Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 716 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21451 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
I'm having trouble getting my RS600 to display a picture with the roku untra, when set to 4k/HDR. I have so called "18gbps certified" 6' cables from monoprice. While it will configure to that resolution, when playing a 4k/HDR amazon video, it looses sync, and just displays noise. In 4k/HDR mode, the roku ultra uses 2160p60 4:2:2, which needs the full 18 gbps.

There is no way to set the roku ultra to 24p. So I'm wondering if there any other media players that do 2160p24 (for amazon prime).

Thanks


The nvidia shield does this with Amazon prime, Netflix as well as local files (which you can use to test masciola patterns). I have successfully tested HDR at both p24 and p60 (10 bit) with 4:2:0 which do not require 18G.
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post #21452 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
There is an autocal thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html

You're way overthinking it and getting too caught up in the details. I'll lay it out again for those who are intimidated. To use a custom curve with DI enabled, all you have to do is:
  • Get a Linker
  • Set the Linker to Disable HDR
  • Download a custom gamma curve
  • Import the custom gamma curve with the autocal software.
  • Make a user preset with the new gamma curve and whatever other settings you want.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
There is nothing here harder, more complicated than getting SDR+Rec.2020 to work. For that you needed:
  • Get an Integral (or Linker)
  • Set the Integral to specific EDID
  • Download the Rec.2020 color profile*
  • Upload the Rec.2020 color profile with the autocal software*
  • Make a user preset with the correct color profile and other settings.
  • Set the brightness/contrast with appropriate clipping patterns
*Now granted, you may not have had to do these steps, depending on when you got your projector, I had to import the Rec.2020 profile as it wasn't pre-installed on mine.

Regardless, it's certainly not an order of magnitude more complicated.


Now if you want to make your own curves, that's definitely much more complicated, but just like you didn't have to understand autocal for SDR+Rec.2020, you don't have to understand that, or how curves are made to use Stripped HDR and Custom gammas.
Excellent summary for those that appear to have recently started posting in this thread. My added two cents / advice would be this:

If your screen size is too big, don't expect HDR to work well. It was really designed for displays. I don't ever expect my projector to look as good as my OLED with HDR, or anything for that matter, but I use the projector a lot more because it's bigger. And in my bat-cave, it's bright enough for BDs and some improvements from HDR using a 136" 2.35:1 1.1 gain screen. I'd get more benefits if my screen was smaller or projector was brighter and a real 4K with great lens. It is what it is and I'm just looking to get HDR to look as good as it can right now. A future projector upgrade when the price is right will change that side of the equation.

Start with a proper calibration. Learn and use the Autocal with a low end Spyder5 purchase. Study the top of the JVC Calibration page and ask questions in that thread, not here. Most of us are well past using Autocal. This is important for BD viewing too which is still what most will be projecting. Download the profiles and load them too. Running Autocal and loading these profiles is not that hard, but probably the most complicated part of any process discussed in this thread (except for Arve's software, which you can ignore really and simply use one of Manni's JVC-xxx-xxx-xxx curves). There's a thread for it with a lot of good information. Use it. [Additional costs: $99 for a Spyder5 Express]

The next step in looking for improved HDR would be to load and experiment with one of Manni's curves also discussed in the first post of his calibration thread. This is actually very easy using the Autocal Import/Export portion. Just make sure you drill down when setting up the Custom gamma that you'll load in the JVC by using "Import". Its there in the JVC's list of gammas. As for which curve to use, to be safe and make life easier, just go with one that ends in 4000. That's the max nits you'll need for any HDR with a projector and nearly all source. The JVC prefix specifies the one's he made using Arve's software. With my screen I prefer the JVC-800-600-4000 one in High Lamp. The JVC-600-400-4000 is even brighter, so go for that if you want to use low lamp or have a big screen. It is a little less saturated which is a trade-off for brightness. Manni and some other's have smaller screens under 100" and go with curves that aren't as bright. I also recommend the older 140-1100-4000 V2 curve that he made/posted, but have settled with the two newer JVC prefix curves for MY setup. [Additional costs: Buy Manni a beer]

Once you have a preferred curve or two loaded, the next step is to dial in Brightness (BR) and Contrast (CR) using an appropriate HDR test pattern. I prefer using RM's $25 set of patterns. You can go with the Sony patterns too. RM's are better. You get what you pay for most times. I prefer to set these in the JVC since its easier for me to run the test patterns from my HTPC and allows for multiple HDR sources using the same settings in the JVC. It's your call. The same is true for whatever BR/CR settings you decide to use in YOUR setup based on YOUR eyes. These will vary based on the curve chosen too. For my setup using High Lamp, IRIS -5, JVC-800-600-4000 curve, my JVC BR is +14 and CR is -7. And I'm also not afraid to adjust BR up or down a little based on source. I've done this for BD and TV, so don't expect not to have to do this with UHDs. Not all sources are created equally. [Additional costs: $25 for RM HDR calibration suite]

If you've done all of the above, at this point you should be looking at very good HDR. Much better than GammaD with it's over saturation and poor blacks. Even with the better custom gamma, the problem is that you have to keep selecting it for HDR at the start of the movie itself and still don't have a functioning Dynamic Iris (DI). Loss of DI and bad GammaD were two major issues such that most folk went looking at the use of HDR --> SDR BT.2020 with the Panny/HDFury Integral as the best choice or Oppo still working on perfecting it via firmware without the need for the Integral. Now with the latest v19 firmware for the Linker, one can avoid JVC's automatic selection of GammaD and regain use of the DI with HDR. This is where several of us are at this point in our quest for excellent HDR from our JVCs. We're sill trying to figure out the best placement and EDID settings for this new hardware in our chain. Some are also working with the Linker AND the Integral in their setup. I never purchased the Integral as I went with the Oppo and now find that there's little need for SDR BT.2020 with the Linker and new curves. HDR looks fantastic at this point, not as good as on my OLED, but actually close (a lot closer than before). If you've made it this far, then have a little more patience while the early adopter bleed some more, working out the kinks with the Linker. [Additional costs: $199 for the Linker]

That's really all there is to it folks. Give it a shot first BEFORE asking questions or posting about how complicated it all sounds and how apprehensive you are. It's really not that hard or expensive. Trust your own eyes too and lower your expectation in a home theater environment for HDR. It was really designed for LCD and OLED displays, but can still look and sound better than BDs if you have the right setup and put in the effort. Or hire a calibrator like Chad, though I still recommend spending the additional costs listed above.

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post #21453 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 01:45 PM
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Great post Steve, I'll link to it in the JVC Autocal thread. Excellent summary on the current state of HDR on the JVCs for newbies. As you've quoted Stranger's post as well, they get 2 for 1
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post #21454 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
[Additional costs: $99 for a Spyder5 Express]
[Additional costs: Buy Manni a beer]
[Additional costs: $25 for RM HDR calibration suite]
[Additional costs: $199 for the Linker]

That's really all there is to it folks. Give it a shot first BEFORE asking questions or posting about how complicated it all sounds and how apprehensive you are. It's really not that hard or expensive. Trust your own eyes too and lower your expectation in a home theater environment for HDR. It was really designed for LCD and OLED displays, but can still look and sound better than BDs if you have the right setup and effort on your own. Or higher a calibrator like Chad, though I still recommend spending the additional costs listed above.
[Additional costs: Buy stevenjw a sammich for compiling this 'crib note' summary of how its done!! hear hear!]
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post #21455 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 02:08 PM
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Hi Javs,
Thanks for giving your settings for all your equipment!
I am completely new to this game and have been putting together a theatre setup.
I guess most of my questions revolve around the Panasonic 900 player and the settings used for 4k movies and HDR.
I currently have:
JVC DLA-X550RB Projector
Denon AVR-X4300H Receiver
Panasonic 900 4K blu ray player
Bell satellite 9400
Daylight 1.1 106" screen

My cables are Monster cable Black Platinum Ultra HD 2-5 ft cables for interconnect and 1-35 ft cable for AVR-Projector.

Knowing basically nothing about the set up, If someone would "walk" me through the video setup with their recommended settings
it would be great. I think I have the audio thing down (bitstream etc for my atmos speaker etc)

I have been to the JVC web to look at their recommended HDR settings wiht Gamma D and the manual way to do it, but have not downloaded their setup as yet (will later)
Any suggestions would be great!

Last edited by dicksop; 02-21-2017 at 02:43 PM. Reason: deleting previous post
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post #21456 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
At the moment I'm using JVC-1100-800-4000, JVC 0/0, Panny +4 (B)/-1 (C). HDMI standard of course, YCC 12bits 4:4:4 HDR out of the Panny.
One question, if you use a brightness target 1100, do you calibrate whites using 1100 as clipping value?

I´m using 675-475-4000 which value have I to use as clipping value to calibrate whites ... 675 or 1100?
Thanks

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post #21457 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD_666 View Post
One question, if you use a brightness target 1100, do you calibrate whites using 1100 as clipping value?

I´m using 675-475-4000 which value have I to useas clipping value to calibrate whites ... 675 or 1100?
Thanks
Neither

The filename ending in 4000 (if you've followed my standard as that's not one of my curves) means that the curve hard clips at 4000nits, so contrast should be set to resolve up to 4000nits It's a universal curve. You won't gain anything by setting contrast to resolve lower than that for titles mastered to lower values. If you really want to, you have to select a curve ending in 1000 or 1100 and go through the hassle of selecting the correct curve for each title and setting contrast for the new clipping point), otherwise you'll be clipping highlights.

I only use universal curves as I don't find the minimal increase in contrast/brightness worth the hassle of having to switch to curves optimized for 1000-1100nits mastered titles (curves ending in 1000 or 1100).

The target (peak brightness) is only used in conjunction with reference white to determine the multiplier. You shouldn't use that value as a clipping point to set contrast.
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post #21458 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dicksop View Post
Hi Javs,
Thanks for giving your settings for all your equipment!
I am completely new to this game and have been putting together a theatre setup.
I guess most of my questions revolve around the Panasonic 900 player and the settings used for 4k movies and HDR.
I currently have:
JVC DLA-X550RB Projector
Denon AVR-X4300H Receiver
Panasonic 900 4K blu ray player
Bell satellite 9400
Daylight 1.1 106" screen

My cables are Monster cable Black Platinum Ultra HD 2-5 ft cables for interconnect and 1-35 ft cable for AVR-Projector.

Knowing basically nothing about the set up, If someone would "walk" me through the video setup with their recommended settings
it would be great. I think I have the audio thing down (bitstream etc for my atmos speaker etc)

I have been to the JVC web to look at their recommended HDR settings wiht Gamma D and the manual way to do it, but have not downloaded their setup as yet (will later)
Any suggestions would be great!
Hi, could you please edit your post, and remove all the images you quoted. There is no need to keep all my images there. It very quickly clogs up the thread.

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post #21459 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Neither

The filename ending in 4000 (if you've followed my standard as that's not one of my curves) means that the curve hard clips at 4000nits, so contrast should be set to resolve up to 4000nits It's a universal curve. You won't gain anything by setting contrast to resolve lower than that for titles mastered to lower values. If you really want to, you have to select a curve ending in 1000 or 1100 and go through the hassle of selecting the correct curve for each title and setting contrast for the new clipping point), otherwise you'll be clipping highlights.

I only use universal curves as I don't find the minimal increase in contrast/brightness worth the hassle of having to switch to curves optimized for 1000-1100nits mastered titles (curves ending in 1000 or 1100).

The target (peak brightness) is only used in conjunction with reference white to determine the multiplier. You shouldn't use that value as a clipping point to set contrast.
If I use a contrast level such that the targets clip to 4000 ... would not a dark image remain?
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post #21460 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
/rant this is what really frustrates me about the current state of remotes. I'm quite technical and more than capable of programming my own remotes. It's not that I'm cheap, or that I want to deprive great dealers of income, but I just really don't want to have to be tied to a dealer every time I want to change something in my theater. I don't want to have to rely on a dealer less familiar with my equipment than I am. I'd love to upgrade my MX880 to something with IP control, but URC, in their infinite wisdom has prohibited dealers from sharing the Total Control software with end users

Same goes for calibration, I was looking at some new meters, and the price is kind of scary, and I read the great reports of Chad B's service... But then I have the same thought, I don't want to be on someone else's schedule for getting the most out of my system...

/rant
I'll be in Mason City for an audio/video calibration as soon as the owner is finished with his theater - probably early summer. I've had enough inquiries from the Cedar Rapids/Iowa City area that maybe I should come down that way for a couple of days. I typically just calibrate in the Omaha, Des Moines, or Kansas City areas unless I fly directly to a customer.

If you want to move to IP control, consider going with the Harmony Elite or Harmony Hub.

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post #21461 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
...There is no way to set the roku ultra to 24p. So I'm wondering if there any other media players that do 2160p24 (for amazon prime).
Thanks
You can probably get a really good deal on a Samsung K8500 UHD player. It plays both Amazon and Netflix at 4K24 4:4:4 10-bit. It also plays a few 4K60 Netflix series; those are mostly produced in the UK.

Like I mentioned last night; I have my Linker disabling HDR injection for Amazon Video 4K HDR content played from the Samsung player. Then with one of the new custom gammas, the picture quality is outstanding.

No HDR for Netflix though.
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post #21462 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 03:17 PM
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Can anyone comment on whether the measuring of white/black clipping points for HDR needs to be done differently than with SDR patterns? See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50937177 . I'm going to do some testing tonight and want to make certain my black level is set correctly and that I have not raised the black floor (even though it does not appear I have done so) since Manni said that anything over +1 does (but Ray's patterns say I can go up to +6 without raising the black floor).

Also I have an idea - just as a test I am going to shrink my 140" wide screen down (zoom) as small as possible and then redo white/black clipping and watch some HDR with that extra brightness and see how much of a difference it makes to have some overhead brightness. Seems like a good idea for someone like me who has never seen "real" HDR on a projector before, to know whether my HDR at 140" wide actually looks like real HDR or not?
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post #21463 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hi, could you please edit your post, and remove all the images you quoted. There is no need to keep all my images there. It very quickly clogs up the thread.

My settings are not going to work for your new model JVC... Please don't use them for HDR. You should have good out of the box HDR on your projector.
No exactly what I was looking for...But Ii will research stuff out.
Thanks
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post #21464 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 03:26 PM
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No exactly what I was looking for...But Ii will research stuff out.
Thanks
Wait hold on. My mistake. Your unit is the same generation as these in this thread. I was thinking for a second you had the X570R.

So, yes, you can follow my HDR guide until you feel comfortable jumping into the HDR that all the folks here are talking about right now.

Otherwise your starting place for the entire projector setup is here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post39521362

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post #21465 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Wait hold on. My mistake. Your unit is the same generation as these in this thread. I was thinking for a second you had the X570R.

So, yes, you can follow my HDR guide until you feel comfortable jumping into the HDR that all the folks here are talking about right now.

Otherwise your starting place for the entire projector setup is here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post39521362
Any one know if there is an OFFICIAL JVC DLA-X550RB SITE?
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post #21466 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 04:23 PM
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Any one know if there is an OFFICIAL JVC DLA-X550RB SITE?
What are you hoping to find there?

It will be on the product pages of any of the JVC main websites.

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post #21467 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
1. When people say you need at least 100 nits for HDR - measured under what conditions exactly? I know I'm not anywhere closer to that, and more like half of that. But I do want to measure to know exactly where I am at. But how is this measured? Does the PJ need to be in HDR mode, or can I just display a 100% white field/window non-HDR but with my HDR mode engaged and Manni's custom HDR gamma curve on? If it does need to be in HDR mode, where can I find a 100% pattern WITH HDR enabled? I think the white field patterns on Ray's disc are in non-HDR mode?

2. Similar question for checking black levels... Ted's barrel and other such patterns are exceptional for checking black levels. Can I bring up this pattern in non-HDR mode, but with my HDR custom gamma selected and check the black levels this way? Or does it have to be done with the patterns output by the UB900 in HDR mode? If so, what is a good way to display an all black full field 0% pattern so I can use the hide/unhide check? I don't think I can do this with Ray's patterns and don't know what other HDR patterns I can use for this with the UB900 outputting HDR.

3. Can someone explain the difference between setting contrast/brightness in the JVC vs the UB900? Manni said that raising brightness above +1 in the JVC menu raises his black floor. In my setup (with standard HDMI) I can raise the brightness control in the JVC to +6 which lights up bar 68 in Ray's pattern, but bar 64 *APPEARS* to not brighten. I say "appears" because I am judging by eye, and standing at the screen I can't notice any change in bar 64 from brightness 1-6 in the JVC menu, whereas brightness +7 I see bar 64 light up. Is this a valid test or might I be raising the black floor slightly without realizing it? I would like to confirm this by measuring black 0% full field out of the pj lens. I can easily do this if this does not require an HDR pattern that's 0% full field black (per question #2). If it does then I need to know where to get one.

Thanks guys!
Found this on the Calman Forum might help you out.

Stacey Spears wrote:
This sounds like a tone mapping problem with your projector. Note that HDR projection is not really a thing, which is why you are having trouble.

Lupin 3rd wrote:
Someone tells that only discs coded to 10'000nits uses all 1024 levels .... is it real? the other do not use all 1024 levels.
Is there any document that list all the coding mode and levels lost?


Yes it is real. Nothing would use 1024 levels though as 64-940 is the range that is used. 940 is 10,000 nits. Content is being mastered at 1,000 and 4,000 nits. 1,000 nits on the Sony BVM X300 and up to 4,000 nits on a Dolby Pulsar. The max code value used it based on the max nit level.

Just for your info:
100 nits is code value 509.
1,000 nits is code value 722.
4,000 nits is code value 854.

The majority of the picture information is under 100 nits or 77-509. Notice I use 77 instead of 64, this is because black on the mastering display has been 0.005 nits and not 0 nits. 0.005 is code value 77.

In the end, the display tone mapping algorithm handles the differences. You calibrate your display to its max capability. Then the display handles the rest. You don't adjust brightness or contrast to fix the content. Some displays have good tone mapping and some have poor tone mapping. I have a Sony Z9D and it has great tone mapping. The content has HDR metadata associated with it. This data should be passed to the display so it can know how to deal with the different mastering levels. This is not something you will do in calibration. You don't want to calibrate per disc anyway, that would be a nightmare.
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post #21468 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 05:13 PM
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Gamma droop.

Folks talk about how these projectors have gamma drift over time, and how the autocal system is great for addressing that.

Question: What are the visual symptoms that gamma has drifted?

Loss of shadow detail?
Gray blacks?
Midtones getting darker?
Or lighter?
Highlights looking dull?
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post #21469 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Gamma droop.

Folks talk about how these projectors have gamma drift over time, and how the autocal system is great for addressing that.

Question: What are the visual symptoms that gamma has drifted?

Loss of shadow detail?
Gray blacks?
Midtones getting darker?
Or lighter?
Highlights looking dull?
It is so mild that it requires a measurement to see. If you can physically see it, you deserve a medal!

Only the Sony's were so bleeding obvious I knew something was wrong.
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post #21470 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 05:20 PM
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Few questions just before I go diving into this whole HDR thing with my X750R:

1. If one wanted not to avoid using high lamp, is using a custom HDR gamma curve (or making one) still worth it over going the SDR BT2020 route?
(throw = 15'; 138" scope screen image; 1.3 true gain)

2. I have an Oppo 203: does the Linker for enabling DI in HDR still work for me?

3. Can I create my own curve if I only have HCFR (and an i1d2 and Spyder 5)?
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post #21471 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Excellent summary for those that appear to have recently started posting in this thread. My added two cents / advice would be this:

If your screen size is too big, don't expect HDR to work well. It was really designed for displays. I don't ever expect my projector to look as good as my OLED with HDR, or anything for that matter, but I use the projector a lot more because it's bigger. And in my bat-cave, it's bright enough for BDs and some improvements from HDR using a 136" 2.35:1 1.1 gain screen. I'd get more benefits if my screen was smaller or projector was brighter and a real 4K with great lens. It is what it is and I'm just looking to get HDR to look as good as it can right now. A future projector upgrade when the price is right will change that side of the equation.
Great post, but I do have one thing I disagree with, and that's the bold part. I firmly believe that HDR can work well on projectors, of course it won't look like an OLED or flat panel, but that's not the point. As noted, most content in an HDR picture is mastered at less than 100 nits, in other words the same as Blu-ray's and other SD content, this is what Carbon calls "MTO" or "Most Typical Objects" content. Everything above 100 nits is specular highlights. Now with the proper gamma curve (which we can now generate and upload), we can reduce the brightness of MTO content, just like we do with SDR/Blu-ray, and then we can use whatever brightness is left, for those specular highlights. Of course the less brightness you have, the more you have to compress things, but it can still look good.

The key thing to remember is, if we want to enjoy the benefits of UHD Blu-ray, WCG, better encoding, etc, then we have to deal with HDR, there's no off switch for HDR on UHD Blu-ray. The only question is, does an external device like the Panasonic or Oppo do a better job converting HDR to SDR with their "one size fits all" approach*, or can we do a better job with a custom calibration designed just for our specific configurations. I'm betting on the later.

*I realize Panasonic and Oppo have sliders to adjust their conversion, but we've found that if you reduce the slider on the Panasonic far enough to resolve up to 4000 nits, the rest of the image often gets too dark. We can generate curves that don't have that problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I'll be in Mason City for an audio/video calibration as soon as the owner is finished with his theater - probably early summer. I've had enough inquiries from the Cedar Rapids/Iowa City area that maybe I should come down that way for a couple of days. I typically just calibrate in the Omaha, Des Moines, or Kansas City areas unless I fly directly to a customer.

If you want to move to IP control, consider going with the Harmony Elite or Harmony Hub.
Thanks for the offer, I think I'm set for calibration

As for Harmony, lets just say they're not a good fit for me, I really don't like the hardware or the programming interface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Can anyone comment on whether the measuring of white/black clipping points for HDR needs to be done differently than with SDR patterns? See https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50937177 . I'm going to do some testing tonight and want to make certain my black level is set correctly and that I have not raised the black floor (even though it does not appear I have done so) since Manni said that anything over +1 does (but Ray's patterns say I can go up to +6 without raising the black floor).
To measure brightness, just put up a 100% white pattern and measure it. Doesn't matter if it's an HDR or SDR pattern, or if you're in HDR or SDR mode, you just want to make sure you're in the same lamp mode and lens aperture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Few questions just before I go diving into this whole HDR thing with my X750R:

1. If one wanted not to avoid using high lamp, is using a custom HDR gamma curve (or making one) still worth it over going the SDR BT2020 route?
(throw = 15'; 138" scope screen image; 1.3 true gain)
I'd definitely try it, that's really the only way to know which one you prefer.

Quote:
2. I have an Oppo 203: does the Linker for enabling DI in HDR still work for me?
Yup.

Quote:
3. Can I create my own curve if I only have HCFR (and an i1d2 and Spyder 5)?
If it has an HDR10 target curve, or if it allows you to do a custom curve. Or I suppose you could do it the hard way and measure things by hand.
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post #21472 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Gamma droop.

Folks talk about how these projectors have gamma drift over time, and how the autocal system is great for addressing that.

Question: What are the visual symptoms that gamma has drifted?

Loss of shadow detail?
Gray blacks?
Midtones getting darker?
Or lighter?
Highlights looking dull?
Best way to describe it is that when the gamma droop is significant it can create a more washed out looking, less contrasty looking image, particular in brighter scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
It is so mild that it requires a measurement to see. If you can physically see it, you deserve a medal!

Only the Sony's were so bleeding obvious I knew something was wrong.
Javs - It depends what projector you are talking about. I can't speak for the more recent generations of the JVC line, but back in the RS20 days the droop could be like 1.8 instead of 2.3 in the 85-95% range and could look really poor. Perhaps with these new generations they don't get that bad. But nonetheless it is super valuable that JVC provided a great (if not confusing) tool to use to auto correct the droop from time to time, even if not as significant as before (not sure about that).
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post #21473 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Depending on the screen and the brightness of the image, you can easily have shimmer with a 0.8 gain screen. it will be easier to see when the scene is white clouds.
Thanks Mike! I've got a Seymour AV screen with glacier gray. I do in fact see it in white clouds (Arrival Blu-Ray). I don't have my pj professionally calibrated yet but I'm assuming that one of the solutions would be to turn down the brightness?
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post #21474 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Now with the latest v19 firmware for the Linker, one can avoid JVC's automatic selection of GammaD and regain use of the DI with HDR. This is where several of us are at this point in our quest for excellent HDR from our JVCs. We're sill trying to figure out the best placement and EDID settings for this new hardware in our chain. If you've made it this far, then have a little more patience while the early adopter bleed some more, working out the kinks with the Linker. [Additional costs: $199 for the Linker]
Just an update to this comment, I'm not suggesting that everyone rush out and buy a Linker. I'm having several issues getting it to work correctly in my setup. I think CJ is too. It may be an issue with how it works with the Oppo (vs. the Panny), but I'm finding it also frustrating as it affects my HTPC too. I suggest following our posts in the Linker thread. That's where I'll be addressing issues. For me, the jury is still out with this piece of hardware. I'm not ready to send it back, but I'm also not happy with it either.
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post #21475 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Javs - It depends what projector you are talking about. I can't speak for the more recent generations of the JVC line, but back in the RS20 days the droop could be like 1.8 instead of 2.3 in the 85-95% range and could look really poor. Perhaps with these new generations they don't get that bad. But nonetheless it is super valuable that JVC provided a great (if not confusing) tool to use to auto correct the droop from time to time, even if not as significant as before (not sure about that).
I know all about it, my Sony 300ES was very clearly wrong over time.

My JVC though, was extremely mild only a very small amount and only on the top end, I didnt see it until I did my regular 250 hour check-up, did a manual 12pt correction and it was perfect again. And it pretty much stayed that way after.

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post #21476 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
OK, so I put a Sony UHD BD Disc in my Philips BDP7501, went to the Top Menu, hit 7 6 6 9, and a series of patterns then came up.

I checked "info" on the Phillips Player, the Marantz 7010 Receiver, and my RS400 Projector, and they all indicated that all devices were receiving 4k/HDR.

The pattern section showed a total time of around 3 minutes 36 seconds or thereabouts. The majority of the patterns displayed in the beginning were various color patches in the center of the screen. Not sure what, if anything, to do with these. I'm assuming my JVC Autocal has me squared away here.

Lastly were what I assume are the clipping patterns, to be used in setting BR and CR to the proper levels.

There was one Dark pattern, with bands labeled:
0.000
0.001
0.005
0.010
0.100
1.000
5.000
10.000

There were then three different screens of White patterns, with bands labeled:
100-1000
1000-2000
2000-10000

So which are the proper dark bands and white bands to use to properly setting BR and CR? Where is the proper cut-off point between seeing and not seeing the line between the respective dark and light bands?

Thanks.

Don
Just catching up after working on my new sofas and getting the Buttkickers installed but if this hasn't been answered Don then shoot for .005-.10 (depending on your "batness of cave") and clip around 1200 to start (or 4,000 if using Gamma M)

Still have some work to do but all in all pretty happy with these dark slate grey Flexsteel sofas in the room...
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post #21477 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Just catching up after working on my new sofas and getting the Buttkickers installed but if this hasn't been answered Don then shoot for .005-.10 (depending on your "batness of cave") and clip around 1200 to start (or 4,000 if using Gamma M)

Still have some work to do but all in all pretty happy with these dark slate grey Flexsteel sofas in the room...
Thanks, Kevin.

I had a look at the PDF manual for the RM patterns earlier today, and found bands 64 and 68 labeled as 0% and 0.5%. He recommends adjusting until Bar 68 (0.5%, or 0.005) is just barely seen to be flashing, so that's where I tried to set it tonight. Goes right along with what you said as well - always good to get confirmation, so thanks!

And since I'm trying out Manni's JVC-600-400-4000 Curve, I also tried to clip at 4000, so it's all good there.

The Sony patterns, unfortunately, do not flash at all, and only last a few seconds each. So I had to hit pause to adjust. And from the reading I've done, the flashing is an important aid to setting things properly, so I'm likely at a bit of a disadvantage there.

Until Philips updates its firmware to read RM's files with HEVC, I'll have to make do with what I have.

But, I adjusted my settings, and watched some of The Shallows, and Angry Birds, trying to compare HDR with SDR/2020 with the Integral. Both looked quite good, with no obvious 'winner' so I'm not sure where I go from here.

I don't have a light meter to measure my actual maximum brightness (I did JVC Autocal with the Spyder, but no other meter to do brightness). I have the RS400, a 160" diagonal 2.35:1 screen with 1.3 gain (Screen Innovations Solar White), 18' throw distance. Manni would likely say that those specs would limit me to SDR/2020, and he may be right.

I would really need to get out my DSLR and Tripod to try and make some rigorous, objective comparisons, to see if HDR is worth it for me, but haven't done that just yet.

Thanks for the reply and follow-up.

Don
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post #21478 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
It won't grab an IP for me when I do that. Hence why I worry the port might be buggered?
FWIW - mine wouldn't either until Manni reminded me you can't be using any IP control software (like iRule or Roomie etc...), when trying to use AutoCal.

Oh and your ?? about the Oppo yesterday... it's not "glitchy" at all (had a few hiccups on some titles & 3D but nothing after the new FW), just that I wish at the very least they could have fixed the black floor issue for SDR on this go round.

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post #21479 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Again, I double checked, that's a negative here. The iris closes fully (High lamp, iris fully open), at least as fully as it ever did. As you know, it never fully closes. That's one of the first things I checked.

I have to raise brightness to +8 in the Panny to make it stop in half open position. Even at +7, it still closes fully.

Are you sure you're not raising the black floor one way or the other? Did you do the hide test or measure black?

Anything above +1 for brightness on the JVC WILL raise the black floor, so please don't use more than +1 for brightness on the JVC when testing this. Only use the Panny.

If you raise the black floor then it's normal that the iris won't close fully, because there will be content as far as the DI is concerned. The iris will only close fully if there is no content (full black) for long enough. Some fade to black are too short for the iris to close fully.

Wow... this a really great (and important), takeaway on this Manni (thx). Get your black floor set properly or the Linker don't mean/do sheet for us!

(Stranger - you should add that part to your excellent bullet point overview!).

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post #21480 of 31985 Old 02-21-2017, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Just an update to this comment, I'm not suggesting that everyone rush out and buy a Linker. I'm having several issues getting it to work correctly in my setup. I think CJ is too. It may be an issue with how it works with the Oppo (vs. the Panny), but I'm finding it also frustrating as it affects my HTPC too. I suggest following our posts in the Linker thread. That's where I'll be addressing issues. For me, the jury is still out with this piece of hardware. I'm not ready to send it back, but I'm also not happy with it either.
Yes I am still having issues with the Linker and my Oppo.

I believe I found the cause of the purple tinted monochromatic picture that would usually happen at the start of disc playback. If I set custom color space of 4:2:2 I could no longer reproduce the purple issue. It seems to only occur with color space 4:4:4. I even reproduced the problem when I connected the Linker directly to my RS500 and not through the Denon AVR. I reported this to HDFury.

I resolved the Linker Disconnected errors by reloading the firmware to the Linker. The Linker did not report an error when I loaded it the first time but reloading seems to have addressed that issue.

Now that I resolved the monochromatic picture issue I have moved the Linker between the Oppo and AVR sending 4:2:2. That works the best so far. I still use EDID 2.

I now have my Samsung K8500 connected to the other Linker input so I can watch disabled HDR injection from Amazon Video 4K HDR content.

I cleared out the brightness and contrast settings I had in the RS500 for the JVC-800-600-4000 and JVC-600-400-4000 gammas and used the Masciola patterns to set the values in the Oppo instead. Both gammas ended up with the same settings in the Oppo which is convenient. Brightness +3 and Contrast -2 compared to the previous JVC values of +7 / -3. I am liking what I see with the JVC-800-600-4000 curve. The explosions and gun fire during the early scene in Jupiter where Mila Kunis is carried out the window were eye-searing.

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Last edited by claw; 02-21-2017 at 09:07 PM.
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