR. Having now carefully read your posts, I too am wondering about your "calibrator." As a band-aid solution while you sort out your calibration stuff, I would suggest you create a picture mode based on zombie's settings here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post39521362
Can you recommend any pattern to setup Brightness?
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post #18952 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 06:30 PM
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[quote=harrisu;49445041]
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post

Can you recommend any pattern to setup Brightness?
Since you are using the AVSHD disc, and I haven't used that disc in quite some time, IIRC just go into "Basic Settings" and the very first pattern is the brightness pattern. Adjust brightness until you can barely see bar 17. With the JVC, you might have to settle for bar 18 as you will have to raise brightness too much to see 17. Once you set your brightness, skip ahead and adjust your contrast.
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post #18953 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 06:51 PM
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[quote=atabea;49445449]
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post

Since you are using the AVSHD disc, and I haven't used that disc in quite some time, IIRC just go into "Basic Settings" and the very first pattern is the brightness pattern. Adjust brightness until you can barely see bar 17. With the JVC, you might have to settle for bar 18 as you will have to raise brightness too much to see 17. Once you set your brightness, skip ahead and adjust your contrast.
I did that already. By the time I get to 17 or close to it, Brightness control is around +16. This makes the image very washed out. Please note that I'm using Super White as Input and not Default. So this pattern doesn't seem to be working. I does work well for contrast. My contrast is set to 10 where its barely clipping 235.
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post #18954 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 08:19 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post


I did that already. By the time I get to 17 or close to it, Brightness control is around +16. This makes the image very washed out. Please note that I'm using Super White as Input and not Default. So this pattern doesn't seem to be working. I does work well for contrast. My contrast is set to 10 where its barely clipping 235.


Turn off Super White. There is no real reason to be using that. Change input level to standard.

With superwhite off, set your JVC to contrast -1 and brightness +1 and tell us what you see on the black clipping pattern. Bar 18 should be very dim but barely visible. If its not visible try brightness +2.

Make sure the room is dark and you may need to walk up to your screen to see.
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post #18955 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 10:35 PM
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Well?? How did it go with Chads calibration and anything you can share for the Oppo users out there (over the Samsung etc...)?

And... Happy New Year to all my AVS bruthas (thanks for all your help this year... been the most fun I've had for home theater I can ever remember!).!
Happy New Year to you, as well, Kevin. And I agree about the most home theater fun ever!

Since I decided to go the full SDR route (for rec 709 and 2020) I will be using SDR for UHD BD once Oppo has the conversion fix. We didn't get a chance to discuss the Samsung player. But, I am just not willing to lose any contrast with HDR and I really don't like anything past 12-13 ftL in my room. I will also prefer the better 'consistency' with SDR and UHD BD. I haven't had a chance since Chad's cal to watch a lot, but I'm hoping that will change starting tomorrow. But I will say as good as the blacks were on my previous RS4810, there is no question they are now better. I threw in about 15 minutes of Hellboy and wow. It should be a treat re-watching a lot of movies not to mention I had the audio cal with my speakers and subs upgraded. Chad spent about 14 hours at my house between 6 separate video cals (3 for scope, 3 for 16:9) and my audio cal. This should give people just an idea at how hard and meticulously he works at these things.

Here are two cal reports. For rec 709 on scope, with my iris at -12 I'm at 13 ftL and with the iris at -13 I'm at 12.6 ftL. I thought that was interesting how they are nearly identical there for me at those two settings, but things change a lot below that. I'm getting around 100,000:1 native contrast measured with the Klein off the lens; surely a little bit more than that on non scope/16:9 as the iris is closed to -14 for 12.1 ftL (I use the zoom method). I'm using low lamp mode for everything and have about 120 hours on the lamp mostly from letting it just break-in with content and making sure the projector was working fine before the cal.

Rec 2020: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...G9WMnNwc3Z6a00

Rec 709: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...C1YdUtrWFFEYzQ

I'm sure in the upcoming days I will be posting more feedback.
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post #18956 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 10:42 PM
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So I did a little test using the Sony 7669 BT2020 colour primary and secondary patterns on the disc, and manually using those to take meter readings against a BT2020 Colour space but with P3 gamut boxes (Still Based on BT2020 colour so dont worry) so I can see since I did my Autocal last time weather the colour is different between SDR and HDR. And long story short, its not.

What I did was make sure the Iris position was the same in relation to the SDR and HDR tests, obviously I just switched EDID on the Fury for the respective readings, so both were essentially in the mode I would usually watch them in, but I ran both tests in low lamp -4, I usually watch SDRBT2020 in low lamp -8 and HDR in high lamp -4. Regardless this is interesting.

Oh, and its pretty clear now, that I have gamut coverage issues. I am no longer going to chalk it up to user error, or not taking readings right. This thing is missing 8% of the gamut calibrated, end of story, its going back. The most I have ever seen in an uncalibrated state is 93%.

Shame since JVC told me after very long emails to them including measurements like the below that the projectors colour gamut was 'Within Spec' since they never actually published the gamut coverage in the first place (Does anybody have official documentation that the JVCs are supposed to hit nearly 100% P3? I would love something to send them!)... but I don't think I am going to accept that.

Green and Cyan are not where they need to be, they are acting as if there is no filter in the path at all. I know there is though since when I do the same tests with Manni's BT2020NF I get even less gamut. Last thing I need to try though is upload a fresh BT2020 profile in an empty slot and take raw readings from that and see what happens.

Anyway, I can be sure now anyway that colour in SDR vs HDR is no different. Its down to the iris positions and the luminance at the end of the day, not saturation.

SDR BT2020:



HDR BT2020:


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post #18957 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Oh, and its pretty clear now, that I have gamut coverage issues. I am no longer going to chalk it up to user error, or not taking readings right. This thing is missing 8% of the gamut calibrated, end of story, its going back. The most I have ever seen in an uncalibrated state is 93%.

Green and Cyan are not where they need to be, they are acting as if there is no filter in the path at all. I know there is though since when I do the same tests with Manni's BT2020NF I get even less gamut.
Re luminance in HDR vs SDR, this is also what I concluded, especially after a jvc Autocal in my new SDR setting. I now aim for around 100nits for peak white in SDR (similar to what I aimed for in HDR) and cannot see any significant color difference along with my other settings.

Regarding your gamut issue, your unit show a classic undersaturation in green and cyan due to a wrong hue of green. It's all the colors at 100% sat between green and blue which are undersaturated. They would most likely be undersaturated in rec-709 as well, because the green filter pushes the saturation but can't do anything about the wrong hue. The reason why JVC tell you that it's within spec is because it's a very frequent issue, especially in lower end models, especially in the first batches in a production. There is no guarantee that a new unit will not have this issue. It's one of the things to check along with bright corners, convergence, streaking, etc.

I know you're a dealer so you might be able to cherry pick yours, but otherwise if all the other aspects are good, I would think twice before swapping. Unless you can see that colours are wrong, remember that there is very little content at 100% sat (what you measured) except in animation. Most of the content is inside the triangle, not at the edges. If you do a JVC autocal from one of my custom colour profiles, therefore have a gamut tracking near perfection in both rec709 and bt2020, these errors won't show much if at all because the inside of the gamut tracks properly, so colours will not be undersaturated.

Getting a good projector, in my opinion, is getting one that gives you a picture that doesn't show any visible defect with actual content. If you try to swap a unit because you can measure something wrong with patterns or when sticking your nose to the screen, you'll be chasing your tail. I've never seen a perfect unit. I've rejected a few due to stuck pixels in the middle of the screen, otherwise I try to see if I get a good balance between the main offender (bright corners, stuck/dead pixels, undersaturated gamut due to wrong hue, focus/convergence, native contrast, black and white uniformity, etc). If I do, I know it's a small miracle so I keep it if there is nothing that hurts my eyes with actual content from a normal watching distance (1 screen width).
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post #18958 of 32091 Old 12-31-2016, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Re luminance in HDR vs SDR, this is also what I concluded, especially after a jvc Autocal in my new SDR setting. I now aim for around 100nits for peak white in SDR (similar to what I aimed for in HDR) and cannot see any significant color difference along with my other settings.

Regarding your gamut issue, your unit show a classic undersaturation in green and cyan due to a wrong hue of green. It's all the colors at 100% sat between green and blue which are undersaturated. They would most likely be undersaturated in rec-709 as well, because the green filter pushes the saturation but can't do anything about the wrong hue. The reason why JVC tell you that it's within spec is because it's a very frequent issue, especially in lower end models, especially in the first batches in a production. There is no guarantee that a new unit will not have this issue. It's one of the things to check along with bright corners, convergence, streaking, etc.

I know you're a dealer so you might be able to cherry pick yours, but otherwise if all the other aspects are good, I would think twice before swapping. Unless you can see that colours are wrong, remember that there is very little content at 100% sat (what you measured) except in animation. Most of the content is inside the triangle, not at the edges. If you do a JVC autocal from one of my custom colour profiles, therefore have a gamut tracking near perfection in both rec709 and bt2020, these errors won't show much if at all because the inside of the gamut tracks properly, so colours will not be undersaturated.

Getting a good projector, in my opinion, is getting one that gives you a picture that doesn't show any visible defect with actual content. If you try to swap a unit because you can measure something wrong with patterns or when sticking your nose to the screen, you'll be chasing your tail. I've never seen a perfect unit. I've rejected a few due to stuck pixels in the middle of the screen, otherwise I try to see if I get a good balance between the main offender (bright corners, stuck/dead pixels, undersaturated gamut due to wrong hue, focus/convergence, native contrast, black and white uniformity, etc). If I do, I know it's a small miracle so I keep it if there is nothing that hurts my eyes with actual content from a normal watching distance (1 screen width).
Thanks Manni, yeah I haven't seen anything yet that points to green being wrong in real content, just measurements have me scratching my head, especially by looking at your results on your own unit. I am getting basically exactly what you do when you run a scan with no filter engaged.

Also, no matter how much I manipulate hue, or any other CMS control, that green dot does not move any close to where it needs to be, no matter what I do, it only ever moves further away.

The unit is 6 months old btw... hardly early production run, but I get what you are saying. Its also not an RS400... It should be perfect.

Rec709NF by the way is tracking incredibly. Its actually flawless. under 0.6dE everywhere including greyscale, and measured it in 10% saturations, its just perfect. I can get Rec2020 the same way for the most part up until green takes a sharp right turn.

I am probably moving up to the 9500 in a month or so anyway, might just send this one back, since they promised me a free lamp and 3D kit regardless of the issue being confirmed for my trouble. So that will put it in a sellable condition.

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post #18959 of 32091 Old 01-01-2017, 02:24 AM
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What am I missing? If we're not really getting WCG (better color in HDR vs. SDR), we're using a faux-4K projectors (e-shift) to watch mostly 2K DI movies, and don't have the NITS to actually reap the benefits of HDR; what's the point of 4K UHD on the JVCs? Am I missing something or are we just chasing our tails with using a Fury and eeking out minimal improvement at this point? Honestly, I don't see much benefit of UHD over superb upscaled BD on my MadVR enabled HTPC playback. (OK, there's ATMOS, but I "only" have 7.3). Are we just bleeding edge early adopters and mostly just bleeding money?

The JVC is an excellent BD projector, probably the best value for that right now. Am I expecting too much at this point from it and from UHD on it? I was hoping for more.

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post #18960 of 32091 Old 01-01-2017, 02:32 AM
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What am I missing? If we're not really getting WCG (better color in HDR vs. SDR), we're using a faux-4K projectors (e-shift) to watch mostly 2K DI movies, and don't have the NITS to actually reap the benefits of HDR; what's the point of 4K UHD on the JVCs? Am I missing something or are we just chasing our tails with using a Fury and eeking out minimal improvement at this point? Honestly, I don't see much benefit of UHD over superb upscaled BD on my MadVR enabled HTPC playback. (OK, there's ATMOS, but I "only" have 7.3). Are we just bleeding edge early adopters and mostly just bleeding money?



The JVC is an excellent BD projector, probably the best value for that right now. Am I expecting too much at this point from it and from UHD on it? I was hoping for more.


I am not sure what you are getting at, both my comparisons are BT2020, which is to say wide colour gamut.

It was HDR BT2020 @ SDR BT2020

Not SDR Rec709

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