Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 696 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20851 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Well, I gave it a shot. It was "quick" and dirty, but I'm pretty pleased. I generally followed Manni's process, except for a few tweaks we were discussing earlier, namely I used a 2x multiplier to keep "MTO" content in the range we want. I cranked my RS600 wide open, high lamp, managed to get about 125nits.

So in Calman and entered a screen offset of 2, and then went through the normal Calman HDR process. What I ended up with was this:

Two important things to note, since the screen offset is 2, all the numbers are double what they actually are. Second, this is not clipping at 125 nits, note the roll off that starts at about 50% and continues up to clipping at about 90%.

So what's it look like, well I'm pretty happy. I don't detect any loss in saturation vs SDR BT.2020. It's the first time I've looked at HDR and actually been pleased with it.

:
Stanger, in looking at your SDR BT2020 picture are you sure the PJ was not in gamma D when you took that shot? It looks unusually dark for SDR BT2020.
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post #20852 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 07:14 PM
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Pardon my ignorance but I cannot find the thread and 'search' is eluding me at the moment. Where can I find out how many peak nits a movie is mastered at?

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post #20853 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 07:15 PM
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I just finished watching Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk using Custom PQ Gamma Manni 140-1000-4000. The custom gamma worked well for me.

The 4K60 picture was a bit difficult to get used to. Too realistic looking.

The Oppo output 4K60 4:2:2 12-bit BT.2020 HDR even if I had the color space set to 4:4:4. I had one hiccup but it was not an HDMI cable issue; the player froze for a couple of seconds with the progress bar showing. I think it might have been a layer switch on the disc which I assume is a 100 GB disc.

Curious, I played the disc in my Samsung player. I was surprised that it output 4K60 4:4:4 8-bit. That is a bit of a downer for Samsung owners if that is typical.

I hooked up my HDFury Integral to the Samsung output and configured it to EDID 8. The Samsung player output was now 4K60 4:2:0 BT.2020 10-bit HDR. So this might be yet another use for the Integral.
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post #20854 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Pardon my ignorance but I cannot find the thread and 'search' is eluding me at the moment. Where can I find out how many peak nits a movie is mastered at?
Those us with the Oppo player only need to display the Info overlay screen. It reports the nits value.
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post #20855 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Those us with the Oppo player only need to display the Info overlay screen. It reports the nits value.
Crap. I should've known that -- Man I can't wait to try out these new gamma curves this weekend.

Are you still finding the need to bump color to between +5 and +10 on the JVC with these new curves?

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post #20856 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Although I'd be interested to hear some feedback about the new 200-400-4000 I posted today. Does it work for some of you (it should be much brighter). Is it better than SDR BT2020, for those who can compare with that? It doesn't look better in my setup, but it might be in others.
I have the 520 and to answer my own question from earlier in this thread I had no issue loading these custom gammas (I did use the JVC software for the new models). I tested a variety and I can see the benefit potential over the HDR even in my model (I find the highlights overcooked still). Here is my feedback for what its worth.

I have a 119" 16:9 Firehawk G3 in a semi-batcave - I do have some flat dark grey (not black) paint on the walls but the front screen wall is all black fabric. 18 feet throw.

The 200-400-4000 looked very good in my setup and I found I liked it best in low lamp mode even though it was not designed for that in your setup - with my iris dialed down similar to my normal non HDR viewing. The colors are a bit under saturated as expected but it is still very nice and would be good viewing but for the BT2020 STR thru the Integral that I still prefer I think. I find the BT2020 STR still overcooks the highlights but the higher color saturation makes it a bit preferred. If you ever get bored I suspect something around 200-600-4000 or 200-700-4000 would be my ticket in low lamp. Although I am not sure about that first number - seems maybe 140-600-4000 for low lamp? Sorry I will have to read and experiment more to even guess at that.

Of the others I tried the 140-1000-4000 I liked as well but again in a different lamp mode - High lamp for me. My preference for low lamp would probably have me choose your 200-400-4000 if I had only one to choose. I did not really do much brightness/contrast calibration just used my two presets already in the panny. I did dial up the color saturation to +4 for the 200-400-4000. I could impove those basic settings I am sure. They looked very good just keeping my standard settings in the panny.

Thanks for posting those. I may have to get a Spider 5 and see if I can figure out how to dial one in for my setup - my brain hurts just thinking about it.
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post #20857 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Crap. I should've known that -- Man I can't wait to try out these new gamma curves this weekend.

Are you still finding the need to bump color to between +5 and +10 on the JVC with these new curves?
I have settled on +7.

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post #20858 of 31979 Old 02-14-2017, 09:23 PM
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Arrival is one dark 1000 nit disc! I gave up one third of the way in and switched to BT.2020 SDR. Even then I ended up opening the auto iris a couple of clicks. It will be interesting to hear who has luck with the new gammas with this one.

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post #20859 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
I have the 520 and to answer my own question from earlier in this thread I had no issue loading these custom gammas (I did use the JVC software for the new models). I tested a variety and I can see the benefit potential over the HDR even in my model (I find the highlights overcooked still). Here is my feedback for what its worth.

I have a 119" 16:9 Firehawk G3 in a semi-batcave - I do have some flat dark grey (not black) paint on the walls but the front screen wall is all black fabric. 18 feet throw.

The 200-400-4000 looked very good in my setup and I found I liked it best in low lamp mode even though it was not designed for that in your setup - with my iris dialed down similar to my normal non HDR viewing. The colors are a bit under saturated as expected but it is still very nice and would be good viewing but for the BT2020 STR thru the Integral that I still prefer I think. I find the BT2020 STR still overcooks the highlights but the higher color saturation makes it a bit preferred. If you ever get bored I suspect something around 200-600-4000 or 200-700-4000 would be my ticket in low lamp. Although I am not sure about that first number - seems maybe 140-600-4000 for low lamp? Sorry I will have to read and experiment more to even guess at that.

Of the others I tried the 140-1000-4000 I liked as well but again in a different lamp mode - High lamp for me. My preference for low lamp would probably have me choose your 200-400-4000 if I had only one to choose. I did not really do much brightness/contrast calibration just used my two presets already in the panny. I did dial up the color saturation to +4 for the 200-400-4000. I could impove those basic settings I am sure. They looked very good just keeping my standard settings in the panny.

Thanks for posting those. I may have to get a Spider 5 and see if I can figure out how to dial one in for my setup - my brain hurts just thinking about it.
Thanks for your feedback.

As explained a few times, the first number is only for reference, so people know (including myself) how I generated the curve. But it scales very well as these are relative S-shaped curves, not absolute PQ curves. For example, I use at the moment my 140-1100-4000 in high lamp and in low lamp, it works great. It might be marginally more accurate if you use it in a mode similar to the mode it's been created, but it's the second number (target) which is the most important, and the last one (roll-off or not).

The 200-400-4000 is a super bright curve, very undersaturated. The 200-1200-4000 is the darkest curve, with the most saturation. I find 1000 or 1100nits works best in my setup, as it gives me plenty of brightness with good saturation.

So my suggestion is to ignore the first number (reference), and select the LUT with the highest second number (target), with a roll-off (4000) or clipping at 1100/1000 (last number.

Yes for most people with a large screen / low gain a 600, 700, 800, 900 would be great, but everyone can use the method to make the right one for them (resetting contrast and brightness in the player and in the JVC, maybe keeping +1 on brightness in the JVC to help a bit). Or ask someone to make one for them.

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I have settled on +7.
Just FYI it's Gamma D that's oversaturated, not the custom curves that are undersaturated (assuming after an autocal of the custom BT.2020 profile). It takes a while to get used to, because we have Gamma D reference for HDR now, but I now use color set to 0. I get plenty of colors when they are meant to be there, but it's not overcooked like Gamma D is.

It's fine to raise color to emulate gamma D, but I suggest to try with color set to zero for a while and see what you think. I double checked with Mad Max, and raising color even a little really overcooks everything.

This might be because I use a 1100-4000 version though, if you use a 1000 or worse the 400 curve, then you probably need to use color a bit. My last 140-1100-4000V2 measures very close to reference in P3 inside BT2020, at least here. Gamma D is significantly oversaturated.

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Well, I gave it a shot. It was "quick" and dirty, but I'm pretty pleased. I generally followed Manni's process, except for a few tweaks we were discussing earlier, namely I used a 2x multiplier to keep "MTO" content in the range we want. I cranked my RS600 wide open, high lamp, managed to get about 125nits.
You could have chosen a scene with more colors, and more highlights, I wonder why you have chosen a near black and white scene with a couple of taillights

As far as I can see on an SDR-Rec709 screen (i.e. not much), it's similar to what I get with my 200-400-4000. Undersaturated (compared to SDR-BT2020) and with very compressed highlights. I guess it's better than nothing with sources that can only send HDR and not SDR BT2020, but otherwise I don't see the point of watching HDR like this.

I suggest you display a scene from a title mastered to 4000nits that looks fantastic in HDR, for example The Shallows when she is on her rock in daylight and we see her hair, face, blood, the sea, the sky, and you will see better how undersaturated a 2X curve is, and how much it compresses the highlights.

My Discus trained to an i1pro2 makes zero difference to your i1display pro as color isn't involved (much) when working on white gamma. The only difference is that the i1d3 can't do a BT1886 curve, otherwise your can use about any reasonably accurate meter to do that, it's only luminance reading that counts and reading black (which the i1d3 is poor at) doesn't matter. The i1d3 is a perfect tool for the task.

With a peakY of 125nits you should try aiming for a 4X or 6X multiplier, you would get SIGNIFICANTLY better results. Try targeting 500nits, 600nits and 700nits. You will get more saturation, better highlights, and you will make lots of people happy if you share them, these are the curves people with a large screen/low gain, including yourself, are waiting for

I suspect you will prefer the 600 or 700nits one, even the 800nits one as you won't have any problem with brightness with these (your 125nits in high lamp isn't far from the 140nits I get in low lamp) but you will get a lot of saturation back.

But of course, that would mean I was right

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post #20860 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 01:09 AM
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Arrival is one dark 1000 nit disc! I gave up one third of the way in and switched to BT.2020 SDR. Even then I ended up opening the auto iris a couple of clicks. It will be interesting to hear who has luck with the new gammas with this one.
I'm now preferring the 140-1100-4000 v2 curve. I also tried the 200-400-4000 and found that it was definitely brighter. I'll have to try it another time in low lamp.

I also watched BL:LHW tonight and it definitely has a differently look to it with HFR. The full 4K resolution also helps give it the "hyper-realistic" look. I wouldn't call it soap opera, since it's so sharp. It's just 2.5x frames per second more than we're used to and there's not an once of panning issues. It will definitely take some getting use to, but I think it could work really well with SciFi or Action flicks. The combat scenes seemed much better suited to HFR than the close ups and basic character/dialogue driven scenes. It love to see some future films with space battles in 4K HFR where the action/panning just flowed. IMHO, it is the sharpest and possibly best example of UHD yet in my three dozen plus collection. It's too bad that most of the movie subject matter / shots didn't suit the new look.

You've confirmed my expectations after watching the BD version of Arrival that it was not worth buying in UHD. It's a 2K DI, there's no immersive sound track, and the movie is basically dull color-wise with some issues with raised blacks in the source (poor lighting, mastering?). I'm glad that I passed. Good movie though, so it's a shame that it didn't get better treatment.
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post #20861 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 01:13 AM
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I know you guys are busy discussing complicated matters, but can someone help me with some simple stuff?
I did some basic 2-point calibration with CalMan and C6 with MobileForge on Amazon stick as pattern source. This is done on a Custom picture mode with standard gamma and 6500 color temp calibrated previously by JVC software/Spyder 5 in accordance with Manni's instructions.
The reason I was doing this is because I was not satisfied with the results of autocal. I could always see pink/blueish tones on the picture.
Anyway, the result is attached. I can say that subjectively the picture looks better, but there's obviously something wrong with the results. The Software is targeting gamma 2.4 while the measurements are tracking 2.2. As a results colors show some errors, but converge nicely.
Another thing that I noticed and can't understand is that if I enable CMS in the color profile and start changing axis positions on any color, this doesn't have any effect on the measurements, while changing settings in the color temperature has immediate effect.
What I may have done wrong is I didn't turn off DI while making changes. I also used full field patterns and not windows or APL.
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post #20862 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 01:55 AM
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Crap. I should've known that -- Man I can't wait to try out these new gamma curves this weekend.

Are you still finding the need to bump color to between +5 and +10 on the JVC with these new curves?
Don't worry about not knowing how the titles are mastered. That's precisely why the curves with a roll-off (those ending with 4000) are there.

The difference with the curves clipping at 1000 or 1100nits (in fact they all clip at 1200nits so there is still a minimal roll-off and safety) is VERY minimal. Just use a 4000nits curve until you have a way to know how the title was mastered if you can be bothered.

I can see the effect when I switch from one curve to the next, but I doubt I'd be able to tell which is which with a few seconds in between. I will not lose sleep if I forget and watch a film in the 4000 curve. The penalty of the roll-off on the overall luminance of the curve is very minimal because of the way I do it. I start the roll off as late as possible in the curve, usually using only 80% (1200nits) as a control point, which means that up to 800nits (70%) there is no difference in contrast/brightness between a curve with a roll-off (ending in 4000) and a curve with a roll-off (ending in 1100 or 1000nits). The only difference will be between 800nits and 1000nits, which is not much of the picture (only the extreme highlights).

The penalty in contrast/brightness would be much more significant if I started the roll-off earlier, which is the main reason why I don't like ST2390 in principle, why would I start to roll-off earlier than at the very least 240nits? I guess it might make the picture more natural and balanced, but the hit on contrast/brightness would be stronger, and I think we need as much of this as we can get.

I should try one though, as it might give us more saturation, even if we lose on the overall brightness.

@rak306 , please could you give us the targets for 140nits and 200nits peakY at the following control points:

5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% and 95%.

I'll give it a try when I can, so at least we can see what it does to the picture.
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post #20863 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 05:25 AM
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Don't worry about not knowing how the titles are mastered. That's precisely why the curves with a roll-off (those ending with 4000) are there.

The difference with the curves clipping at 1000 or 1100nits (in fact they all clip at 1200nits so there is still a minimal roll-off and safety) is VERY minimal. Just use a 4000nits curve until you have a way to know how the title was mastered if you can be bothered.
Thank you Manni! I do have the new Oppo player and have been in the info OSD while a movie was playing, so I should be able to quickly determine what the movie was mastered at.

I did have another quick question... I'm currently making all the adjustments on my PJ and zeroing out the Oppo player. Am I correct that I should be zeroing out the JVC and do all my picture adjustments on the Oppo? I have a 130" wide AT screen, 16ft. throw... for HDR I am in High Lamp mode, -5... but I'm thinking wide open may be better with your custom curves. I plan using the following 3 custom curves per the calibration thread:

Custom1 140-1100-4000V2
Custom2 140-1100-1100
Custom3 140-1000-1000

With the Custom1 V1, I had adjusted BR and CR on the JVC, but I seem to remember black floor was better if making changes on the Oppo-- I thought I was going something wrong that the blacks looked so good.

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post #20864 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Thank you Manni! I do have the new Oppo player and have been in the info OSD while a movie was playing, so I should be able to quickly determine what the movie was mastered at.

I did have another quick question... I'm currently making all the adjustments on my PJ and zeroing out the Oppo player. Am I correct that I should be zeroing out the JVC and do all my picture adjustments on the Oppo? I have a 130" wide AT screen, 16ft. throw... for HDR I am in High Lamp mode, -5... but I'm thinking wide open may be better with your custom curves. I plan using the following 3 custom curves per the calibration thread:

Custom1 140-1100-4000V2
Custom2 140-1100-1100
Custom3 140-1000-1000

With the Custom1 V1, I had adjusted BR and CR on the JVC, but I seem to remember black floor was better if making changes on the Oppo-- I thought I was going something wrong that the blacks looked so good.

I'm going to try the 140 curves tonight...How do u find they compare to the 200 and 190 curves? I have a 120" screen...What kind of differences are you seeing? Thanks

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post #20865 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Thank you Manni! I do have the new Oppo player and have been in the info OSD while a movie was playing, so I should be able to quickly determine what the movie was mastered at.

I did have another quick question... I'm currently making all the adjustments on my PJ and zeroing out the Oppo player. Am I correct that I should be zeroing out the JVC and do all my picture adjustments on the Oppo? I have a 130" wide AT screen, 16ft. throw... for HDR I am in High Lamp mode, -5... but I'm thinking wide open may be better with your custom curves. I plan using the following 3 custom curves per the calibration thread:

Custom1 140-1100-4000V2
Custom2 140-1100-1100
Custom3 140-1000-1000

With the Custom1 V1, I had adjusted BR and CR on the JVC, but I seem to remember black floor was better if making changes on the Oppo-- I thought I was going something wrong that the blacks looked so good.
yes zero in the PJ to the exception of brightness to +1 (anything above that raises the black floor).

Raising brightness in the player can raise the black floor too, but it allows you to resolve more levels before it does.

Contrast should be adjusted in the player as well, but only if really necessary. And never raise contrast to clip lower in a 4000 curve, select a 1000 or a 1100 one instead.

By the way, this is based on the Panny, I don't have the Oppo.
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post #20866 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 06:44 AM
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I'm going to try the 140 curves tonight...How do u find they compare to the 200 and 190 curves? I have a 120" screen...What kind of differences are you seeing? Thanks
I only used V1 of the 140-1100-4000 and viewed the Revenant afterward. I thought overall PQ was fantastic, blacks were still a bit greyish compared to Rec709, but night/day difference from GammaD. Now that I know how the 140 curves should be used, I will explore other discs before the weekend. I (stupidly) didn't realize I could find out how many nits a movie was mastered at by hitting the Oppo 'info' button. With that info I will choose the most appropriate curve and go from there.

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yes zero in the PJ to the exception of brightness to +1 (anything above that raises the black floor).

Raising brightness in the player can raise the black floor too, but it allows you to resolve more levels before it does.

Contrast should be adjusted in the player as well, but only if really necessary. And never raise contrast to clip lower in a 4000 curve, select a 1000 or a 1100 one instead.

By the way, this is based on the Panny, I don't have the Oppo.
Awesome-- I realize your settings are based on the Panny, but I have the Masciola patterns so I will adjust Oppo brightness bassed off that. I wont touch contrast settings at all. I should have trusted my eyes and done my original BR/CR adjustments on the player-- I remember the black floor looking pretty good there.
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post #20867 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 07:19 AM
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Just installed the Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player in my HT which has the RS500 for display. I put in my first 1080p Blu-Ray movie last night ("Arrival") and the PJ info menu showed an HDR "YES" flag but (as expected) the Panny was indicating SDR Rec709. Can anyone suggest why the PJ is sensing HDR? The video chain is: Panny -> Yamaha RX-3050A -> Integral (EDID 8) -> RS500. BTW, the UHD 4K disc of "Lucy" is appropriately showing HDR BT.2020 on the Panny and HDR "YES" on the RS500. Thanks!
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post #20868 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

@rak306 , please could you give us the targets for 140nits and 200nits peakY at the following control points:

5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% and 95%.

I'll give it a try when I can, so at least we can see what it does to the picture.
BT.2390 mapping for 200 maxLum, minLum 0.001 Note: minLum adds a value to the PQ low end. That is why it is slightly higher than the input for low PQ:

.......Input...................Output
..PQ......(NIT)..............(NIT)....
0.05.......0.060...........0.075
0.10.......0.325...........0.362
0.20.......2.43.............2.53
0.30......10.04...........10.24
0.40......32.45...........32.20
0.50......92.25...........71.68
0.60....244.0...........119.3
0.70....620.9...........161.3
0.80..1555.2...........187.9
0.90..3905.6...........198.7
0.95..6228.0...........200.1




For maxLum = 140 NITS:



.......Input....................Output
..PQ......(NIT)..............(NIT)....
0.05.......0.060...........0.075
0.10.......0.325...........0.362
0.20.......2.43.............2.53
0.30......10.04...........10.24
0.40......32.45...........29.19
0.50......92.25...........57.96
0.60....244.0.............89.84
0.70....620.9...........116.46
0.80..1555.2...........132.8
0.90..3905.6...........139.4
0.95..6228.0...........140.2
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post #20869 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
BT.2390 mapping for 200 maxLum, minLum 0.001 Note: minLum adds a value to the PQ low end. That is why it is slightly higher than the input for low PQ:

.......Input...................Output
..PQ......(NIT)..............(NIT)....
0.05.......0.060...........0.075
0.10.......0.325...........0.362
0.20.......2.43.............2.53
0.30......10.04...........10.24
0.40......32.45...........32.20
0.50......92.25...........71.68
0.60....244.0...........119.3
0.70....620.9...........161.3
0.80..1555.2...........187.9
0.90..3905.6...........198.7
0.95..6228.0...........200.1




For maxLum = 140 NITS:



.......Input....................Output
..PQ......(NIT)..............(NIT)....
0.05.......0.060...........0.075
0.10.......0.325...........0.362
0.20.......2.43.............2.53
0.30......10.04...........10.24
0.40......32.45...........29.19
0.50......92.25...........57.96
0.60....244.0.............89.84
0.70....620.9...........116.46
0.80..1555.2...........132.8
0.90..3905.6...........139.4
0.95..6228.0...........140.2

Thanks a lot for this, much appreciated. I'll give this a try asap and I'll report.
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post #20870 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:15 AM
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For those talking about the "undersaturated" colors, remember that the colors were already oversaturated with the previous HDR settings. When you go to a cinema the last thing you are seeing is over saturated cartoon colors. They should look very balanced. I loaded one of Manni's curves last night and did a full calibration in Calman and it is showing the colors being right about where they should be. I just think people got used to looking at colors that were dialed too high, which is one of the reasons I didn't care for HDR before and actually preferred turning it off for 709 colors that looked more natural.

I watched Arrival on UHD last night. Overall the image was about what I expected having seen it twice in theaters. It is a bit darker than I would have preferred, almost murky, but in line with what I remembered from the movie theaters. Since black levels in theaters are always pretty crappy I think it was a bit elevated there, where at home blacks look much darker and therefore the movie looks darker as well. I will look at the standard Blu-ray tonight to see how it fares. I was disappointed that they didn't include an immersive track on this (I think this should be standard on all UHD titles) but the DTS mix was fantastic.

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post #20871 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
BT.2390 mapping for 200 maxLum, minLum 0.001 Note: minLum adds a value to the PQ low end. That is why it is slightly higher than the input for low PQ:
Ooops, just noticed 15% was missing, would you have it by any chance? Thanks!
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post #20872 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Ooops, just noticed 15% was missing, would you have it by any chance? Thanks!

For both cases, at 15% (1.0 NIT input), the output is 1.06 NIT output.

(The only reason that the output is not equal to the input at these low PQ stim values is that minLUM is added to the output).
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post #20873 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
For both cases, at 15% (1.0 NIT input), the output is 1.06 NIT output.

(The only reason that the output is not equal to the input at these low PQ stim values is that minLUM is added to the output).
Great thanks
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post #20874 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I loaded one of Manni's curves last night and did a full calibration in Calman and it is showing the colors being right about where they should be.
Just to be sure, is it advisable to do the autocal before or after Manni's custom curves are loaded?
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post #20875 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Just to be sure, is it advisable to do the autocal before or after Manni's custom curves are loaded?
Just follow the steps he outlines in the thread. But it would be before. Ideally you would have something like CalMan to check the gamma with for your personal setup afterwards, which is what I am doing. But again, he explains it step by step in the threads and it was easy to follow along.
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post #20876 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 09:10 AM
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Kris when you have a chance during evaluation of the 620, can you please provide feedback on the 600's Gamma D vs. the 620 version? is it considerably better than the 2016 version and if so, how far does it still deviate from the excellent curves that Manni has come up with?

Do you still have a 2016 model in your HT? thx!
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post #20877 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Just installed the Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player in my HT which has the RS500 for display. I put in my first 1080p Blu-Ray movie last night ("Arrival") and the PJ info menu showed an HDR "YES" flag but (as expected) the Panny was indicating SDR Rec709. Can anyone suggest why the PJ is sensing HDR? The video chain is: Panny -> Yamaha RX-3050A -> Integral (EDID 8) -> RS500. BTW, the UHD 4K disc of "Lucy" is appropriately showing HDR BT.2020 on the Panny and HDR "YES" on the RS500. Thanks!
After a bit more investigating, I see that the HDR flag is present from the Panny to the RS500 for ALL source material, irrespective of known non-HDR content, when the Integral is in EDID 8. Is this true for those of you who have the Panny? BTW, as expected, when the Integral is set to EDID 10 the RS500 does not show the HDR flag but immediately returns to showing the HDR flag when returned to EDID 8. Is this perhaps a defective unit? Thanks!
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post #20878 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Stanger, in looking at your SDR BT2020 picture are you sure the PJ was not in gamma D when you took that shot? It looks unusually dark for SDR BT2020.
It's just a bit underexposed, I used exactly the same exposure/settings in all three shots, and I originally exposed so I didn't blow out anything with ~125 peak white, yet I don't have my SDR Rec 2020 cal that bright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You could have chosen a scene with more colors, and more highlights, I wonder why you have chosen a near black and white scene with a couple of taillights
Well, those were the pics I was least unhappy with. I looked at a number of scenes from Star Trek Beyond and Pacific Rim, mainly because I'd just looked at Star Trek recently, so I remembered how bad it looked with Gamma D, and Pacific rim is one has a few scenes where I really remember the color/saturation sticking out to me.

Quote:
As far as I can see on an SDR-Rec709 screen (i.e. not much), it's similar to what I get with my 200-400-4000. Undersaturated (compared to SDR-BT2020) and with very compressed highlights. I guess it's better than nothing with sources that can only send HDR and not SDR BT2020, but otherwise I don't see the point of watching HDR like this.
When I was flipping back and forth between HDR and SDR+2020, I didn't notice any difference in colors on my RS600. That said, I basically agree on the no point, the black level is just raised so high when trying to make HDR work, vs SDR+2020. However, like I said above, this is really the first time I've run HDR on my projector and not been totally disgusted by the "blacks".

Quote:
I suggest you display a scene from a title mastered to 4000nits that looks fantastic in HDR, for example The Shallows when she is on her rock in daylight and we see her hair, face, blood, the sea, the sky, and you will see better how undersaturated a 2X curve is, and how much it compresses the highlights.
I don't have that one, any other suggestions, or isn't here a list somewhere of movies and their maxcll values?

Quote:
My Discus trained to an i1pro2 makes zero difference to your i1display pro as color isn't involved (much) when working on white gamma. The only difference is that the i1d3 can't do a BT1886 curve, otherwise your can use about any reasonably accurate meter to do that, it's only luminance reading that counts and reading black (which the i1d3 is poor at) doesn't matter. The i1d3 is a perfect tool for the task.
I was thinking the i1d3 was not great down low, I know with my normal (SDR) config, my screen is too dark at black to even register on my i1d3.

Quote:
With a peakY of 125nits you should try aiming for a 4X or 6X multiplier, you would get SIGNIFICANTLY better results. Try targeting 500nits, 600nits and 700nits. You will get more saturation, better highlights, and you will make lots of people happy if you share them, these are the curves people with a large screen/low gain, including yourself, are waiting for
I'll probably just try one of yours at that rate, I want to see what the perceptual difference is between 2x and 4 or 6x multiplier. It sounds like a lot, but then again our perception of brightness is logarithmic, so maybe it doesn't really look darker. What I do know is that when I used the "white clipping target divided by measured Ymax" method, I ended up with an HDR picture that was way, way too dark.

Quote:
I suspect you will prefer the 600 or 700nits one, even the 800nits one as you won't have any problem with brightness with these (your 125nits in high lamp isn't far from the 140nits I get in low lamp) but you will get a lot of saturation back.

But of course, that would mean I was right
Maybe I'm not looking at the right content/movies, but like I said, I didn't notice any saturation issues with the curve I used. Of course I'm also using a custom colorspace that I made to compensate for errors in my Spyder 5. Unfortunately I did that and a gamma autocal at the same time, but that whole recalibration really kicked saturation up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
I know you guys are busy discussing complicated matters, but can someone help me with some simple stuff?
I did some basic 2-point calibration with CalMan and C6 with MobileForge on Amazon stick as pattern source. This is done on a Custom picture mode with standard gamma and 6500 color temp calibrated previously by JVC software/Spyder 5 in accordance with Manni's instructions.
The reason I was doing this is because I was not satisfied with the results of autocal. I could always see pink/blueish tones on the picture.
Anyway, the result is attached. I can say that subjectively the picture looks better, but there's obviously something wrong with the results. The Software is targeting gamma 2.4 while the measurements are tracking 2.2. As a results colors show some errors, but converge nicely.
Another thing that I noticed and can't understand is that if I enable CMS in the color profile and start changing axis positions on any color, this doesn't have any effect on the measurements, while changing settings in the color temperature has immediate effect.
What I may have done wrong is I didn't turn off DI while making changes. I also used full field patterns and not windows or APL.
Definitely turn off the DI, it will screw up all your gamma measurements since the reference changes with APL. Full field patterns are fine.

If you do it again without the DI, and still have that wonky gamma, then it's time for an autocal, that will fix your gamma right up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
For those talking about the "undersaturated" colors, remember that the colors were already oversaturated with the previous HDR settings. When you go to a cinema the last thing you are seeing is over saturated cartoon colors. They should look very balanced. I loaded one of Manni's curves last night and did a full calibration in Calman and it is showing the colors being right about where they should be. I just think people got used to looking at colors that were dialed too high, which is one of the reasons I didn't care for HDR before and actually preferred turning it off for 709 colors that looked more natural.

I watched Arrival on UHD last night. Overall the image was about what I expected having seen it twice in theaters. It is a bit darker than I would have preferred, almost murky, but in line with what I remembered from the movie theaters. Since black levels in theaters are always pretty crappy I think it was a bit elevated there, where at home blacks look much darker and therefore the movie looks darker as well. I will look at the standard Blu-ray tonight to see how it fares. I was disappointed that they didn't include an immersive track on this (I think this should be standard on all UHD titles) but the DTS mix was fantastic.
If you get bored, try the gamma I posted above. One thing that I immediately noticed is Star Trek Beyond didn't look too dark. Those early scenes on the ship still looked dimly lit (like they're supposed to) but didn't have that way too dark look that you sometimes get with it.

I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.
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post #20879 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post





...

No worries, I had not planned to leave the thread, I just got tired of the theoretical debates, from people who know better without putting the hours in the experimentation of this new tool.


Who are you referring to?
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post #20880 of 31979 Old 02-15-2017, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Had you set brightness to +1 on the JVC? That's what I use as it's the max that doesn't raise the black floor on the PJ. But it might be necessary to adjust the brightness in the panny a little bit. +9 vs +7 for brightness doesn't sound abnormal, but +2 vs -2 sounds like quite a lot. Not sure why you would need this.

There is no downside to adjusting brightness on the player, in fact it's preferable if you only use it for UHD Bluray playback.

However, if you use the player for other content, these might not be the right settings and then you need to use the memories in the Panny, which is a drag.
Thank You!!


Yes I have the brightness of the PJ at +1. The new curve is a major improvement over the D gamma. However I think I want to create my own curve targeting 1100Nits to my screen. Hopefully you can lead me to the right direction.


I have the Spyder 5 and the JVC Auto Cal.
I have Calman Enthusiast with a profile i1 Display from i1pro.


Before starting the JVC Auto cal with the Spyder 5 do I keep the D gamaa on the PJ with my settings of PT-12 DL-2 BL-2?
Little help please.
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