Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 682 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20431 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Yes I misspoke (typed... rushed... was on the road... bad memory without referencing my final results... getting old I guess etc...).

And yes I understand the "basic stuff" as you described in your other post to Stranger (of course 20+ years in the science field will do that to a person ). All I was trying to transparently/admittedly show (poorly I guess), was my ignorance on a screen size like yours that it could get to what I thought was an unattainable number w/ our PJs (cause I just don't live in that realm having had an AT 100+" setup for 15+ of those years).

Here is my last calibration results which should make things clear...

It was already clear after your reply, no worries. I read your post the way you meant it, as not being able to believe, despite your experience, that one could reach more than 200nits even with a puny screen like mine. Hence why I didn't try explain the math to you (I assumed you knew it), but just posted my measurements (along with my screen/room parameters so people knew what made it possible). Stranger89 hit you with the numbers, from the opposite direction
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post #20432 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
Doesn't BT.2390 (which includes how to map 0-10k NIT input to displays with lesser peak output capability) serve as a guideline for HDR until a formal standard is adopted? (not that JVC would adopt it.)

Also, exactly what are displays suppose to do with the peak/average metadata? Especially with dynamic metadata coming. Say a display has a peak capability of 500NITS, and the movie has a scene graded to 2500 NIT peak, followed later by a scene with 500 NIT peak. Are they suppose to impose a limit on the 2500 NIT scene, but then lift it for the 500 NIT scene (because the display has the capability to do the 500 NIT scene)? If so, I hope you can turn that function off! And are there proposals/specs surrounding that potential fiasco?

But I totally agree that JVC seems inept at HDR. And unfortunately, I'm not sure Oppo is much better. (But I do have hope for Oppo.)
I have no idea. The only thing I know is that everything is still in flux, and apart from Dolby Vision there is no standard that does it right yet.

The main questions are when will we get content on UHD Bluray mastered following a properly defined standard for consumer playback (hence not HDR10 in its current implementation) and will it be Dolby Vision, as is rumoured (which won't really help us projector owners, at least for a while) or will it be a better implementation of HDR10 using dynamic metadata? Then, will that properly defined standard be implementable on projectors, or will it be, as the current "standard", only be defined for flat panels, either OLED or LED?

I think the dynamic metadata would be very useful for implementing a proper dynamic iris more than anything else, but right now I'd be very happy with an iris that simply closes down fully when detecting black, giving us a few options regarding the speed of the fade in/out. That they could have done right now.

In any case, I'm waiting for HDMI 2.1 to upgrade, one for dynamic metadata support, two for the increased bandwidth (I know most don't care about it but I do, I want the ability to do 10/12bits 4:4:4 4K/UHD up to 60p for my HTPC).

Frankly I'm not blaming JVC at all, I know what to expect from them, and what they can do they do very well. When there is a properly defined standard that can be implemented in projectors, which won't happen for at least 1-2 years (if it ever does), then hopefully they'll deliver. Until then, we're still seeing prototypes as far as HDR is concerned, they just happen to make them in larger batches than usual .

I should add that I'm super happy with my rs500, which is the best projector I've owned in a long run (rs20, rs50, rs45, rs49, rs500). I'm not counting the couple of non-JVC projectors I had before that.
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Last edited by Manni01; 02-06-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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post #20433 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Part of me wants to take the time to learn how to calibrate the PJ or TVs on my own as part of the hobby... The other part of me doesn't want to invest a ton of money (or time) into learning such things. I'm already busy with keeping my classes fresh (i teach math and computer science) as well as working on my guitar skills and rehearsing with my band ... OH and I'd like to watch a movie once and a while too There are only so many hours in a day.

Chad money is already set aside and I guess i'm just antsy to improve my PQ in anticipation of what wizardy will be performed when finally does arrive.

As of now the only calibration I've done is Zombies out of box settings and bumped brightness to +2 for REC709 using the AVS 709HD black clipping pattern. I set my Iris to -7 Auto2... using my eyes. I'm thinking of getting a light meter just to be able to get my picture at 16fL and to be able to monitor any bulb dimming. Though I can't imagine I would modify lens aperture or brightness on a dimming bulb after Chad has calibrated.... or would I?

Well... although it can be "fun" to calibrate I will tell you doing it for yeeeears now it does require an investment of time (although AutoCal has significantly reduced that after the initial required/dedicated learning curve hours you'll burn), and after I see what Chad is able to do I came to two irrefutable conclusions... 1) I will never ever be able to acquire the skills to get to this level of quality... 2) I could have done this yeeeears ago and not wasted countless (futile), hours & money!

My advice given what you wrote is buy the light meter and wait for Chad and spend your more valuable time (and money), on your other craft so when you do make time for a movie you can just sit back and enjoy it (instead of always analyzing the movie and constantly saying to yourself "did I do this right??"... "could that be better??"... "maybe I should stop the movie and just run a "quick" recalibration..." which never ends BTW! )!


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post #20434 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by alpin3r View Post
To the gamers out there.. what are the settings on the RS500 that best minimize input lag? Disabling eShift and CMD obviously, but is there anything else major?
I know this is by no means a gaming projector, but I do occasionally do very light gaming with friends, nothing competitive, no FPS
CMD is the only thing that significantly affects the input lag, it adds something like 20ms. 130ms is about the minimum possible. I posted numbers, probably in the RS4910 thread.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
That's exactly what's need, Ypeak. And yes it's not enough for Dolby because the end user can and will screw that measurement up, or will enter anything they want to "experiment", which means that we won't be seeing Dobly Vision. This is why I said that the only hope for DV on projectors was to have an internal meter, like on the Sony 4K PJs, so that the PJ can measure and add up to what it knows (iris setting, lamp mode, zoom factor etc) to make the precise calculations.
I guess I get it, but at the same time it's disappointing/silly. I do have some (very very small) hope that projector manufacturers will add that for "HDR10", even without DV. Though that's why a Radiance Pro is on my wish list, seems the only realistic hope for quality HDR on projectors.

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The new models bring nothing that we can't get with the current ones, they just make it simpler and they add labels. They are still not able to take into account the way the content has been mastered, or to enable the DI , which are the two things that make HDR a pain on the JVCs. It's not easy to imagine that if they are unable to make things fundamentally better on the new models (it's not changing 10000nits to a fixed 2000nits that changes anything, it's still a fixed approximation for something that isn't fixed). You can get EXACTLY the same results setting a user mode with gamma D and the correct parameters. The fact that they haven't even "reset" the gamma D settings but are keeping more or less the same ones is adding insult to injury. I'm not even sure if the raised black levels issue is solved in the new models.
Arguably the biggest problem is the broken Dark Level control, that raises the black level if set above +2. They really should have at least fixed that.

Quote:
Really? They are not embarrassed to sell a broken CMS (although since Autocal we doen't need an external solution to get a decent calibration), or to ship high-end models with bright corners or convergence issues, so what makes you think any of this would embarrass them? There are three issues: 1) marketing rules 2) bean counters rule and 3) their knowledge of calibration is VERY limited. They simply don't understand this, so it makes it more difficult for them to fix it. They do make great projectors though, but calibration isn't their forte. They are always 2-3 years behind the curve.
All those would embarass me, but I'm well aware of schedule, budget, and knowledge issues in development, I deal with them every day. Also I never said I expected it fixed immediately, or even in the current models, just that if it were my product, I wouldn't just "give up" like you implied they could, because Lumagen/Panasonic/Oppo have a bandaid. Sure the RS600 and RS620 have shipped and are done, but JVC shouldn't, nor should we let them, give up on HDR for their future models. There is some evidence they're working on it, as the "DI" is available on the RS4500 for HDR.

And not to dispute that, but the HDR brokenness is a much bigger issue than the others IMO. Bright corners seem to have been improved (judging by the drop in chatter) from the early models. CMS, while important, doesn't smack you in the face out of the box. On the RS500/600, you can't even get close to reasonable HDR performance with the out of the box settings, you have to use settings in a paper that I wouldn't even know about if it weren't for this forum (well I'm sure Craig probably told me too), and even those aren't really good settings to use.

If whatever replaces the RSx20's has the same HDR problems, I'd say that's a big problem, JVC needs to do something before their next product refresh. It's not like they're the first or anything.

Quote:
I don't let JVC off the hook, I'm just realistic. They never fix anything they don't have to, and they never provide new features through f/w upgrade. They simply don't have the competence, the resources and the knowledge (not to mention the will) to fix anything in relation to HDR as it is implemented (ie without a finished standard). They will produce something decent (hopefully) when there is a working standard for projectors. Lumagen, Oppo and Panasonic have engineers who do understand calibration issues. JVC don't.
Maybe that's where the wires are crossed, I'm not expecting any changes to come from JVC for my RS600, or even for the RSx20's. I just don't think we should be letting them off the hook and saying the current situation is OK. This is yet another reason why a Lumagen is on my wish list, I really don't expect great HDR from JVC, or anyone else for that matter. My RS600 is great, from a raw picture quality perspective, there's really very little I'm left wanting.

A Radiance Pro should solve the HDR problems, and guarantee excellent results for not just my RS600, but any projector I upgrade to in the future and any source I add. And that's really key, while it's great what Pansonic and Oppo are doing, they have a fatal flaw in that it only applies to their internal player, and not streaming apps. As HDR continues to gain steam with streaming, not having a good HDR display solution is going to be a bigger and bigger problem, and streaming apps and streaming devices are always stripped down, bottom of the barrel when it comes to video processing.

And FWIW, I'm speaking with my $'s, I'd have upgraded to a RSx20 from my RS600 if they'd have actually done something to fix HDR. That and the input lag are my gripes with my RS600, they got one, but not the other, so here I sit, with my RS600, and I'll probably keep sitting on it. If they bring out laser, I might change my mind, we'll see what the consensus is when/if that happens. But I highly doubt (and I've probably said this before) that I'll get another lamp based JVC, especially if they don't fix HDR.
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post #20435 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:38 PM
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forgive me if this is stupid:

I currently have a calibrated rs600, and just got a rs620. Is there any way I can just take my calibration results and copy them over to my 620 since its the same projector? Or do i need to pay to have it calibrated again.

Thanks
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post #20436 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:43 PM
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Oh man! If ONLY it were that simple...


Sorry, but it will require a new calibration. Good news that since you have both and the RS600 was recently calibrated, you can set up a side-by-side to, at least, eyeball it to... while you wait for your pro calibration!
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post #20437 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have no idea. The only thing I know is that everything is still in flux, and apart from Dolby Vision there is no standard that does it right yet.

The main questions are when will we get content on UHD Bluray mastered following a properly defined standard for consumer playback (hence not HDR10 in its current implementation) and will it be Dolby Vision, as is rumoured (which won't really help us projector owners, at least for a while) or will it be a better implementation of HDR10 using dynamic metadata? Then, will that properly defined standard be implementable on projectors, or will it be, as the current "standard", only be defined for flat panels, either OLED or LED?

I think the dynamic metadata would be very useful for implementing a proper dynamic iris more than anything else, but right now I'd be very happy with an iris that simply closes down fully when detecting black, giving us a few options regarding the speed of the fade in/out. That they could have done right now.

In any case, I'm waiting for HDMI 2.1 to upgrade, one for dynamic metadata support, two for the increased bandwidth (I know most don't care about it but I do, I want the ability to do 10/12bits 4:4:4 4K/UHD up to 60p for my HTPC).

Frankly I'm not blaming JVC at all, I know what to expect from them, and what they can do they do very well. When there is a properly defined standard that can be implemented in projectors, which won't happen for at least 1-2 years (if it ever does), then hopefully they'll deliver. Until then, we're still seeing prototypes as far as HDR is concerned, they just happen to make them in larger batches than usual .

I should add that I'm super happy with my rs500, which is the best projector I've owned in a long run (rs20, rs50, rs45, rs49, rs500). I'm not counting the couple of non-JVC projectors I had before that.

Do you think chip upgrades would be required on our Denon's to support this Manni (or could they do this from a software perspective... I think I already know the answer but wanted your take).

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post #20438 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
forgive me if this is stupid:

I currently have a calibrated rs600, and just got a rs620. Is there any way I can just take my calibration results and copy them over to my 620 since its the same projector? Or do i need to pay to have it calibrated again.

Thanks


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post #20439 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 03:03 PM
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can anyone recommend a calibrator local to Philadelphia? I have one i've been using, but i guess it wouldnt hurt to ask in case some of you have great experiences with calibrated JVCs.
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post #20440 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Do you think chip upgrades would be required on our Denon's to support this Manni (or could they do this from a software perspective... I think I already know the answer but wanted your take).
They could implement some HDMI 2.1 features in software (like the ability to pass-through dynamic metadata in the next implementation of HDR10). This is what Lumagen plans to do on the Radiance Pro (support HDMI 2.1 features through software, without the need for a hardware change). I don't think they will do it (they need to sell more hardware, like anyone else) but they could.

They will not be able to handle the increased bandwidth without a hardware change though, and I doubt that it will happen with Denon as our flagship models should be updated at the end of 2017, precisely to take advantage of the new standard, if not at launch at least shortly afterwards, like they did with the 2.0a/HDCP 2.2. upgrade on our models. I just hope they won't stop supporting our front wides like they did with the 2106 range. If they do I'm not sure I'll upgrade at all. Now that we can apply Neural:X to Dolby tracks, I disable my back surrounds when I play a 5.1 track to get 5.1.4 (FH+RH)+wides with Neural:X. I much prefer the wides in that case than the addition of the back surrounds, as I have RH speakers which give good enough back coverage when there is no real SB in the mix.

We will have to upgrade the whole chain again to make the most of the new standard (source, AVR, switch, display/PJ, cables), which is why all my upgrades are "frozen" until the end of 2017, possibly 2018. I'm not buying anything that's not HDMI 2.1 compliant, with full bandwidth, because I plan to keep every upgrade at least 3 years. I'm not upgrading anything until HDR is "fixed", which means it has to be defined by the industry first, which will take a while...

I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes, the RS500 in SDR BT2020 with the Panny/Integral combo and the X7200WA give me full satisfaction in the meantime
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post #20441 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
They could implement some HDMI 2.1 features in software (like the ability to pass-through dynamic metadata in the next implementation of HDR10). This is what Lumagen plans to do on the Radiance Pro (support HDMI 2.1 features through software, without the need for a hardware change). I don't think they will do it (they need to sell more hardware, like anyone else) but they could.

They will not be able to handle the increased bandwidth without a hardware change though, and I doubt that it will happen with Denon as our flagship models should be updated at the end of 2017, precisely to take advantage of the new standard, if not at launch at least shortly afterwards, like they did with the 2.0a/HDCP 2.2. upgrade on our models. I just hope they won't stop supporting our front wides like they did with the 2106 range. If they do I'm not sure I'll upgrade at all. Now that we can apply Neural:X to Dolby tracks, I disable my back surrounds when I play a 5.1 track to get 5.1.4 (FH+RH)+wides with Neural:X. I much prefer the wides in that case than the addition of the back surrounds, as I have RH speakers which give good enough back coverage when there is no real SB in the mix.

We will have to upgrade the whole chain again to make the most of the new standard (source, AVR, switch, display/PJ, cables), which is why all my upgrades are "frozen" until the end of 2017, possibly 2018. I'm not buying anything that's not HDMI 2.1 compliant, with full bandwidth, because I plan to keep every upgrade at least 3 years. I'm not upgrading anything until HDR is "fixed", which means it has to be defined by the industry first, which will take a while...

I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes, the RS500 in SDR BT2020 with the Panny/Integral combo and the X7200WA give me full satisfaction in the meantime
It certainly looks outstanding now. I'm also not happy to lose wide channel ability, so I'm going to get as many years use out of my X7200WA as I can.
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post #20442 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
This is really great info Steve thx for sharing (getting a little excited to know the slider function even in beta, is just around the corner! ). Since you brought up settings for HDR on the Oppo I'd like to get some insight from the Oppo users on an observation I've made. It seems to me (accidentally discovered), the comment from Oppo on lifting Br to +8 for SDR may have been (should have been?), universal for the player whether or not you strip meta (HDR & SDR)? I ask because last week while watching Girl on the Train in HDR I mistakenly left my User2 setting for SDR engaged from a prev session (I have a macro in iRule for each setting and added the User mode to each button but it must not have worked that time). I kept thinking what a good looking mastering job done on this disc but then discovered my "mistake". I have since been comparing this over the past week more closely and keep feeling like the +8 Br setting is much better in HDR than the base '0' settings. FFWD to last night when watching Jack Reacher I used a scene right at the beginning as my comparative between the two and sure enough it was much better to help alleviate the black crush detected. It's the night scene where the cop is talking to the guys who just got their arses kicked! by Reacher and he turns to the camera with his black hat & coat to look into the diner where Reacher is sitting at the counter. Using base settings his hat is just crushed (no delineations of shadow detail whatsoever), but switching to User2 SDR I find I can just make them out without seemingly doing any harm to the background night landscape (Ct -1 BTW). Also evident throughout in the hotel scenes between Reacher and the smoking' hot Major Turner [Cobie Smulders], where their hair is just basically a black blob in HDR against the bright hotel backlighting, without lifting Br to SDR levels.

Anyone else experiencing this (or can test out these scenes and report back), or talk on the bullet train Oppo owners forum?

So, Kev, I had some time to look at the scenes from Jack Reacher 2 that you mentioned yesterday. I viewed in HDR (with and without the “+8 brightness”), SDR BT2020 (with and without the +8 brightness), as well as re-measure what the OPPO was doing when in Strip Meta Data mode, with and without +8 brightness. Please note that I am using a cheap-as& phone camera and the images are NOT indicative of what I am actually seeing on screen.

Here is a picture of the OPPO in HDR mode with default settings.

Click image for larger version

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Here is the same scene in HDR mode with +8 brightness

Click image for larger version

Name:	Oppo HDR with +8 Brightness.jpg
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Although the +8 brightness (in HDR Mode) does "lighten" things up, it ultimately produces the odd effect of resolving information below black, which will inevitably produce a washed out picture. I didn't snap a picture when I measured, but it was resolving information below black (bar 29 or -4% black).

Here is a picture in Strip Meta Data mode and default settings (brightness at 0)

Click image for larger version

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.....And Strip Meta Data Mode with +8 brightness

Click image for larger version

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And just for comparison, here is a shot of the Panasonic in SDR BT2020

Click image for larger version

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When in Strip Mode and with the recommended boost in brightness to +8, the 203 is clipping everything under 7% black (bar 125). When left at default, it is clipping way above 10 % (bar 156)

Here it Strip Meta Data with +8 brightness on the Mascior test pattern.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Oppo Strip +8 Brightness.jpg
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In SDR BT2020 mode, the Panasonic is able to resolve black all the way down to bar 68 or .5% black and that, I believe, is where the Panasonic maintains its edge in this mode.

With the +8 brightness, the 203 produces a very watchable picture in Strip mode, but it certainly is a couple of steps behind the UB900 due to crushed blacks in the lower registers.

Having spent another five hours evaluating these two players, which both are truly great, I will maintain that the Oppo has the (subtle but noticeable) edge in HDR while the Panasonic definitely leads in HDR conversion.

Again, the images I am seeing on screen are spectacular and the attached photos just aren't even close.
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post #20443 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
So, Kev, I had some time to look at the scenes from Jack Reacher 2 that you mentioned yesterday. I viewed in HDR (with and without the “+8 brightness”), SDR BT2020 (with and without the +8 brightness), as well as re-measure what the OPPO was doing when in Strip Meta Data mode, with and without +8 brightness. Please note that I am using a cheap-as& phone camera and the images are NOT indicative of what I am actually seeing on screen.

Here is a picture of the OPPO in HDR mode with default settings.

Attachment 1949185


Here is the same scene in HDR mode with +8 brightness

Attachment 1949201

Although the +8 brightness (in HDR Mode) does "lighten" things up, it ultimately produces the odd effect of resolving information below black, which will inevitably produce a washed out picture. I didn't snap a picture when I measured, but it was resolving information below black (bar 29 or -4% black).

Here is a picture in Strip Meta Data mode and default settings (brightness at 0)

Attachment 1949305

.....And Strip Meta Data Mode with +8 brightness

Attachment 1949345

And just for comparison, here is a shot of the Panasonic in SDR BT2020

Attachment 1949385


When in Strip Mode and with the recommended boost in brightness to +8, the 203 is clipping everything under 7% black (bar 125). When left at default, it is clipping way above 10 % (bar 156)

Here it Strip Meta Data with +8 brightness on the Mascior test pattern.

Attachment 1949233


In SDR BT2020 mode, the Panasonic is able to resolve black all the way down to bar 68 or .5% black and that, I believe, is where the Panasonic maintains its edge in this mode.

With the +8 brightness, the 203 produces a very watchable picture in Strip mode, but it certainly is a couple of steps behind the UB900 due to crushed blacks in the lower registers.

Having spent another five hours evaluating these two players, which both are truly great, I will maintain that the Oppo has the (subtle but noticeable) edge in HDR while the Panasonic definitely leads in HDR conversion.

Again, the images I am seeing on screen are spectacular and the attached photos just aren't even close.
Aand this is why I wont be upgrading my UHD player any time soon. SDR BT2020 is perfect, and I am not really interested in spending hours and hours trying to tweak a third UHD player... The Panny is doing it all as it is right now.

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post #20444 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 09:00 PM
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@atabea will you post this test in the Oppo thread too? Or even share directly with Oppo? This is a very good real world example of what they need to work on.....
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post #20445 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
@atabea will you post this test in the Oppo thread too? Or even share directly with Oppo? This is a very good real world example of what they need to work on.....
I just posted a condensed version in the OPPO thread, focusing on the Strip Meta Data function.
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post #20446 of 31985 Old 02-06-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
...When in Strip Mode and with the recommended boost in brightness to +8, the 203 is clipping everything under 7% black (bar 125). When left at default, it is clipping way above 10 % (bar 156)...
I get the same results using the Masciola pattern with my Oppo and RS500.
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post #20447 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Many posts have referred to the Panasonic UHD player as being far superior to the (current firmware) Oppo UHD player in terms of converting to SDR BT.2020 via the Integral's EDID 10 (or similar mechanism). I'd appreciate opinions of where in that spectrum the current Samsung and Philips UHD players would be positioned with a similar route to WCG SDR BT.2020. Thanks!
I would also be interested in information on this question. I saw a similar post in the Panasonic UB900 forum, but didn't see any replies there.

So - anybody here with any experience/information/knowledge on how well the Philips BDP7501 and Integral Fury combo compare with the Panasonic UB900 and Integral Fury combo in converting HDR to SDR/BT2020?

And if so, what player settings in the Philips are optimal?

Thanks.

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post #20448 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
can anyone recommend a calibrator local to Philadelphia? I have one i've been using, but i guess it wouldnt hurt to ask in case some of you have great experiences with calibrated JVCs.
I believe ChadB travels your way. Probably be worth contacting his scheduler to find out.
Congrats on the RS620. It will be interesting to see if the newer versions help with motion for regular viewing and just not video games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Aand this is why I wont be upgrading my UHD player any time soon. SDR BT2020 is perfect, and I am not really interested in spending hours and hours trying to tweak a third UHD player... The Panny is doing it all as it is right now.
+2...My system is dialed in and I am not going to change any components the rest of 2017.
(Unless something craps out, which is shouldn't since everything is rather new.)
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post #20449 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

My advice given what you wrote is buy the light meter and wait for Chad and spend your more valuable time (and money), on your other craft so when you do make time for a movie you can just sit back and enjoy it (instead of always analyzing the movie and constantly saying to yourself "did I do this right??"... "could that be better??"... "maybe I should stop the movie and just run a "quick" recalibration..." which never ends BTW! )!

Alright, I grabbed the 'inexpensive' Dr.Meter item you suggested earlier. I found another thread that shows how to calculate fL, i know my way around a formula Pretty sure I have the 100 IRE pattern from the AVS 709 disc as well.

Question: So after Chad does his thing, do I continue to take meter readings and look for bulb dimming? If I notice bulb dimming, do I adjust iris to accommodate for the loss of lumens and will that mess up the calibration? After the initial calibration, i'm not against having him come back for touchups -- I guess I'm just wondering what else I can do with my new toy-- uhm Lux Meter

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post #20450 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 06:38 AM
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Is anyone using the 500/600 with an Black Diamond Zero edge 1.4 screen? If so, how's the combo? I'm looking to follow this thread as I've given up on the 6040ub. Hopefully one of these will be a better choice.

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post #20451 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 06:50 AM
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I am still waiting on the bugs to be worked out on the Oppo. Does anyone have an update on the 4K SDR BT2020 performance? Has there been another firmware upgrade? I would like to move forward with a purchase. Thanks
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post #20452 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 06:53 AM
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[QUOTE=COACH2369;50554273]I believe ChadB travels your way. Probably be worth contacting his scheduler to find out.
Congrats on the RS620. It will be interesting to see if the newer versions help with motion for regular viewing and just not video games.


Can you, or anyone else, PM me with Chads info
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post #20453 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 07:04 AM
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[quote=Naylorman32;50556225]
Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I believe ChadB travels your way. Probably be worth contacting his scheduler to find out.
Congrats on the RS620. It will be interesting to see if the newer versions help with motion for regular viewing and just not video games.


Can you, or anyone else, PM me with Chads info
PM sent.
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post #20454 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
They could implement some HDMI 2.1 features in software (like the ability to pass-through dynamic metadata in the next implementation of HDR10). This is what Lumagen plans to do on the Radiance Pro (support HDMI 2.1 features through software, without the need for a hardware change). I don't think they will do it (they need to sell more hardware, like anyone else) but they could.

They will not be able to handle the increased bandwidth without a hardware change though, and I doubt that it will happen with Denon as our flagship models should be updated at the end of 2017, precisely to take advantage of the new standard, if not at launch at least shortly afterwards, like they did with the 2.0a/HDCP 2.2. upgrade on our models. I just hope they won't stop supporting our front wides like they did with the 2106 range. If they do I'm not sure I'll upgrade at all. Now that we can apply Neural:X to Dolby tracks, I disable my back surrounds when I play a 5.1 track to get 5.1.4 (FH+RH)+wides with Neural:X. I much prefer the wides in that case than the addition of the back surrounds, as I have RH speakers which give good enough back coverage when there is no real SB in the mix.

We will have to upgrade the whole chain again to make the most of the new standard (source, AVR, switch, display/PJ, cables), which is why all my upgrades are "frozen" until the end of 2017, possibly 2018. I'm not buying anything that's not HDMI 2.1 compliant, with full bandwidth, because I plan to keep every upgrade at least 3 years. I'm not upgrading anything until HDR is "fixed", which means it has to be defined by the industry first, which will take a while...

I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes, the RS500 in SDR BT2020 with the Panny/Integral combo and the X7200WA give me full satisfaction in the meantime
Pretty good chance, buying now will give you three years, if waiting until everything is 2.1 compliant. Might not happen until 2019 CEDIA.
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post #20455 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 07:55 AM
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Pretty good chance, buying now will give you three years, if waiting until everything is 2.1 compliant. Might not happen until 2019 CEDIA.
HDMI 2.1 will be implemented in hardware at the end of 2017, the specs are out and the first devices are expected by the end of the year. I will gradually replace my equipment, and won't replace anything that's not 2.1 compatible. It might take 1-2 years to upgrade the whole chain, but I don't want to buy something that won't support a format that does matter to me (especially re HDR10 with dynamic metadata and the increased bandwidth). If these aspects don't matter, for example if people are super happy with HDR10 the way it is now, or don't care about HDR at all, or if they only care about 24p content, or if they want to play with UHD/HDR/Atmos without waiting because they still have old gear, then of course buy now.

But I have a great rs500, an excellent X7200W and a Panny UB900 that allow me to play with HDR and get as much of it as I can. Why would I upgrade to get something that isn't better? When I see a model with a better HDR implementation (by this I don't mean a new factory preset with the same fixed approximate settings I can put manually in one of my user presets), with a DI or laser dimming enabled in HDR so I get decent fade to blacks, and no raised black floor in gamma D, for a price I can justify, then I'll be happy to upgrade. My rs500 is only 10 months old, nothing wrong living with it 1-2 more years until things settle down.

I don't mind putting more money to get better, but I want something for my money. So I'm waiting for JVC to actually improve their models, instead of shipping the same one with a f/w update and a low lag mode
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post #20456 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 08:18 AM
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can anyone recommend a calibrator local to Philadelphia? I have one i've been using, but i guess it wouldnt hurt to ask in case some of you have great experiences with calibrated JVCs.
So I assume you only started following this owners thread yesterday and didn't take note of all the shoutouts for @Chad B fr the past 6 months?

He travels the country throughout the year and his JVC stylings are second to none IMO (a lot of opinions too).
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post #20457 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
But I have a great rs500, an excellent X7200W and a Panny UB900 that allow me to play with HDR and get as much of it as I can. Why would I upgrade to get something that isn't better? When I see a model with a better HDR implementation (by this I don't mean a new factory preset with the same fixed approximate settings I can put manually in one of my user presets), with a DI or laser dimming enabled in HDR so I get decent fade to blacks, and no raised black floor in gamma D, for a price I can justify, then I'll be happy to upgrade. My rs500 is only 10 months old, nothing wrong living with it 1-2 more years until things settle down.

I don't mind putting more money to get better, but I want something for my money. So I'm waiting for JVC to actually improve their models, instead of shipping the same one with a f/w update and a low lag mode
This might be the first time i'm glad I bought a projector with the 5 year warranty. I've seen about a dozen RS500/600's, my particular copy is A++, best factory convergence I've seen in years and excellent edge to edge focus on my 142".

RS600/UB900/X7200/ATMOS/18" Sub combo is going to hold me over for a while until the next big thing happens in a few years.

We watched Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children in 3D the other night..(this is not a kids movie..) amazing overall presentation for video and sound. Highly recommended to check out.
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post #20458 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
HDMI 2.1 will be implemented in hardware at the end of 2017, the specs are out and the first devices are expected by the end of the year. I will gradually replace my equipment, and won't replace anything that's not 2.1 compatible. It might take 1-2 years to upgrade the whole chain, but I don't want to buy something that won't support a format that does matter to me (especially re HDR10 with dynamic metadata and the increased bandwidth). If these aspects don't matter, for example if people are super happy with HDR10 the way it is now, or don't care about HDR at all, or if they only care about 24p content, or if they want to play with UHD/HDR/Atmos without waiting because they still have old gear, then of course buy now.

But I have a great rs500, an excellent X7200W and a Panny UB900 that allow me to play with HDR and get as much of it as I can. Why would I upgrade to get something that isn't better? When I see a model with a better HDR implementation (by this I don't mean a new factory preset with the same fixed approximate settings I can put manually in one of my user presets), with a DI or laser dimming enabled in HDR so I get decent fade to blacks, and no raised black floor in gamma D, for a price I can justify, then I'll be happy to upgrade. My rs500 is only 10 months old, nothing wrong living with it 1-2 more years until things settle down.

I don't mind putting more money to get better, but I want something for my money. So I'm waiting for JVC to actually improve their models, instead of shipping the same one with a f/w update and a low lag mode
Yes, since you have an RS500, I can see your point. I am more referring to those that have a projector prior to RS400/500/600 series. For me, HDR is plug and play using Oppo 203 and RS4500 and looks pretty good.
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post #20459 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 08:59 AM
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Zombie, Krichter1, Deja Vu, etc.....first off, hope all is well! Need a bit of help.....have an RS520 on the way to replace my 5 year old (can't believe it's been 5 years?!) RS45 and had a few initial questions......

Zombie, Krichter1, Deja Vu, etc.....first off, hope all is well! Need a bit of help.....have an RS520 on the way to replace my 5 year old (can't believe it's been 5 years?!) RS45 and had a few initial questions......

1. What is the general consensus as far as best 3d glasses/emitter for me and my HP 2.8 screen which retains no polarization? Wanted to get these ordered up and looking forward to checking out the much improved 3d vs my 45!

Wow are YOU in for a treat dude! If your screen does not retain polar ice caps then you can save Moolah and buy the Xpand X105's which are the same version of the OEMs (just opposed polarity)... I have 8 out of my 10 of this model (the other two are OEM... no diff!)

2. Are there some general out of box settings that are considered universally good? Only concerned with blu ray right now as I don't have a UHD player yet.

Look for a Zombie10K (Jason), post and click on his link for best settings w/ out using AutoCal (which you should else get Chad out there to Pro calibrate long term!)


I'll be picking your brains on other things over the weeks if that's cool, but if you could line me out on those 2 things initially I would greatly appreciate it!

What up Todd (long time my brutha!)!

Sorry I did see it late at night then got busy yesterday with a work "fire" then just plain forgot (gotta stop smoking bowls at night!).

Answers in bold above my brutha (and congrats on finally finding your wallet to be able to upgrade... you'll be saying "why the hell didn't I do this earlier!"... better late than never... Enjoy (I know what pushed you over the edge was b/c of gaming lag so share your impressions once you give the PJ a good Rodgering!)!

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post #20460 of 31985 Old 02-07-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
So, Kev, I had some time to look at the scenes from Jack Reacher 2 that you mentioned yesterday. I viewed in HDR (with and without the “+8 brightness”), SDR BT2020 (with and without the +8 brightness), as well as re-measure what the OPPO was doing when in Strip Meta Data mode, with and without +8 brightness. Please note that I am using a cheap-as& phone camera and the images are NOT indicative of what I am actually seeing on screen.


When in Strip Mode and with the recommended boost in brightness to +8, the 203 is clipping everything under 7% black (bar 125). When left at default, it is clipping way above 10 % (bar 156)


In SDR BT2020 mode, the Panasonic is able to resolve black all the way down to bar 68 or .5% black and that, I believe, is where the Panasonic maintains its edge in this mode.

With the +8 brightness, the 203 produces a very watchable picture in Strip mode, but it certainly is a couple of steps behind the UB900 due to crushed blacks in the lower registers.

Having spent another five hours evaluating these two players, which both are truly great, I will maintain that the Oppo has the (subtle but noticeable) edge in HDR while the Panasonic definitely leads in HDR conversion.

Again, the images I am seeing on screen are spectacular and the attached photos just aren't even close.

Thanks for doing this Rick! WowEE! I can definitely see how much better the Panny is in SDR for black so I can only hope Oppo is well aware of their black crush issue and will be fixed soon too (along w/ the slider!). If not I'll be going back to the UB900 soon! When I use Masciola I can not get down past 7.5% no matter what I change on the JVC or Oppo (anyone else have a workaround??).

Steve or Kris - are they [Oppo] aware of this issue and planning a fix soon too??

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