Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 693 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20761 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 01:45 PM
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Can anyone point me to discrete Gamma IR commands (ccf or Pronto hex) for RS500 / RS600 ?

I found some on JVC site for 2012 PJs it seems but they give no response on RS500. There are none in the Harmony remote list either.

Would like to be able to easily go darker or lighter by choosing Normal, 2.3, custom 1 etc... without having to cycle through them all or use my User picture memory slots for this.

Thanks for any help.
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post #20762 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I am projecting on a 130" wide Seymour center stage XD 2.35:1

Lamp high -5, BR +20, CR+5, color +6, cmd: off, motion enahnce: high
Oppo zeroed out and used masciola patterns resolve black down to 0.5% and white clipping so that 1000 nits was barely visible.

edit: I'm using the new Oppo UHD-203
Question


With brightness at + 20 on the JVC are you killing your on/off contrast and raising the black floor?

Last edited by DVD MAN; 02-13-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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post #20763 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 02:05 PM
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I see that Manni really seems to be making some welcomed gains in testing calibration for UHD, but that it continues to be a work in progress.
I'm still sitting on the sidelines watching, and if people start to zero in on an approach then I'll likely hire my calibrator to calibrate for UHD based on Manni's secret sauce settings.
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post #20764 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Question


With brightness at + 20 on the JVC are you killing your on/off contrast and raising the black floor?
Somewhere in the answer to this question lies the debate over HDR or SDR BT2020 on projectors. The black level doesn't quite compare HDR vs. Rec709. Rec 709 wins handily. However, with Manni's new gamma curves, black levels look good enough for me... well, enough to hold me over until ChadB comes and does a proper calibration for HDR, SDR2020 and REC709.

+20 isn't killing my contrast ratio and is the min amount of brightness needed to resolve .5% black using Masciola pattern. It's still not as good as Rec709 black levels with DI, but the elevated blacks aren't nearly as bad as JVCs out of box GammaD... in fact its a pretty drastic improvement.

Give it a try!
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post #20765 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Can anyone point me to discrete Gamma IR commands (ccf or Pronto hex) for RS500 / RS600 ?

I found some on JVC site for 2012 PJs it seems but they give no response on RS500. There are none in the Harmony remote list either.

Would like to be able to easily go darker or lighter by choosing Normal, 2.3, custom 1 etc... without having to cycle through them all or use my User picture memory slots for this.

Thanks for any help.
I am not controlling the RS600 via IR but I am doing it via IP and it has IR emulation inside of it. I noticed that the old commands for Normal, A, B, C, D, Custom 1, etc do not work in emulation mode. The only one I have been able to use is the code for gamma toggle (Hex 75) which at least is easier than opening the menu. But as you mention, you have to cycle.
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post #20766 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Somewhere in the answer to this question lies the debate over HDR or SDR BT2020 on projectors. The black level doesn't quite compare HDR vs. Rec709. Rec 709 wins handily. However, with Manni's new gamma curves, black levels look good enough for me... well, enough to hold me over until ChadB comes and does a proper calibration for HDR, SDR2020 and REC709.
When you say "good enough" I'm wondering what the means. Does your HDR image look overall better than a non-HDR UHD image...or even a non-HDR standard blu ray image?
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post #20767 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
When you say "good enough" I'm wondering what the means. Does your HDR image look overall better than a non-HDR UHD image...or even a non-HDR standard blu ray image?
I guess I should be more clear-- when I say "good enough" I am implying that the black levels are good enough for it not be a distraction.

I haven't done too many comparisons but with Mad Max Fury Road I watched the intro a couple times in UHD HDR as well as BR scaled to 4K. My impression is that UHD is just a tack-bit sharper than what MadVr is doing to my 1080p rip. The color saturation is definitely noticeable. Skin tones look more natural and not as washed out. Details in highlights (bright reflections off chrome parts of the car) definitely just pop out the screen in UHD whereas it looks a bit dull and blobbed together in my scaled 1080p rip.

If anyone can point me to a decent scene in Revenant to compare, I would be happy to do so. I've got John Wick and Girl on a Train currently en route as well
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post #20768 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 03:30 PM
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Comments on Manni's 200-1200-4000 curve

X950, Panni player, 120" diag.2.35 1.0 gain screen, 13 ft throw, high lamp iris -3, bat cave

I zeroed out my Panni settings but I had to raise brightness to like 25 and found it raised my black floor, even tho I could still resolve down to bar 68 on RM patterns...in a movie blacks were a bit grey...

I then set my Panni contrast to minus 3 and Panni brightness to 2...my new pj contrast is now set to 17 and pj brightness to 9, color to 5. Looks pretty good with good saturation and good shawdow detail, great blacks!...clipping at about 1100 nits

Will continue to test but faaaaaar better than Gamma D! Thanks Manni!
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post #20769 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Yes I imported the custom gamma to Custom 3 and selected Import. I have all the JVC settings @ default. I have the brightness setting on the Panasonic @ +2. When using the Black Clipping on the Masciolas Patterns I get a black screen I see no bars at all unless I increase the brightness of the JVC to +25 this allows me to see bar 77 1.5%.
I don't have the Panny, but can confirm that when I use Manni's original 3000 nit curve with both my HTPC and Oppo set adjustments at zero, I had to increase brightness in the JVC to around +17. Other's have stated that they needed values closer to 25, which is in line with your setting. These values may change some based on your screen size, gain, throw, room, lamp, iris, etc. That's why it's important to use and trust the patterns to reach the correct BR/CR targets for YOUR setup.

And as I've stated several times already, not all sources are created equal. That holds true for TV .mkv, BDs, and UHDs; so be prepared to adjust you BR accordingly for any "show". We don't sit around just watching test patterns. At least, I hope folks don't.

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post #20770 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Question

With brightness at + 20 on the JVC are you killing your on/off contrast and raising the black floor?
If you've been following Manni's efforts you'll know that his curves do NOT raise black floor when BR/CR are set correctly using HDR patterns from Ray M. When using GammaD, anything above BL +2 would raise black floor, which is why Manni's efforts and subsequent curves are a blessing because they are so much better than GammaD and it's implementation/limitations in the JVC.

These new curves have done wonders for my HDR viewing after proper BR/CR settings based on Ray M's patterns. Once you've installed and selected a proper curve and set you BR/CR in either the JVC or your source player, then black floor should not be raised. Use of the HIDE function in the JVC is all that's needed to verify that. Without a functional DI in HDR, the only way to get a lower black level is throw distance, IRIS setting, and lamp mode. That's your true native black floor without DI.

Looking forward to Manni's latest iteration of his (renamed) curves. A YUGE, BIGLY thanks to Manni!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #20771 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Somewhere in the answer to this question lies the debate over HDR or SDR BT2020 on projectors. The black level doesn't quite compare HDR vs. Rec709. Rec 709 wins handily. However, with Manni's new gamma curves, black levels look good enough for me... well, enough to hold me over until ChadB comes and does a proper calibration for HDR, SDR2020 and REC709.

+20 isn't killing my contrast ratio and is the min amount of brightness needed to resolve .5% black using Masciola pattern. It's still not as good as Rec709 black levels with DI, but the elevated blacks aren't nearly as bad as JVCs out of box GammaD... in fact its a pretty drastic improvement.

Give it a try!
I guess if it's good enough for you its fine. I will do some more testing, hopefully one of custom gamma curves that Manni has worked on will work for me. I have the Panasonic Integral combo and the conversion to SDR BT2020 looks great. I would like the option of viewing some of the UHD HDR titles if I can get a acceptable image.
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post #20772 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
When you say "good enough" I'm wondering what the means. Does your HDR image look overall better than a non-HDR UHD image...or even a non-HDR standard blu ray image?

In my opinion, yes. With Manni's custom gamma curve, HDR is finally watchable on my JVC and definitely better than a standard Bluray.

I have not seen a good implementation of SDR UHD so i can't comment on that.
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post #20773 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 04:20 PM
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Hey Guys,

ChadB just left a little while go after calibrating my RS600 and all I can say is WOW! He did a fantastic job. He calibrated for SDR bluray and SDR & HDR UHD bluray and after seeing results I will only be watching UHD in HDR and he agreed. He and Manni both been to the secret sauce store. Black level is now fantastic in both HDR and SDR but HDR looks superb with high lamp and Iris open. I also didn't realize how bad I was crushing shadow detail until now.

A big thanks to Kevin for posting how good ChadB did with his JVC. All my auto calibration days are over. Anybody on the fence or thinking about getting ChadB to calibrate their JVC should definitely do it. ChadB's website: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/home-1.html

Best money ever spent on my home theater!

Time to watch movies now!

Mike

JVC RS600(Fantastically calibrated by ChadB), Stewart Cima Neve 2.35 115" diagonal screen, Darbee Darblet, Denon AVR-X7200WA(7.6.4), M&K Speakers, 6 ported 18" subs powered by 3 inuke 6000dsps, 2 Behringer B1200D Mid Bass Modules, Buttkicker transducer, Oppo BDP-93 blu-ray player
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post #20774 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post

+20 isn't killing my contrast ratio and is the min amount of brightness needed to resolve .5% black using Masciola pattern. It's still not as good as Rec709 black levels with DI, but the elevated blacks aren't nearly as bad as JVCs out of box GammaD... in fact its a pretty drastic improvement.

Give it a try!
This is correct, it won't raise the black floor until you get over to the 24-25 range. I am current running 17, same as Steve and it looks great. I keep switching to Gamma D just to see how crappy it looks. It's no wonder most folks didn't want to deal with HDR the last year. All the other settings around Gamma D wasn't going to produce a great image (CMS tweaks, projector / player B/C settings, etc)

The vast majority of the overall HDR image quality comes from that gamma curve.
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post #20775 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Yes I've been working on a RS420 and making a custom gamma curve for HDR with outstanding results. Mkoper and Manni's multiplier methods have been a tremendous help. I will be able to do the same on the RS400/500/600.
BTW, on the new X20 series there is no gamma D; it is a new gamma preset that is much better tuned from the factory, so even without a custom gamma they are pretty good in HDR mode. Their autocal software (v 9.00) has a problem though and needs a fix.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
Hey Guys,

ChadB just left a little while go after calibrating my RS600 and all I can say is WOW! He did a fantastic job. He calibrated for SDR bluray and SDR & HDR UHD bluray and after seeing results I will only be watching UHD in HDR and he agreed. He and Manni both been to the secret sauce store. Black level is now fantastic in both HDR and SDR but HDR looks superb with high lamp and Iris open. I also didn't realize how bad I was crushing shadow detail until now.

A big thanks to Kevin for posting how good ChadB did with his JVC. All my auto calibration days are over. Anybody on the fence or thinking about getting ChadB to calibrate their JVC should definitely do it. ChadB's website: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/home-1.html

Best money ever spent on my home theater!

Time to watch movies now!

Mike
Glad to see another satisfied ChadB customer!

He does a phenomenal job...every time.
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post #20776 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 04:38 PM
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^^ yes but all the previous work done will likely have to be updated as you really can't get great results from Gamma D regardless of all the other tweaks to CMS, etc.
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post #20777 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
Hey Guys,

ChadB just left a little while go after calibrating my RS600 and all I can say is WOW! He did a fantastic job. He calibrated for SDR bluray and SDR & HDR UHD bluray and after seeing results I will only be watching UHD in HDR and he agreed. He and Manni both been to the secret sauce store. Black level is now fantastic in both HDR and SDR but HDR looks superb with high lamp and Iris open. I also didn't realize how bad I was crushing shadow detail until now.

A big thanks to Kevin for posting how good ChadB did with his JVC. All my auto calibration days are over. Anybody on the fence or thinking about getting ChadB to calibrate their JVC should definitely do it. ChadB's website: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/home-1.html

Best money ever spent on my home theater!

Time to watch movies now!

Mike

Congrats on your ChadB calibration, I am sure it's a sight to behold. Can you confirm that he created a custom HDR curve for your particular setup and not just a tweak to Gamma D?
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post #20778 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:06 PM
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New custom curves and quick calibration guide

I have restructured the sections in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html and added a lot of details/instructions to download and install the curves. The key posts in this thread are also linked in the first post of that thread. Please read them all before asking questions here

I have also uploaded the custom curves I have made in low lamp (140nits actual peakY). Links in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread above. Note that due to a few trolls, I don't participate to/monitor that thread anymore, which is a shame as it would have been the ideal thread to have this discussion. Oh well...

As expected, these curves are NOT brighter per se. It is the target (multiplier) that makes the difference, not the actual peak white of the display used for calibration.

This confirms a few things:
  1. The custom gamma curves are relative S-shaped curves, not absolute PQ Gamma curves. They scale fairly well between low lamp and high lamp, to the exception of the very low end: I have noticed checking my 140nits curves in low lamp that I needed to raise brightness in the Panny to +7, and as a result to lower contrast to -2 as the two are interdependent.
  2. People with large screens and low gain will be disappointed by these new curves. You really need to use a much lower multiplier for such setups to target something like 600-800nits, not 1000nits (which is the lowest I have done as I don't need any brighter).
  3. People with ambiant light will need to raise the low end. This can be done with a text editor, as described earlier.
  4. Once you know what to target according to your own peakY, you only need ONE curve to play all titles if you use one with a roll-off resolving to 4000nits. The loss of brightness/contrast in the high end is minimal, so most people will be very happy with a single curve with a roll-off. Good brightness, no clipping, no need to wonder how each title is mastered and how much of the extra bandwidth titles mastered to 4000nits use (many of them don't use more than 1000nits anyway).
  5. The brighter the picture (the steeper the gamma curve) the more loss in saturation, there is no free lunch! For the curves I've posted, I find that slightly raising the color control (5-10) compensates perceptually.


I don't have the time to give a detailed procedure to create your own curve, I'll try to post later when I can. Most of the info is in the thread, the key posts have been linked in the JVC Autocal thread, I just don't have the time to do a write-up right now. I use Calman Ultimate, my Discus trained to an i1pro2 and MadVR/MadTPG on my HTPC as a pattern generator. As you can set the gamma mode manually in the JVCs, there is no need to have patterns with HDR metadata as long as you select manually the right gamut/gamma. A very quick breakdown would be:

  1. Select lamp mode and iris setting for HDR mode
  2. Run a JVC Autocal Gamma + Color with these settings using your Spyder. You can leave your custom color temp and custom gamma selected (the log will not show a straight line as it's baked for 2.2, but it will work fine). The only thing you need to do is select the reference colour profile to be able to run gamma. Then select the bt.2020 custom gamut and run a color only.
  3. Switch to your calibration software and your more accurate meter. Set the gamut to BT2020 HDR and the gamma to ST2024HDR. In Calman, select the HDR10 Calibration workflow. Use the latest 5.7.1 beta.
  4. Set the gains to D65 at 100% white
  5. Decide on a multiplier. Target 1000-1100nits if you can get 120-200nits. If you can't target 800-1000nits. If you can't reach more than 50nits, forget HDR and use SDR BT2020. For example, in high lamp, I get 200nits, I use a multiplier of 5 to target 1000nits. In low lamp, I reach 140nits, I use a multiplier of 7 to reach 1000nits. The overall brightness of the curve will be the same, it will just be more accurate if done in the actual mode. It's the multiplier/brightness that decides the overall brightness of the curve, not the actual peak white of the calibrating display.
  6. Enter this multiplier in your screen offset Y (luminance [edit: that's the third value, capital Y, not the second one, small y]). In Calman, it's in the workflow options. I use a simple formula: target /actual peakY = multiplier. If you do this, Calman will scale all the charts so that the data is meaningful and can be adjusted. It will also show exactly the target curve, and where you are supposed to clip.
  7. Run a greyscale/gamma measurement to see yur starting point. Your peakY should be the target thanks to the multiplier.
  8. Select the gamma option on the JVC software. You don't want to use the Spyder (unless it's you're only meter, but it needs to be connected to Calman in that case, not the JVC software which doesn't need a meter to work on the 11-point gamma
  9. Select a starting point for the custom gamma curve. Gamma D isn't an option unfortunately, so it's recommended to load one of my curves to save time as a starting point.
  10. Select the custom gamma curve you want to create/modify. Say Custom1.
  11. Select the control point you want to modify. Only touch white gamma, that way when you run an Autocal it will take care of any RGB balance errors. Of course if you want to you can correct the balance further, but you'll probably have to redo the curve when you autocal it later. I did it from bottom to top, it seemed to work fine. Change the value in the JVC software, say at 5%. Wait until it updates (all the changes are sent to the PJ in real-time but it takes 5-10 seconds for the data to get there.
  12. Select the pattern for the same control point in Calman and measure it. You should see the change (provided your meter is connected to Calman of course and the correct pattern is displayed on the screen). Adjust the value until you get as close as you can to the target shown for Y in Calman.
  13. Repeat for all the control points. Above 20, do 30, then measure 25 to check, then do 40, measure 35, etc.
  14. All the points at 90% and above should clip (there is nothing there for now, it's above 4000nits). If you target 1000nits, use the 80% control point to adjust the roll-off. Set it to the max for no roll-off. Set it lower than the target to have a roll-off up to 90%. You'll have to check with the Masciola patterns, but you can still adjust in real time as you do that. If your target is very low, you will need to start to roll-off before 80%.
  15. Once you've done all the points, run a full measurement to check, adjust individual points if necessary.
  16. Once all is good, click save and select a file name. This is your custom curve.
  17. Once the custom gamma is created, import it using the import/export option from the main menu, select the custom gamma in the JVC and select "import" as the correction value. You can then check the low end or the clipping point using the Masciola patterns, still in real time. If you make any change, don't forget to save them in the same (or a new) file.

Note: This custom gamma file is a text file. The format is: values for the 11 control points for red, then green, then blue. You can edit any value. For example, to have no roll-off, replace the value for R, G,B of the third value from the end in each set with 1023 (clipping) using a text editor. Always use the same value for RGB if you don't want to change the balance at that point.

I haven't had the time to test all the new files, I'm uploading them for your enjoyment and to help understand how they work and what they change.

Don't complain if the new curves are still too dark for your set-up, it's expected as the lowest target I've used is still 1000nits. You need to create your own file or to hire a calibrator. At least now we know it can be done

What we still need from JVC:

  1. Enabling the DI in HDR, even if only on fade to black.
  2. Fix the bug in the dark gamma control that raises the black floor if any value above +2 is used. The JVC recommended value of +5 divides the on/off contrast by 3 (from 45000:1 to 15000:1 eek
  3. A way to disable the auto select of Gamma D when a custom gamma with an import correction value is selected, it's VERY annoying to have to select a custom gamma every time with start playing a film/pattern/clip in HDR. Even pause after a while reverts to Gamma D.
  4. A working remote control code for the custom gamma presets. The ones in the remote control guide do not work. Sadly, GaryB has left JVC UK so not sure how we can get these.

That's it for tonight!

Please don't PM me to ask about this, post in the thread and others will help. I really don't have the time at the moment to provide support for this. Read all the instructions in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread, as well as the key posts linked there. I'll try to correct things if I've made mistakes (it's late here) but that's about it for now. Good luck!

Last edited by Manni01; 02-14-2017 at 03:41 AM.
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post #20779 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:15 PM
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6. Enter this multiplier in your screen offset Y (luminance). In Calman, it's in the workflow options. I use a simple formula: target /actual peakY = multiplier. If you do this, Calman will scale all the charts so that the data is meaningful and can be adjusted. It will also show exactly the target curve, and where you are supposed to clip.
Manni just to clarify, is it the Y one or the y one?


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post #20780 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Manni just to clarify, is it the Y one or the y one?

It's the Y (capital Y) for luminance. x,y are the coordinates in the 2D plan.

So the one you've circled is correct.
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post #20781 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:20 PM
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It's the Y (capital Y) for luminance. x,y are the coordinates in the 2D plan.

So the one you've circled is correct.
Excellent thx.

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post #20782 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:49 PM
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What we still need from JVC:

  1. Enabling the DI in HDR, even if only on fade to black.
  2. Fix the bug in the dark gamma control that raises the black floor if any value above +2 is used. The JVC recommended value of +5 divides the on/off contrast by 3 (from 45000:1 to 15000:1 eek
  3. A way to disable the auto select of Gamma D when a custom gamma with an import correction value is selected, it's VERY annoying to have to select a custom gamma every time with start playing a film/pattern/clip in HDR. Even pause after a while reverts to Gamma D.
  4. A working remote control code for the custom gamma presets. The ones in the remote control guide do not work. Sadly, GaryB has left JVC so not sure how we can get these.
A million thankyous Manni!!

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post #20783 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:51 PM
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I am not controlling the RS600 via IR but I am doing it via IP and it has IR emulation inside of it. I noticed that the old commands for Normal, A, B, C, D, Custom 1, etc do not work in emulation mode. The only one I have been able to use is the code for gamma toggle (Hex 75) which at least is easier than opening the menu. But as you mention, you have to cycle.
Thanks. Well I didn't want to go ip if I could avoid it but I can't believe there aren't discrete codes for the gamma presets (either ip or ir) Esp. when this was available on JVC's projectors just a few years ago.

Nobody else is using discrete gamma codes somehow?

EDIT: I see above from @Manni01 that apparently this is a lingering issue and there simply just aren't any codes for Gamma?!

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post #20784 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 05:56 PM
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Congrats on your ChadB calibration, I am sure it's a sight to behold. Can you confirm that he created a custom HDR curve for your particular setup and not just a tweak to Gamma D?
Yes, he did both. He imported a custom HDR curve that he said was using same principals as Manni's but tweaked for my particular setup. He also calibrated a preset using Gamma D so it gives me 2 choices for HDR. Both look great.

Mike
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post #20785 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 06:10 PM
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Glad to see another satisfied ChadB customer!

He does a phenomenal job...every time.
Absolutely.
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post #20786 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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I have restructured the sections in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread ...
Thank you so much for all your hard work, Manni. Much appreciated. I have tried one of your new curves with the Philips player. Low lamp, +7 brightness (highest that doesn't lift black level), +7 contrast (due to the below).

HDR has never looked so good on the JVC before, it looks sensational.

I can't help but think what a curve targeting 600nits would look like. I recon it would give us more contrast without having to mess with the contrast control. I still feel like leaving contrast at 0 on the JVC doesn't allow for proper tone-mapping compared to my HDR TV. Some colours - especially in the lower and mid tones - just don't pop with the same richness at times when viewing some of the same scenes. Upping the contrast control to +7 looks like a good compromise between not clipping too much at the high end and still having a pop to the image I'm used to.

Having said all of that, it is the first time I am actually happy with HDR on the JVC. Finally! Thank you all who contributed.
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post #20787 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 07:01 PM
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No, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with my curves

I only use my last effective control point (80% or around 1200nits) to adjust the roll-off from 70% (around 800nits), but others could also use the 70% or even the 60% control point (240nits) if they wanted to start rolling off earlier. I wouldn't suggest rolling off before 50% (100nits).

This is why I don't like the idea of the ST2390 curve, it starts rolling off way too early to my taste.
OK, now I just blazed through the last few pages, so forgive me if I missed something, but I've been thinking about this....

First, we know that SDR is mastered for 100 nits peak white, and in general we calibrate our projectors for about 50 nits peak white. Now SDR uses a relative curve, so everything scales well.

Now, for HDR, we have ST.2084 which is an absolute curve. We know that HDR is intended to be roughly the same (brightness wise) as SDR, up to 100 nits, with the range above that being for highlights.

So the question is, why do we not want to use a 2x multiplier in Calman for calibrating HDR? That would make content 100 nits equal to 50 nits on screen, which would seem to be exactly what we're looking for . Then for a custom curve, wouldn't you calibrate it "linear" all the way up to the 100 nit point, and then apply the roll off between 100 nits (is that ~50%?) and 4000 nits or so?

It seems to me that 4, 5, 6x multipliers are far too large, for example if I tell Calman to apply a 5x multiplier, and then calibrate everything "perfectly", content that's supposed to be 100 nits (per the PQ curve) will only be 20 nits, which is less than half as bright as we want (50 nits). This is actually what I found myself when I was playing around with the multiplier in Calman, I attempted to calibrate with a very high multiplier (like 10x) because I had calibrated to a peak white of under 100 nits (iris was somewhat closed), the result was everything was way too dark, much darker than if I had my Pansonic do DRC and output SDR.

I do intend to try and make my own custom PQ/Gamma curve when I get some time to play with it. I really want to try a 2x multiplier. If I understand how that works in Calman, that should be the HDR equivalent of how we calibrate SDR.

Of course the trick is, that curve will be unique to each particular setup (screen size, aperture, lamp, throw, etc).

I'm not criticizing at all, bravo for all the great work and information you've provided. Just trying to understand and hopefully help get to the bottom of this.

Thanks to the great info here and with Calman, it's invaluable.
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What a fantastic contribution to this thread!!!

THANK YOU Manni01!!!!


Out of curiosity, has anyone measured the gamma D curve with the JVC recommended settings, and compared to the PQ curve to see how they differ. (Yes I know, each situation is different, screen size, gain, throw.)

But it would be very informative for anyone who has done this to publish their results in either the form of "nits out vs nits in" or "nits out vs % video in".
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
What we still need from JVC:

  1. Enabling the DI in HDR, even if only on fade to black.
  2. Fix the bug in the dark gamma control that raises the black floor if any value above +2 is used. The JVC recommended value of +5 divides the on/off contrast by 3 (from 45000:1 to 15000:1 eek
  3. A way to disable the auto select of Gamma D when a custom gamma with an import correction value is selected, it's VERY annoying to have to select a custom gamma every time with start playing a film/pattern/clip in HDR. Even pause after a while reverts to Gamma D.
  4. A working remote control code for the custom gamma presets. The ones in the remote control guide do not work. Sadly, GaryB has left JVC UK so not sure how we can get these.
Do any dealers or reviewers following this thread know the best way for JVC to understand these (hopefully) simple change requests and consider providing them in the interest of very much improved customer satisfaction and continued brand loyalty? These changes will help all of their RS4x0/5x0/6x0 customer base that used HDR.

I say dealers and reviewers because I don't think JVC Japan is going to listen to end customer requests, but might listen to folks with a little more influence to their bottom line.
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post #20790 of 31899 Old 02-13-2017, 07:31 PM
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This thread is so technical that it's hard to follow, I know I stated this before but I wished they had a Calibration for dummies like me
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