Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 715 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 84662Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #21421 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 06:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,499
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 914 Post(s)
Liked: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Awesome, I'm going to give the 190-1000-4000 a go when I get home and will set contrast accordingly to resolve up to 4000 nits, if I'm interpreting your response correctly...


I have to agree, the Gamma D looks over cooked to me but I had to see one of your more natural curves to notice that...


I bet that's the first time someone has suggested u have "natural curves"



I completely agree. While I'd really love the enhanced HDR experience, it seems to require a certain amount of familiarity with various software and proper integration of a number of different elements. Using the Integral to remove HDR and retain BT2020 was very simple, but it appears to me, running Autocal on a Spyder (of dubious reliability) and properly downloading custom gamma curves is orders of magnitude more difficult to get right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #21422 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 06:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 2,794
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2178 Post(s)
Liked: 2041
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I had some issues with placement of the Linker in my setup. I'm using an HTPC as the platform for running the 200-DPI GUI for the Linker via USB. I run [email protected] 4:2:2 12-bit on my HTPC with Radeon R9 290 with latest 17.2.2 software drivers. I can't run 4:4:4 and get over 8-bit, so opt for 4:2:2 and 12-bit. I use 200% DPI for text/apps which allows easy readability from my seating distance with 4K. Running JRiver with MadVR at same [email protected] 4:2:2 12-bit settings saves me a lot of JVC HDMI syncing wait time.

All of my sources connect to the JVC through my Marantz AV7702mkII (pass-through video) and that includes my Oppo 203 and the HTPC. Whenever I place the Linker after my AVR, it screws up the Desktop of the HTPC, dropping it back to 1920x1080 and I have to remove the Linker and reboot to get it back to 3840x2180. I'd rather have it between the AVR and JVC, but only if it behaves and I haven't figured out how to get the right in short time I've had it today. Currently it's between the AVR and Oppo. I have loaded FW 0.19 and set HDCP to 2.2, Custom EDID 2 ([email protected] 444 HDR BT2020 All sound), and checked Disabled HDR. I've always set the Oppo to HDR Forced with Custom 4:4:4 12-bit options.

I did run into the purple tint issue the first time I tried Deadpool, but did a reset, firmware re-install, re-cycle and it didn't do that again. Instead, it worked (JVC did not change gamma and the DI was functioning) as I was hoping. HOWEVER, after about 10 minutes into the movie, I started getting audio drops and then the picture went out (not audio) and came back. This pattern repeated after another 5 minutes or so. Clearly, somethings not right. I need to test with another disc to see if this is re-occurs.

Not sure if I should use SINK, EDID 1, EDID 2, or EDID 18 and if any of those will help in allowing my to move the Linker to after the AVR? I'd really love to know before wasting time testing if issue is my use of EDID 2. Since we have similar setups (Marantz vs. Denon, but same company), I'm going to set the Linker to SINK, move it after the AVR again and report later.
You should report your HTPC issues to the Linker thread.

I am still experimenting. I haven't found a combination of Linker settings and placement yet that is 100% error proof for me.
stevenjw and krichter1 like this.

CJ
JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Vertex/Linker/Integral
claw is offline  
post #21423 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 06:50 AM
Senior Member
 
fingersdlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Regarding the custom gamma.

In my latest I have been setting the hard clip brightness to 3000 instead of 4000. I figure the line is near horizontal for that part of the graph anyway and this compresses the lower range a little less. Is it wrong to think that since very little content is above that clip point (well I am guessing at that but that seems to be the consensus) even on 4k mastered content that "on average" most content will look slightly better with a 3000 hard clip? It would seem non 4000 nit mastered titles will benefit for sure. And if very few scenes have content above 3000 again the vast majority of the movie can look better using 3000?

Curious what others might think.

Besides linkers these curves will also sell a few more bulbs for the JVC as I will watch in High lamp for HDR content - not complaining however. The linker works great and I engaged my iris on Mad Max last night and was reminded what I was missing. Very nice.

I have generated a lot of different combinations (I tried every multiplier from 3 to 12). I have a larger screen and somewhat lower gain (119" 16:9 Firehawk G3 18' throw) so the lower the multiplier the better generally for me. I have three user modes set aside for this. Currently I have 4x, 5x and a 6x multiplier with the latter two my preferred in high lamp but the first I can also run in low lamp with very satisfying results. These are quite a bit lower multipliers than most here have probably even tried. I do pump up the color output from the panny but saturation is not the issue - I much prefer the brighter images. I have tried to compare and contrast with the JVC HDR Gamma D and the equivalent SDR BT.2020 to try and estimate where the intended brightness might be but that is very subjective. Perhaps I should compare with the SDR Rec709 bluray - but it seems these are really two different animals.

Thanks

Last edited by fingersdlp; 02-21-2017 at 06:55 AM.
fingersdlp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #21424 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 06:59 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12,913
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3639 Post(s)
Liked: 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I still believe that you are wasting your time because with less than 50nits peakY you don't have the headroom to make the most of HDR, but that shouldn't prevent you from making your own mind if you have the disposable time. For me, less than 100nits peak white isn't worth dabbling with HDR, otherwise you are compressing content way too much. You barely have enough brightness for SDR, so why would you try HDR? I really can't understand. However, now that we can have the DI enabled in HDR with the linker, there is one case where HDR might be better, it's with titles mastered to 4000nits. The Pana with the SDR slider set to default clips whites at around 600nits. If you move the default to -6, you won't clip until 2000nits, so you're fine with titles mastered to 1000-1100nits. However, to not get any clipping with 4000nits titles, you have to lower the slider down to -12. With that setting, SDR BT2020 is likely too dark on most screens. So in that case, using one of the brightest curves might make sense. You need to experiment and compare.

In my experience, raising brightness above +1 on the JVC raises the black floor, so I wouldn't recommend going above there. If you need to raise brightness further, you have to do it in the player. I now leave the JVC controls to 0,0 and use brightness +4 and contrast -1 in the Panny. YMMV.
1. Since you are using brightness +4 / contrast -1, I assume then that its not out of line that with your bright HDR curve my settings are brightness +5 (or +6 for level 68) and contrast -3?

2. I experimented with adjusting the brightness/contrast in the JVC menu, versus using 0/0 on the JVC and using the UB900 controls instead. Based on Ray's patterns, there was no difference between using the JVC vs UB900 brightness/contrast settings. The impact was the same. Regarding the JVC brightness above +1 raising the black floor - I wasn't seeing this. On Ray's patterns, at JVC +6 brightness, bar 68 was flashing and bar 64 was not, nor did it appear to be raised. At +7 brightness you could see 64 start to flash. I wonder why it behaves differently in your case. Could it be because I am using the bright version of your custom gamma curve and that is doing something at the low end in my setup that requires this +6 boost to brightness without raising the floor?

3. When you say that you don't know how I can be getting any benefit out of HDR due to the "compression". By compression, consider this:
Quote:
For instance in Ray's test patterns there is a close up of a beach with a bright sky in the horizon in the background. At Contrast -25ish you can see an orange flare in the sky fading from left to right, narrowing as it spreads to the right. With contrast of -3, a significant portion of that orange flare is lost.
Does this compression explain why I lose those details in the trailing orange flare part of the sky?

Thanks.
stevenjw likes this.
lovingdvd is offline  
post #21425 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 07:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,708
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5232 Post(s)
Liked: 5468
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I have the Oppo, not the Panasonic, but my adjustments for the 800-600 and 600-400 gammas are not far off from yours. I have Brightness +7 and Contrast -2 in my RS500 based on the Masciola patterns. But I will eventually adjust brightness and contrast in the Oppo instead of the JVC. It was just easier to adjust the settings in the JVC while the patterns were playing from the Oppo.
Have you confirmed the iris definitely working with +7? I am seeing an issue with anything over +4 on either JVC or UB900.

@Manni01 - to clarify, the iris will close down about 1/2 way with +4 on the UB900 and close fully with +3. +5 it won't close at all.

I would appreciate others confirming, running STD HDMI. thx!
sonichart likes this.
zombie10k is offline  
post #21426 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 07:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sonichart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: East Dundee, IL
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Have you confirmed the iris definitely working with +7? I am seeing an issue with anything over +4 on either JVC or UB900.

@Manni01 - to clarify, the iris will close down about 1/2 way with +4 on the UB900 and close fully with +3. +5 it won't close at all.

I would appreciate others confirming, running STD HDMI. thx!
I will try to test things out tonight/tomorrow. I am supposed to take delivery of the Linker today. Fortunately, with the 800 curve I think (IIRC) I have brightness nailed to +3 on the Oppo with Lamp High, Iris -5.

I'm starting to sweat being an early adopter now
krichter1 likes this.

JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
Denon x4200 ¤ Onkyo M5010 ¤ iNuke 3000 ¤ 7.2.2
HTPC GTX1080 + MadVR is my master now ¤ Zidoo X8
sonichart is offline  
post #21427 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 08:01 AM
Senior Member
 
fingersdlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
no chance of high lamp for me in 2D unless I want to burn my retinas. I have a large 142" 2.8 high power screen so I run -11 to -13 most of the time in SDR.

When I do run high lamp in 3D, the resulting PQ is remarkable as there is no such thing as too bright in 3D once the glasses eat up ~80% of the light.
I was an Amiga guy back in the day - wrote a game "Blitz Tank" that was distributed with one of those content magazines. Also this.
Spoiler!

Anyway - I digress. I was searching for your recommended settings for 3D. I was curious what color profile- In my 520 they have a 3D Cinema. Do you just use generally the same settings as for 2D except with High lamp and Iris full open? Thanks for any tips on settings for 3D.

Last edited by fingersdlp; 02-21-2017 at 08:34 AM.
fingersdlp is offline  
post #21428 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 08:21 AM
Member
 
fmarasco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ledgewood, NJ
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by howieshel View Post
Hi All, This is VERY intimidating for near Novice people like me with all the different things do do in the New HDR setup. In my setup I have a k8500>Yamaha 3050>Integral> bottom input 3050> top out put rs500, and top input 3050>bottom out put Sony 930c tv also I have the older 01 serial # Integral. I gave my setup to ask how much Manni01 HDR setup would change my movie picture viewing experience. Is it worth it with using my setup? If so, is there a single post on the tread that lists Set by Step on how to setup the Manni01 HDR with All of whats needed to accomplish this? I ask, because with all this info to process, if it is in multible posts not in a row, gets Quite confusing for me. Thanks
I have not had time to do anything except import the Manni provided gamma curves through the downloaded JVC software and play with the settings based on guidance of people with similar screen size and gain. I tinkered a bit just eyeing the pic up and I can tell you that made a HUGE difference. HDR is amazing with just that little bit. I need to do a pattern check and proper calibration but it is 100% worth it to do the import and try the curves. It is like giving the projector a huge upgrade.
-Frank
fmarasco is offline  
post #21429 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,703
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6577 Post(s)
Liked: 7601
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I completely agree. While I'd really love the enhanced HDR experience, it seems to require a certain amount of familiarity with various software and proper integration of a number of different elements. Using the Integral to remove HDR and retain BT2020 was very simple, but it appears to me, running Autocal on a Spyder (of dubious reliability) and properly downloading custom gamma curves is orders of magnitude more difficult to get right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
SDR BT.2020 certainly can look good on an RS500 / 600. So for those who think the new gamma downloads are too complicated, you can always go this route for now.
nathan_h and krichter1 like this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #21430 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,989
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Have you confirmed the iris definitely working with +7? I am seeing an issue with anything over +4 on either JVC or UB900.

@Manni01 - to clarify, the iris will close down about 1/2 way with +4 on the UB900 and close fully with +3. +5 it won't close at all.

I would appreciate others confirming, running STD HDMI. thx!
Again, I double checked, that's a negative here. The iris closes fully (High lamp, iris fully open), at least as fully as it ever did. As you know, it never fully closes. That's one of the first things I checked.

I have to raise brightness to +8 in the Panny to make it stop in half open position. Even at +7, it still closes fully.

Are you sure you're not raising the black floor one way or the other? Did you do the hide test or measure black?

Anything above +1 for brightness on the JVC WILL raise the black floor, so please don't use more than +1 for brightness on the JVC when testing this. Only use the Panny.

If you raise the black floor then it's normal that the iris won't close fully, because there will be content as far as the DI is concerned. The iris will only close fully if there is no content (full black) for long enough. Some fade to black are too short for the iris to close fully.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
SDR BT.2020 certainly can look good on an RS500 / 600. So for those who think the new gamma downloads are too complicated, you can always go this route for now.
SDR BT2020 clips highlights if you leave the Dynamic Range conversion slider to 0. If you can bring it down to -5 or -6, it won't clip 1000-1100nits mastered titles (like Deadpool), but it will still clip 4000nits mastered titles (like Mad Max or The Shallows). You have to move the slider all the way to -12 to resolve up to 4000nits, which makes the picture way too dim for most. So unless you don't mind losing a lot of detail in the highlights, HDR with a good gamma curve is significantly better than SDR Bt-2020 now that we can achieve this without raising the black floor AND keep using the DI if we want to.
sonichart, krichter1 and atabea like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-21-2017 at 09:17 AM.
Manni01 is offline  
post #21431 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:17 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I found a potential issue with this last night and requesting others to verify. using several different curves last night (ended up looking at 800-600-4000) if I raise the brightness on the JVC or UB900 to anything over 3, I am not seeing the DI engage even on credit screens. Lower it from 4 to 3 ( either JVC or UB900) and it works fine.

Claw/Steve/Stanger/Manni- folks with the linker, can you please look closely at this as see if you can replicate?
I didn't take the time to fire up Ray's patterns to (re)check my clipping points, but the DI was definitely working for me. I'll have to check the clipping patterns....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I still believe that you are wasting your time because with less than 50nits peakY you don't have the headroom to make the most of HDR, but that shouldn't prevent you from making your own mind if you have the disposable time. For me, less than 100nits peak white isn't worth dabbling with HDR, otherwise you are compressing content way too much. You barely have enough brightness for SDR, so why would you try HDR?
Why is it better to have the Panasonic convert from HDR EOTF to SDR EOTF rather than just calibrate (via custom curves) the projector to handle it directly? If we're talking UHD BD, the content is HDR, there's no SDR at all. The only question is whether the player converts to SDR first or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I am really surprised that the .19 firmware was installed.
So was I. First thing I did was download the latest software, and before I went to update the firmware, I checked the GUI and it said 0.19, and sure enough with HDR disabled it works just like it's supposed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
^^^I agree, this is one of the largest (if not THE largest) threads on this forum. I wish the discussion would be more strictured, i.e. there would be separate paralles threads running on autocal, calibration, HDR, etc. This would be much easiser to read and follow and various questions will not be lost in so many posts that building up too fast.
There is an autocal thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I completely agree. While I'd really love the enhanced HDR experience, it seems to require a certain amount of familiarity with various software and proper integration of a number of different elements. Using the Integral to remove HDR and retain BT2020 was very simple, but it appears to me, running Autocal on a Spyder (of dubious reliability) and properly downloading custom gamma curves is orders of magnitude more difficult to get right.
You're way overthinking it and getting too caught up in the details. I'll lay it out again for those who are intimidated. To use a custom curve with DI enabled, all you have to do is:
  • Get a Linker
  • Set the Linker to Disable HDR
  • Download a custom gamma curve
  • Import the custom gamma curve with the autocal software.
  • Make a user preset with the new gamma curve and whatever other settings you want.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
There is nothing here harder, more complicated than getting SDR+Rec.2020 to work. For that you needed:
  • Get an Integral (or Linker)
  • Set the Integral to specific EDID
  • Download the Rec.2020 color profile*
  • Upload the Rec.2020 color profile with the autocal software*
  • Make a user preset with the correct color profile and other settings.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
*Now granted, you may not have had to do these steps, depending on when you got your projector, I had to import the Rec.2020 profile as it wasn't pre-installed on mine.

Regardless, it's certainly not an order of magnitude more complicated.


Now if you want to make your own curves, that's definitely much more complicated, but just like you didn't have to understand autocal for SDR+Rec.2020, you don't have to understand that, or how curves are made to use Stripped HDR and Custom gammas.
stanger89 is offline  
post #21432 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,708
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5232 Post(s)
Liked: 5468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Again, I double checked, that's a negative here. The iris closes fully (High lamp, iris fully open), at least as fully as it ever did. As you know, it never fully closes. That's one of the first things I checked.

I have to raise brightness to +8 in the Panny to make it stop in half open position. Even at +7, it still closes fully.

Are you sure you're not raising the black floor one way or the other? Did you do the hide test or measure black?

If you raise the black floor then it's normal that the iris won't close fully, because there will be content as far as the DI is concerned. The iris will only close fully if there is no content (full black) for long enough. Some fade to black are too short for the iris to close fully.

Thanks Manni, I will go back and verify my findings tonight after all devices power-cycled, I was doing a lot of tinkering in real time, uploading the new curves, etc.

What current curve are you using + the UB900 settings ?
zombie10k is offline  
post #21433 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,708
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5232 Post(s)
Liked: 5468
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I didn't take the time to fire up Ray's patterns to (re)check my clipping points, but the DI was definitely working for me. I'll have to check the clipping patterns....
Which curve are you currently using and what BR/CR in the UB900 or JVC?

please post later tonight when you get a chance, thanks.
zombie10k is offline  
post #21434 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,989
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Why is it better to have the Panasonic convert from HDR EOTF to SDR EOTF rather than just calibrate (via custom curves) the projector to handle it directly? If we're talking UHD BD, the content is HDR, there's no SDR at all. The only question is whether the player converts to SDR first or not.
Because to get the same results (i.e. to get the DI back and not have to replace Gamma D with a custom gamma every time the JVC detects HDR) you have to buy the linker on top the Integral (of course I'm assuming one has the Integral already, like Ric. If you have to buy one or the other, then I'd get the linker and go HDR at this stage).

But that's just me and I'm tired of debating this with you. If you want to advise to someone who can not even reach 50nits peakY (as in Ric's case) to buy a linker on top of their Integral so they can get roughly the same effect as what they get with SDR BT2020 (except for the likely clipping of the highlights on 4000nits titles), then be my guest.

HDR is about getting some highlights above 100nits (in the content) if you have the headroom. If you don't have at least 100nits of actual brightness (i.e. 50nits above the 50nits we use for reference white in SDR, so where we would map the 100nits of the content roughly) I really don't see the point, but again that's just me. Let's agree to disagree
Manni01 is offline  
post #21435 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:33 AM
Senior Member
 
fingersdlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Which curve are you currently using and what BR/CR in the UB900 or JVC?

please post later tonight when you get a chance, thanks.
I was testing many custom curves last night (3x, 4x, 5x, 6x.. etc) and was watching Fury Road to sample. I don't think I ever had brightness above 3 and the iris was working as expected. I can test with higher value for brightness tonight if still a question later.
fingersdlp is offline  
post #21436 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,989
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks Manni, I will go back and verify my findings tonight after all devices power-cycled, I was doing a lot of tinkering in real time, uploading the new curves, etc.

What current curve are you using + the UB900 settings ?
At the moment I'm using JVC-1100-800-4000, JVC 0/0, Panny +4 (B)/-1 (C). HDMI standard of course, YCC 12bits 4:4:4 HDR out of the Panny.
zombie10k and atabea like this.
Manni01 is offline  
post #21437 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:37 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Which curve are you currently using and what BR/CR in the UB900 or JVC?
I made my own, which I attached to a post, probably 150 pages back now

I will have to go look, but last time I calibrated I ended up with some really wonky brightness settings on my JVC. Though they didn't affect black level at all (verified with Calman). I suppose now's as good a time as any...

I ran a fresh autocal recently, and then after than I went in with Calman, and a 128 point (sorry, can't remember exactly, it was more than the usual 10-20, but wasn't the 256 point) grayscale measurement. Interestingly you could totally see the black crush (measured), so I played with brightness and dark level for a while to fix that. I ended up well over +10 for brightness. But it didn't affect my black level at all, Calman reported a consistent ~63,000:1 contrast, and the black measurement was exactly the same each time (non-zero, I ensured that). This was low lamp, IRIS wide open to get enough light to measure with my i1D3.

I believe I zeroed out all my Radiance settings, but it's possible I haven't I need to go through that again and check. Thinking about it now it's possible I've got a bogus 3D LUT in there from before.

At the moment, everything but my UB900 is running through my Radiance XE.
stanger89 is offline  
post #21438 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,989
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I made my own, which I attached to a post, probably 150 pages back now

I will have to go look, but last time I calibrated I ended up with some really wonky brightness settings on my JVC. Though they didn't affect black level at all (verified with Calman). I suppose now's as good a time as any...

I ran a fresh autocal recently, and then after than I went in with Calman, and a 128 point (sorry, can't remember exactly, it was more than the usual 10-20, but wasn't the 256 point) grayscale measurement. Interestingly you could totally see the black crush (measured), so I played with brightness and dark level for a while to fix that. I ended up well over +10 for brightness. But it didn't affect my black level at all, Calman reported a consistent ~63,000:1 contrast, and the black measurement was exactly the same each time (non-zero, I ensured that). This was low lamp, IRIS wide open to get enough light to measure with my i1D3.

I believe I zeroed out all my Radiance settings, but it's possible I haven't I need to go through that again and check. Thinking about it now it's possible I've got a bogus 3D LUT in there from before.

At the moment, everything but my UB900 is running through my Radiance XE.
The i1d3 can't read black, it returns a bogus non-zero value in Calman when it's below its threshold of accuracy (and it returns zero in Chromapure, or it's the opposite I can't remember). So you can raise the black floor and read the same value for black, hence for your on/off contrast, until the black floor is sufficiently raised for the reading to change. The fact that the black measurement was exactly the same every time proves that it was sending the bogus value. If it had been reading black, it would send a slightly different value each time (provided you've changed the default in your Calman layout to display 5 decimals for black, with the default 2 or 3 it's not enough to see any variations).

Try measuring off the lens, or at least double check with HIDE. But an i1d3 in Calman is unlikely to be good enough to make measurement contrasts on a JVC reading off the screen. I got rid of mine because I couldn't use it to measure black for a BT1886 curve.

You really need at least a Discus (and even then, following a strict procedure) or a decent light meter to get reliable black/on-off contrast readings, unless you take readings facing the PJ.

Last edited by Manni01; 02-21-2017 at 09:55 AM.
Manni01 is offline  
post #21439 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 09:58 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The i1d3 can't read black, it returns a bogus non-zero value in Calman when it's below its threshold of accuracy (and it returns zero in Chromapure).
Actually it was reading zero off screen. I had to flip it around and use the diffusor setting and have it part way to the projector to get non-zero readings. Though I can try an move it a bit closer.

Quote:
So you can raise the black floor and read the same value for black, hence for your on/off contrast, until the black floor is sufficiently raised for the reading to change. The fact that the black measurement was exactly the same every time proves that it was sending the bogus value. If it had been reading black, it would send a slightly different value each time (provided you've changed the default in your Calman layout to display 5 decimals for black, with the default 2 or 3 it's not enough to see any variations).
I'll check that, I only had 3 decimals displaying (didn't realize you could change it), so that's probably why I'm seeing the same thing every time. This might also be why I saw zero off the screen (not enough resolution to see the non-zero. IIRC when I was configured, I was getting something like 0.166 cd/m2 for black (going off memory is a dangerous thing).

Also, I was getting real xy values, not the bogus 0.3333/0.3333 you get when it fails to read something.

Quote:
Try measuring off the lens, or at least double check with HIDE. But an i1d3 in Calman is certainly not good enough to make measurement contrasts on a JVC reading off the screen. I got rid of mine because I couldn't use it to measure black for a BT1886 curve.
That's what I was doing. I think I even profiled my i1D3 to itself (off the screen). FWIW, when I was trying to read off screen I got some ridiculous number for contrast, basically a divide by zero error.

Quote:
You really need at least a Discus (and even then, following a strict procedure) or a decent lightmeter to get reliable black/on-off contrast readings.
I thought about it, but $700 is a bit ridiculous for my needs. Though I might get a new light meter, my Dr Meter is fubar apparently.
stanger89 is offline  
post #21440 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 10:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12,913
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3639 Post(s)
Liked: 810
Now that I have Manni's customer gamma curve imported and the black/white clipping levels set, I'm going to do some A/B comparisons of HDR vs SDR BT2020 tonight on select scenes to see if there is any noticeable benefit in my setup for HDR. I must say that it is quite frustrating to have built a dedicated room and nice setup with a large (140" wide, 2.37 AR) AT screen (0.95 gain), but not be able to enjoy the benefits of HDR. At the time I designed the room I figured I would be around 12-14 ftL once zoomed for 2.40 and with a pj filter in place. Indeed this is right on target for what I am getting. But I hadn't realized at the time this would be significantly insufficient brightness for HDR purposes. Had I realized that, I still would not have done anything different tho. It seems I will need a projector with nearly double the lumens - so about 3,000, to being to get the benefits of HDR. Can anyone see that being possible within the next couple of years? Doesn't seem likely without going to lasers which are crazy expensive at the time.

That said, I'm trying to figure out where my lumens have gone, or at least sanity check what I'm getting. According to my math, 13ftL is about 131 lux with high lamp iris open from mid throw, given my 140x59 0.95 gain screen. But I THINK that's just 800 lumens. We are supposed to get closer to 1,500 calibrated lumens, right? So take 1500 and subtract say 20% for being at mid throw, so that leaves 1200 lumens. Subtract another 20% for the WCG filter. That leaves 960 lumens. Bulb has about 600 hours on it, so if it's lost say 5-10% I guess this math all makes sense.

So yea, I need a projector with 3000+ lumens. Sheesh that doesn't seem likely any time soon eh?
mavang likes this.
lovingdvd is offline  
post #21441 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 10:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sonichart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: East Dundee, IL
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I must say that it is quite frustrating to have built a dedicated room and nice setup with a large (140" wide, 2.37 AR) AT screen (0.95 gain), but not be able to enjoy the benefits of HDR. At the time I designed the room I figured I would be around 12-14 ftL once zoomed for 2.40 and with a pj filter in place.
I have a similar screen, 130" wide, 2.35:1 AR, .94 gain, with an RS600.

I am able to get 13.75fL in low-lamp -9 SDR Rec709, picture looks awesome and using AVS 709 calibration, I'm not clipping black levels.

I have been enjoying Manni's curves and am currently auditioning the JVC-800-600-4000 curve with success. The black levels, IMO, could be better-- but I'm hoping to get those a little better by adding the Linker + DI.

However, with your screen I would try Manni's JVC-800-600-4000 curve in High Lamp -5 or 0 if you need the brightness. If that is still too dark, go with the JVC-600-400-4000 custom curve. I attempted to use this one in Low Lamp, Iris -0 ... It looked pretty good, but the highlights didn't pop quite as much.

I still think with or without the Linker, you should have success with one of Manni's two curves that I mentioned.. Good luck!
stevenjw and laugsbach like this.

JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
Denon x4200 ¤ Onkyo M5010 ¤ iNuke 3000 ¤ 7.2.2
HTPC GTX1080 + MadVR is my master now ¤ Zidoo X8
sonichart is offline  
post #21442 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 10:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,989
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Actually it was reading zero off screen. I had to flip it around and use the diffusor setting and have it part way to the projector to get non-zero readings. Though I can try an move it a bit closer.

I'll check that, I only had 3 decimals displaying (didn't realize you could change it), so that's probably why I'm seeing the same thing every time. This might also be why I saw zero off the screen (not enough resolution to see the non-zero. IIRC when I was configured, I was getting something like 0.166 cd/m2 for black (going off memory is a dangerous thing).

Also, I was getting real xy values, not the bogus 0.3333/0.3333 you get when it fails to read something.

That's what I was doing. I think I even profiled my i1D3 to itself (off the screen). FWIW, when I was trying to read off screen I got some ridiculous number for contrast, basically a divide by zero error.

I thought about it, but $700 is a bit ridiculous for my needs. Though I might get a new light meter, my Dr Meter is fubar apparently.
Okay that makes sense then

I bought my Discus second-hand for a bit less than that (£350) but it's the best money I ever spent in a meter. I've recently sent matrix tables to BasiCColor for LCOS made from my i1pro2 so there are some relatively accurate tables for LCOS in various modes (2D-Rec-709, 3D, Wide, HDR Low, HDR High) now in the meter itself. With its laser LED for aiming, it's the best mid-range meter available, and as it can read up to 2500nits it's ready for HDR for a while, especially with projectors... If you see a good second-hand opportunity at a price you can justify, don't hesitate, you won't be disappointed. It's everything the i1d3 never delivered for me. Apart from speed, I wouldn't get much more from a Klein K10a, at least for my humble needs. It has glass filters so it doesn't drift. It's built like a tank. Its main annoyance is the need to dark recalibration at least every 2 hours (every 10mn if you want to measure black relatively accurately). Otherwise, it's a great meter. I almost never take my Minolta T10 out for contrast measurements, except when I want to measure ANSI contrast or validate on/off measurements made with the Discus in Calman.
Manni01 is offline  
post #21443 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12,913
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3639 Post(s)
Liked: 810
Clarification on checking black and white clipping points

1. When people say you need at least 100 nits for HDR - measured under what conditions exactly? I know I'm not anywhere closer to that, and more like half of that. But I do want to measure to know exactly where I am at. But how is this measured? Does the PJ need to be in HDR mode, or can I just display a 100% white field/window non-HDR but with my HDR mode engaged and Manni's custom HDR gamma curve on? If it does need to be in HDR mode, where can I find a 100% pattern WITH HDR enabled? I think the white field patterns on Ray's disc are in non-HDR mode?

2. Similar question for checking black levels... Ted's barrel and other such patterns are exceptional for checking black levels. Can I bring up this pattern in non-HDR mode, but with my HDR custom gamma selected and check the black levels this way? Or does it have to be done with the patterns output by the UB900 in HDR mode? If so, what is a good way to display an all black full field 0% pattern so I can use the hide/unhide check? I don't think I can do this with Ray's patterns and don't know what other HDR patterns I can use for this with the UB900 outputting HDR.

3. Can someone explain the difference between setting contrast/brightness in the JVC vs the UB900? Manni said that raising brightness above +1 in the JVC menu raises his black floor. In my setup (with standard HDMI) I can raise the brightness control in the JVC to +6 which lights up bar 68 in Ray's pattern, but bar 64 *APPEARS* to not brighten. I say "appears" because I am judging by eye, and standing at the screen I can't notice any change in bar 64 from brightness 1-6 in the JVC menu, whereas brightness +7 I see bar 64 light up. Is this a valid test or might I be raising the black floor slightly without realizing it? I would like to confirm this by measuring black 0% full field out of the pj lens. I can easily do this if this does not require an HDR pattern that's 0% full field black (per question #2). If it does then I need to know where to get one.

Thanks guys!
lovingdvd is offline  
post #21444 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 10:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
rak306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Syracuse NY
Posts: 989
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 616 Post(s)
Liked: 252
I'm having trouble getting my RS600 to display a picture with the roku untra, when set to 4k/HDR. I have so called "18gbps certified" 6' cables from monoprice. While it will configure to that resolution, when playing a 4k/HDR amazon video, it looses sync, and just displays noise. In 4k/HDR mode, the roku ultra uses 2160p60 4:2:2, which needs the full 18 gbps.

There is no way to set the roku ultra to 24p. So I'm wondering if there any other media players that do 2160p24 (for amazon prime).

Thanks
rak306 is offline  
post #21445 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 11:06 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,367
Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11689 Post(s)
Liked: 9242
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by davisnub View Post
anyone finding on really bright white scenes that there's a slight screen door effect/sparkle? I have a 0.8 gain screen so I was surprised when I first saw it.
Depending on the screen and the brightness of the image, you can easily have shimmer with a 0.8 gain screen. it will be easier to see when the scene is white clouds.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #21446 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 11:10 AM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Ok. I'm going to go slow with all this and i appreciate the two example ways to set up the Cal & sdr bt2020 stanger89 listed. Is the rec2020 the same as sdr bt2020? if so i looked at down loading the Bt 2020 from JVC Cal software but i don't have a darn Ethernet port on my PC so i'm stuck for now unless i can use the 232 plugin on the rs500. If it is NOT the same How do I set up Integral through GUI with PC to enjoy the benefits talked about when using this SDR BT2020 setup?

Also how do you get these Ray & Ted test screens talked about a couple posts back, It seems that if you don't have these you are lacking in your ability to setup or tweak the levels correctly?

Thanks guys
howieshel is offline  
post #21447 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AidenL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,006
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 674 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I completely agree. While I'd really love the enhanced HDR experience, it seems to require a certain amount of familiarity with various software and proper integration of a number of different elements. Using the Integral to remove HDR and retain BT2020 was very simple, but it appears to me, running Autocal on a Spyder (of dubious reliability) and properly downloading custom gamma curves is orders of magnitude more difficult to get right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

There is an autocal thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html

You're way overthinking it and getting too caught up in the details. I'll lay it out again for those who are intimidated. To use a custom curve with DI enabled, all you have to do is:
  • Get a Linker
  • Set the Linker to Disable HDR
  • Download a custom gamma curve
  • Import the custom gamma curve with the autocal software.
  • Make a user preset with the new gamma curve and whatever other settings you want.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
There is nothing here harder, more complicated than getting SDR+Rec.2020 to work. For that you needed:
  • Get an Integral (or Linker)
  • Set the Integral to specific EDID
  • Download the Rec.2020 color profile*
  • Upload the Rec.2020 color profile with the autocal software*
  • Make a user preset with the correct color profile and other settings.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
*Now granted, you may not have had to do these steps, depending on when you got your projector, I had to import the Rec.2020 profile as it wasn't pre-installed on mine.

Regardless, it's certainly not an order of magnitude more complicated.


Now if you want to make your own curves, that's definitely much more complicated, but just like you didn't have to understand autocal for SDR+Rec.2020, you don't have to understand that, or how curves are made to use Stripped HDR and Custom gammas.

I agree - I literally started to suss this out yesterday, I always shied away from calibration.


Now I have the Autocal software downloaded, I have the curves downloaded, I have loaded a few up already, and my Spyder Express is on the way.


I'm about to order a Linker.


Few quick question for the experts though........


Is it OK for me to import Mannis Gamma curves before I run Autocal?


I see I need the RM patterns to test brightness etc, but do I run that before or after calibration?


Thirdly, do I need a light meter, and if so, any recommendations?


Finally, I have a 103" diagonal Enlightor 4k screen in a total batcave - is there an ideal curve I should be running in this case and if so, will one curve do for 1000 nit and 4000 nit mastered discs or do I need seperate ones?

Display : JVC X7000 Projector | SE 103" Enlightor 4k | LG 65B6 OLED |
Sources : Panasonic UDP 700 & Vertex| Apple TV4k | HTPC | Sky Q UHD Satellite | Sonos Connect | Synology 24Tb |
Audio : Marantz 8802A | Genelec 8050 LCR | Monitor Audio IDC Sides & Rears | Seaton Sub Master/Slave |
AidenL is offline  
post #21448 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 11:43 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,703
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6577 Post(s)
Liked: 7601
Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
I agree - I literally started to suss this out yesterday, I always shied away from calibration.


Now I have the Autocal software downloaded, I have the curves downloaded, I have loaded a few up already, and my Spyder Express is on the way.


I'm about to order a Linker.


Few quick question for the experts though........


Is it OK for me to import Mannis Gamma curves before I run Autocal?


I see I need the RM patterns to test brightness etc, but do I run that before or after calibration?


Thirdly, do I need a light meter, and if so, any recommendations?


Finally, I have a 103" diagonal Enlightor 4k screen in a total batcave - is there an ideal curve I should be running in this case and if so, will one curve do for 1000 nit and 4000 nit mastered discs or do I need seperate ones?
Here's my recommendation - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
AidenL likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #21449 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 12:06 PM
Senior Member
 
bdavidson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
You're way overthinking it and getting too caught up in the details. I'll lay it out again for those who are intimidated. To use a custom curve with DI enabled, all you have to do is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
There is nothing here harder, more complicated than getting SDR+Rec.2020 to work.
I think another thing to point out here on the benefit of the custom curve + linker route over the SDR+Rec.2020 conversion is that SDR+Rec.2020 conversion only works if the source works that way. The Panasonic and Samsung (?) work fine in this mode, but the Oppo or any other HDR sources, that I am aware of, don't.

With custom Gamma curves and a linker, any HDR source would be usable on the JVC.

Bradley
nathan_h and sonichart like this.

Last edited by bdavidson; 02-21-2017 at 12:12 PM.
bdavidson is offline  
post #21450 of 31900 Old 02-21-2017, 01:10 PM
Member
 
howieshel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Thanks for pointing that out Bradley.

What is Spyder express and do i need it?

Howie
howieshel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
jvc-rs500u synch/display issue? , RS600

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off