Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 698 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20911 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Thanks for your response. As I pointed out, as expected, the PJ does not show the HDR flag with EDID 10, but I typically leave the Integral at EDID 8 (essentially 4:2:0 pass through) with all other content that I don't need to change to SDR BT.2020. The other UHD players never sent an HDR flag with non-HDR material (especially Rec 709). That's my question regarding the Panny.


Hey yeah HDR is on at all time on the Panny.

Edid10 makes it go away. With no fury in the chain it will show. But the projector doesnt act on it until real hdr is transmit. Its just a strange flag error. Happened all of a sudden after a panny update last year.
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post #20912 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Just follow the auto cal instructions in that thread.

Then when you're done, and want to make your own curve (this is what I did):
  • Fire up Calman and JVC Autocal
  • In the JVC autocal pick the gamma option, then pick a custom gamma and natural.
  • On the JVC, pick the user mode you plan to use for HDR, pick the custom gamma you chose in the Autocal software, and choose IMPORT as the correction.
  • I'd go through each level then, and adjust the output value so they're "in the ballpark" of one of Manni's custom gammas (just use the mouse to drag the slider until it's close).
    • this will save you a lot of time later, since every click, or every time you let go of the mouse, there's about a 15-20 second wait for it to update the projector.
  • In Calman, choose the HDR10 workflow, I just skipped directly to the gamma portion. You'll want to enter your choice of multiplier in the Screen offset (workflow advanced IIRC).
  • I'd run a measurement sequence first, so you know where you stand
  • Then basically go through one level at a time, tweaking the JVC Autocal software up/down as necessary for that input level until you're right on the money as far as Y value, right on the line.
  • If you follow the Calman target exactly, you'll end up hard clipping at some point, so you'll want to reduce those output levels a bit so there's a smooth-ish transition.
  • When you get out to about 90%, IIRC that's about 4000 nits, and you'll definitely want to max out the output level (1023) there so you're not wasting brightness where there's no content.
Let us know what you come up with

Oh, specifically regarding Gamma D, it's irrelevant, you're creating an entirely new gamma profile that has nothing to do with the JVC's built in D, it's completely independent.
Good summary

One thing that makes things much faster/easier to make your own curve: simply import any of the curves that's close to what you're aiming for using the import/export option before running the gamma option. Then, select the custom gamma in which you've imported one of the curves. That will be much faster as a starting point, and no need for a "ballpark" estimation, you'll be there right away.

I had to start from normal because Gamma D wasn't an option, but now any of my curves (or anyone's) can be imported as a starting point before hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Sounds like you're saying that it's better to do any adjustments in the player, I'm curious as to why if one is not raising black floor? Due to JVC syncing delays and gamma switching, I find it much easier to use my HTPC for dialing in the settings in the JVC and leaving the Oppo alone. I also have an XBox One S, so I prefer the settings in the projector verse in each source. At some point, I expect that HDR in the HTPC will also be available for at least some games (if it's not already).

I'll have to confirm that anything above BR +1 raises the black floor in HDR BT.2020 using the Hide function in my setup. Right now, I'm setting it to around +16 with your latest (v2) 140-1100-4000 curve which I like a lot. I'm at around +7 with the 200-400-4000 curve, but haven't tried that one in low lamp yet. My Iris -5 for all settings and lamp High with HDR. I'm guessing that a 125-750-4000 would be the best curve for my setup/screen, but can live with the 140-1100-4000 for now since I'm pretty lazy and busy watching stuff.
I only make recommendations based on my setup, which is Panny as a source, Denon X7200WA and RS500, setup with the Panny sending HDR YCC 4:4:4 12bits. The Panny uses HDMI Standard and reports YUV HDR 12bits. Anything different will probably require different contrast/settings options.

Given that in this configuration anything above brightness = +1 raises the black floor (on my model), I recommend using the player's settings to adjust brightness beyond that. This is also Javs recommendation. The main downside is if you use the player to play other content, you're in trouble. In that case I agree that if the PJ's controls are granular enough to resolve down to where you want ot, it's better to use them, as in more flexible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I just asked this question earlier today on the previous page. Leave JVC settings BR +1 / CR 0

Make BR adjustments on the oppo, you should not have to change anything with regard to to CR on the Oppo. Use the Masciola patterns.
Just to point out that following a conversation with Kris today I double checked my brightness/contrast levels and decided to go for brightness and contrast set to 0 on the PJ, and using only adjustments in the player. I ended up with brightness to +6 (instead of +7) and contrast to -1 in the Panny.

I use my HTPC (MadVR/MadTPG) as a pattern generator for calibration, so the Panny plays no part at all in the calibration process and the generation of the curve.

This is why I have to make adjustments afterwards in the player, so that it matches the way the curve is designed.

The only thing I did differently is I set contrast to zero before trying to adjust the roll-off, but it led me to a curve that didn't look right so I went back to -1 contrast on the Panny to reach the roll-off I wanted. I also use -1 for bluray, so it looks like what the player needs anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
@Manni01 and all...

1. Is there a consensus on whether the 520/620 offers materially better PQ over the 500/600, for HDR or otherwise? I know its hard to ask if its "worth" upgrading to for those of us that bought the 500/600 late last year, since that's a subjective question. But that said, is it worth it?

2. I've seen some posts about HDR calibration recently - I'm a techie but some of this looks like it requires quite a learning curve to calibrate HDR (beyond just using the JVC autocal) ...?

3. Now that the line has been refreshed, is there a feel for whether the 520/620 will be updated again at CEDIA 2017 or is the 520/620 update likely the last until 2018?

Thanks!
Hi Ric,

I have no idea if the new models are significantly improved or not, but I know that they are not improved enough for you to be able to benefit from HDR in your setup. You need to have at least 100nits peak white available to start making a positive difference from SDR-BT2020. You could try one of my new curves (either the 200-400-4000 or the new ST2390 I'm going to post later), but I recommend you compare the picture with SDR BT2020 (targeting 100nits or as much as you can, not 50nits) with the SDR slider set to -6 in the Panny and contrast set to -1 before making a decision.
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post #20913 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 03:33 PM
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Three new curves including an ST2390 attempt

I have made three new curves as I've now settled on high lamp. I keep 1100nits as a target as that's the best compromise for me in my setup. The fact that these curves have been made in high doesn't mean they have to be used at the same brightness level. They scale fairly well. Otherwise, feel free to use the last 140-1100-4000V2, it should be very similar. If these curves are too dim, try one of the 1000nits ones. If these are too dim, try 200-400-4000 or the ST2390 one (see below). Ideally, you want a curve made for your setup.

I have stopped switching between curves, I find it completely unnecessary given how well a universal curve with a minor roll-off works for a variety of content.

I also found that using a curve that clips at 1000/1100 leads to excessive highlights and unnatural contrast, so I've tried a different method (explained below). I've provided that curve even if I don't plan to use it.

Thanks to Rak306 who kindly provided the targets as Calman doesn't support this standard yet, I've tried an experimental ST2390 curve (future standard to handle HDR10 playback for consumer taking into account the actual peak brightness of the display). I didn't like it (I wasn't expecting to, but I didn't want to leave that stone unturned as I could have been wrong). I won't use it but some might find it useful in their setup. By the way, I had to use no multiplier for this one because Rak306 provided the absolute targets for my peakY. So in the chart below, only look at the data for Y and Target Y, don't pay attention to the graphs or the dE for that curve, they are not meaningful. I also attach a screenshot of my latest 200-1100-4000 for reference so you can see the differences between the ST2084 curve using the multiplier and the ST2390 curve. My actual PeakY had dropped a bit to 196nits but that won't make a significant difference in the result.

This marks the end of my research cycle. Until there is some progress one way or the other, I'll be happy with my latest 200-1100-4000 as a universal curve to play all my titles, irrespective of the way each disc is mastered.

Here is the detail (I don't put the links there in case I have to update them, they will be in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread here as usual https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...0-rs600.html):

[EDIT 02-15-17: I now use brightness and contrast both set to zero in the JVC and brightness=+6 and contrast =-1 in the Panny].

02-15-17: 200-1100-4000. As I've decided to use High Lamp, I've made this curve which doesn't bring anything major. It's just the latest I've done for my setup, so feel free to try it.

02-15-17: 200-1100-1100. Here is the same curve, with a sharper roll-off. I've slightly changed my method as I found that clipping hard at 80% leads to unnatural extreme highlights. This method should provide the same results, but it will resolve a bit higher, without clipping that hard.

02-15-17: 200-ST2390-4000. This is an attempt at creating an ST2390 curve (many thanks to Rak306 for providing the targets for this curve as it's not supported in Calman yet). I don't like the results, way too bright and undersaturated in my setup, but others might like it, especially those with some ambient light (it comes out of black much faster) and some with very large screens / low gain screens. It's an alternative to the 200-400-4000 for those in that situation.

Enjoy and good luck in creating your own curves!
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post #20914 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hey yeah HDR is on at all time on the Panny.

Edid10 makes it go away. With no fury in the chain it will show. But the projector doesn't act on it until real hdr is transmit. Its just a strange flag error. Happened all of a sudden after a panny update last year.
Many thanks, as always, Javs, for your knowledge base. The Panny was otherwise working properly, so I was hoping that it was a firmware glitch since no flag was being seen with EDID 10. First impression has been that there isn't a ton of difference between the Panny and the Philips on remapping to SDR BT.2020 in EDID 10, but I still need to play around a bit with the Panny's SDR slider. I previously asked whether anyone could provide the optimal values for tweaking the Panny in both BT.2020 SDR and HDR (brightness, contrast, gamma related sliders, etc.), but I haven't yet received any responses to that question...........
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post #20915 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Many thanks, as always, Javs, for your knowledge base. The Panny was otherwise working properly, so I was hoping that it was a firmware glitch since no flag was being seen with EDID 10. First impression has been that there isn't a ton of difference between the Panny and the Philips on remapping to SDR BT.2020 in EDID 10, but I still need to play around a bit with the Panny's SDR slider. I previously asked whether anyone could provide the optimal values for tweaking the Panny in both BT.2020 SDR and HDR (brightness, contrast, gamma related sliders, etc.), but I haven't yet received any responses to that question...........


Please read the post in my sig, its been there for a long time. Its still what I use for SDR. For HDR i suggest you follow Mannis curve else try the settings in my sig once again.

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post #20916 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Please read the post in my sig, its been there for a long time. Its still what I use for SDR. For HDR i suggest you follow Mannis curve else try the settings in my sig once again.
Yep, that was one of the significant posts that I remembered. At the time it didn't matter to me because I didn't have the Panny. Thanks for directing me to your sig.
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post #20917 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Good summary

One thing that makes things much faster/easier to make your own curve: simply import any of the curves that's close to what you're aiming for using the import/export option before running the gamma option. Then, select the custom gamma in which you've imported one of the curves. That will be much faster as a starting point, and no need for a "ballpark" estimation, you'll be there right away.

I had to start from normal because Gamma D wasn't an option, but now any of my curves (or anyone's) can be imported as a starting point before hand.

I only make recommendations based on my setup, which is Panny as a source, Denon X7200WA and RS500, setup with the Panny sending HDR YCC 4:4:4 12bits. The Panny uses HDMI Standard and reports YUV HDR 12bits. Anything different will probably require different contrast/settings options.

Given that in this configuration anything above brightness = +1 raises the black floor (on my model), I recommend using the player's settings to adjust brightness beyond that. This is also Javs recommendation. The main downside is if you use the player to play other content, you're in trouble. In that case I agree that if the PJ's controls are granular enough to resolve down to where you want ot, it's better to use them, as in more flexible.
Shouldn't that be 4:2:2? Not trying to nitpick. I can get confused easily.

Hope someone can post a 200-800-4000 file, which I gather might work with my 1.3 gain 140" 2.35 screen.

Love your research.

Edit: corrected color notation
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post #20918 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 04:37 PM
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Omg!!!

Using Manni's 200-1200-4000 wow!!! Dead pool never looked so pehenomenal!! I really couldn't even watch it in gamma d but this new curve is amazing...finally a proper red suit!! I think this will be my goto curve...nice blacks!! Very accurate color! I did pump contrast up a bit for a bit of pop and I can see I'm clipping some clouds but a stunning hdr picture now!!! Who said hdr was lousy on this series of JVC's??? very accepatable now!! Thanks Manni!

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post #20919 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have made three new curves as I've now settled on high lamp. I keep 1100nits as a target as that's the best compromise for me in my setup.
Manni, do your settings require the use of JVC's autocal feature, or could they be employed by a competent calibrator with his own tools?
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post #20920 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post
Shouldn't that be 4:4:2? Not trying to nitpick. I can get confused easily.

Hope someone can post a 200-800-4000 file, which I gather might work with my 1.3 gain 140" 2.35 screen.

Love your research.
You mean 4:2:2.

No not really, with deep colour on, the Panasonic is (Excellently I might add) up-scaling chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, there is merit in it.

I run mine the same way.
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post #20921 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You mean 4:2:2.

No not really, with deep colour on, the Panasonic is (Excellently I might add) up-scaling chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, there is merit in it.

I run mine the same way.
Yep. Meant 4:2:2. Thx.

I understand now.
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post #20922 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GGA View Post
Shouldn't that be 4:4:2? Not trying to nitpick. I can get confused easily.

Hope someone can post a 200-800-4000 file, which I gather might work with my 1.3 gain 140" 2.35 screen.

Love your research.
Thanks. See Javs reply above, 4:4:4 is preferable with the Panny as its chroma upscaling is excellent (I think only MadVr or a Radiance Pro could do better). If your cable is weak, then yes you have to use 4:2:2, otherwise I recommend 4:4:4 if your cables can take the bandwidth, at least with the Panny. With a less capable player, I probably wouldn't bother. Note that this is more visible with DVD/Bluray. With UHD Bluray, Chroma is already 1080p, so the difference is less drastic.

By the way, the first number in the gamma curve file name isn't relevant. I give it for reference only, so people know at which peakY I created the curve, but it has little to no effect on the actual performance in another setup. My 140-1100-4000 is near identical to my 200-1100-4000, both in low lamp (140nits) and high lamp (200nits). I wouldn't be able to tell which is which in a blind test, and both work equally well in both setups. This is because these curves are relative S-curves, they are not absolute like a standard PQ Gamma curve.

So it's the second number that matters most. You want a xxx-800-4000 curve .

Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Using Manni's 200-1200-4000 wow!!! Dead pool never looked so pehenomenal!! I really couldn't even watch it in gamma d but this new curve is amazing...finally a proper red suit!! I think this will be my goto curve...nice blacks!! Very accurate color! I did pump contrast up a bit for a bit of pop and I can see I'm clipping some clouds but a stunning hdr picture now!!! Who said hdr was lousy on this series of JVC's??? very accepatable now!! Thanks Manni!
You're welcome, and glad that one worked for you! You might want to try the 200-1100-4000 I realease today, it should be very similar with a tiny bit more saturation as the target is a bit lower. That's why I settled on a 1100nits target here. [edit: late night brain fart spotted by an eagle eyed reader, the latest 1100nits should look a bit less saturated, not more than the 1200nits you are using. It would be a bit brighter though.

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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Manni, do your settings require the use of JVC's autocal feature, or could they be employed by a competent calibrator with his own tools?
A competent calibrator WILL use the JVC Autocal. At the moment, nothing beats it for an HDR calibration.

It generates an excellent baseline, and then a competent calibrator will do a touch up with better tools (like using reference meters, a Spyder is most certainly not accurate enough on its own) to bring it to near reference, for example set 100% white to D65, use the CMS with moderation, and generate a custom gamma curve for HDR. There is no way around the JVC Autocal right now unless you have a Radiance Pro. A good calibrator will also create custom gamuts for the JVC Autocal to compensate for any errors in their specific Spyder to improve the results further, for example maximise the gamut size.

I would go as far as saying that a calibrator who calibrates a JVC without using the JVC Autocal software isn't a competent JVC calibrator, especially for HDR, but that's my opinion. The Radiance Pro and its shaping LUT (when it's fully functional) will be the only way to improve things further, primarily because it should allow to get an accurate HDR calibration AND get the DI back, but in my opinion it's still a good idea to get the best possible baseline with the JVC Autocal before creating a 3D LUT, even if only to save time.

For example, if I don't use the JVC Autocal, I need to create a 3D LUT that takes 2 hours (with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, a Klein K10a would be at least four times faster) to get reference results. With a JVC Autocal baseline, it will only take 10mn because I can run a Lightning LUT in Calman (100 points) instead of a full 17x17x17 LUT (5000points) to produce as good and even sometimes better results.
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post #20923 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:39 PM
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by the way guys, couple of times I noticed HDR as yes with the jvc and thats feeding a non HDR image from the pana eg with a blu-ray ? is this a bug on the panas part or something to do with the chroma up sampling ? note this is wiht image clearly not HDR and using the HDR or gamma D preset.

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post #20924 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

A competent calibrator WILL use the JVC Autocal. At the moment, nothing beats it for an HDR calibration.

It generates an excellent baseline, and then a competent calibrator will do a touch up with better tools (like using reference meters, a Spyder is most certainly not accurate enough on its own) to bring it to near reference, for example set 100% white to D65, use the CMS with moderation, and generate a custom gamma curve for HDR. There is no way around the JVC Autocal right now unless you have a Radiance Pro. A good calibrator will also create custom gamuts for the JVC Autocal to compensate for any errors in their specific Spyder to improve the results further, for example maximise the gamut size.

I would go as far as saying that a calibrator who calibrates a JVC without using the JVC Autocal software isn't a competent JVC calibrator, especially for HDR, but that's my opinion. The Radiance Pro and its shaping LUT (when it's fully functional) will be the only way to improve things further, primarily because it should allow to get an accurate HDR calibration AND get the DI back, but in my opinion it's still a good idea to get the best possible baseline with the JVC Autocal before creating a 3D LUT, even if only to save time.

For example, if I don't use the JVC Autocal, I need to create a 3D LUT that takes 2 hours (with my Discus trained to my i1pro2, a Klein K10a would be at least four times faster) to get reference results. With a JVC Autocal baseline, it will only take 10mn because I can run a Lightning LUT in Calman (100 points) instead of a full 17x17x17 LUT (5000points) to produce as good and even sometimes better results.
Wow. Ok. I plan at some point to bring in the guy who has been calibrating my projector (he's competent! has the right gear etc). I suppose he would have access to the JVC autocal stuff (it's just software you download to a laptop and use with a light meter, right? I remember it only worked with one meter at one point -spyder? - but now it works with other meters?)

Then I'd point him towards your recommended settings.

If the autocal is so fast, maybe it won't be a terribly expensive day for me.
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
by the way guys, couple of times I noticed HDR as yes with the jvc and thats feeding a non HDR image from the pana eg with a blu-ray ? is this a bug on the panas part or something to do with the chroma up sampling ? note this is wiht image clearly not HDR and using the HDR or gamma D preset.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50790033
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post #20926 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Wow. Ok. I plan at some point to bring in the guy who has been calibrating my projector (he's competent! has the right gear etc). I suppose he would have access to the JVC autocal stuff (it's just software you download to a laptop and use with a light meter, right? I remember it only worked with one meter at one point -spyder? - but now it works with other meters?)

Then I'd point him towards your recommended settings.

If the autocal is so fast, maybe it won't be a terribly expensive day for me.
It will be expensive if the calibrator doesn't know the software already. It's a steep learning curve...

For more info and for all questions, please see this thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html
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post #20927 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Wow. Ok. I plan at some point to bring in the guy who has been calibrating my projector (he's competent! has the right gear etc). I suppose he would have access to the JVC autocal stuff (it's just software you download to a laptop and use with a light meter, right? I remember it only worked with one meter at one point -spyder? - but now it works with other meters?)

Then I'd point him towards your recommended settings.

If the autocal is so fast, maybe it won't be a terribly expensive day for me.
I certainly would not be paying a guy to use Autocal who has never used the software before. With a little reading yourself, you can get just as good results with Autocal as the next guy. You will end up paying your calibrated to tinker with software he is unfamiliar with.

Find somebody who has used it extensively would be my recommendation, that way you will get fast results.
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post #20928 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 05:58 PM
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Guys, I bought a JVC RS500 and it will arrive tomorrow. I am upgrading from a Mitsubishi HC4000 DLP, should be a huge upgrade. I also upgraded my AV receiver to be compatible with UHD. I will be using a Samsung UDB 8500 blu ray player as well. I know that when the Samsung player was first released there were many issues with getting the menus to display, etc. My question is, has all of those issues been resolved with firmware updates? Btw, I also upgraded my HDMI cables to certified premium.

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post #20929 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:28 PM
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how very interesting jav ! thanks for pointing out. freaked me out for a second. and really strange wow ! i couldnt understand it either. and how it although it shows doesnt really kick in unless real HDR material is fed ! good to know nothing wierd am doing and known behaviour
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post #20930 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:30 PM
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My lamp fluctuates a lot it seems...?

I obtained a very nice grayscale after an autocal then using only a red gain of -2 and a green gain of -6. My average deltaE was below 1.

Then, after a few days, I noticed a red push while watching a movie and measured the grayscale shown in pic1 (way too much red). I did not change anything in the settings in between...

So, I corrected the grayscale, I had to reduce the red gain from -2 to -14 and the green gain from -6 to -12...and I got a nice grayscale again (pic2).

After correcting the grayscale as described above, everything looked right until tonight: I noticed this time a green push in my projected image while watching Oblivion...I checked the grayscale again and got the result in pic3 below. Red was now too low and deltaE was above 3.

I adjusted the gains again, and ended up increasing red gain from -14 to -10 and this corrected the grayscale once more (pic4) to a deltaE of around 1. Strangely this time, peak brightness for 100% white was the higher than I had ever seen before for the very same settings, going from 17 to almost 19 footlamberts. (same zoom, lamp mode and iris mode, same everything).

So, without changing anything else in my JVCs settings, I went from a red gain of -2 to a red gain of -14 and then to a red gain of -10 in order to have an acceptable grayscale...within an interval of a few days.

My only guess is that I must have a bad lamp (430 hours, low lamp only). It seems to fluctuate in its brightness and color balance quite rapidly. This is frustrating as this is easily visible while watching real life content and it makes a proper calibration impossible. Oh, and every observation was made after more then one hour with the PJ on in low lamp. Every time.

Does my assumption make any sense? anything else could be causing that? I do not mind buying a new lamp, but I would hate paying for a new lamp if the lamp is not the problem...

Do bad lamps behave like that?
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post #20931 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2 View Post
The more I read, the more I get confused about the best way to setup contrast and brightness in my own setup...(and the more I read, the more I notice I am not alone being confused...)

I guess this is because everyone's setup is different, so I will try to fiddle JVCs and Oppo's settings and will find ouy by myself what works best in my setup...

i guess a better question is: what is the main goal? preserve the black floor, of course. Resolve 17 if possible, of course. Clip up to what? this I am not sure. Does the oppo baseline contrast setting clip at 4000?
Here's my take on the goal of calibrating HDR:
  1. Retain the projector's native black level
  2. Clip the input signal at the appropriate points
  3. Get a good curve in between, which has good shadow detail and good brightness for "MTO" content
1) is easy, it's very objective, 2) is a little more up in the air, black is easy, white is generally a compromise. Ideally we'd have the display read the metadata and clip at whatever the content MaxCLL is, but we don't have that so we have to pick somewhere. Given that content is generally below 1200 nits, that's generally a good compromise. Having test patterns (Masciola's patterns are great) is absolutely crucial to setting your black and white points correctly.

3) is by far the hardest part, as is evidenced by this thread.

Fortunately the techniques and examples Manni has found and provided have made 2 and 3 much easier. These custom gamma curves solve the biggest problems with calibrating HDR on these JVCs, and that's getting good shadow detail, and good brightness without drastically compromising black level. Now it's basically import the profile, fire up some test patterns, and verify the clipping.



OK, I just made that sound way more complicated than I meant to, basically.

Don't bother with Gamma D, use a custom Gamma (unfortunately that means we have to reselect it manually when we start HDR)
Clip at reference black as marked on your test patterns.
For HDR, I'd suggest clipping at 1200 (or 4000 if you're using a 4000 nit custom gamma).


Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Manni, do your settings require the use of JVC's autocal feature, or could they be employed by a competent calibrator with his own tools?
To add to what Manni and JAVs said, you need to use the Autocal software (but not necessarily run an autocal) to manipulate the custom gamma. Other than that you use your normal pattern generator and calibration software to measure the results of the custom gamma as you make it. Essentially instead of doing it with menus in the projector, you have to do it with the software on the PC.
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post #20932 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
2 - I"ll be having Chad to calibrate my projector. The bulb as of now has 1000 hours and with current brightness, I use Iris at -6 in Low. Do you guys think that I should get a new bulb before he comes?
My original bulb was at 1,525 hours and I bought a new bulb and put 100 hours on it before Chad got here. If I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have bought a new bulb as these bulbs hold their brightness very well. I only gained 1 Iris click by installing new bulb. They are also rated at 4,500 hours for low and 3,500 hours for high so I say save your money by not buying a new bulb.

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post #20933 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You're welcome, and glad that one worked for you! You might want to try the 200-1100-4000 I realease today, it should be very similar with a tiny bit more saturation as the target is a bit lower. That's why I settled on a 1100nits target here.
I'm hoping this is a typo, since I thought you had indicated that curves with a lower target will produce more brightness, useful for those of us with large screens and/or low gain, but the cost is reduced saturation.

From your first post in the JVC Autocal thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If you want to try one of my curves, pay attention to the target rather than the actual peak white. A lower target will give a brighter curve overall, so if you have a large screen or low gain, select a 1000nits target rather than a 1200nits or 1100nits target. For my setup, 1100nits is the best compromise. It's bright enough, and it doesn't lose too much saturation.
1000nits curves are brighter if you need them, but they are less saturated.
This stuff is new, and therefore somewhat confusing initially, to most of us, and I want to make sure I've fully understood what you've explained.

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post #20934 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
@Manni01 and all...

1. Is there a consensus on whether the 520/620 offers materially better PQ over the 500/600, for HDR or otherwise? I know its hard to ask if its "worth" upgrading to for those of us that bought the 500/600 late last year, since that's a subjective question. But that said, is it worth it?

2. I've seen some posts about HDR calibration recently - I'm a techie but some of this looks like it requires quite a learning curve to calibrate HDR (beyond just using the JVC autocal) ...?

3. Now that the line has been refreshed, is there a feel for whether the 520/620 will be updated again at CEDIA 2017 or is the 520/620 update likely the last until 2018?

Thanks!
Regardless of whether one has a x00 or x20, the owner should learn and use the Autocal feature with a Spyder 5 meter. Once you've calibrated your JVC, you'll already have installed and become familiar with their Projector Calibration Software. Plenty of posts on how to calibrate the JVCs. There's actually very little leaning curve needed to improve HDR using one of Manni's curves. The steps have all been outlined in recent posts and the first post of his JVC Calibration thread. It's actually a piece of cake. You'll also need to spend the $25 and download Ray M's HDR calibration test clips. Much better than eye-balling things and well worth the money spent considering the rest of your investment. Where it gets complicated is if you also want to create your own curve using another calibration product like Calman, Chromapure, or HDFR. Even though Manni has a smaller screen and therefore more nits, I find that his 140-1100-4000 v2 works great. If someone comes along with a xxx-800-4000 curve, I'll give that a try. In the meantime, that curve works great for my larger screen provided I've dialed in the BR/CR using the test clips.

I can't address 1. or 3., but after Manni's work providing such fantastic improvement over GammaD, I could care less about an upgrade to a x20 model. I'd like a fixed GammaD in the JVC or StripMetadata function in the Oppo, but right now as neither of these are necessary. I simply watch my UHDs in HDR with a custom curve and am very satisfied with the PQ now.

The only things I'd want from JVC now is a functional DI in HDR and a way to select the Gamma of my choice with HDR rather then their GammaD default.
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post #20935 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 07:01 PM
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I just had a radical thought, that I want to write down while I'm thinking of it.

Can an Integral strip the HDR metadata from an HDR signal? And I mean that in the correct sense (not the Oppo sense ) of removing the AVI info frame that specifies HDR, such that an HDR signal would be sent to the projector, but the projector wouldn't be forced into "HDR mode"?

If so, we could use our custom gamma, wouldn't have to reselect it ever time something changes, and the DI wouldn't be disabled!

Does that sound plausible?
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post #20936 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2 View Post
The more I read, the more I get confused about the best way to setup contrast and brightness in my own setup...(and the more I read, the more I notice I am not alone being confused...)

I guess this is because everyone's setup is different, so I will try to fiddle JVCs and Oppo's settings and will find ouy by myself what works best in my setup...

i guess a better question is: what is the main goal? preserve the black floor, of course. Resolve 17 if possible, of course. Clip up to what? this I am not sure. Does the oppo baseline contrast setting clip at 4000?
If you're resolving to 17, you're not using Ray M's test clips for HDR. You're going to need to cough up the $25 for them in order to dial in BR and CR in HDR using one of Manni's curves that's best for your setup.
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post #20937 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 07:07 PM
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Manni01,
Let me echo what many have already said. A thousand thank yous! The picture on my new RS500 is just stunning in HDR now. When I first put on gamma D I was shocked...not in a good way obviously. Disappointing JVC thought that was somehow good enough when clearly there was much more this magnificent projector could produce. Now if Oppo can just get pass through to work with HDR for the Roku...and I can solve the instability issues with syncing the Roku in pass through. That's been a nightmare.
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post #20938 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have made three new curves as I've now settled on high lamp. I keep 1100nits as a target as that's the best compromise for me in my setup. The fact that these curves have been made in high doesn't mean they have to be used at the same brightness level. They scale fairly well. Otherwise, feel free to use the last 140-1100-4000V2, it should be very similar. If these curves are too dim, try one of the 1000nits ones. If these are too dim, try 200-400-4000 or the ST2390 one (see below). Ideally, you want a curve made for your setup.

I have stopped switching between curves, I find it completely unnecessary given how well a universal curve with a minor roll-off works for a variety of content.

I also found that using a curve that clips at 1000/1100 leads to excessive highlights and unnatural contrast, so I've tried a different method (explained below). I've provided that curve even if I don't plan to use it.

Thanks to Rak306 who kindly provided the targets as Calman doesn't support this standard yet, I've tried an experimental ST2390 curve (future standard to handle HDR10 playback for consumer taking into account the actual peak brightness of the display). I didn't like it (I wasn't expecting to, but I didn't want to leave that stone unturned as I could have been wrong). I won't use it but some might find it useful in their setup. By the way, I had to use no multiplier for this one because Rak306 provided the absolute targets for my peakY. So in the chart below, only look at the data for Y and Target Y, don't pay attention to the graphs or the dE for that curve, they are not meaningful. I also attach a screenshot of my latest 200-1100-4000 for reference so you can see the differences between the ST2084 curve using the multiplier and the ST2390 curve. My actual PeakY had dropped a bit to 196nits but that won't make a significant difference in the result.

This marks the end of my research cycle. Until there is some progress one way or the other, I'll be happy with my latest 200-1100-4000 as a universal curve to play all my titles, irrespective of the way each disc is mastered.

Here is the detail (I don't put the links there in case I have to update them, they will be in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread here as usual https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...0-rs600.html):

[EDIT 02-15-17: I now use brightness and contrast both set to zero in the JVC and brightness=+6 and contrast =-1 in the Panny].

02-15-17: 200-1100-4000. As I've decided to use High Lamp, I've made this curve which doesn't bring anything major. It's just the latest I've done for my setup, so feel free to try it.

02-15-17: 200-1100-1100. Here is the same curve, with a sharper roll-off. I've slightly changed my method as I found that clipping hard at 80% leads to unnatural extreme highlights. This method should provide the same results, but it will resolve a bit higher, without clipping that hard.

02-15-17: 200-ST2390-4000. This is an attempt at creating an ST2390 curve (many thanks to Rak306 for providing the targets for this curve as it's not supported in Calman yet). I don't like the results, way too bright and undersaturated in my setup, but others might like it, especially those with some ambient light (it comes out of black much faster) and some with very large screens / low gain screens. It's an alternative to the 200-400-4000 for those in that situation.

Enjoy and good luck in creating your own curves!

Well... I'll tell ya what buddy... Great work... your 1000-4000 gamma looks excellent! on my gear (WOWeee)! Cannot believe what a difference it makes already let alone if you say these new ones might look even better on a larger unity gain... thank you (again!), my friend!

I targeted for exactly 1000 nits on the Oppo (+7/+5 & JVC 0/0) and even used the HDR color clipping pattern to bring red & green up to ~1000 nits (surprised the 6500K red gain ended up at -12 & green @ -8 and the Oppo saturation at -2 but looks really good so far (still playing tho).

Now if we can just get those iRule IP strings for custom gamma to work we'd be in great shape to quickly switch gamma profiles (but I tested and its a JVC thing; not that the command strings are bad)!

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post #20939 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 07:50 PM
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So lets say I want to dabble with creating a custom gamma. I would need a Spyder5 - easy enough. What is the best way (i.e. cheapest way) to get Calman and another color meter as that sounds like the best way to embark on this endeavor? Beyond the Spyder5 what is recommended? I have zero background in this beyond an enthusiast but it sounds like it could be a good way to waste hours upon hours of my time

Thanks
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post #20940 of 31897 Old 02-15-2017, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
...

02-15-17: 200-ST2390-4000. This is an attempt at creating an ST2390 curve (many thanks to Rak306 for providing the targets for this curve as it's not supported in Calman yet). I don't like the results, way too bright and undersaturated in my setup, but others might like it, especially those with some ambient light (it comes out of black much faster) and some with very large screens / low gain screens. It's an alternative to the 200-400-4000 for those in that situation.

Enjoy and good luck in creating your own curves!
thank you so much for your efforts, Manni. Upon reading BT2390, it says the following regarding fixing the under-saturation when applying the EETF (ST2390 curve for limited luminance displays). I don't know if Rak309 can shed some light on it for us? Obviously we only applied half the standard and hence the issue with saturation.

----- Quote

The resulting EETF curve can be applied to either the intensity I channel of ICTCP or the luma Y
channel of Y’C’BC’R. Here are the notable options:

1) I of ICTCP – process the intensity (I) channel of ICTCP though the EETF
𝐼2 = 𝐸𝐸𝑇𝐹(𝐼1)
– More accurately adjusts grayscale
– No colour shifts
– Changes in saturation will be needed and should be applied to the CT and CP channels
using this equation:
𝐶𝑇2, 𝐶𝑃2 = 𝑚𝑖𝑛 (𝐼1𝐼2,𝐼2𝐼1) × (𝐶𝑇1, 𝐶𝑃1)

2) Y’ of Y’C’BC’R – run the luma Y’ channel of Y’C’BC’R though the EETF
𝑌′2 = 𝐸𝐸𝑇𝐹(𝑌′1)
– More accurately adjusts grayscale.
– Limited colour shifts.
– Changes in saturation will be needed and should be applied to the C’B and C’R channels
using this equation:
𝐶′𝐵2, 𝐶′𝑅2 = 𝑚𝑖𝑛 (𝑌′1 / 𝑌′2,𝑌′2 / 𝑌′1) × (𝐶′𝐵1, 𝐶′𝑅1)

----- end of quote
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