Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 699 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20941 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollon1980 View Post
thank you so much for your efforts, Manni. Upon reading BT2390, it says the following regarding fixing the under-saturation when applying the EETF (ST2390 curve for limited luminance displays). I don't know if Rak309 can shed some light on it for us? Obviously we only applied half the standard and hence the issue with saturation.

----- Quote

The resulting EETF curve can be applied to either the intensity I channel of ICTCP or the luma Y
channel of Y’C’BC’R. Here are the notable options:

1) I of ICTCP – process the intensity (I) channel of ICTCP though the EETF
𝐼2 = 𝐸𝐸𝑇𝐹(𝐼1)
– More accurately adjusts grayscale
– No colour shifts
– Changes in saturation will be needed and should be applied to the CT and CP channels
using this equation:
𝐶𝑇2, 𝐶𝑃2 = 𝑚𝑖𝑛 (𝐼1𝐼2,𝐼2𝐼1) × (𝐶𝑇1, 𝐶𝑃1)

2) Y’ of Y’C’BC’R – run the luma Y’ channel of Y’C’BC’R though the EETF
𝑌′2 = 𝐸𝐸𝑇𝐹(𝑌′1)
– More accurately adjusts grayscale.
– Limited colour shifts.
– Changes in saturation will be needed and should be applied to the C’B and C’R channels
using this equation:
𝐶′𝐵2, 𝐶′𝑅2 = 𝑚𝑖𝑛 (𝑌′1 / 𝑌′2,𝑌′2 / 𝑌′1) × (𝐶′𝐵1, 𝐶′𝑅1)

----- end of quote

I am a novice with respect to this stuff. I only used the equations from 2390 to create a routine so I could plot the transfer function for my situation. I was trying to get opinions on 2390 from others and manni saw my plot and asked me to do one for his specific case. (I wish I understood this better.)

But, in reading that section, I think that is more about how perceived hue will change when the luminenance changes, rather than saturation.
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post #20942 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Well... I'll tell ya what buddy... Great work... your 1000-4000 gamma looks excellent! on my gear (WOWeee)! Cannot believe what a difference it makes already let alone if you say these new ones might look even better on a larger unity gain... thank you (again!), my friend!

I targeted for exactly 1000 nits on the Oppo (+7/+5 & JVC 0/0)

I believe if you use the 1000-4000 gamma you need to clip to 4000 nits, not 1000.
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post #20943 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 08:49 PM
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No he targeted it for 1,000 (and supports up to 4,000).

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post #20944 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
If you're resolving to 17, you're not using Ray M's test clips for HDR. You're going to need to cough up the $25 for them in order to dial in BR and CR in HDR using one of Manni's curves that's best for your setup.
Which one did you end up importing Steve and what was your Ct/Br results on the Oppo? Just curious since you have an even bigger screen than my 110" AT.

Also for Manni... I just noticed you added another yesterday which slipped by me (would you think this is better than the universal one)? . . .

02-14-17: 140-1100-4000 V2. This is a revised version of the curve above of the same name. It should be marginally brighter and more accururate. This is my default curve now. It works fine in low lamp (140nits here) and high lamp (200nits here).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-4000%20V2.jgd

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post #20945 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You are not clipping anything with these curves and you should not use contrast to clip lower. They are universal. The first number tells you the actual peakY during calibration. The second number tells you the target (the lowest the number, the brighter the curve will look like but the less saturated it will be). The third number tells you where it's clipping.

So if you use a curve ending with 4000, you will never clip any content (provided you check your contrast/brightness settings on the panny with patterns or roughly copy mine).

If you can use the 200-1200-4000, it probably looks a bit less bright but a bit more saturated than the 190-1100-4000 one.

If you do want to clip, use a curve with no roll-off, ending in 1000 or 1100. These will work slightly better with content mastered to 1000-1000 nits, but they will clip highlights on some titles mastered to 4000nits.

If you use only one curve, make sure you use one ending with 4000nits and do not change the clipping point. With the patterns, make sure you also resolve up to 4000nits. You will NOT lose any significant brightness, and the curve will be correct.

If you do use contrast to clip content in a curve ending in 4000nits, your curve is not correct anymore.

I am testing at the moment the 190-1000-4000 one in high lamp and I like it's punch better.

By the way, I checked the gamut (P3 saturations within BT2020) and gamma D is oversaturated. The custom curves are more "correct".
Manni says to make sure you resolve up to 4000 nits with patterns. And if you clip lower the curve is no longer correct. 🤓
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post #20946 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 09:51 PM
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I pushed some scripts that can load custom gamma curves to github. These scripts allow more control points than the autocal software uses.

-https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools
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post #20947 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Which one did you end up importing Steve and what was your Ct/Br results on the Oppo? Just curious since you have an even bigger screen than my 110" AT.

Also for Manni... I just noticed you added another yesterday which slipped by me (would you think this is better than the universal one)? . . .

02-14-17: 140-1100-4000 V2. This is a revised version of the curve above of the same name. It should be marginally brighter and more accurate. This is my default curve now. It works fine in low lamp (140nits here) and high lamp (200nits here).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-4000%20V2.jgd
Kevin, I'm using the V2 after trying a few others in High Lamp, IRIS -5. Since I have more than one HDR source and also find it much easier to dial in the settings in the JVC from the patterns on my HTPC, I set them in the JVC and not the Oppo. With that curve, my settings in the JVC are: CR -7, BR +16, Color +7. I also confirmed that the test patterns via USB on the Oppo look identical as from the HTPC with default/0 Picture Adjustment. My screen is bigger, so I'd probably be best served by a custom 125-750-4000 curve, but being lazy and busy enjoying the theater, I can easily live with the V2 curve.

I'd go that one and adjust BR/CR according using the clipping patterns for your setup in the Oppo if all you use it for is HDR and you don't have another HDR source like I do.
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post #20948 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by arve View Post
I pushed some scripts that can load custom gamma curves to github. These scripts allow more control points than the autocal software uses.

-https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools
I'm confused as I thought the Import function for gamma in the JVC is expecting 11 points of R,G,B. How are you importing something else into a Custom gamma?
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post #20949 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Ric,

I have no idea if the new models are significantly improved or not, but I know that they are not improved enough for you to be able to benefit from HDR in your setup. You need to have at least 100nits peak white available to start making a positive difference from SDR-BT2020. You could try one of my new curves (either the 200-400-4000 or the new ST2390 I'm going to post later), but I recommend you compare the picture with SDR BT2020 (targeting 100nits or as much as you can, not 50nits) with the SDR slider set to -6 in the Panny and contrast set to -1 before making a decision.
1. With my 140" wide, 2.37 AR 0.95 gain screen - when I am zoomed to fill the screen when watching a 2.40 4K movie with the WCG filter in place and iris fully open on high lamp from around mid to mid-long throw I get 13 ftL, if I recall. That works out to around 45 ftL, I think. Do I recall correctly that nits = ftL? So when you say I need 100 nits minimum to get benefit from HDR, you are saying that I need 100 ftL? If that's the case, then I need a little more than double the current max lumens I can get out of my unit? Heck, I don't think even the new JVC laser gets me there, or if it does, then just barely?

2. As we've discussed, with some titles HDR does look nicer, even with my lumens issue. With that in mind, are you saying that I might prefer your new custom gamma over gamma D? If so I'll give it a try. Once you import a custom gamma, is it only active once you set the correction value to Imported? IOW, if I want the JVC to ignore the custom imported value (such as if I don't like the result), I just take it out of Imported for the correction value and then its like it doesn't exist?

3. Currently for HDR I use gamma D, with contrast at +12 and picture tone set accordingly (can't recall OTTOMH). Leave the brightness at 0 and set the panny settings as described where you posted the gamma import data?

Thanks!
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post #20950 of 31899 Old 02-15-2017, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I'm confused as I thought the Import function for gamma in the JVC is expecting 11 points of R,G,B. How are you importing something else into a Custom gamma?
If you look at the gamma table format in the "RS-232 Command Specification for DLA-RS400/RS500/RS600" document, it shows that the table that is sent to the projector has 256 adjustment points.
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post #20951 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
. . . Do I recall correctly that nits = ftL? So when you say I need 100 nits minimum to get benefit from HDR, you are saying that I need 100 ftL?
1 FtL = 3.43 nits

1 nit = 0.29 FtL

so 100 nits minimum = 29 FtL peak white
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post #20952 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 01:03 AM
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@Manni01 I just thought I'd take the time to say a big thank you for all your efforts in coming up with these new curves, they really have turned the corner for HDR viewing on these projectors.

I ran an autocal last night and imported your 140-1100-4000 V2 curve and it is excellent, a massive step up over gamma D. On/off CR in my set-up went up from 23k:1 to 55k:1 versus standard gamma D settings.

If it matters in terms of a data point, I have a 110" wide (120" diagonal) 2.35 HP 2.4 screen. I'm getting around 55FtL (188 nits) in high lamp iris open with the filter engaged.

My next step is to try and follow your pointers and use Calman to create a custom curve, as I'd just like to increase brightness in the mid-tones slightly over your V2 curve, it just looks a smidge too dark in my set-up, probably because I'm not quiet up to the 200 nits you can achieve.

One question I had though (and apologies if I have missed this, this thread has been moving fast in the last few days); once you have created your custom gamma curve in Calman by applying the screen offset. Are you able to push on with Calman and use that gamma curve to complete a Calman Autocal greyscale calibration and/or create a 3D LUT? I appreciate you may not have physically done this, as you may not have 4K HDR content on your HTPC, but I just wondered if this was possible?

If it is, it will enable me to complete a 3D LUT for my Radiance Pro. The final step for me will then be see if I can get the Radiance to output the signal with the HDR flag removed so that it stops the PJ switching to gamma D, and more importantly allows me to engage the DI on HDR content.
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post #20953 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 01:24 AM
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Manni, first, I would like to congratulate you about your great work making gamma curves that permit viewing HDR contents almost directly without any modifying. I've was being testing it and I've viewed they are great. Much better than others based in gamma D that I tried before. Anyway I would like to build my own specific gamma. The most difficult for me is not the calibration process using Autocal. The most difficult is,before to start a calibration, to generate a reference gamma to compare with. I would appreciate if, when you feel yourself no so tired and you have time enough, you explain us the detailed steps to build a reference gamma. That is, how to introduce parameters as are the target and content clipping, roll-off value ... . I am not sure the specific steps with Calman (I think it is the software you are currently using) although, really, I would prefer another tool because Calman license is too expensive for me. The software that I would prefer to use is Chromapure or much better HCFR.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Spain
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post #20954 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I'm hoping this is a typo, since I thought you had indicated that curves with a lower target will produce more brightness, useful for those of us with large screens and/or low gain, but the cost is reduced saturation.

From your first post in the JVC Autocal thread:



This stuff is new, and therefore somewhat confusing initially, to most of us, and I want to make sure I've fully understood what you've explained.


It is a typo, thanks for spotting it, I am getting tired and it was late at night


Asharma mentioned a 200-1200-4000, and he should be getting a bit more saturation than with the new 2000-1100-4000. I though in my tired head that he was using a 1000 curve. I'll correct my reply to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I just had a radical thought, that I want to write down while I'm thinking of it.

Can an Integral strip the HDR metadata from an HDR signal? And I mean that in the correct sense (not the Oppo sense ) of removing the AVI info frame that specifies HDR, such that an HDR signal would be sent to the projector, but the projector wouldn't be forced into "HDR mode"?

If so, we could use our custom gamma, wouldn't have to reselect it ever time something changes, and the DI wouldn't be disabled!

Does that sound plausible?


I had the same radical thought, as it would be exciting indeed, but the problem is that the fury does nothing, it only tells the player that the projector can't do HDR, which forces the player to send SDR. this is how we get the SDR BT2020 from the Panny, forcing the palyer to send SDR BT2020 without downconverting to rec-709, which it does by default if you switch HDR off in the player.


So as long as the HD Fury sends the HDR flag off, there is no way to get the player to send HDR.


However, I was thinking of asking Ken if they could do something for us, so that the HD Fury would report HDR to the player but would not report HDR upstream. That would solve our problem.


This would be the opposite of the SDR BT2020 trick:


Instead of reporting SDR to the player and HDR to the PJ, we want to report HDR to the player and SDR to the PJ. It should be possible. I'll report back when I've been able to have a chat with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Well... I'll tell ya what buddy... Great work... your 1000-4000 gamma looks excellent! on my gear (WOWeee)! Cannot believe what a difference it makes already let alone if you say these new ones might look even better on a larger unity gain... thank you (again!), my friend!

I targeted for exactly 1000 nits on the Oppo (+7/+5 & JVC 0/0) and even used the HDR color clipping pattern to bring red & green up to ~1000 nits (surprised the 6500K red gain ended up at -12 & green @ -8 and the Oppo saturation at -2 but looks really good so far (still playing tho).

Now if we can just get those iRule IP strings for custom gamma to work we'd be in great shape to quickly switch gamma profiles (but I tested and its a JVC thing; not that the command strings are bad)!



Glad it works for you, but the others are correct, if you get a 4000 curve with a roll-off, there is no need to adjust the clipping point to 1000nits with the contrast setting, you are destroying the curve doing this.


The whole point of the 4000nits curve (with a roll off) is that they resolve up to 4000nits without a penalty in brightness for the overall picture. That's why I call them universal curves: you use one curve for all titles and you resolve up to 4000nits when necessary.


If you really want to clip lower, which I don't recommend anymore, use a curve that ends in 1000 or 1100, but you have to change curve everytime you play a title mastered above that, which is a real hassle for little to no benefit (and some artifacts).


My advice today is to use a 4000 curve and use only that one. when setting contrast, always set contrast to the last number in the curve name, otherwise you are going against the intent of the curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckgolf View Post
I believe if you use the 1000-4000 gamma you need to clip to 4000 nits, not 1000.


Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Which one did you end up importing Steve and what was your Ct/Br results on the Oppo? Just curious since you have an even bigger screen than my 110" AT.

Also for Manni... I just noticed you added another yesterday which slipped by me (would you think this is better than the universal one)? . . .

02-14-17: 140-1100-4000 V2. This is a revised version of the curve above of the same name. It should be marginally brighter and more accururate. This is my default curve now. It works fine in low lamp (140nits here) and high lamp (200nits here).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...-4000%20V2.jgd


I have posted three more since that one, you're behind


To clarify again, all curves ending with 4000 are universal curves. They are the only curves I recommend using, and you should set contrast to resolve up to 4000nits or slightly below. Unless you are far from that, I would not adjust contrast. I would NEVER adjust contrast to clip lower than that. These curves should need almost no adjustments in contrast on well configured, good players like the Panny. I have contrast at zero on the PJ and at -1 on the Panny for these curves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
I pushed some scripts that can load custom gamma curves to github. These scripts allow more control points than the autocal software uses.

-https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools


Sounds great but the link doesn't work for me... Also, as someone else asked, how do you re-import the curve into the JVC? The internal tables have more control point (the JVC Autocal use up to 33) but the custom gamma files are formatted for 11 control points. Can your tool re-import the optimised files back into the PJ without using the JVC Autocal software to import the text file back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
1. With my 140" wide, 2.37 AR 0.95 gain screen - when I am zoomed to fill the screen when watching a 2.40 4K movie with the WCG filter in place and iris fully open on high lamp from around mid to mid-long throw I get 13 ftL, if I recall. That works out to around 45 ftL, I think. Do I recall correctly that nits = ftL? So when you say I need 100 nits minimum to get benefit from HDR, you are saying that I need 100 ftL? If that's the case, then I need a little more than double the current max lumens I can get out of my unit? Heck, I don't think even the new JVC laser gets me there, or if it does, then just barely?

2. As we've discussed, with some titles HDR does look nicer, even with my lumens issue. With that in mind, are you saying that I might prefer your new custom gamma over gamma D? If so I'll give it a try. Once you import a custom gamma, is it only active once you set the correction value to Imported? IOW, if I want the JVC to ignore the custom imported value (such as if I don't like the result), I just take it out of Imported for the correction value and then its like it doesn't exist?

3. Currently for HDR I use gamma D, with contrast at +12 and picture tone set accordingly (can't recall OTTOMH). Leave the brightness at 0 and set the panny settings as described where you posted the gamma import data?

Thanks!


The custom gamma curve should give better results, but you have less than 50nits available (that's 50cd/m2, around 14fL). There is NO POINT for you to use HDR. You are compressing everything and you would lose dynamic range and contrast playing HDR content in SDR on such a brightness deprived setup. You need at least 100nits (twice as much) to get some kind of benefit from HDR. Below that, use SDR BTR2020, get your DI back and be VERY happy. You're not missing out on anything


You need to read all the posts linked in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread on the subject, I really don't have the time to do more support on this, sorry. I'm sure others will help, all the usuals have caught up and are doing a brilliant work taking over (thanks to them by the way!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I'm confused as I thought the Import function for gamma in the JVC is expecting 11 points of R,G,B. How are you importing something else into a Custom gamma?

I have the same question. Their tools would have to deal with the import. The PJ supports more than 11 points but the import function expects files formatted with 11 control points, so I don't see how this could work unless the tools communicates directly with the PJ and loads the improved tables.


Frankly, I don't think we really need more than 11 control points, at least when working on gamma white exclusively, which is what I recommend to do for these curves, after having run an autocal and setting 100% white to D65 so that the RGB balance is already taken care of for the most part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
@Manni01 I just thought I'd take the time to say a big thank you for all your efforts in coming up with these new curves, they really have turned the corner for HDR viewing on these projectors.

I ran an autocal last night and imported your 140-1100-4000 V2 curve and it is excellent, a massive step up over gamma D. On/off CR in my set-up went up from 23k:1 to 55k:1 versus standard gamma D settings.

If it matters in terms of a data point, I have a 110" wide (120" diagonal) 2.35 HP 2.4 screen. I'm getting around 55FtL (188 nits) in high lamp iris open with the filter engaged.

My next step is to try and follow your pointers and use Calman to create a custom curve, as I'd just like to increase brightness in the mid-tones slightly over your V2 curve, it just looks a smidge too dark in my set-up, probably because I'm not quiet up to the 200 nits you can achieve.

One question I had though (and apologies if I have missed this, this thread has been moving fast in the last few days); once you have created your custom gamma curve in Calman by applying the screen offset. Are you able to push on with Calman and use that gamma curve to complete a Calman Autocal greyscale calibration and/or create a 3D LUT? I appreciate you may not have physically done this, as you may not have 4K HDR content on your HTPC, but I just wondered if this was possible?

If it is, it will enable me to complete a 3D LUT for my Radiance Pro. The final step for me will then be see if I can get the Radiance to output the signal with the HDR flag removed so that it stops the PJ switching to gamma D, and more importantly allows me to engage the DI on HDR content.


Glad it works for you too .


As far as I know, Calman doesn't support the new JVCs for greyscale autocal, but it's not necessary, the JVC Autocal does a much better job at that with a reasonably accurate Spyder. Calman doesn't support the shaping LUT of the Radiance Pro yet, you would have to check with Jim and the Spectracal team. I don't think it can yet, but I'm not following this closely. Yes the main advantage at this stage for us would be to be able to re-enable the DI. We're working on this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD_666 View Post
Manni, first, I would like to congratulate you about your great work making gamma curves that permit viewing HDR contents almost directly without any modifying. I've was being testing it and I've viewed they are great. Much better than others based in gamma D that I tried before. Anyway I would like to build my own specific gamma. The most difficult for me is not the calibration process using Autocal. The most difficult is,before to start a calibration, to generate a reference gamma to compare with. I would appreciate if, when you feel yourself no so tired and you have time enough, you explain us the detailed steps to build a reference gamma. That is, how to introduce parameters as are the target and content clipping, roll-off value ... . I am not sure the specific steps with Calman (I think it is the software you are currently using) although, really, I would prefer another tool because Calman license is too expensive for me. The software that I would prefer to use is Chromapure or much better HCFR.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Spain


You're welcome, I'm glad this works for you too.


I have explained all this in a post recently. This post is linked in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread. Please read all of the HDR/Gamma section in that post, and all the posts it links to. I can't provide support on this, but many others in this thread will do.


Good luck!
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post #20955 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Glad it works for you too .


As far as I know, Calman doesn't support the new JVCs for greyscale autocal, but it's not necessary, the JVC Autocal does a much better job at that with a reasonably accurate Spyder. Calman doesn't support the shaping LUT of the Radiance Pro yet, you would have to check with Jim and the Spectracal team. I don't think it can yet, but I'm not following this closely. Yes the main advantage at this stage for us would be to be able to re-enable the DI. We're working on this...
Thanks Manni, just to clarify, I was talking about the Calman greyscale autocal within the Radiance Pro, not the JVC. I was just thinking if you had got this to work with MadVR, I might be able to get it to work with the Lumagen. As you say, the JVC autocal probably gets this close enough, but I get a bit OCD with these things and like to get the Radiance and Calman to tune things to perfection.

On the shaping LUT, Lumagen don't have this implemented as yet. My hope was, as an interim measure, if we had a valid gamma curve in Calman to calibrate to (given that the custom curve is created there) could we not apply that in running a Rec2020 3D LUT - or are the screen offsets not used during LUT creation? I was thinking we wouldn't need the Lumagen shaping LUT for this. I will run it tonight with a Lightening LUT anyway, once i have created a customer gamma curve, and see how it goes.

On getting the DI working, I think the Radiance Pro can already remove the HDR flags from a HDR input, so I'm hoping to be able to get the DI working on HDR content tonight also.
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post #20956 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 03:10 AM
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Selection of custom gamma and enabling the DI in HDR

I can't make any promise but I've emailed Ken from HD Fury and I've explained to him what we needed to be able to select our gamma curve automatically and have the option to re-enable the DI when playing HDR content. Of course I'll help them to beta test if they can provide a "custom JVC mode" as I've requested. So watch this space!

As explained above in my reply to Stranger, what we need from HD Fury is the opposite of the SDR BT2020 trick. Instead of tricking the player into thinking we don't have HDR but only WCG so we can send SDR BT2020 to the PJ which stays in SDR mode (which is why we can enable the DI in SDR BT2020), we need to tell the player that we have HDR so the player sends the full HDR as normal, but tricking the JVC into thinking that we don't have HDR, so it doesn't switch to gamma D and doesn't disable the DI.

I should hear back from him soon and I'll keep you posted as we make progress.

Edit: I'm talking to Ken about this right now and will update when/if we get a good result from experimentation. In any case, we should be able to get a strip metadata only feature in the Integral and the Linker to achieve this, I'll give more info when/if we get it to work. Anyone who read the part of the post about JVC, please hold off until we know if we can get good results with the Integral stripping the metadata first.
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post #20957 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks Manni, just to clarify, I was talking about the Calman greyscale autocal within the Radiance Pro, not the JVC. I was just thinking if you had got this to work with MadVR, I might be able to get it to work with the Lumagen. As you say, the JVC autocal probably gets this close enough, but I get a bit OCD with these things and like to get the Radiance and Calman to tune things to perfection.

On the shaping LUT, Lumagen don't have this implemented as yet. My hope was, as an interim measure, if we had a valid gamma curve in Calman to calibrate to (given that the custom curve is created there) could we not apply that in running a Rec2020 3D LUT - or are the screen offsets not used during LUT creation? I was thinking we wouldn't need the Lumagen shaping LUT for this. I will run it tonight with a Lightening LUT anyway, once i have created a customer gamma curve, and see how it goes.

On getting the DI working, I think the Radiance Pro can already remove the HDR flags from a HDR input, so I'm hoping to be able to get the DI working on HDR content tonight also.
I wouldn't try creating a 3D LUT before both the software and the Radiance Pro handle it. As per Jim's latest post, they are late with the shaping LUT due to the issue with the new 18gbs cards.

I haven't tried with MadVR as I don't have any UHD content to play on the HTPC, so the HTPC is exclusively used for SD/HD content. I don't even have a GPU that handles HDR as I'm waiting for Vega 10.

Personally I don't see anything in the picture wrong enough in HDR with a custom curve to make me wish that I had a 3D LUT on top of that. I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, but it's accurate enough for me to watch it without being annoyed by anything.

But feel free to try and report your findings!

When the Radiance Pro works with shaping LUTs (I think Jim calls it intensity mapping now), then it will make a big difference because it will convert HDR into SDR properly, using the full dynamic range of the projector, giving us options regarding brightness, clipping point and roll-off, and we'll be able to enable the DI because it will be converted to SDR and whichever power gamma we want to use. So enabling the DI that way shouldn't have the downsides of enabling it with HDR content played as HDR, which would be what we'd be doing if we manage to disable the automatic HDR detection in the projector, either with an Integral or with a f/w upgrade from JVC.

I expect you'll get spectacular results with a Radiance Pro that way!
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post #20958 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
...


I have explained all this in a post recently. This post is linked in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread. Please read all of the HDR/Gamma section in that post, and all the posts it links to. I can't provide support on this, but many others in this thread will do.


Good luck!
Thanks for your answer. I 've bean reading the link you have redirecting me and, imho, in relation to the process of building a reference gamma, it speaks about what to do but not, how to do. There are some aspects I don't know how to solve. I know how to set the content clipping (1000 -4000 nits), I know how to set the multiplier, but I don´t know in Calman or wherever, how and where to set the roll-off point. Some helping would be welcome. Anyway I will continue investigating.

Thanks a lot
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Adjusting the roll-off

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Originally Posted by LTD_666 View Post
Thanks for your answer. I 've bean reading the link you have redirecting me and, imho, in relation to the process of building a reference gamma, it speaks about what to do but not, how to do. There are some aspects I don't know how to solve. I know how to set the content clipping (1000 -4000 nits), I know how to set the multiplier, but I don´t know in Calman or wherever, how and where to set the roll-point. Some helping would be welcome. Anyway I will continue investigating.

Thanks a lot
You set the roll-off by deviating form the target in the last control points.

For example, instead of going up to the target at 80% (which would clip content at 1200nits), you lower the 80% point to roll-off the curve.

You use calman to monitor the changes, but you change the value using the JVC Autocal software at the 80% point.

What I do is I create my curve with an approximate roll-off that "looks" correct (ie not too steep and not too soft), then play back white clipping pattern from the Masciola disc and instead of reading with the meter, I adjust the 80% while playing the pattern to resolve up to 4000nits. Then I save the curve and it can be imported.

To make the same curve without the roll-off, I used to simply bring 80% to the max (1023) to clip at 1200nits, but I've stopped doing this as it caused some artifacts. Instead I raise the 80% point to make a steeper roll-off, but I don't clip, so the curve probably resolves slightly above 1200nits. That's the way I designed the latest 200-1100-1100 curve, which will improve slightly the contrast on titles mastered to a max of 1100nits but will clip content for 4000nits titles.

Hope this will be enough, otherwise sorry but I can't explain further, you'll have to experiment, it's not difficult to understand once you start playing with this.
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post #20960 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You set the roll-off by deviating form the target in the last control points.

For example, instead of going up to the target at 80% (which would clip content at 1200nits), you lower the 80% point to roll-off the curve.

You use calman to monitor the changes, but you change the value using the JVC Autocal software at the 80% point.

What I do is I create my curve with an approximate roll-off that "looks" correct (ie not too steep and not too soft), then play back white clipping pattern from the Masciola disc and instead of reading with the meter, I adjust the 80% while playing the pattern to resolve up to 4000nits. Then I save the curve and it can be imported.

To make the same curve without the roll-off, I used to simply bring 80% to the max (1023) to clip at 1200nits, but I've stopped doing this as it caused some artifacts. Instead I raise the 80% point to make a steeper roll-off, but I don't clip, so the curve probably resolves slightly above 1200nits. That's the way I designed the latest 200-1100-1100 curve, which will improve slightly the contrast on titles mastered to a max of 1100nits but will clip content for 4000nits titles.

Hope this will be enough, otherwise sorry but I can't explain further, you'll have to experiment, it's not difficult to understand once you start playing with this.
Ok thanks. Now, I think I understand it.
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post #20961 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
So lets say I want to dabble with creating a custom gamma. I would need a Spyder5 - easy enough. What is the best way (i.e. cheapest way) to get Calman and another color meter as that sounds like the best way to embark on this endeavor? Beyond the Spyder5 what is recommended? I have zero background in this beyond an enthusiast but it sounds like it could be a good way to waste hours upon hours of my time

Thanks
Well, the cheapest option is probably to use Colorimeter HCFR (free) and your Spyder 5. Only thing is I'm not sure if there's a way to have a PQ target curve in HCFR. Otherwise, if you're buying Calman and a meter, either get an iDisplay Pro, or Calman's refurb C6 looks like a pretty good deal.

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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
2. As we've discussed, with some titles HDR does look nicer, even with my lumens issue. With that in mind, are you saying that I might prefer your new custom gamma over gamma D? If so I'll give it a try. Once you import a custom gamma, is it only active once you set the correction value to Imported? IOW, if I want the JVC to ignore the custom imported value (such as if I don't like the result), I just take it out of Imported for the correction value and then its like it doesn't exist?
I'd say anything's better than Gamma D. Though you might want to try either the curve I uploaded or one of manni's brighter curves.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I had the same radical thought, as it would be exciting indeed, but the problem is that the fury does nothing, it only tells the player that the projector can't do HDR, which forces the player to send SDR. this is how we get the SDR BT2020 from the Panny, forcing the palyer to send SDR BT2020 without downconverting to rec-709, which it does by default if you switch HDR off in the player.


So as long as the HD Fury sends the HDR flag off, there is no way to get the player to send HDR.


However, I was thinking of asking Ken if they could do something for us, so that the HD Fury would report HDR to the player but would not report HDR upstream. That would solve our problem.
Yup that's exactly what I was thinking. I was hoping the option was already there, but looking at the manual today, it doesn't look like it. I was hoping for something the opposite of the "Always Force HDR" option, which always turns HDR on. We want an option to always force HDR "Off" on the display, regardless of what the player is sending. After all, our JVCs aren't remotely handling that information correctly anyway.

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks Manni, just to clarify, I was talking about the Calman greyscale autocal within the Radiance Pro, not the JVC. I was just thinking if you had got this to work with MadVR, I might be able to get it to work with the Lumagen. As you say, the JVC autocal probably gets this close enough, but I get a bit OCD with these things and like to get the Radiance and Calman to tune things to perfection.
I use my Radiance XE as a pattern generator for this, so that works. Though as Manni says, apparently calman doesn't have the Shaping LUT implemented yet, so I don't think you can really use a Radiance autocal for this.

Quote:
On the shaping LUT, Lumagen don't have this implemented as yet. My hope was, as an interim measure, if we had a valid gamma curve in Calman to calibrate to (given that the custom curve is created there) could we not apply that in running a Rec2020 3D LUT - or are the screen offsets not used during LUT creation? I was thinking we wouldn't need the Lumagen shaping LUT for this. I will run it tonight with a Lightening LUT anyway, once i have created a customer gamma curve, and see how it goes.
We can get a valid curve to use in Calman, the problem is currently Calman defaults to hard clipping at whatever your measured peak white is (you can fake it out by using a screen offset multiplier). So if you follow the Calman curve exactly, you end up hard clipping where you want a gentile roll off. So for now, you need to manually calibrate using the autocal software to follow the Calman curve exactly up to 50-60%, and then roll off from there to 90% or so.

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On getting the DI working, I think the Radiance Pro can already remove the HDR flags from a HDR input, so I'm hoping to be able to get the DI working on HDR content tonight also.
Let us know how that goes. If you strip the HDR information and use one of these custom curves, then the JVC should have the DI enabled while watching HDR content.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I can't make any promise but I've emailed Ken from HD Fury and I've explained to him what we needed to be able to select our gamma curve automatically and have the option to re-enable the DI when playing HDR content. Of course I'll help them to beta test if they can provide a "custom JVC mode" as I've requested. So watch this space!
I'll help them test too if they want another tester. I'm hopeful they'll add it, they seem to be very receptive to reasonable requests, and metadata manipulation is sort of the Integral's forte.

Quote:
Edit: I'm talking to Ken about this right now and will update when/if we get a good result from experimentation. In any case, we should be able to get a strip metadata only feature in the Integral and the Linker to achieve this, I'll give more info when/if we get it to work. Anyone who read the part of the post about JVC, please hold off until we know if we can get good results with the Integral stripping the metadata first.
Awesome, I'd love to try it Hopefully the DI doesn't wig out with the "different" transfer function.

I'm going to laugh if a few random folks on the internet do what we were told was "impossible" or "too hard" for JVC to do (I understand we're not making a once size fits all solution, but still)...
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post #20962 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Let us know how that goes. If you strip the HDR information and use one of these custom curves, then the JVC should have the DI enabled while watching HDR content.

I'll help them test too if they want another tester. I'm hopeful they'll add it, they seem to be very receptive to reasonable requests, and metadata manipulation is sort of the Integral's forte.

Awesome, I'd love to try it Hopefully the DI doesn't wig out with the "different" transfer function.

I'm going to laugh if a few random folks on the internet do what we were told was "impossible" or "too hard" for JVC to do (I understand we're not making a once size fits all solution, but still)...
Remember that there is probably a good reason why they disabled the DI in HDR. I think it's because they assumed we'd use the iris fully open to maximise peakY, and there might be too many DI artifacts in HDR due to the much larger dynamic range. Also, they do a lot of gamma manipulation when the DI is enabled, and while they know how to do this in SDR with a power gamma, they might have issues to implement this with a PQ curve (or an S-curve simulating it).

So while I'm sure excited at the prospect of trying the DI in HDR, I'm also fully prepared to not like it and keep it disabled, as it's clearly been designed for SDR, not HDR.

It will be very different with the Radiance Pro, because we could convert HDR to SDR properly and then use the DI normally, as we would be playing HDR as SDR, but unlike the SDR BT2020 option, we'd be using the full dynamic range as the mapping will be correct and we'd be able to target actual peakY (say 200nits instead of 50-100nits). This will be really special when it happens and I expect it will beat anything else from a PQ point of view, especially if the DI doesn't work so well when playing HDR content once we can try this.

What we would need on the PJ without a Radiance Pro is a special HDR mode which only kicks in action when full black is detected, so we'll get great fade to black without having to do huge shifts of the iris range or manipulate gamma at all.

We would only need in that case an option to select the speed of the fade in/out, to select a compromise between darkness and artifacts (fast gets darker faster but more artifacts, slow does it slower so less artifacts and better on long/slow fades, but might lose some content on fade in.

Whether the DI is usable or not when playing HDR content, this tweak should allow us to keep our custom gamma selected, which would be most welcome.

Regarding progress, Ken is confident we can get a "strip metadata only" option on both the Integral and the Linker.

We've tried a quick and dirty solution but it doesn't seem to work.

I'll update here whenever we make progress, as soon as there is something worth trying. No need for further beta testing until there is something to test

In any case, it's a trivial feature to implement so we should get this quickly even if the devs have to be involved.

HD Fury has, with Lumagen, the best support I've ever experienced in this industry from a any hardware manufacturer, and Ken is a wonderful guy. That's the advantage of being a small, reactiuve company, open to customer feedback

To put the DI in perspective, I watched "Trolls" with my daughters yesterday (great HDR by the way, very colorfull as expected) and watching the end credits in high lamp fully open I was amazed at how black the blacks look as soon as there is something on the picture. Even on a fade out, as long as it's from a reasonably bright picture and not a low APL one, the perceived black is very deep for 1-2 seconds.

So it's really on long fade to black, or on fade to black from a low APL picture, that the black levels become an issue in HDR (now that we can watch an accurate picture without raising the black floor and killing our on/off contrast).

The rest of the time, the highest possible ANSI contrast and the high dynamic range really makes up for the loss of on/off and the raised black levels. I also really enjoy the stability without the DI, and really only miss it (possibly) on fade to black. So a fade-to-black only DI would suit me fine. In fact I'd like to have this option in every model. I would also like an iris that closes fully, so we get REAL black, like with a dimming laser. I really don't understand why they don't close the iris further on long fade to black. It would make such a great effect.

Anyway, I used to go for SDR BT-2020 most of the time, but now with these curves it's the opposite: I go for HDR High lamp for most pictures, and I go for HDR low lamp if I want lower black levels, say with a dark thriller like Bourne or similar. I don't use SDR BT2020 anymore, and I don't really miss it
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post #20963 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 05:46 AM
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Wow, this thread moves fast...

Guys, I would really, really like to know what you think about my apparent lamp problem:

http://https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2222586-official-jvc-rs600-rs500-x950r-x750r-x9000-x7000-owners-thread-698.html#post50795785

I am unable to calibrate anything because of that...any input would be greatly appreciated!
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Well, the cheapest option is probably to use Colorimeter HCFR (free) and your Spyder 5. Only thing is I'm not sure if there's a way to have a PQ target curve in HCFR.
HCFR does support SMPTE ST 2084 EOTF, although I've never tried it. (Not into HDR stuff yet).
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post #20965 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:38 AM
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Remember that there is probably a good reason why they disabled the DI in HDR. I think it's because they assumed we'd use the iris fully open to maximise peakY, and there might be too many DI artifacts in HDR due to the much larger dynamic range. Also, they do a lot of gamma manipulation when the DI is enabled, and while they know how to do this in SDR with a power gamma, they might have issues to implement this with a PQ curve (or an S-curve simulating it).

So while I'm sure excited at the prospect of trying the DI in HDR, I'm also fully prepared to not like it and keep it disabled, as it's clearly been designed for SDR, not HDR.
Yup, like I said, I hope it doesn't wig out.

Quote:
It will be very different with the Radiance Pro, because we could convert HDR to SDR properly and then use the DI normally, as we would be playing HDR as SDR, but unlike the SDR BT2020 option, we'd be using the full dynamic range as the mapping will be correct and we'd be able to target actual peakY (say 200nits instead of 50-100nits). This will be really special when it happens and I expect it will beat anything else from a PQ point of view, especially if the DI doesn't work so well when playing HDR content once we can try this.
I think it comes down to where the DI operates. If the DI looks at the incoming signal, and does it's determination and gamma manipulation there, I think there's a good chance that the DI will be useless with an HDR input.

However, if the DI works after the input signal has been converted to the panel response by the specified gamma curve, then I think it will be fine. After all, on screen (and thus, at the panel) proper HDR and SDR+WCG both have similar overall levels.

So overall, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Quote:
Whether the DI is usable or not when playing HDR content, this tweak should allow us to keep our custom gamma selected, which would be most welcome.
Yup, at least there's that.

Quote:
Regarding progress, Ken is confident we can get a "strip metadata only" option on both the Integral and the Linker.
I kind of figured, it seemed like something right up their alley.

Quote:
HD Fury has, with Lumagen, the best support I've ever experienced in this industry from a any hardware manufacturer, and Ken is a wonderful guy. That's the advantage of being a small, reactiuve company, open to customer feedback
Yeah, I haven't followed the Integral thread in a while, because mine must works, but when I was, they were providing awesome support.

Quote:
The rest of the time, the highest possible ANSI contrast and the high dynamic range really makes up for the loss of on/off and the raised black levels. I also really enjoy the stability without the DI, and really only miss it (possibly) on fade to black. So a fade-to-black only DI would suit me fine. In fact I'd like to have this option in every model. I would also like an iris that closes fully, so we get REAL black, like with a dimming laser. I really don't understand why they don't close the iris further on long fade to black. It would make such a great effect.
You're in a bit better position than me for that though. My last HDR cal was high lamp, iris wide open, vs my normal SDR (709) calibration that's low lamp, iris -10. That's a massive increase in black level, though with a good gamma curve it's not nearly as bad.

Quote:
Anyway, I used to go for SDR BT-2020 most of the time, but now with these curves it's the opposite: I go for HDR High lamp for most pictures, and I go for HDR low lamp if I want lower black levels, say with a dark thriller like Bourne or similar. I don't use SDR BT2020 anymore, and I don't really miss it
They're definitely an improvement
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post #20966 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:41 AM
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I thought when I tried some custom curves I had the iris enabled? Was I mistaken? I will try again tonight and pay closer attention but can someone confirm if the iris is/should be disabled when switching to the custom gamma from the auto HDR mode? EDIT - I have the 520 if that matters.

Thanks

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post #20967 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:45 AM
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Well, the cheapest option is probably to use Colorimeter HCFR (free) and your Spyder 5. Only thing is I'm not sure if there's a way to have a PQ target curve in HCFR. Otherwise, if you're buying Calman and a meter, either get an iDisplay Pro, or Calman's refurb C6 looks like a pretty good deal.
Thanks, I was looking at the refurb - but their web site shows sold out. I may contact them to see if they expect to have more in the future.
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post #20968 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:48 AM
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Which one did you end up importing Steve and what was your Ct/Br results on the Oppo? Just curious since you have an even bigger screen than my 110" AT.
I imported these last night:
Custom1 140-1100-4000V2
Custom2 140-1100-1100
Custom3 140-1000-1000

I am in High Lamp Iris wide open on my 130" wide Seymour XD Screen. I believe real-world gain is around .9 - 1.0

IT WAS PAINFULLY BRIGHT lol

Left JVC BR and CR set to zero and put Color at +4.
In the Oppo, using Masciola patterns, I set brightness to +7 and left CR alone.

I had wifey help me out with the black clipping because I dont trust my eyes. +8 in brightness caused Ref Black to blink.. +6 crushed below 3%.

We then re-watched parts of the Revenant using Custom 3 (max luminence for Revenant is 1000 nits).

The first thing wife says "It looks like it's 3D" ... to which I responded "Is that a good thing or a bad thing???" .. "I don't know yet!" She responded.

I think it took time for both our eyes to adjust, but the opening scene with all the water reflections/highlights and tree trunks shadowed by the rising sun in the background. Boy there was detail in the shadows of the tree trunks that we simply did not see before. The picture looked great.

@Manni01 if you're ever in the Chicagoland area, I'd love to buy you a beer for efforts-- seriously some awesome stuff.

I cant even imagine what the picture will look like once I get a custom calibration for my theater in a couple months.

These Manni gamma curves, though, are certainly going to make the wait for a proper calibration more bearable-- as well as the wait for an Oppo FW that fixes Strip Metadata & DolbyVision.

Cheers!
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JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
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post #20969 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Definitely turn off the DI, it will screw up all your gamma measurements since the reference changes with APL. Full field patterns are fine.

If you do it again without the DI, and still have that wonky gamma, then it's time for an autocal, that will fix your gamma right up
I've done the calibration with DI disabled and not much changed. I then tried to set a custom gama with correction at 2.4 and as expected, the results were in check (attached).
I think this is happeining because CalMan wants to target Gamma 2.4 and the Normal gamma of JVC is close to 2.2. I like the 2.2 Normal gama better because 2.4 looks too dark and crushes dark details. I havent found any setting in CalMan to make it target 2.2 instead of 2.4.
Any advice?
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post #20970 of 31899 Old 02-16-2017, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Yup, like I said, I hope it doesn't wig out.

I think it comes down to where the DI operates. If the DI looks at the incoming signal, and does it's determination and gamma manipulation there, I think there's a good chance that the DI will be useless with an HDR input.

However, if the DI works after the input signal has been converted to the panel response by the specified gamma curve, then I think it will be fine. After all, on screen (and thus, at the panel) proper HDR and SDR+WCG both have similar overall levels.

So overall, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Yup, at least there's that.

I kind of figured, it seemed like something right up their alley.

Yeah, I haven't followed the Integral thread in a while, because mine must works, but when I was, they were providing awesome support.

You're in a bit better position than me for that though. My last HDR cal was high lamp, iris wide open, vs my normal SDR (709) calibration that's low lamp, iris -10. That's a massive increase in black level, though with a good gamma curve it's not nearly as bad.

They're definitely an improvement
Of course the absolute black floor is raised (and it's even more for me, I get 65nits in SDR Rec-709 in low lamp iris -13, and I target 200nits in HDR in high lamp iris fully open).

Believe me, if you stare at a black pattern, the difference is rather obvious (although much less with the custom curves as we're not raising the black floor more than we had to).

I'm talking about perceived on/off and black floor.

In HDR, because the highlights shoot much higher and the overall picture is brighter, the blacks look great as long as there is something in the picture, even if it's not much on a black background, like the end credits of Trolls I mentioned. It's only if the fade out lasts for more than 1-2 seconds, or if it starts from a very low APL picture, that we notice the absolute raised black levels. Also, the increase in ANSI contrast makes up for the loss of on/off contrast when the picture is bright. Overall, I find the HDR picture vastly superior to the SDR picture, despite the raised absolute black floor (not obvious perceptually 90% of the time) and the loss of on/off. It takes some time for our dilated pupils to adapt to black, and until they do even the raised black we get now in HDR will look black, which wasn't the case when it was raised even further because of the Dark Gamma Control bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
I thought when I tried some custom curves I had the iris enabled? Was I mistaken? I will try again tonight and pay closer attention but can someone confirm if the iris is/should be disabled when switching to the custom gamma from the auto HDR mode? EDIT - I have the 520 if that matters.

Thanks
In HDR, the manual iris is enabled but the dynamic iris should be disabled. If you don't disable it, it will fully open as soon as it detects HDR content, so not only you will not get a dynamic iris, but whichever peak white you selected wit the manual iris will be lost.

Anyway, I've just heard back from Ken, the HD Fury developers are implementing what we need - a "strip metadata only" feature into both the linker and the Integral. I will give more details when we get the new f/w and I've tested it, which should be very soon [EDIT: I hear it could be as soon as in a few hours!]

Last edited by Manni01; 02-16-2017 at 08:36 AM.
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