Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 702 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 84862Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #21031 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 03:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Earth (most days!)
Posts: 5,189
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2108 Post(s)
Liked: 2388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hahaha, you guys are funny...

Here in Sydney Australia $1 Million AUD ($769K) gets you a 2 bedroom house and about 100sqm of property.

https://www.domain.com.au/2a-commodo...042-2013366554

A quick search reveals this... Pathetic! Most expensive city in the world. Its why I moved to the central coast, 100km north of Sydney.


My house I live in now, I don't own but I plan to build a new house up here in the next couple of years, its MUCH more affordable.

This house I live in now is about $550KUSD. See below. 284Sqm / 3000sqft. Theatre room is that 'Living Room' on the left there. I just wish it were closed off with doors, its open to the rest of the house... hence I am building 4x 18" subs this week for a bit more tactile response

Are you talking about the sliding black condom room (I thought that was an apartment)?
Javs likes this.

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> Our 4K/3D Immersive Theater
krichter1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #21032 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,056
Mentioned: 497 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6933 Post(s)
Liked: 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Are you talking about the sliding black condom room (I thought that was an apartment)?
Nah mate I moved.


I dont own the place otherwise I would be slapping black paint and drilling massive holes in the wall left right and center!
krichter1 likes this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #21033 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 04:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sonichart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: East Dundee, IL
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Got it thanks!


How does one install Python of a Windows 10 PC? I sue python on my NAS but I never had to install it on a PC before...


Found it here (think) in case others are looing for it too: https://www.python.org/downloads/
I've been using and learning while using Anaconda as an interpreter.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Manni01 likes this.

JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
Denon x4200 ¤ Onkyo M5010 ¤ iNuke 3000 ¤ 7.2.2
HTPC GTX1080 + MadVR is my master now ¤ Zidoo X8
sonichart is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #21034 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 04:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sonichart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: East Dundee, IL
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
For example, my last curve was 200-1100-4000. The new version here is called JVC-1100-800-4000, because I wanted to start rolling off from 800nits. This is a much better version of what I was attempting to do with Calman and the JVC Autocal.

Then I also quickly generated a JVC-1000-100-4000, which starts rolling off at 100nits

A JVC-800-500-4000 which should be a bit brighter for larger screens

And a JVC-600-400-4000 for super large / low gain screens.

This should give a decent starting point for many people, other than this create your own curve or ask your calibrator to do so.
So I was thinking my new light meter might be of use and taking measurements at high and low lamp -0 fL. Am I able to convert that to nits by multiplying fL by 3.43 and then pick a curve based on that?

I have 130" wide .94 gain screen.2.35:1. 16ft throw

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
Denon x4200 ¤ Onkyo M5010 ¤ iNuke 3000 ¤ 7.2.2
HTPC GTX1080 + MadVR is my master now ¤ Zidoo X8
sonichart is offline  
post #21035 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 04:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,183
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2814 Post(s)
Liked: 2731
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Funny we were looking to relocate to Chandler (even Goodyear), last year but I think at this point we've all but settled on Coach's neck (red? ), of the woods in Tennessee (great/low cost place to retire from all my research!).
Oohh Chandler! I had the meal of a lifetime at the famous Kai Restaurant in Chandler. I still dream about it.

My son is a golf fanatic, hence the locations of tournaments and desirable golf courses dominate our family vacations (to my chagrin - I don't really golf).

Funny enough...now my son goes to school in Tennessee (golf scholarship...at least golf was good for something aside from ensuring monotonous family vacations...).
krichter1 likes this.
R Harkness is offline  
post #21036 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 04:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,966
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Thanks Steve (and others), I'll try this later today and see if it makes a difference. What did you use to resolve to +7 on color (Masciola color clipping or just bars w/ blue filter)?

I have the Roku as well for HDR so maybe using the JVC to provide a "universal" HDR setting makes more sense.
Naw, just eye-balled the color increase. +7 sounds like a lot, but not really that much on the screen. I'm not touching Hue, just overall color in the JVC. If you use RM's Mixed color clipping test, you'll see that white is spot on, but Green and Cyan are elevated and Red and Magenta are below target. It's not drastic, but definitely something someone like Chad could dial in better. I'm really a lazy bastard at nearly 62, so I'm very happy letting Manni play with Arve's software and put out even better curves. Both guys deserve awards and beers! Anytime in the DC area, let me know! Their work has made HDR worth investing in and the JVC RS500 a great projector, especially at the price I paid. Over 700 hours and the lamp looks like new too! Loving it and think that SDR BT.2020 is no longer a high priority either.

I think Manni put out a new curve that should be even better for my larger screen, so will be giving that a shot tonight!!!!
krichter1, billqs and atabea like this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #21037 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 04:56 PM
Member
 
LTD_666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Madrid Spain
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Arne, you are the man!

I was able to use your tool to generate a much better version of what I have been trying to do with the JVC Autocal/Calman since last week. I have also generated a few other curves quickly for others to try. I'm afraid that most of what I've done last week is obsolete and superseded by this tool. As usual, the actual links are in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread here: Here is the log:

From the 02-16-17, I'm using the jvc tool to create custom curves provided here by Arne (thanks a million Arne, you're a star!).

[EDIT: hold off, there is something wrong in the new curves, I'm getting clipping, I'll put them back soon].

Anyone who wants a better curve, learn to use it or ask your calibrator to do it for you. It's amazing!

I upload my first quick attempts at using this tool here, these curves superseed all the others. By using the tool yourself, you get better curves with more gradations. These files are like a low-resolution picture compared to the original (11 steps instead of up to 256).

I use a new file name standard, with JVC in the front to make the difference with the old files, which can all go to the bin. There is no need for the old first parameter as there is no calibration involved, it's all mathematical. My PJ isn't part of the process at all.

The new files give the target, the beginning of the roll-off and the clipping point. So the first parameter is like the second in the old file name convention, the second one is new and the last one is the same as before.

For example, my last curve was 200-1100-4000. The new version here is called JVC-1100-800-4000, because I wanted to start rolling off from 800nits. This is a much better version of what I was attempting to do with Calman and the JVC Autocal.

Then I also quickly generated a JVC-1000-100-4000, which starts rolling off at 100nits

A JVC-800-500-4000 which should be a bit brighter for larger screens

And a JVC-600-400-4000 for super large / low gain screens.

This should give a decent starting point for many people, other than this create your own curve or ask your calibrator to do so.

I haven't had the time to do any extensive testing, and I could have got some of the parameters wrong (I need to figure out a couple), but overall they should work well.

[EDIT: need to check the parameters]

This tool should make Carbon and Stranger very happy, they can try anything they want very easily.
Could you send me by PM the technical information to use the Arne's software and whatever else that you consider relevant in relation with this software?

Thanks in advance
LTD_666 is online now  
post #21038 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 05:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Okay, I put the links back on for the new curves mentioned here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50819409

I had not done much testing as I was very excited with the results but when I did a bit more QC I noticed some clipping in the highlights.

I've changed a few things and it's not perfect but it's much better that what we had (I think). Much brighter too.

It's very much a work in progress as I'm flying blind with the parameters until we get more info from Arve (I haven't heard back from him yet).

The roll-off could be much improved but at the moment I had to do it that way to resolve up to 4000nits.

Also the files I export are not as good as the original calibration.

Anyway, it should be good enough as a proof of concept. I'm still clipping more than I'd like with 4000nits titles, but it's very watchable.

I've only watched a few scenes on The Shallows to release this early, there might be more issues in these curves, as they are not handmade but machine made, they are better (I think) but I have less control over them (which is probably WHY they are better)

Let us know what you think, especially the brighter ones for users with a larger screen.

Still, these won't replace a curve made specifically for your needs, but with this tool it's now super easy to experiment.

As soon as I'm sure of which parameter does what, I'll post more details. Hopefully Arve will pitch in if he can help.
stevenjw, AidenL, atabea and 2 others like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-16-2017 at 06:35 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #21039 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Parameters to generate custom curves using the gamma tool

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD_666 View Post
Could you send me by PM the technical information to use the Arne's software and whatever else that you consider relevant in relation with this software?

Thanks in advance
As explained in the post above, I haven't heard back from Arve yet so I'm flying blind.

I'll release more definitive info when I'm sure of what each parameter is doing and how to use it.

For now, here is what I *think*, but I could be completely wrong, I've had very little time to figure this out. Please take the below with a bucket of salt:

Max Brightness: target in nits, lower = brighter (steeper curve) but less saturation, higher = dimmer but more saturation, I suggest as before between 600-1100nits
Soft clip start: where to start the roll-off (in nits). It has to be lower than the above, I'd say at least a couple hundred nits. I use 800 for a 1000-1100 target, but 400 for a 600 target.
Hard clip brightness: where you want to clip (I initially thought 4000nits but I get some clipping on 4000nits so I'm using 10000nits now). This is one of the parameters I'm not sure about. With my own curves, I could adjust the roll-off point manually to clip where I want to. I could still do this, but I need to understand better how the roll-off parameters work to achieve that without any manual adjustment.
Clip end slope (0-1): 0 = straight from soft clip start to hard clip brightness, 1 = most curved shape between these two points. Any value between 0 and 1 are possible to adjust the roll-off shape of the curve, I'm using 0.3 for now but this should be adjusted depending on the other parameters.
Soft clip method: 0=soft, 1=hard, I'm using 0.
Soft clip gamma (0-1): not sure about that one, maybe Arve knows. I use 1 for now, I haven't had the time to figure it out. It might be the parameter I need to adjust to get the roll-off I want, i.e. using a hard clip brightness of 4000 yet resolving up to 4000nits without having a silly shaped curve.

All the curves I uploaded are generated by the software, I didn't edit them at all, which is why it's still a work in progress. The only difference is that they are translated from whatever resolution they use internally (256 points I think) to the 11 points of the custom gamma files when the JVC Autocal software exports them as text files. You can edit them with the JVC Autocal gamma feature, but then you lose some of the original resolution, as I assume it will recalculate the target in between the point you change and the point before it and after it.

We need more info from Arve (or whoever designed this wonderful piece of software) ideally.

Have fun with the above, and please let us know if you can confirm this or have better ideas about what each of these does.

Still, I'm quite pleased with the experimental results. Not ideal yet, but I think already better than what we had as we're not approximating the targets with the screen offset trick on a workflow designed for flat panels, we're using actual targets. That makes a big difference, plus of course it's incredibly faster.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-16-2017 at 06:33 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #21040 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 06:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
One thing I forgot to mention about the new curves, I had to lower my brightness setting in the panny from +6 to +4. Contrast still at -1. JVC still at 0,0.

Doing more testing, I think these new curves might please people with larger screens/lower gain, but I'm still not please with the clipping of the highlights, even on 1000nits titles like Deadpool.

So I'm back for now on my old 200-1100-4000 and 140-1100-400V2. They look a bit less bright but they are better in the highlights, at least here, unless I lower my contrast setting to -4.

[EDIT: with contrast at -4 in the Panny, they are much better, so I'm back to the new curves].
[EDIT2: that was with 1000nits titles. With 4000nits titles, I need -6 in the Panny contrast to not lose detail in the highlights].
[EDIT3: this is testing the JVC-1100-800-4000 curve. I haven't tested any of the others which might have other issues.

Finally, I didn't measure anything as I didn't have the time to get the meters out, I did everything by eye, so there might be hidden nasties as well.

This new tool is great and it has a lot of potential but we need more info to use it better. At least I do.
LTD_666 likes this.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-16-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #21041 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 06:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,966
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked: 874
Great -- Thanks!!!!

I've downloaded the four new JVC- curves and will try the ones for the larger screens later tonight and report back. I'm hoping that Arve (not Arne, at least not according to GitHub) will get back to you soon and confirm/explain the parameters so that you'll know if the four you've posted are good to go.

Loving this work guys!!! Thanks so much.
krichter1 and Manni01 like this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #21042 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 06:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
COACH2369's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,457
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Funny we were looking to relocate to Chandler (even Goodyear), last year but I think at this point we've all but settled on Coach's neck (red? ), of the woods in Tennessee (great/low cost place to retire from all my research!). I spent a number of years in SanDiego after I got out of the Marine Corps (other than Hawaii which we LOVED; SD is heaven on earth IMO!), and actually my daughter was born there, but like you said... WAY out of my real estate budget at this point (I want more than a 1500sqft townhouse for my $600K!... in TN that would be a mansion or a phenom lake/Mtn retirement home in a great golfing community!).

Y'ALL can come on down! You will be able to get quite a nice place down this way and build yourself one heck of a theater. Plus, Chad is down this way quite a bit for touch ups on your calibrations..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
Anyone see John Wick 2? Totally off the wall, funny one-liners with a lot of polite gun scenes. Keanu Reeves eliminates 121 targets ... beats Clint Eastwoods 95 in Where Eagles Dare. Must see.
This was phenomenal from all aspects... Video, audio and kick butt action. I made a comment in the KC thread about this. Now after seeing it twice in the theater, I am convinced the audio engineer knew what we wanted as A/V geeks wanted with the sequel. The video was also eye candy. No doubt the 4K transfer will be demo material!

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Oohh Chandler! I had the meal of a lifetime at the famous Kai Restaurant in Chandler. I still dream about it.

My son is a golf fanatic, hence the locations of tournaments and desirable golf courses dominate our family vacations (to my chagrin - I don't really golf).

Funny enough...now my son goes to school in Tennessee (golf scholarship...at least golf was good for something aside from ensuring monotonous family vacations...).
What school is he representing?

We have had the mildest winter in the 10 years I have been down here. Golf season never ended down here.
krichter1 and Carbon Ft Print like this.
COACH2369 is offline  
post #21043 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 06:49 PM
Member
 
arve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As explained in the post above, I haven't heard back from Arne yet so I'm flying blind.

I'll release more definitive info when I'm sure of what each parameter is doing and how to use it.

For now, here is what I *think*, but I could be completely wrong, I've had very little time to figure this out. Please take the below with a bucket of salt:

Max Brightness: target in nits, lower = brighter (steeper curve) but less saturation, higher = dimmer but more saturation, I suggest as before between 600-1100nits
Soft clip start: where to start the roll-off (in nits). It has to be lower than the above, I'd say at least a couple hundred nits. I use 800 for a 1000-1100 target, but 400 for a 600 target.
Hard clip brightness: where you want to clip (I initially thought 4000nits but I get some clipping on 4000nits so I'm using 10000nits now). This is one of the parameters I'm not sure about. With my own curves, I could adjust the roll-off point manually to clip where I want to. I could still do this, but I need to understand better how the roll-off parameters work to achieve that without any manual adjustment.
Clip end slope (0-1): 0 = straight from soft clip start to hard clip brightness, 1 = most curved shape between these two points. Any value between 0 and 1 are possible to adjust the roll-off shape of the curve, I'm using 0.3 for now but this should be adjusted depending on the other parameters.
Soft clip method: 0=soft, 1=hard, I'm using 0.
Soft clip gamma (0-1): not sure about that one, maybe Arve knows. I use 1 for now, I haven't had the time to figure it out. It might be the parameter I need to adjust to get the roll-off I want, i.e. using a hard clip brightness of 4000 yet resolving up to 4000nits without having a silly shaped curve.

All the curves I uploaded are generated by the software, I didn't edit them at all, which is why it's still a work in progress. The only difference is that they are translated from whatever resolution they use internally (256 points I think) to the 11 points of the custom gamma files when the JVC Autocal software exports them as text files. You can edit them with the JVC Autocal gamma feature, but then you lose some of the original resolution, as I assume it will recalculate the target in between the point you change and the point before it and after it.

We need more info from Arne (or whoever designed this wonderful piece of software) ideally.

Have fun with the above, and please let us know if you can confirm this or have better ideas about what each of these does.

Still, I'm quite pleased with the experimental results. Not ideal yet, but I think already better than what we had as we're not approximating the targets with the screen offset trick on a workflow designed for flat panels, we're using actual targets. That makes a big difference, plus of course it's incredibly faster.
"max brightness" is the brightness you claim your projector can reach. The impact of changing this is as you describe.
"soft clip start brightness" is the brightness where the curve will stop following the eotf curve and start a soft clip curve.
"hard clip brightness" is where the soft clip curve ends.
"clip end slope" moves the angle of the curve at the end point from horizontal (1) to pointing at the soft clip start point (0).
"soft clip method" selects between a cubic Bézier curve (0) and quadratic Bézier curve (1).
"soft clip gamma" selects the gamma to draw the soft clip curve in, but does not currently work correctly to it is best to leave it at 1.

If you want a hard clip set the hard and soft clip brightness values to the same value (this is not well tested however).
All values above "hard clip brightness" be clipped, but if "clip end slope" is close to 1 this needs be set much higher than the levels you care about. You can plot a hard clipping curve on the same graph to better see where the curve becomes mostly flat in this case.

Also, the jvc_gamma.py script currently assumes the projector is configured for super white. If you don't want this, change the lines near the top of the script from:
#white = 255 # normal/enhanced
white = (235 - 16) * (255 / (255 - 16)) # super white
to:
white = 255 # normal/enhanced
#white = (235 - 16) * (255 / (255 - 16)) # super white

Last edited by arve; 02-16-2017 at 06:52 PM.
arve is offline  
post #21044 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 07:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
"max brightness" is the brightness you claim your projector can reach. The impact of changing this is as you describe.
"soft clip start brightness" is the brightness where the curve will stop following the eotf curve and start a soft clip curve.
"hard clip brightness" is where the soft clip curve ends.
"clip end slope" moves the angle of the curve at the end point from horizontal (1) to pointing at the soft clip start point (0).
"soft clip method" selects between a cubic Bézier curve (0) and quadratic Bézier curve (1).
"soft clip gamma" selects the gamma to draw the soft clip curve in, but does not currently work correctly to it is best to leave it at 1.

If you want a hard clip set the hard and soft clip brightness values to the same value (this is not well tested however).
All values above "hard clip brightness" be clipped, but if "clip end slope" is close to 1 this needs be set much higher than the levels you care about. You can plot a hard clipping curve on the same graph to better see where the curve becomes mostly flat in this case.

Also, the jvc_gamma.py script currently assumes the projector is configured for super white. If you don't want this, change the lines near the top of the script from:
#white = 255 # normal/enhanced
white = (235 - 16) * (255 / (255 - 16)) # super white
to:
white = 255 # normal/enhanced
#white = (235 - 16) * (255 / (255 - 16)) # super white

Thanks! This superwhite setting will explain why I'm getting clipping in the highlights


Just to clarify, the first parameter, are we supposed to specify the actual peakY of the projector (say 200nits in high lamp)? I Tried this but I got lots of divided by zero errors, so I tried to specify instead a higher nits value. If that's the case I've probably specified a way too high value.


I did leave the soft clip gamma at 1 because it seemed to work better, so at least I didn't get that wrong!


Thanks again for providing this tool, it's really wonderful, I hope I'll be able to master it better soon.


I guess it's not possible to save the curves in full resolution, we have to specify the parameters and upload them again, correct?


It would be great to have values on the x/y axis of the chart, I can guess roughly but it would be easier with a few guideline numbers if at all possible.


Keep up the good work and please let us know when you update the tool!
Manni01 is online now  
post #21045 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 07:20 PM
Member
 
arve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks! This superwhite setting will explain why I'm getting clipping in the highlights


Just to clarify, the first parameter, are we supposed to specify the actual peakY of the projector (say 200nits in high lamp)? I Tried this but I got lots of divided by zero errors, so I tried to specify instead a higher nits value. If that's the case I've probably specified a way too high value.


I did leave the soft clip gamma at 1 because it seemed to work better, so at least I didn't get that wrong!


Thanks again for providing this tool, it's really wonderful, I hope I'll be able to master it better soon.


I guess it's not possible to save the curves in full resolution, we have to specify the parameters and upload them again, correct?


It would be great to have values on the x/y axis of the chart, I can guess roughly but it would be easier with a few guideline numbers if at all possible.


Keep up the good work and please let us know when you update the tool!
If you set "max brightness" to the actual peak brightness of your projector then reference white will be 100 nits. If you have a large screen, this is probably too bright, so you can multiply your actual peak brightness by the same value you would divide 100 by to get the reference white value out want. I can change the script to ask for these as separate values, but for now I just do that calculation by hand.

If you want to save the generated curves, you can use a python shell and call the get_gamma function by hand.

I agree having values on the chart would be good, but the api I used does not make that simple, so this is not likely to happen anytime soon (unless someone else adds it).
Manni01 and LTD_666 like this.
arve is offline  
post #21046 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 08:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
If you set "max brightness" to the actual peak brightness of your projector then reference white will be 100 nits. If you have a large screen, this is probably too bright, so you can multiply your actual peak brightness by the same value you would divide 100 by to get the reference white value out want. I can change the script to ask for these as separate values, but for now I just do that calculation by hand.

If you want to save the generated curves, you can use a python shell and call the get_gamma function by hand.

I agree having values on the chart would be good, but the api I used does not make that simple, so this is not likely to happen anytime soon (unless someone else adds it).
Thanks a lot Arve, if you could change the script to ask for the separate values it would be great, but it's not a problem to do it by hand for now.

I've taken down all the curves again as the highlights are definitely wrong (I really couldn't understand why I was clipping both 1000nits and 4000nits titles).

I'll put them back on tomorrow when I have some time, but I have more news before I go to bed (it's getting late here)...
Manni01 is online now  
post #21047 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 08:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Breaking news on the DI front!

I have good news and bad news on the HD Fury front...

The bad news first: unfortunately they can't disable HDR on the Integral due to technical limitations of the chipset. They tried (which is amazing) but it's simply not possible. This is why the quick and dirty workaround we tried this morning didn't work.

However, they did it for the Linker!

We know have a "disable HDR" option just for us on the GUI (see screenshot attached) and... IT WORKS!

I am watching right now the world first and world only bulb based JVC with a dynamic iris, and it seems to be working absolutely fine!

I'll give more details when the f/w is available publicly, but it's as easy as checking the box "disable HDR" to get the Panny to send the full HDR content and the JVC to think it's receiving SDR...

From there, Gamma D isn't forced anymore, so whichever gamma preset we have selected in our HDR user modes (I have two, one for low lamp, the other for high lamp) remain selected, and the DI can be enabled. Of course you have to select the correct user mode in the JVC, manually or with iRule, Harmony etc.

I haven't had a chance to try any of the usual torture tests, but at first sight I can't see any obvious artifact beyond those you'd get in SDR with the iris fully open, and I have seen the first decent fade to black in HDR from a low APL scene. This makes me really wonder why on earth the DI was disabled in the first place in HDR. Maybe we'll find out on closer inspection.

Given this development, there is no need for SDR2020 anymore as far as I'm concerned: with a properly calibrated ST2084 curve, a functional DI and a gamma preset that isn't forced to gamma D, the only thing people would need is for JVC to give us an option to disable their automatic HDR detection.

In the meantime, the solution is the HD Fury Linker with the upcoming f/w19 .

I can't share the beta f/w I'm using now as it's not public, but the release of their V19 will be available anytime (it was a good timing that I got in touch today as they managed to slip this in at the last minute).

I have some issues having the Integral connected at the same time, but as the only thing I need the Integral for is to switch between EDID 8 (HDR) and EDID 10 (SDR BT2020) and as I have no intention of using SDR BT2020 anymore, I don't mind having only the linker in the chain if I can't solve this. The only other need I have for the Integral is as a switcher when I do an A/B between two PJ, so I can connect it back when that happens.

What a week for the JVCs! A properly calibrated HDR mode and the DI working as well!

A HUGE thank you to the HDFury team, Ken and the devs, who have spent the day making this work while they were about to release a new version of their f/w... these guys ROCK!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	manni.png
Views:	133
Size:	7.1 KB
ID:	1974377  

Last edited by Manni01; 02-16-2017 at 08:44 PM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #21048 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 09:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 775 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Manni, you have given new life to our JVCs by making HDR a viable and, indeed, the preferred option. Between the Linker news and the custom curves it's as good as its ever going to get for us folks who don't have access to ChadB, or someone with his skill-set and cutting edge knowledge about HDR. I can't contribute on a technical level and I wish I could help out in some way. Your (considerable) time and effort to create and fine tune the custom curves are appreciated. Like I said, if you ever visit the Toronto area, there will be some Canadian hospitality waiting for you.
IMDave, Manni01 and mavang like this.
atabea is offline  
post #21049 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,966
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I've taken down all the curves again as the highlights are definitely wrong (I really couldn't understand why I was clipping both 1000nits and 4000nits titles).

I'll put them back on tomorrow when I have some time, but I have more news before I go to bed (it's getting late here)...
Thanks for the update. I won't bother trying the ones downloaded earlier, but will wait for new ones to be uploaded. Thanks!
krichter1 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #21050 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,966
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 649 Post(s)
Liked: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The solution is the HD Fury Linker with the upcoming f/w19.

it's as easy as checking the box "disable HDR" to get the Panny to send the full HDR content and the JVC to think it's receiving SDR...

What a week for the JVCs! A properly calibrated HDR mode and the DI working as well!

A HUGE thank you to the HDFury team, Ken and the devs, who have spent the day making this work while they were about to release a new version of their f/w... these guys ROCK!
That's awesome news!!!! I'm assuming that this will work with any HDR source (Oppo, etc.) and not just the Panny.

Looks like I'll be picking up a Linker as soon as you've done a little more testing to confirm all is definitely well and the new firmware is released. Definitely a great week for HDR on the JVC. I can hardly wait for HDR with a working DI. That's YUGE!!!!!
Manni01 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 02-16-2017 at 10:19 PM.
stevenjw is offline  
post #21051 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,366
Mentioned: 361 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5653 Post(s)
Liked: 5980
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
That's awesome news!!!! I'm assuming that this will work with any HDR source (Oppo, etc.) and not just the Panny.

Looks like I'll be picking up a Linker as soon as you've done a little more testing to confirm all is definitely well and the new firmware is released. Definitely a great week for HDR on the JVC. I can hardly wait for HDR with a working DI. That's YUGE!!!!!
I can't confirm other sources, as for example the Oppo had issues working in SDR BT2020 with the Integral, but as in this case nothing special is asked of the player, just to send full HDR content as normal, it *should* be working fine.

And you're right, the working DI (bar any downside I haven't discovered yet) that's YUGE
stevenjw, krichter1 and Bandyka like this.
Manni01 is online now  
post #21052 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:31 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,925
Mentioned: 168 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5419 Post(s)
Liked: 5778
1 HDFury linker on the way to the US...

ordered now before they sell out

Manni this is too much to take... my watch says it's 5:31am in UK, you've been up all night haven't you !!
krichter1, Manni01 and Javs like this.
zombie10k is online now  
post #21053 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,056
Mentioned: 497 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6933 Post(s)
Liked: 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I have good news and bad news on the HD Fury front...

The bad news first: unfortunately they can't disable HDR on the Integral due to technical limitations of the chipset. They tried (which is amazing) but it's simply not possible. This is why the quick and dirty workaround we tried this morning didn't work.

However, they did it for the Linker!

We know have a "disable HDR" option just for us on the GUI (see screenshot attached) and... IT WORKS!

I am watching right now the world first and world only bulb based JVC with a dynamic iris, and it seems to be working absolutely fine!

I'll give more details when the f/w is available publicly, but it's as easy as checking the box "disable HDR" to get the Panny to send the full HDR content and the JVC to think it's receiving SDR...

From there, Gamma D isn't forced anymore, so whichever gamma preset we have selected in our HDR user modes (I have two, one for low lamp, the other for high lamp) remain selected, and the DI can be enabled. Of course you have to select the correct user mode in the JVC, manually or with iRule, Harmony etc.

I haven't had a chance to try any of the usual torture tests, but at first sight I can't see any obvious artifact beyond those you'd get in SDR with the iris fully open, and I have seen the first decent fade to black in HDR from a low APL scene. This makes me really wonder why on earth the DI was disabled in the first place in HDR. Maybe we'll find out on closer inspection.

Given this development, there is no need for SDR2020 anymore as far as I'm concerned: with a properly calibrated ST2084 curve, a functional DI and a gamma preset that isn't forced to gamma D, the only thing people would need is for JVC to give us an option to disable their automatic HDR detection.

In the meantime, the solution is the HD Fury Linker with the upcoming f/w19 .

I can't share the beta f/w I'm using now as it's not public, but the release of their V19 will be available anytime (it was a good timing that I got in touch today as they managed to slip this in at the last minute).

I have some issues having the Integral connected at the same time, but as the only thing I need the Integral for is to switch between EDID 8 (HDR) and EDID 10 (SDR BT2020) and as I have no intention of using SDR BT2020 anymore, I don't mind having only the linker in the chain if I can't solve this. The only other need I have for the Integral is as a switcher when I do an A/B between two PJ, so I can connect it back when that happens.

What a week for the JVCs! A properly calibrated HDR mode and the DI working as well!

A HUGE thank you to the HDFury team, Ken and the devs, who have spent the day making this work while they were about to release a new version of their f/w... these guys ROCK!
Well ****.

Thats some news if I ever seen it.
alebonau, zombie10k and Manni01 like this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #21054 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 10:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Bandyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,879
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2327 Post(s)
Liked: 1422
Linker ordered! Thanks heaps Manni.
Manni01 likes this.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
Bandyka is offline  
post #21055 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 11:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
alebonau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Land of Contentment :)
Posts: 4,849
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1937 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
~

What a week for the JVCs! A properly calibrated HDR mode and the DI working as well!

A HUGE thank you to the HDFury team, Ken and the devs, who have spent the day making this work while they were about to release a new version of their f/w... these guys ROCK!
HOLY COW !!!! all i can say wow ! great to see the fury team working on something like this ... keeps them in the jungle... !

I can see it though... next we will be asking oppo to build in this functionality...not that have the HDR strip working properly yet !

how very interesting ...and this is very BIG news for the HDR lovers around

wow thanks for the news !
stef2 and Manni01 like this.

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


Welcome to my lounge room :)
alebonau is offline  
post #21056 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 11:32 PM
Member
 
arve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks a lot Arve, if you could change the script to ask for the separate values it would be great, but it's not a problem to do it by hand for now.

I've taken down all the curves again as the highlights are definitely wrong (I really couldn't understand why I was clipping both 1000nits and 4000nits titles).

I'll put them back on tomorrow when I have some time, but I have more news before I go to bed (it's getting late here)...
I pushed some changes that adds this and a few other fixes.

You can see the changes at https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools and download a snapshot from https://github.com/arvehj/jvcproject...ive/master.zip.
wocasio, Manni01 and LTD_666 like this.
arve is offline  
post #21057 of 32211 Old 02-16-2017, 11:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dlinsley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,122
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 560 Post(s)
Liked: 445
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
I can see it though... next we will be asking oppo to build in this functionality...not that have the HDR strip working properly yet !
Isn't this what Oppo's initial version did? No, no, go back to what you had! We don't want a slider!
dlinsley is online now  
post #21058 of 32211 Old 02-17-2017, 12:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AidenL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,006
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 674 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
Isn't this what Oppo's initial version did? No, no, go back to what you had! We don't want a slider!
I probably should send my Oppo back?

I guess this latest modification is best used with a Panasonic player and the Linker!

Display : JVC X7000 Projector | SE 103" Enlightor 4k | LG 65B6 OLED |
Sources : Panasonic UDP 700 & Vertex| Apple TV4k | HTPC | Sky Q UHD Satellite | Sonos Connect | Synology 24Tb |
Audio : Marantz 8802A | Genelec 8050 LCR | Monitor Audio IDC Sides & Rears | Seaton Sub Master/Slave |
AidenL is offline  
post #21059 of 32211 Old 02-17-2017, 01:56 AM
Senior Member
 
wocasio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Falls Church, Virginia
Posts: 293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
has anyone tries manni01's gammas for RS500/600 when using a 4k streaming service?

If so, what one, and on what device.

Thanks.
I have an nVidia Shield (2017 pro version). HDR tested both from the netflix and amazon TV apps as well as from mkv files using SPMC. I did not try the newest curves made with arve's tool or tried creating curves myself. Couple of observations of my experience with the curves: (1) I needed to raise BR in the RS600 to +18 based on the Masciola patterns otherwise shadow detail was lost (2) To me either the 400 or the 2390 curves worked better than the next up (1000). I don't think loss of saturation was a problem (at least for me). Even the 1000 was too dark. I know this is different from others experience, but perhaps the shield accounts for it. I look forward to trying out the new arve-based curves, maybe an 800-based one would be a good middle ground.
wocasio is offline  
post #21060 of 32211 Old 02-17-2017, 03:12 AM
Member
 
LTD_666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Madrid Spain
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
If you set "max brightness" to the actual peak brightness of your projector then reference white will be 100 nits. If you have a large screen, this is probably too bright, so you can multiply your actual peak brightness by the same value you would divide 100 by to get the reference white value out want. I can change the script to ask for these as separate values, but for now I just do that calculation by hand.

If you want to save the generated curves, you can use a python shell and call the get_gamma function by hand.

I agree having values on the chart would be good, but the api I used does not make that simple, so this is not likely to happen anytime soon (unless someone else adds it).
Thanks arve for your very interesting contribution. Anyway, I don't get totally understand the different values that every parameter could take. If you agree, I am going to propose my use case.

Mi current equipment is:
  • JVC X-7000 (In my personal conditions: 120 nits aprox. low lamp)
  • Stewart studiotek 130 screen (120", 1,3 gain)
  • 5m throw (something less than 16,5 ft)
  • Dedicated projection room

Supposing I want watch movies recorded between 1000 to 4000 nits, could you propose a reasonable values for each one of this questions? Is only to understand what values the different parameters could take. That is, the order of magnitude of every parameter:
  • Max brightness: ??
  • Soft clip start brightness: ??
  • Hard clip brightness: ??
  • Clip end slope: ??
  • Soft clip method: ??
  • Soft clip gamma: ??


Thanks in advance

Last edited by LTD_666; 02-17-2017 at 03:21 AM.
LTD_666 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
jvc-rs500u synch/display issue? , RS600

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off