Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 692 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20731 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Dude... I consider myself a fairly switched on guy, but seriously, reading your posts, I dont know if its you or me, but this stuff from you, every time its just SO difficult to read through... Is anybody else feeling this? Carbon, are you seriously over thinking and over complicating things here?

Am I alone in thinking this?

I just want to understand without having to read your posts five times? Is there anyway to do that without resorting to Y's, MTO's MCust1's etc... I need some kind of legend chart to get through your posts dude!

If we have a 100nit peak white capable projector, based on what we know re the graphs I have submitted previously which actually show in a real waveform that MOST of the image is all happening at under 100nits, Why cant we map the HDR gamma from 0 to 100 nits to 0-75 nits on the display using the multiplier, then take the last 25nits and using that for all the headroom above 100nits on the ST2084 curve?

Is that a stupid idea?
No, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with my curves

I only use my last effective control point (80% or around 1200nits) to adjust the roll-off from 70% (around 800nits), but others could also use the 70% or even the 60% control point (240nits) if they wanted to start rolling off earlier. I wouldn't suggest rolling off before 50% (100nits).

This is why I don't like the idea of the ST2390 curve, it starts rolling off way too early to my taste.
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Last edited by Manni01; 02-13-2017 at 04:50 AM.
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post #20732 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Dude... I consider myself a fairly switched on guy, but seriously, reading your posts, I dont know if its you or me, but this stuff from you, every time its just SO difficult to read through... Is anybody else feeling this? Carbon, are you seriously over thinking and over complicating things here?

Am I alone in thinking this?
You are very not alone in thinking that.

(Though it's always appreciated when members make that much effort to share their results).
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post #20733 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 05:27 AM
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More thoughts on target / roll-off

I'll try to clarify my thoughts on the relationship between the multiplier and the roll-off point. Please skip if you don't understand the basic of gamma calibration

1000nits is 75%.

So let's say we had 100nits peak white on the calibrating display and wanted to target 1000nits (10X multiplier).

By using only the 80% control point for the roll-off, it means that I map 1:1 until 70% (70nits real, 700nits content) and fit the content above 700nits into the remaining 70-100 nits available on the display.

If you wanted to start rolling off earlier, you'd have to use a lower control point, but you would lose contrast unless you use a smaller multiplier.

For example, if you used a multiplier of 5 instead, you would target 500nits (like an OLED screen) which means you would be clipping content at 500nits without a roll-off, so between 60% (240nits) and 70% (800nits). In that case, you would need to use the 70% control point as well to start rolling off from 60%. Otherwise, you would be clipping content above 500nits if you only use the 80% control point, which can only have an impact on 800nits and above by itself (assuming 70% is on target, ie is already clipping). Doing this would certainly brighten the picture over targeting 1000nits. It would be too bright for my screen, but it might be what Carbon and others with large screens and smaller gains need.

Again, I could be entirely wrong as I haven't checked this out, but that's the way I see it. This is why I think that the actual peakY used on the calibrating display has less impact on the actual brightness of the picture than the multiplier and target once the curve is applied. That's why the same curve scales well between my high lamp and low lamp modes, or with other users with a similar set-up / environment (mainly dedicated rooms with enough contrast and brightness to resolve the low end). This is also why I believe it proves the custom gamma we use on the JVC is a relative S-curve, not an absolute PQ curve, otherwise it shouldn't scale at all (if the levels were absolute).

So in high lamp, say with an actual peak of 200nits on the calibrating display, you use a multiplier of 5 for average screens (target 1000nits), a smaller multiplier for larger screens (target below 1000nits) and a larger multiplier for smaller screens (target above 1000nits). The larger the multiplier, the dimmer the screen and the harder it is to see the shadow detail. The smaller the multiplier, the earlier you have to roll-off, otherwise you clip the highlights.

In low lamp, with an actual peak of 100nits (to simplify), you would use a multiplier of 10 for an average screen (target 1000nits), 8 or below for a larger screen (target 800nits) and 12 for a smaller screen (target 1200nits).

Given that there is little content above 1000nits, I think it makes more sense to target 1000-1100nits (or lower for dimmer screens) and use a roll-off to take care of the very top of the curve for titles mastered above that.

I'm sharing this as I'm processing this based on experimenting with these various curves in my setup, again I could be entirely wrong.
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Last edited by Manni01; 02-13-2017 at 05:38 AM.
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post #20734 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Asharma, running the JVC Autocal is one of the single most important steps u can take toward getting HDR right, as it internally calibrates all your Gamma including Gamma D. The relatively small investment in a spyder 5 is well worth it.
What are all of the meter options that are supported for JVC Autocal to work? I have an old meter (SpectraCal X-RITE I1) when I was trying to learn CalMan (my video knowledge is well below the lowest of the low) but gave up. Would this work?
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post #20735 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 06:23 AM
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What are all of the meter options that are supported for JVC Autocal to work?
Spyder 5...
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post #20736 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 07:33 AM
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Please help with a few glitches.

My setup is a Panny UB900, Denon 4300H, Integral to JVC (520). I have watched 3 full movies so far and all three had 1 minor glitch each. Two had a moment very early on that the JVC appeared to lose sync (screen went black for short time (maybe 10 seconds)). Another had a border show up on the right edge (seemed about 2" wide on my 119" diagonal screen) that looked blurred looking like edge noise. The first two resolved themselves and the last I hit stop and play and it went away. So some questions:

1) Is this most likely the HDMI cables? It does sync with 4K60P and I am using cables I got with the Integral (6 feet each).
2) How many bypass the receiver with the video and go straight to the projector from player? Any other Denon 4300 users that can verify no issues in their setup?
3) I added audio delay (manual) to the Denon. This might have started after that (all my viewing before was when setting up / simple calibration and did not see any issues during that time).

Any other likely culprits?

It seems the two "sync" issues were at approximately the same time into each movie - I may have to try and figure out exactly as that might point to the audio delay? It completed the remainder of the movie with no issues.

I do have other "certified" cables to try but it is rare enough that only over time would I know if it was the cables unless someone knows a good way to stress test the cables?

Thanks

B.
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post #20737 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Dude... I consider myself a fairly switched on guy, but seriously, reading your posts, I dont know if its you or me, but this stuff from you, every time its just SO difficult to read through... Is anybody else feeling this? Carbon, are you seriously over thinking and over complicating things here?

Am I alone in thinking this?

I just want to understand without having to read your posts five times? Is there anyway to do that without resorting to Y's, MTO's MCust1's etc... I need some kind of legend chart to get through your posts dude!

If we have a 100nit peak white capable projector, based on what we know re the graphs I have submitted previously which actually show in a real waveform that MOST of the image is all happening at under 100nits, Why cant we map the HDR gamma from 0 to 100 nits to 0-75 nits on the display using the multiplier, then take the last 25nits and using that for all the headroom above 100nits on the ST2084 curve?

Is that a stupid idea?


Glad you asked. Wave shaping is not intuitive, especially when one cannot depend on stds alone to solve the problem. Brightening the picture for projectors can be done with CR and gamma ctrls ... this has been done historically in 2K SDR due to the lack of bulb brightness. In HDR, if one brightens the picture with the CR ctrl, one can do the same thing by changing the shape of GammaD by making its slope steeper. In HDR, one can also brighten the picture by increasing the PT ctrl which will decrease Gamma (just like we do in 2K SDR when going from 2.4 to 2.2, Gamma2.2 results in a brighter picture than Gamma2.4). To increase PT by wave shaping the GammaD curve, one can shift the vertical portion of the GammaD curve to the left. That's exactly what the PT control does. The MCust1 curve for 100nit rigs needs to end up looking like its been shifted to the left (PT5 --> PT12).

So when you say to compress the 0-100nit picture (MTO + Specular luminance levels) into 75%, then use the remaining 25% for head room ... it seems like this a GammaD solution for the 4 clipping points (e.g. 1000/0.000, 1000/0.005, 1100/0.005, 4000/0.005). The question is "how do we design the brightness of one GammaD's curve to sync up with all 4 clipping pts of the ST.2084 curve? That's the question ... and your solution is compression/headroom. Yes?


Below is the scenario you are trying to solve. We have just 1 JVC GammaD brightness curve and 4 different clip pts for the ST.2084 curve. GammaD has to be designed so both of these curves sync up and display movies with adequate brightness at all luminance levels, based on 4 different clipping points. The GammaD brightness scale shown below is based on a linear "relative" luminance scale. ST.2084 brightness scale is based on a logarithmic "absolute" luminance scale. GammaD's curve will be re-scaled and the resulting extra head room will sync the single gammaD curve with the 4 different clipping points from the ST.2084 curve ... resulting in a great looking HDR picture, no matter which clipping point the source material uses.

1. JVC's GammaD Relative Brightness at Y5%, Y10%, Y15% ... Y95%, Y100%


vs (has to compliment the 4 different clipping points of the ST.2084 curve)


2.1. ST.2084 Brightness at 5nits, 10nits, 15nits, ... 990nits, 995nits, 1000nits/0.0nits.
2.2. ST.2084 Brightness at 5nits, 10nits, 15nits, ... 990nits, 995nits, 1000nits/0.005nits.
2.3. ST.2084 Brightness at 5nits, 10nits, 15nits, ... 1190nits, 1195nits, 1100nits/0.005nits.
2.4. ST.2084 Brightness at 5nits, 10nits, 15nits, ... 3990nits, 3995nits, 4000nits/0.005nits.

Not sure there is enough precision in a relative luminance curve to do this. That's why ST.2084 went with logarithmic scale ... for the precision. If your solution does move forward, the first test for this solution would be to make sure the "eye eviscerating" specular highlights we enjoy today on our 100nit rigs are not compromised. 4K HDR movies like Batman v Superman, Pacific Rim, Sucide Squad and Ghost Buster should be tested. Secondly, chk for compression artifacts and banding. I can certainly test this. Is this what you are thinking?


Edit: I just read Manni01's real/content solution. I'm so fixated at getting better brighter levels at 100nit Yeak, that missing/rolling off content is not on my radar as much. Once the picture gets brighter at MTO levels with the same Specular brightness we have today, then I can focus on this.

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post #20738 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
I connected my Panny to my X950R projector using celerity cable, and changing the player to standard Rec 709. My sound connection goes to the pre CXA 5100 in one of the HDMI in it. I turned the hdmi audio/video to sound only, for the player advised me I would get no 4k shown. I get no sound turning on the the CXA. 5100 and the player. If I turn the first off and then on then the sound comes. I think that if a tun on the player first and the pre/pro after I'll have sound. What may be happening? My sound cable is a fast speed monster premium. No trouble with the video.
I don't have the Panasonic player so I can't help with what options you need when using both HDMI outputs; one for video to the projector and one for audio to an AVR or Preamp. You do have the main HDMI out connected to the projector, and the audio-only output connected to the preamp? Not switched?

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post #20739 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'll try to clarify my thoughts on the relationship between the multiplier and the roll-off point. Please skip if you don't understand the basic of gamma calibration

1000nits is 75%.

So let's say we had 100nits peak white on the calibrating display and wanted to target 1000nits (10X multiplier).

By using only the 80% control point for the roll-off, it means that I map 1:1 until 70% (70nits real, 700nits content) and fit the content above 700nits into the remaining 70-100 nits available on the display.

If you wanted to start rolling off earlier, you'd have to use a lower control point, but you would lose contrast unless you use a smaller multiplier.

For example, if you used a multiplier of 5 instead, you would target 500nits (like an OLED screen) which means you would be clipping content at 500nits without a roll-off, so between 60% (240nits) and 70% (800nits). In that case, you would need to use the 70% control point as well to start rolling off from 60%. Otherwise, you would be clipping content above 500nits if you only use the 80% control point, which can only have an impact on 800nits and above by itself (assuming 70% is on target, ie is already clipping). Doing this would certainly brighten the picture over targeting 1000nits. It would be too bright for my screen, but it might be what Carbon and others with large screens and smaller gains need.

Again, I could be entirely wrong as I haven't checked this out, but that's the way I see it. This is why I think that the actual peakY used on the calibrating display has less impact on the actual brightness of the picture than the multiplier and target once the curve is applied. That's why the same curve scales well between my high lamp and low lamp modes, or with other users with a similar set-up / environment (mainly dedicated rooms with enough contrast and brightness to resolve the low end). This is also why I believe it proves the custom gamma we use on the JVC is a relative S-curve, not an absolute PQ curve, otherwise it shouldn't scale at all (if the levels were absolute).

So in high lamp, say with an actual peak of 200nits on the calibrating display, you use a multiplier of 5 for average screens (target 1000nits), a smaller multiplier for larger screens (target below 1000nits) and a larger multiplier for smaller screens (target above 1000nits). The larger the multiplier, the dimmer the screen and the harder it is to see the shadow detail. The smaller the multiplier, the earlier you have to roll-off, otherwise you clip the highlights.

In low lamp, with an actual peak of 100nits (to simplify), you would use a multiplier of 10 for an average screen (target 1000nits), 8 or below for a larger screen (target 800nits) and 12 for a smaller screen (target 1200nits).

Given that there is little content above 1000nits, I think it makes more sense to target 1000-1100nits (or lower for dimmer screens) and use a roll-off to take care of the very top of the curve for titles mastered above that.

I'm sharing this as I'm processing this based on experimenting with these various curves in my setup, again I could be entirely wrong.


I get it. What I've experienced with long roll offs is the MTO levels (under Yref) are not as bright because the top half of the curve is not pulling the lower levels up as much as when one clips at 75 or 80%. Real pblm at 100nits. It seems the top half of the curve limits what the bottom half can do in terms of brightness. I've been looking for ways to brighten MTO levels for a long time.


Never used calMAN to do this. I designed 1 curve for Jupiter Ascending which worked, but was terrible for all other movies which were not dark. This is the Custom3 curve attached. The other curves suffered from desat and low clip ... close to SDR ... not worth mentioning.


The GammaD bright curve I use today was the result of not having a viable custom curve. I needed full PT,DL,BL ctrls to do clipping and sat levels properly. The GammaD bright curve is based on tricking JVC autocal to produce a brighter GammaD curve. This curve is not well balanced and I used it to brighten the MTO levels to see what was going on. It's so bright that I have to use Super White to tone down the picture a bit.


I'm totally on board with your calMAN approach. So glad you share this knowledge. Your curve is very balance and stable. Look forward to getting my maintenance key and coming up with a curve for my rig. I know how time consuming it is.
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post #20740 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
Spyder 5...
That's for the V7 version. With V6 which works fine and has all the features, you can use a Spyder 4.

With the Spyder 5, you can use Express, Pro and Elite version, but there is no point buying above the Express as the only difference is the software. It's physically the same probes, they can be just as good or bad irrespective of the price, so my advice is to go for Express unless you want to use the Spyder Software (which locks some features depending on Model, but that doesn't apply to the JVC Autocal software.
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post #20741 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
I connected my Panny to my X950R projector using celerity cable, and changing the player to standard Rec 709. My sound connection goes to the pre CXA 5100 in one of the HDMI in it. I turned the hdmi audio/video to sound only, for the player advised me I would get no 4k shown. I get no sound turning on the the CXA. 5100 and the player. If I turn the first off and then on then the sound comes. I think that if a tun on the player first and the pre/pro after I'll have sound. What may be happening? My sound cable is a fast speed monster premium. No trouble with the video.
I had the same problem, but I have a long HDMI cable on the audio side and thought it might have caused this problem. To solve it, I did the following. With movie playing, I unplugged the main HDMI cable going to projector. I then plugged the HDMI audio cable into the main HDMI out on the Oppo and was able to get audio. I then switched the cables back (video in main HDMI and audio in secondary HDMI on Oppo) and everything worked as it should. Only had to do this one time.
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post #20742 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:01 AM
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Ok Guys,

I wonder if HDR will ever look correct with projectors. There are so many factors that we have to deal with since all the HDR titles that are on blu ray are graded with different nits. Will there ever be a standard for HDR? Will future projectors be able to correctly tone map HDR?

I hope Manni can come up with a gamma that will look acceptable for my my screen size and bat-cave. I have tried Manni Custom 1 gamma settings for HDR but it was way to dark.


Here is my set up with Manni Custom 1 Gamma

Panasonic settings brightness +2

PT ? 12
DL ? 2
BL ? 2

100" Screen 1.3 Gain Stewart StudioTek
Projector is in Low Lamp
Iris is @ -5 120 Nits
HDMI Level Standard

Picture Settings:
Color 0
Tint 0
Brightness 0 As per Masciolas Patterns (Way to Dark)
Contrast 0 Clipping @ 1200 Nits As Per Masciolas Patterns
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post #20743 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
You are very not alone in thinking that.

(Though it's always appreciated when members make that much effort to share their results).


I'll be posting just about creating custom GammaD curves using Manni01 workflow from now on.


I had to figure out why GammaD was so screwed up ... from many many different angles ... for when I reach out to JVC later on. I did not want to chance from being out maneuvered by them. All that's been completed. Thanks for everyone for not biting my head off due to the detail. I know is was way too much, but its done. Viva la liberte. lol.
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post #20744 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Ok Guys,

I wonder if HDR will ever look correct with projectors. There are so many factors that we have to deal with since all the HDR titles that are on blu ray are graded with different nits. Will there ever be a standard for HDR? Will future projectors be able to correctly tone map HDR?

I hope Manni can come up with a gamma that will look acceptable for my my screen size and bat-cave. I have tried Manni Custom 1 gamma settings for HDR but it was way to dark.


Here is my set up with Manni Custom 1 Gamma

Panasonic settings brightness +2

PT ? 12
DL ? 2
BL ? 2

100" Screen 1.3 Gain Stewart StudioTek
Projector is in Low Lamp
Iris is @ -5 120 Nits
HDMI Level Standard

Picture Settings:
Color 0
Tint 0
Brightness 0 As per Masciolas Patterns (Way to Dark)
Contrast 0 Clipping @ 1200 Nits As Per Masciolas Patterns


Did you select import to use with your custom curve? What scenes (chap/time_stamp) in what movies were too dark?
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post #20745 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Ok Guys,

I wonder if HDR will ever look correct with projectors. There are so many factors that we have to deal with since all the HDR titles that are on blu ray are graded with different nits. Will there ever be a standard for HDR? Will future projectors be able to correctly tone map HDR?

I hope Manni can come up with a gamma that will look acceptable for my my screen size and bat-cave. I have tried Manni Custom 1 gamma settings for HDR but it was way to dark.


Here is my set up with Manni Custom 1 Gamma

Panasonic settings brightness +2

PT ? 12
DL ? 2
BL ? 2
I think this was said before, but if you are able to specify PT,DL,BL in the gamma settings of your JVC, then you are not using Manni's custom gamma.

Once you hit play on the Panasonic and send an HDR signal, the JVC will auto-switch to gammaD. At this point, you need to pause the Panasonic and manually switch off of gammaD to Manni's Custom gamma. I stored mine in the Custom1 slot for gamma. Upon editing Custom1 gamma, you need to select IMPORT as the gamma curve to use.

Hope this helps
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post #20746 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:23 AM
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Sonichart nailed it.

DVD Man, you are not using Manni's curve. These values are impossible when using Manni's gamma file:

PT ? 12
DL ? 2
BL ? 2

I had a few panicked attempts at first, trying to select the Manni curve on the projector. It doesn't feel intuitive at first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Ok Guys,

I wonder if HDR will ever look correct with projectors. There are so many factors that we have to deal with since all the HDR titles that are on blu ray are graded with different nits. Will there ever be a standard for HDR? Will future projectors be able to correctly tone map HDR?

I hope Manni can come up with a gamma that will look acceptable for my my screen size and bat-cave. I have tried Manni Custom 1 gamma settings for HDR but it was way to dark.


Here is my set up with Manni Custom 1 Gamma

Panasonic settings brightness +2

PT ? 12
DL ? 2
BL ? 2

100" Screen 1.3 Gain Stewart StudioTek
Projector is in Low Lamp
Iris is @ -5 120 Nits
HDMI Level Standard

Picture Settings:
Color 0
Tint 0
Brightness 0 As per Masciolas Patterns (Way to Dark)
Contrast 0 Clipping @ 1200 Nits As Per Masciolas Patterns
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I think this was said before, but if you are able to specify PT,DL,BL in the gamma settings of your JVC, then you are not using Manni's custom gamma.

Once you hit play on the Panasonic and send an HDR signal, the JVC will auto-switch to gammaD. At this point, you need to pause the Panasonic and manually switch off of gammaD to Manni's Custom gamma. I stored mine in the Custom1 slot for gamma. Upon editing Custom1 gamma, you need to select IMPORT as the gamma curve to use.

Hope this helps
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post #20747 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
Did you select import to use with your custom curve? What scenes (chap/time_stamp) in what movies were too dark?
Yes I imported the custom gamma to Custom 3 and selected Import. I have all the JVC settings @ default. I have the brightness setting on the Panasonic @ +2. When using the Black Clipping on the Masciolas Patterns I get a black screen I see no bars at all unless I increase the brightness of the JVC to +25 this allows me to see bar 77 1.5%.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I think this was said before, but if you are able to specify PT,DL,BL in the gamma settings of your JVC, then you are not using Manni's custom gamma.

Once you hit play on the Panasonic and send an HDR signal, the JVC will auto-switch to gammaD. At this point, you need to pause the Panasonic and manually switch off of gammaD to Manni's Custom gamma. I stored mine in the Custom1 slot for gamma. Upon editing Custom1 gamma, you need to select IMPORT as the gamma curve to use.

Hope this helps
Thanks!

I totally understand that.
I only put the ? mark because the import does not allow you to see the setting as it is grayed out.
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post #20749 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:36 AM
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Claw: the main HDMI goes from the Panny to the JVC HDMI 1. My Yamaha is configured in HDMI 1 too. I connected a prime monster cable from the video/audio (that I turned to audio only) to have the 4k resolution shown on the panny menu, because the player ordered me to do that. The sound cable goes to the HDMI 3 input. I can't imagine why you have no sound when the yamaha is turned on first. If you turn it off and on then all is OK. The only thing that CXA 5100 does is provide the sound., and it does in this weird way.
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post #20750 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Thanks!

I totally understand that.
I only put the ? mark because the import does not allow you to see the setting as it is grayed out.
Sounds like you have set correctly then. Have you tried the most recent gamma curve he did which clips at 1000nits? I used that last night for Revenant was please with the PQ.

My brightness was set to +20 with High Lamp -5 on my RS600. So sounds like you're in the correct range for brightness.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Sounds like you have set correctly then. Have you tried the most recent gamma curve he did which clips at 1000nits? I used that last night for Revenant was please with the PQ.

My brightness was set to +20 with High Lamp -5 on my RS600. So sounds like you're in the correct range for brightness.
Is that Manni's Custom 2 profile or Custom 3 profile that u used? Thanks

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post #20752 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Is that Manni's Custom 2 profile or Custom 3 profile that u used? Thanks
I used the profile he posted here: Post 50696849

I believe that is Custom3?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Sounds like you have set correctly then. Have you tried the most recent gamma curve he did which clips at 1000nits? I used that last night for Revenant was please with the PQ.

My brightness was set to +20 with High Lamp -5 on my RS600. So sounds like you're in the correct range for brightness.
Cool!


What UHD Player are you using?
Are your picture controls on the player in default?
Are all your picture settings on the JVC at default with the exception of brightness that you have @ +20?
Did you check your brightness with test patterns?










Thanks
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post #20754 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 11:30 AM
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Important New Links and New File Names

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I used the profile he posted here: Post 50696849

I believe that is Custom3?
That link isn't valid anymore I'm in the process of renaming all the curves so that the name makes sense and we know what we are talking about.

Please redownload from the first post of the JVC Autocal thread the files with the correct name, and use that name when talking about a curve. Only redownload if you have a small screen and plenty of brightness. Otherwise the curves I'm about to post later should be better.

I have just done a 140-1100-4000 and am about to do a 140-1000-4000. I'll post everything at the same time with comments about which curve to use when. I'll provide a version with a hard clip at 1000nits and 1100nits as well to max contrast performance on 1000 and 1100 titles.

That way people who want simplicity can use one curve, geeks can select the proper curve to eek the most performance out of the PJ if they know how each disc was mastered and can be bothered to select the correct curve. This is NOT necessary, the difference will be minimal. It's not the roll-off that changes the overall brightness of the curve, it's the target.

That's of course assuming the curves work in their set-up. More detail later today.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-13-2017 at 11:35 AM.
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post #20755 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
I'll be posting just about creating custom GammaD curves using Manni01 workflow from now on.


I had to figure out why GammaD was so screwed up ... from many many different angles ... for when I reach out to JVC later on. I did not want to chance from being out maneuvered by them. All that's been completed. Thanks for everyone for not biting my head off due to the detail. I know is was way too much, but its done. Viva la liberte. lol.
Whatever you ask them, please do not tell them that we need different curves for different titles, this is not true and will confuse them, which will slow down progress. It's the target that counts, not the roll-off.

You can have a curve that is as bright for all titles and plays them all without any clipping.

The brightness used to calibrate the curve doesn't matter either. I'll explain more later today, but the curve I created in low lamp (peakY 140nits) is LESS bright than the curve I created in high lamp (peakY200nits), because the target is higher (1100nits vs 1000nits).

So what you need to make the curve brighter is a lower multiplier, NOT a lower clipping point. That's taken of by the roll-off, which is separate from the target.

I'll explain more later today and if you download the new curves and try them you'll see the difference and you will understand that the two are not connected.
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post #20756 of 31985 Old 02-13-2017, 11:53 AM
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Hey Manni, great work on all this! I've been trying to catch up on this but haven't seen anything about how you set brightness/contrast on either the projector or player. Are these still using the patterns from Masciola or are you leaving them at default? I'm gonna send you a PM soon as I want to get some insight into your process for the gamma manipulation in the Autocal software while also simultaneously running Calman. I have Calman Ultimate, so I was going to try something similar. I'll be using an RS620 though, so it will be interesting to see if it doesn't really matter if it is last gen or current gen for the projector.
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What happens to DI when using an imported custom gamma curve? Is it disabled also (even when selecting Auto1/Auto2) as it occurs with Gamma D?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Hey Manni, great work on all this! I've been trying to catch up on this but haven't seen anything about how you set brightness/contrast on either the projector or player. Are these still using the patterns from Masciola or are you leaving them at default? I'm gonna send you a PM soon as I want to get some insight into your process for the gamma manipulation in the Autocal software while also simultaneously running Calman. I have Calman Ultimate, so I was going to try something similar. I'll be using an RS620 though, so it will be interesting to see if it doesn't really matter if it is last gen or current gen for the projector.
Please wait until I post everything later today, I'll try to do a recap for everyone. Feel free to PM me after that if still needed.

Quote:
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What happens to DI when using an imported custom gamma curve? Is it disabled also (even when selecting Auto1/Auto2) as it occurs with Gamma D?
The DI is disabled as soon as HDR content is sent unfortunately, so a custom gamma curve can't change that. The only way to get the DI back is to use SDR BT2020.

However, with the custom curves we can get a perfect calibration without raising the black floor, which makes a big difference.

I've tried low lamp today and I prefer it over high lamp. I only get 140nits vs 200nits, but the black floor is much better and I prefer that given that we don't have the DI.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Cool!


What UHD Player are you using?
Are your picture controls on the player in default?
Are all your picture settings on the JVC at default with the exception of brightness that you have @ +20?
Did you check your brightness with test patterns?
I am projecting on a 130" wide Seymour center stage XD 2.35:1

Lamp high -5, BR +20, CR+5, color +6, cmd: off, motion enahnce: high
Oppo zeroed out and used masciola patterns resolve black down to 0.5% and white clipping so that 1000 nits was barely visible.

edit: I'm using the new Oppo UHD-203
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Last edited by sonichart; 02-13-2017 at 12:41 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I am projecting on a 130" wide Seymour center stage XD 2.35:1

Lamp high -5, BR +20, CR+5, color +6, cmd: off, motion enahnce: high
Oppo zeroed out and used masciola patterns resolve black down to 0.5% and white clipping so that 1000 nits was barely visible.

edit: I'm using the new Oppo UHD-203
I was testing these settings last night with the Panasonic UB900 and it looked great with both the original gamma curve + the 2nd one manni did which has brighter mid-tones.

what a dramatic difference vs. Gamma D!!
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