Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 695 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20821 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Guys, do me a favor, get your fingers out, and follow the method to do your own curve.

When you have, let's see and discuss your results.

Carbon, I really do not see why I should pay any attention to the way you measure my curve in your setup. You have a different player, different brightness/contrast settings, a different screen with different gain, and not enough brightness to play HDR.....
Yes you are 100% correct each room are different, same with sound calibration for one room is not the same for the next room.

So with that I need to start learning from a beginner standpoint

I wished it was as easy as using Anthem AV-m60 ARC2 love that EQ

Ok so here my equipment

- StewartFilm Screen Firehawk G3 10 feet wide 2:35 aspect ratio
- JVC RS 600
- Panasonic DMP-UB900


Bought a PC and Syper 5 so I could learn to do that and also use ARC2 for sound

Non dedicated room but can get it very dark at night
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post #20822 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I absolutely will make my own curve, I just haven't had the free time to do it yet. And also I'm not asking you to make a curve for me, I am simply discussing the theory of making such curves. Specifically what the target of that curve should be.

Taking a step back from the practical limitations that may exist in the JVC projectors. Do you disagree that an "ideal" mapping of HDR for a projection setup (which can nit 100nits+) should have 100 nit content displayed at 50 nits or so? And if so, what should it be and why?
I entirely agree with the theory, and this is definitely what I would do if I had access to Dolby Vision Cinema content, but I disagree in practice for all the reasons already mentioned because what we have is content mastered to 1000nits and up, whether we like it or not. If I display this content in HDR, I want to keep the benefits of HDR (wider gamut, less banding as well as high dynamic range). I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole and lose all the benefits.

Because from my experimentation, the smaller the multiplier (the lower the target), the brighter the curve (as expected) BUT the less saturated the picture is. So yes, you're going to be able to play HDR content in a way that will look bright enough, but you are losing ALL the benefit of the HDR master. What's the point?

I just got fed up so I made a quick curve (it still took me an hour of a time I don't have more than you do!). It does exactly what you want. I'm sure all the brightness deprived users will be very happy with it. Problem: it's very undersaturated, as expected, and all the highlights are compressed into a minuscule bandwidth. You could of course start the roll off earlier (I started it after 60%, so after 240nits). In conclusion, yes, you can play HDR that way on a brightness deprived screen, but no, in my opinion, it's not better than SDR BT2020, at least with the tools we have at the moment. I hope Calman will come up with an HDR10 Projector calibration workflow which will allow us to do better than what we can achieve simply with the multiplier. It's better than nothing, but it's not ideal.

I make the curve available for people to check it, but please check it against SDR BT2020 before thinking it's great. Sure, you can pump up the color control like mad and whatever, but it's not the way to do it with the tools and the consumer content we have.

If people, through experimentation, come up with tips and advice to improve this, I'll be all ears. But in the meantime, please stop from making theoretical suggestions until you've put the hours in and checked for yourself. There is no free lunch and there are pluses and minuses for each option. Brightness is not the only factor in HDR. You also want a wider gamut, no?

My recommendation is still not to target lower than 600-800nits. Below that, I would go for SDR BT2020. I personally like the brightness when targeting 1000nits on my screen, but I get more saturation targeting 1100nits, which is still bright enough for me. Hence this is my preferred target for now.

Anyway, 200-400-4000 has been added in the first post of the JVC Autocal in the high lamp section. It doesn't look as bad as I was expecting it to (saying it would be black and white was an exaggeration ), but I certainly won't be using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Just do the rest of us a big favor and NOT leave this thread. Use the ignore function or whatever it takes for you to stick around.


No worries, I had not planned to leave the thread, I just got tired of the theoretical debates, from people who know better without putting the hours in the experimentation of this new tool.
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Last edited by Manni01; 02-14-2017 at 11:35 AM.
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post #20823 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kkpro View Post
I have the same meter and software. It doesn't support the internal patterns. The RS45/55 series was the last. All I could use was the 2-pt but I am by no means professional. I use a Lumagen 2020 for my pattern generator. You can use Amazon Fire TV as a pattern generator. Calman can control that after downloading the app.
Thank for advice. What is the right meter mode for our projectors? They have:
- Front Projector – facing screen (CRT)
- Front Projector – facing screen (UHP)
- Front Projector – facing screen (White LED)
- Front Projector – facing screen (RGB LED)

I assume it's UHP?
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post #20824 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Someone at AVS should establish a conduit to JVC Japan. An influential site such as this, would be a perfect sounding board for JVC to keep an eye/ear on as to the wish list of their core customers.

Satisfy this demanding bunches wants or most of the wants anyway and the rest of the consumers needs will be surely sated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
Thank for advice. What is the right meter mode for our projectors? They have:
- Front Projector – facing screen (CRT)
- Front Projector – facing screen (UHP)
- Front Projector – facing screen (White LED)
- Front Projector – facing screen (RGB LED)

I assume it's UHP?
Correct.
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post #20825 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Yup, understood... However...

So you put up the 50% pattern in Calman, that represents 100 nit content, Calman thus expects your meter to read 100 nits. If you use a 5x multiplier, and adjust the projector's curve so that Calman shows 100 nits, that means that the meter is actually reading 100/5 or 20 nits.

I'm not talking about clipping below 1200 nits.

With a normal PQ curve you should have this (if I put the formula into excel correctly):
10% - 0.32 nits
20% - 2.43 nits
30% - 10.0 nits
40% - 32.5 nits
50% - 92.3 nits
60% - 224 nits
70% - 621 nits
80% - 1555 nits
90% - 3905 nits
100% - 10000 nits

What I'm picturing is something more like this:
10% - 0.16 nits
20% - 1.21 nits
30% - 5.02 nits
40% - 16.2 nits
50% - 46.1 nits
60% - 65 nits - start the roll of (these are just made up)
70% - 80 nits
80% - 90 nits
90% - 95 nits
100% - 100 nits



Here's a comparison (non logarithmic) of a 2x vs 5x multiplier:



I haven't either, nor have I had a chance to try your custom curve, but I do plan to do both


-edit

I've added examples of 5x multiplier to the graphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Guys, do me a favor, get your fingers out, and follow the method to do your own curve.

When you have, let's see and discuss your results.

Carbon, I really do not see why I should pay any attention to the way you measure my curve in your setup. You have a different player, different brightness/contrast settings, a different screen with different gain, and not enough brightness to play HDR.

Why on earth should the way you measure MY curves made for MY setup be any useful? Yes, my curves do not fit your needs. That's because I make them for myself and share them as well as the method so you can make your own.

At least make your own curve (I would strongly suggest resetting all these brightness and contradt settings in both the player and the PJ when doing so) and THEN tell us what you measure.

I still recommend targeting no lower than 600-800nits following the Calman workflow and my procedure.

Feel free to contribute with your curves and procedure once you have something that works.

But please stop bugging me to provide curves that works better for people who shouldn't be using HDR anyway because they have the wrong screen...

Until you guys come up with your own curves and share them for others to try (and I'm sure that if they work for you they will help others), I'm not discussing this further.

@stranger 89 the luminance issue with your proposal means you'll have darker HDR pictures for your efforts. Just compare the before and after Y50% and below luminance levels for your proposal ... they are cut in half. As I've mentioned before, if the Specular levels are weakened, this will lower the MTO levels ... because the specular levels are no longer strong enough to pull up the MTO levels ... so the MTO levels sink.


The MTO luminance levels (below Y50%) are the most important portion of the curve to get correct. That's where all the image information is for HDR ... and where most of the brightness for our screens come from ... and where all the issues projector owners are having with dark to very dark movies. One cannot weaken the specular levels without weakening the MTO levels ... you'll need to be more clever.


The only solution is to raise brightness by lowering gamma ... this will shift the curve to the left and brighten the picture without sacrificing Specular or MTO levels. It should significantly brighten MTO levels and, to a lesser degree, brighten the Specular levels. Manni01's roll off needs to make sure it does not negatively impact MTO luminance levels. This is really simple to understand. MTO luminance levels need to go up. The reason why they are not is the Specular luminance levels are being weakened by this proposal ... so they cannot pull up the MTO levels. This is hysterical ... like the great marianas turkey shoot. I still have hope for you guys. I'm working on curves now to prove the point. Good luck!


Stranger89 proposal:


Before After Brightness Gain/Loss


10% - 0.32 nits 0.16 -50% MTO Levels
20% - 2.43 nits 1.21 -50% MTO Levels
30% - 10.0 nits 5.02 -50% MTO Levels
40% - 32.5 nits 16.2 -50% MTO Levels
50% - 92.3 nits 46.1 -50% MTO Levels
60% - 224 nits 65 SPECUALR Levels
70% - 621 nits 80 SPECULAR Levels
80% - 1555 nits 90 SPECULAR Levels
90% - 3905 nits 95 SPECUALR Levels
100% - 10000 nits 100 SPECULAR Levels


blue=MTO levels (Y50% and under)
hot pink= Specular Levels (Y51% and up)
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post #20826 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
If you've been following Manni's efforts you'll know that his curves do NOT raise black floor when BR/CR are set correctly using HDR patterns from Ray M. When using GammaD, anything above BL +2 would raise black floor, which is why Manni's efforts and subsequent curves are a blessing because they are so much better than GammaD and it's implementation/limitations in the JVC.

These new curves have done wonders for my HDR viewing after proper BR/CR settings based on Ray M's patterns. Once you've installed and selected a proper curve and set you BR/CR in either the JVC or your source player, then black floor should not be raised. Use of the HIDE function in the JVC is all that's needed to verify that. Without a functional DI in HDR, the only way to get a lower black level is throw distance, IRIS setting, and lamp mode. That's your true native black floor without DI.

Looking forward to Manni's latest iteration of his (renamed) curves. A YUGE, BIGLY thanks to Manni!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your input, I am starting to get a better understanding.
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post #20827 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Thank you fabulous guide this is the new link http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322


Too bad it it require purchasing software and equipment I have an RS600 that has Auto calibration?

I already bought Datacolor Spyder 5 so spending an other $500 for Chromapure is out of my budget
Download Colorimeter HCFR and have a go It's the principals in that guide that are important, not the software you use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I entirely agree with the theory, and this is definitely what I would do if I had access to Dolby Vision Cinema content, but I disagree in practice for all the reasons already mentioned because what we have is content mastered to 1000nits and up, whether we like it or not. If I display this content in HDR, I want to keep the benefits of HDR (wider gamut, less banding as well as high dynamic range). I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole and lose all the benefits.

Because from my experimentation, the smaller the multiplier (the lower the target), the brighter the curve (as expected) BUT the less saturated the picture is. So yes, you're going to be able to play HDR content in a way that will look bright enough, but you are losing ALL the benefit of the HDR master. What's the point?
Fair enough, this is exactly the type of response I was looking to hear when I posted

Quote:
I just got fed up so I made a quick curve (it still took me an hour of a time I don't have more than you do!). It does exactly what you want. I'm sure all the brightness deprived users will be very happy with it. Problem: it's very undersaturated, as expected, and all the highlights are compressed into a minuscule bandwidth. You could of course start the roll off earlier (I started it after 60%, so after 240nits). In conclusion, yes, you can play HDR that way on a brightness deprived screen, but no, in my opinion, it's not better than SDR BT2020, at least with the tools we have at the moment. I hope Calman will come up with an HDR10 Projector calibration workflow which will allow us to do better than what we can achieve simply with the multiplier. It's better than nothing, but it's not ideal.
Well, I'm not necessarily looking for something better than SDR+BT.2020, I'm more interested in something better than Gamma D for sources that don't support SDR BT2020. For example Amazon though the Samsung K8500, it's HDR/WCG, but unless you really fiddle around there's no way to trick it into outputting SDR BT2020, it's either all or nothing. I'm curious if a custom gamma with HDR is better than dropping all the way back to the SDR version.

Quote:
If people, through experimentation, come up with tips and advice to improve this, I'll be all ears. But in the meantime, please stop from making theoretical suggestions until you've put the hours in and checked for yourself. There is no free lunch and there are pluses and minuses for each option. Brightness is not the only factor in HDR. You also want a wider gamut, no?
Was just trying to understand what you'd tried and your thought process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
@stranger 89 the luminance issue with your proposal means you'll have darker HDR pictures for your efforts. Just compare the before and after Y50% and below luminance levels for your proposal ... they are cut in half. As I've mentioned before, if the Specular levels are weakened, this will lower the MTO levels ... because the specular levels are no longer strong enough to pull up the MTO levels ... so the MTO levels sink.
But that's the point! We don't have flat panels, we shouldn't be targetting flat panel brightness. I don't want "MTO" content to be 100 nits, that's way, way too bright for a screen that takes up most of your field of view. I point back to calibration conventions for SDR. For SDR, content is mastered at 100nits peak (100% Y), yet this is way too bright for projection. For projection, we target a peak of 50 nits (around 14-16fL) for 100% Y. Again, for SDR.

So why not do this for HDR as well. SDR we want content to be <= 50nits. Dolby Cinema targets ~50nits for MTO content. So why should we not do the same for HDR at home, that only makes sense, theoreticaly. Chopping the whole curve in half reduces the problem greatly in the first place, and gets MTO content right where we're used to it with SDR, <=50nits. But now with the extra horsepower we've got with modern projectors, we've got some headroom left for the "specular levels", >50 nits.

Now no, it won't measure exactly the same as a flat panel, but that's kind of the point, if we target flat panel MTO levels, there's nothing left for highlights with projection, and everything is way too bright.

But I of course defer to Manni's experience with the multiplier levels and their side effects until I get a chance to investigate myself on my RS600.
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post #20828 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
That is another thing I have always respected about Chad having been my calibrator since 2005 going back to my former RPTV days. He doesn't have a big ego that interferes with the truth and latest information. He stays atop of everything to give the best result for the customer and will spend however much time is required on that display/projector.
David and I are probably two of Chad's oldest customers. I have been getting my system calibrated since 2003 by Chad and I couldn't agree more with David when it comes to Chad. He is out to make sure we get the BEST performance out of our systems. Each of us has different variables at play, which means everyone of us will get different results.

I know that I really wanted HDR to be the preferred viewing profile for my JVC when it comes to watching 4K movies, but I just couldn't get enough light output. Chad and I spoke yesterday in regards to the recent Gamma improvements and he still thinks the SDR 2020 is the better option for me. I could easily see other calibrators trying to get me to pay for another touch up, but not Chad....

Sorry if Y'all are sick of me posting good things about Chad...lol
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post #20829 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:02 PM
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So another 5 day hiatus from this thread and a million more posts, seesh In reading every other line here and there, I believe the consensus on the new x20 machines are that the HDR auto gamma curve (No longer gamma D) is good enough ootb that you simply want to start with it if you have no other calibration equipment. Amiright?

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post #20830 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Glad the new curves also work for you
Thanks again Manni for all the great work here. The HP is a huge factor in my screen size and honestly probably wouldn't have bothered with HDR at all if I had a 10 foot wide unity gain screen. I believe SOWK just sold his 520 because it wasn't going to work with HDR on his relatively large AT screen.

I am getting near max gain (projector is about 6 inches above eye level in my setup) so it's likely we are looking at the same perceived brightness.

Lucy, deadpool, Martian, Lone Soldier, reverent, everything is looking substantially better than Gamma D. I've wanted to go office space on Gamma D for over a year

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post #20831 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:12 PM
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200-1200-4000 or 190-1000-4000

Hi Folks:


I'm just looking to use a universal curve...

Just trying to decide which of Manni's curve to use...I will test myself but just looking for advice...x950, 120 diag screen 1.0 gain, 13 ft throw, bat cave


I loaded up 200-1200-4000...looks great. Question...Should I be clipping at 1200 as per the title?


Given I don't know my light output and I have a large screen, should I be using 190-1000-4000? Should I clip at 1000?


I'm not home so just looking for some quick input? As u can see, I'm still a wee bit confused on where I should be clipping...Thanks folks

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post #20832 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
I guess if it's good enough for you its fine. I will do some more testing, hopefully one of custom gamma curves that Manni has worked on will work for me. I have the Panasonic Integral combo and the conversion to SDR BT2020 looks great. I would like the option of viewing some of the UHD HDR titles if I can get a acceptable image.
Hey Guys,

So today I loaded custom curve 140-1100-4000 and I followed Manni settings brightness at +1 and contrast at 0 on the JVC and contrast at -2 and brightness at +7 on the Panny from his screen to mine. Understanding that the settings will be different on my screen as I have a larger screen. 100" Stewart StudioTek G3 1.3 Gain.

I had to make some adjustments on the panny, on Manni set up contrast was set to -2. I had to set contrast at +2 here I was able to see the 4000 nits bar 852 on the white clipping pattern from Masciola's patterns. I also had to adjust the brightness from the panny to +9 from Manni setting of +7. with this setting I was able see black clipping pattern Bar 81 2% and up.These setting are looking very positive so far. I viewed Suicide Squad and Magnificent 7 and they are looking good HDR.

Question

Are there any negatives using the panny brightness and contrast settings?

Last edited by DVD MAN; 02-14-2017 at 04:06 PM.
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post #20833 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks again Manni for all the great work here. The HP is a huge factor in my screen size and honestly probably wouldn't have bothered with HDR at all if I had a 10 foot wide unity gain screen. I believe SOWK just sold his 520 because it wasn't going to work with HDR on his relatively large AT screen.

I am getting near max gain (projector is about 6 inches above eye level in my setup) so it's likely we are looking at the same perceived brightness.

Lucy, deadpool, Martian, Lone Soldier, reverent, everything is looking substantially better than Gamma D. I've wanted to go office space on Gamma D for over a year

Reading this, I am so tempted to go high gain to keep a large screen while having the benefits of HDR. I know where I can get one of the now extinct HP 2.4 screens.. Only downside is that it's 16:9 and I really want to stay with 2.35:1.
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post #20834 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hi Folks:


Just trying to decide which of Manni's curve to use...I will test myself but just looking for advice...x950, 120 diag screen 1.0 gain, 13 ft throw, bat cave


I loaded up 200-1200-4000...looks great. Question...Should I be clipping at 1200 as per the title?


Given I don't know my light output and I have a large screen, should I be using 190-1000-4000? Should I clip at 1000?


I'm not home so just looking for some quick input? Thanks folks
You are not clipping anything with these curves and you should not use contrast to clip lower. They are universal. The first number tells you the actual peakY during calibration. The second number tells you the target (the lowest the number, the brighter the curve will look like but the less saturated it will be). The third number tells you where it's clipping.

So if you use a curve ending with 4000, you will never clip any content (provided you check your contrast/brightness settings on the panny with patterns or roughly copy mine).

If you can use the 200-1200-4000, it probably looks a bit less bright but a bit more saturated than the 190-1100-4000 one.

If you do want to clip, use a curve with no roll-off, ending in 1000 or 1100. These will work slightly better with content mastered to 1000-1000 nits, but they will clip highlights on some titles mastered to 4000nits.

If you use only one curve, make sure you use one ending with 4000nits and do not change the clipping point. With the patterns, make sure you also resolve up to 4000nits. You will NOT lose any significant brightness, and the curve will be correct.

If you do use contrast to clip content in a curve ending in 4000nits, your curve is not correct anymore.

I am testing at the moment the 190-1000-4000 one in high lamp and I like it's punch better.

By the way, I checked the gamut (P3 saturations within BT2020) and gamma D is oversaturated. The custom curves are more "correct".
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post #20835 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You are not clipping anything with these curves and you should not use contrast to clip lower. They are universal. The first number tells you the actual peakY during calibration. The second number tells you the target (the lowest the number, the brighter the curve will look like but the less saturated it will be). The third number tells you where it's clipping.

So if you use a curve ending with 4000, you will never clip any content (provided you check your contrast/brightness settings on the panny with patterns or roughly copy mine).

If you can use the 200-1200-4000, it probably looks a bit less bright but a bit more saturated than the 190-1100-4000 one.

If you do want to clip, use a curve with no roll-off, ending in 1000 or 1100. These will work slightly better with content mastered to 1000-1000 nits, but they will clip highlights on some titles mastered to 4000nits.

If you use only one curve, make sure you use one ending with 4000nits and do not change the clipping point. With the patterns, make sure you also resolve up to 4000nits. You will NOT lose any significant brightness, and the curve will be correct.

If you do use contrast to clip content in a curve ending in 4000nits, your curve is not correct anymore.

I am testing at the moment the 190-1000-4000 one in high lamp and I like it's punch better.

By the way, I checked the gamut (P3 saturations within BT2020) and gamma D is oversaturated. The custom curves are more "correct".

Awesome, I'm going to give the 190-1000-4000 a go when I get home and will set contrast accordingly to resolve up to 4000 nits, if I'm interpreting your response correctly...


I have to agree, the Gamma D looks over cooked to me but I had to see one of your more natural curves to notice that...


I bet that's the first time someone has suggested u have "natural curves"

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post #20836 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 02:01 PM
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Regarding the custom gamma curves. I know there is different software for calibrating the 420/520/620. If I use the correct software for a 520 can I try these custom curves or are they specific to the 400/500/600 models?

Thanks
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post #20837 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post




...

But that's the point! We don't have flat panels, we shouldn't be targetting flat panel brightness. I don't want "MTO" content to be 100 nits, that's way, way too bright for a screen that takes up most of your field of view. I point back to calibration conventions for SDR. For SDR, content is mastered at 100nits peak (100% Y), yet this is way too bright for projection. For projection, we target a peak of 50 nits (around 14-16fL) for 100% Y. Again, for SDR.

So why not do this for HDR as well. SDR we want content to be <= 50nits. Dolby Cinema targets ~50nits for MTO content. So why should we not do the same for HDR at home, that only makes sense, theoreticaly. Chopping the whole curve in half reduces the problem greatly in the first place, and gets MTO content right where we're used to it with SDR, <=50nits. But now with the extra horsepower we've got with modern projectors, we've got some headroom left for the "specular levels", >50 nits.

Now no, it won't measure exactly the same as a flat panel, but that's kind of the point, if we target flat panel MTO levels, there's nothing left for highlights with projection, and everything is way too bright.

But I of course defer to Manni's experience with the multiplier levels and their side effects until I get a chance to investigate myself on my RS600.


MTO levels exist at Y50% and below. Target Y50% spectro readings btwn 12nits to 18 nits for a 104in wide/2.35 scope screen/Gain1.1 ... that's the target goal for a brighter picture for 100nit rigs, depending on screen size. Yref was PR670 spectro'd btwn 25 to 30 nits ... one time 37 nits from 4K HDR movies. That's about a 1to3 ratio given Ypeak is at 103 nits. That's a start.


You'll see Y15% to Y35% is where all the problems are with Jupiter Ascending, Star Trek Beyond, Batman v Superman and Bourne Identity. That's for a later time. Good luck!
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post #20838 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Awesome, I'm going to give the 190-1000-4000 a go when I get home and will set contrast accordingly to resolve up to 4000 nits, if I'm interpreting your response correctly...
I think you meant to say that you will set brightness using the black clipping pattern; not contrast. As Manni mentioned:

You are not clipping anything with these curves and you should not use contrast to clip lower. They are universal.

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post #20839 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I think you meant to say that you will set brightness using the black clipping pattern; not contrast. As Manni mentioned:

You are not clipping anything with these curves and you should not use contrast to clip lower. They are universal.
Thanks, sorry, I did mean contrast...I will use brightness to set black levels but so u and Manni are suggesting don't touch contrast and that the white clipping pattern should already clip at 4000 w/o touching contrast?

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post #20840 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 02:59 PM
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Thanks, sorry, I did mean contrast...I will use brightness to set black levels but so u and Manni are suggesting don't touch contrast and that the white clipping pattern should already clip at 4000 w/o touching contrast?
Yes, provided you are set-up properly and are using the Panny.
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post #20841 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 03:17 PM
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Revised 140-1100-4000

I have just uploaded in the low lamp section a slightly revised version of the 140-1100-4000 curve I posted yesterday.

I did this after a new calibration. It should be marginally brighter, so might possibly resolve a bit more shadow detail, and more accurate.

Remember that what determines the curve's overall brightness is the target (second number), not the brightness used to calibrate which I provide for reference only (first number).

This curve works fine in low lamp and high lamp. It's my default curve for now.

I use this curve in Custom1, 140-1100-1100 in custom 2, and 140-1000-1000 in custom 3.

That way, I use custom1 as a universal curve, if I know the movie is mastered to 1100nits I use custom2, and if I know it's mastered to 1000nits, I use custom3.

1100nits is what works best in my setup.

If you need more brightness, you can do the same thing with a 1000-4000 (universal) and a 1000-1000 (titles known as being mastered to 1000nits, or not having any content above 1000nits).

By the way, I checked the Batman vs Superman clip mentioned by Carbon, and it does have content above 1000nits (it goes as high or higher than my Mad Max clip).
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post #20842 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
Sorry if Y'all are sick of me posting good things about Chad...lol
No bother to me-- can't wait for his Chicago visit. Was curious, though, what your setup is like... screen size, gain, etc.

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post #20843 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have just uploaded in the low lamp section a slightly revised version of the 140-1100-4000 curve I posted yesterday.

I did this after a new calibration. It should be marginally brighter, so might possibly resolve a bit more shadow detail, and more accurate.

Remember that what determines the curve's overall brightness is the target (second number), not the brightness used to calibrate which I provide for reference only (first number).

This curve works fine in low lamp and high lamp. It's my default curve for now.

I use this curve in Custom1, 140-1100-1100 in custom 2, and 140-1000-1000 in custom 3.

That way, I use custom1 as a universal curve, if I know the movie is mastered to 1100nits I use custom2, and if I know it's mastered to 1000nits, I use custom3.

1100nits is what works best in my setup.

If you need more brightness, you can do the same thing with a 1000-4000 (universal) and a 1000-1000 (titles known as being mastered to 1000nits, or not having any content above 1000nits).

By the way, I checked the Batman vs Superman clip mentioned by Carbon, and it does have content above 1000nits (it goes as high or higher than my Mad Max clip).
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Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
I guess if it's good enough for you its fine. I will do some more testing, hopefully one of custom gamma curves that Manni has worked on will work for me. I have the Panasonic Integral combo and the conversion to SDR BT2020 looks great. I would like the option of viewing some of the UHD HDR titles if I can get a acceptable image.
Hey Guys,

So today I loaded custom curve 140-1100-4000 and I followed Manni settings brightness at +1 and contrast at 0 on the JVC and contrast at -2 and brightness at +7 on the Panny from his screen to mine. Understanding that the settings will be different on my screen as I have a larger screen. 100" Stewart StudioTek G3 1.3 Gain.

I had to make some adjustments on the panny, on Manni set up contrast was set to -2. I had to set contrast at +2 here I was able to see the 4000 nits bar 852 on the white clipping pattern from Masciola's patterns. I also had to adjust the brightness from the panny to +9 from Manni setting of +7. with this setting I was able see black clipping pattern Bar 81 2% and up.These setting are looking very positive so far. I viewed Suicide Squad and Magnificent 7 and they are looking good HDR.

Question

Are there any negatives using the panny brightness and contrast settings?
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post #20844 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 04:55 PM
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Hey Guys,

So today I loaded custom curve 140-1100-4000 and I followed Manni settings brightness at +1 and contrast at 0 on the JVC and contrast at -2 and brightness at +7 on the Panny from his screen to mine. Understanding that the settings will be different on my screen as I have a larger screen. 100" Stewart StudioTek G3 1.3 Gain.

I had to make some adjustments on the panny, on Manni set up contrast was set to -2. I had to set contrast at +2 here I was able to see the 4000 nits bar 852 on the white clipping pattern from Masciola's patterns. I also had to adjust the brightness from the panny to +9 from Manni setting of +7. with this setting I was able see black clipping pattern Bar 81 2% and up.These setting are looking very positive so far. I viewed Suicide Squad and Magnificent 7 and they are looking good HDR.

Question

Are there any negatives using the panny brightness and contrast settings?
Had you set brightness to +1 on the JVC? That's what I use as it's the max that doesn't raise the black floor on the PJ. But it might be necessary to adjust the brightness in the panny a little bit. +9 vs +7 for brightness doesn't sound abnormal, but +2 vs -2 sounds like quite a lot. Not sure why you would need this.

There is no downside to adjusting brightness on the player, in fact it's preferable if you only use it for UHD Bluray playback.

However, if you use the player for other content, these might not be the right settings and then you need to use the memories in the Panny, which is a drag.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-14-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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post #20845 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 05:11 PM
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Testing of content with 140-1100-4000V2 and 140-1000-1000

I checked a few of the titles that are supposed to be tricky along with the usual references using my latest 140-1100-4000 V2 in High Lamp, and I can't fault it, at least in my setup. It is a truly universal curve (not as it will work for everyone, but it does work very well for all titles if it is bright enough for you):

Batman vs Superman
Start Trek Beyond
Deadpool
Mad Max Fury Road
The Shallows
The Secret Life of Pets

All looked amazing and plenty bright, with good saturation (I use color at zero), great shadow detail and no clipping whatsoever.

I also tried 140-1000-1000 for Deadpool, Secret life of Pets and Star Trek Beyond, which are all mastered to 1000nits, and I did get as expected a little bit extra brightness in the highlights and a touch more contrast. It's not day and night, but if you know the metadata and can be bothered, it is visible and looks even nicer.

I tried low lamp and high lamp and had decided to use high lamp (200nits peakY here). HDR looks nicer, shadow detail is a little bit better resolved, and the higher peak brightness means that fade to black looks about the same perceptually, so apart from fan noise, heat and lamp life I don't see an advantage to using low lamp. I'd rather have the best HDR I can get (I still have 45000:1 native on/off with the iris fully open, which isn't that bad) and go to SDR BT2020 if it's a very dark movie with lots of fade to black.

I have to say that with these new curves, my goto mode is now HDR. I'll only go to SDR BT2020 (if I ever do) with super dark movies. Unless you move the slider all the way down to -12, you do clip content at 1200nits (with the setting I use at -6), so titles mastered to 4000nits like Mad Max or Batman vs Superman do suffer from the clipping (a bit).

This new testing made me want to re-watch all the HDR titles I watched in SDR BT2020 as I never liked Gamma D due to all its various issues. With a universal curve, the hassle of having to choose the right settings for each film is gone, so it makes HDR properly calibrated a much more viable option.

If I do settle to high lamp as I expect to, I'll probably do a 200-1100-4000 and a 200-1100-1100 next time I do a calibration. I'll share them of course, but they won't be significantly different from the ones we already have. If none of the current curves work for you, none of the new ones will.

Although I'd be interested to hear some feedback about the new 200-400-4000 I posted today. Does it work for some of you (it should be much brighter). Is it better than SDR BT2020, for those who can compare with that? It doesn't look better in my setup, but it might be in others.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-14-2017 at 05:28 PM.
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post #20846 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

There is no downside to adjusting brightness on the PJ, in fact it's preferable if you only use it for UHD Bluray playback.

However, if you use the player for other content, these might not be the right settings and then you need to use the memories in the Panny, which is a drag.
Manni, did you mean to say 'Player" instead of PJ?
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post #20847 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 05:27 PM
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Manni, did you mean to say 'Player" instead of PJ?
Yes I did, good catch, I'll edit it.
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post #20848 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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No bother to me-- can't wait for his Chicago visit. Was curious, though, what your setup is like... screen size, gain, etc.
I am using a 115" wide 2:35 Falcon Horizon screen. Supposedly the gain is around .8-1.0, but I am not 100% sure.
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post #20849 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 06:30 PM
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No worries, I had not planned to leave the thread, I just got tired of the theoretical debates, from people who know better without putting the hours in the experimentation of this new tool.
Great!!!! Just wanted to make sure you didn't walk away as you deemed necessary in another unnamed thread due to an unnamed person. Very unfortunate and I wanted to assure you that you'd be sorely missed. Thanks again for your great efforts.

Given my larger screen, I'm currently digging 140-1000-4000. I will give 200-400-4000 a try tonight. About to watch BL:LHW tonight with HFR @60fps . Need to change my Oppo fixed settings for this. Should be interesting as this is also clearly high resolution end-to-end.
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post #20850 of 31899 Old 02-14-2017, 06:40 PM
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Well, I gave it a shot. It was "quick" and dirty, but I'm pretty pleased. I generally followed Manni's process, except for a few tweaks we were discussing earlier, namely I used a 2x multiplier to keep "MTO" content in the range we want. I cranked my RS600 wide open, high lamp, managed to get about 125nits.

So in Calman and entered a screen offset of 2, and then went through the normal Calman HDR process. What I ended up with was this:

Two important things to note, since the screen offset is 2, all the numbers are double what they actually are. Second, this is not clipping at 125 nits, note the roll off that starts at about 50% and continues up to clipping at about 90%.

So what's it look like, well I'm pretty happy. I don't detect any loss in saturation vs SDR BT.2020. It's the first time I've looked at HDR and actually been pleased with it.

Well, here's my (probably screwed up) Gamma D:


Here's my new Custom Gamma 3, based on a 2x multiplier and roll off to (I think) something north of 1200 nits.


Here's my SDR Rec2020 version:


I attached my gamma file below if anyone wants to try it. I'm sure it's not as refined as Manni's if for no other reason than my i1Display Pro isn't as accurate as his Discus (of course there's my lack of experience too ). Use at your own risk
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Name:	Gamma D.jpg
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ID:	1968689   Click image for larger version

Name:	SDR_BT2020.jpg
Views:	817
Size:	154.4 KB
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Last edited by stanger89; 02-14-2017 at 06:44 PM.
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