Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 724 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21691 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
EOTF is "Electro-Optical Transfer Function", it's the function/curve defines how to map digital codes (electro) to physical brightnesses (optical). A gamma curve is one specific EOTF, the HDR PQ (ST.2084) curve is another.

So, the normal case is the player just sends HDR content (coded with the HDR EOTF, the ST.2084 PQ curve) directly to the display and it deals with it.

If you use something to force Dynamic Range Conversion, then the player maps that HDR content to an SDR EOTF, assumingly a power gamma or BT.1886 curve. This way a display that only understands SDR content will be able to handle it correctly.

In either case, HDR content on the disc needs to be mapped to physical brightness values, it's just a question of how/where that all gets done.

"Native HDR" is like this
Disc -> Player -> Display (HDR EOTF) -> screen

"SDR+Rec.2020" is like this:
Disc -> Player (HDR -> SDR Conversion) -> Display (SDR EOTF) -> screen

So there's a double conversion going on with SDR+Rec.2020, which if the display does a bad job with it's HDR EOTF (Gamma D) then that's preferable, but if the display has a good native EOTF, well that's a different story.



Basically the custom gamma curves are HDR EOTFs that we've created/uploaded to the projector. They're not exactly the ST.2084 EOTF, but they're based on it.



That is exactly the question/issue, what does a better job, Panasonic, or home brew custom JVC curve. I think asking if HDR or SDR is better for a display under "x" nits is the wrong question, we're watching HDR content either way (UHD Blu-ray), it's a question of who does the mapping better.

Now for streaming, that's a different question, there the question is, is HDR better or should we watch the SDR version instead, but there it's not the player doing a conversion, it's (most likely) a completely different stream/master.



Oh, absolutely. But lets use real numbers. My SDR config is calibrated for about 14-16fL, or right about 50 nits, I do that in low lamp, aperture = -10. When I made my custom gamma curve (HDR EOTF), I opened everything up and flipped to high lamp, that netted me about 125 nits. So my HDR preset is over twice as bright (peak white) as my SDR preset, that means I've got quite a lot of headroom for highlights, while allowing reference white to be exactly the same.
What a very thorough and useful post - many thanks! It confirms (I think) that I was approaching this in a somewhat correct manner, but provides a better foundation for really understanding what's going on. This will be very helpful to me in thinking through this, and implementing it in my setup.

Thanks!

Don

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post #21692 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
"SDR+Rec.2020" is like this:
Disc -> Player (HDR -> SDR Conversion) -> Display (SDR EOTF) -> screen

So there's a double conversion going on with SDR+Rec.2020, which if the display does a bad job with it's HDR EOTF (Gamma D) then that's preferable, but if the display has a good native EOTF, well that's a different story...
Great explanation. I think we all pretty much agree that the Gamma D implementation leaves a lot to be desired. Its understandable, considering JVC made one curve that I imagine is designed to be a decent compromise, but in practice is not. So now that we have the ability to make our own custom gamma for HDR, and have the ability to get the dynamic iris back, it seems like a no-brainer to us our own curve rather than a static SDR conversion with a slider as the only "control". The only question I suppose for folks is whether the learning curve and time to make and or import your own curve is worth it to you, and whether the $200 for the Linker is worth it. In my case the answer to both of those is Yes.

Based on your explanation I now understand better why HDR is more ideal in my case even for 50 nits compared to the SDR conversion, particularly for 4000 nit masters. Just don't ask me to try and explain it to anyone.

Seems the only remaining subject we need to cover is the theory behind the inputs and what types of tweaks/parameters are best under which circumstance for use with Arve's tool, so that we can generate the optimal gamma curve. At a minimum I am going to make a curve based on Manni's 600-400-4000 so that it has 256 steps vs the 11 that I imported. Tho according to Manni that may not make any visible difference.
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post #21693 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 12:38 PM
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I put about 8 hours on my new rs500 last night. It really is a nice upgrade from my pervious jvc 4910. A few questions, it the projector supposed to make noise when you change viewing modes? it has a semi loud bang when switching between viewing modes. My 4910 was silent. My 2 current 30 ft hdmi cables are not suficient I have a monoprice redmere cable that would not display anything except my cable box. It worked fine on the 4910 nothing just black. At first i thought the pj was broken. I switched to my other dlp projectors twisted veins 30 ft cable and immediately got a picture however it has sparkles on black backgrounds. Not on everything and not all the time. i just ordered this cable

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

I will try it tonight if this does not work i would like suggestions on what cable to try next. When i put more hours on it i will dive into the calibration end of things.

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post #21694 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post
I put about 8 hours on my new rs500 last night. It really is a nice upgrade from my pervious jvc 4910. A few questions, it the projector supposed to make noise when you change viewing modes? it has a semi loud bang when switching between viewing modes. My 4910 was silent. My 2 current 30 ft hdmi cables are not suficient I have a monoprice redmere cable that would not display anything except my cable box. It worked fine on the 4910 nothing just black. At first i thought the pj was broken. I switched to my other dlp projectors twisted veins 30 ft cable and immediately got a picture however it has sparkles on black backgrounds. Not on everything and not all the time. i just ordered this cable

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1

I will try it tonight if this does not work i would like suggestions on what cable to try next. When i put more hours on it i will dive into the calibration end of things.
The "snap" u r hearing is the color filter getting in place for bt2020...completely normal
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post #21695 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post
A few questions, it the projector supposed to make noise when you change viewing modes? it has a semi loud bang when switching between viewing modes. My 4910 was silent.
Yep. Thats the color filter slamming into place. Jarring I agree. Some color modes use it, some don't.

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post #21696 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 12:58 PM
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Thanks to both of you for that info. I thought that was why it makes the noise. Can anyone tell me what the latest firmware is

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post #21697 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dan webster View Post
thanks to both of you for that info. I thought that was why it makes the noise. Can anyone tell me what the latest firmware is
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post #21698 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 05:17 PM
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Hello everyone. Wow. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread hits a thousand pages. Great to see so much engagement on these units.

Anyway, I have a question. I turned on my projector today and the noise of the lens cover opening up sounded a bit different, like having a very faint ticking in addition to the sound of the launch. It isn't squeaking and the door opens and closes fine. But I was wondering whether this was just a normal sound after break-in use?
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post #21699 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Glad it's working better for you, but I have the Integral and the Linker in the chain and the sync times are no longer than without. Have you disabled autoswitch in both units? Also I use custom EDIDs to force the resolution I want (UHD or 1080p) to that might help. I use EDID 2 or 8 for UHD HDR and EDID 20 to force 1080p 4:4:4 on the HTPC. My sync times are 10-15 sec max, often shorter, which I agree is long enough.
I only have the Linker. If autoswitch is the default, then it's disabled. I'll look in a little while. I tried EDID 2 and 18 and had issues. I haven't tried 8, but will give it a shot and see if it helps or hurts. I don't have the Panny and suspect that the Oppo is adding to the equation even though I avoid using Auto on it. The HDFury folks are getting in an Oppo 203 soon and will work things out in time. They're leaning towards EDID issues with the Oppo that are causing audio, tint, and other issues. We'll see what they come up with once they have one in-house to troubleshoot together with the Linker. Right now, SINK works well with the Oppo, just not the HTPC and there's longer handshaking times.

I prefer to use [email protected] 4:2:2 12-bit on my HTPC since that resolution eliminates all delays when using JRiver with MadVR to scale to 4K based on source. I've been down that road and have settled for a 4K/UHD resolution with 200% DPI desktop. It has worked great with zero issues until the Linker. They already have a solution for it in their Integral and will be adding something to correct what I'm seeing in the next firmware release. BTW, I can't select 4:4:4 because that results in only 8-bit whereas 4:2:2 allows 12-bit. Must be some limitation from my AMD Radeon R9 200 series card/software.

I'm looking to set and forget my Linker with HDR Disabled, so will go with whatever allows for that. SINK seems to be working for now. I'll give EDID 8 a shot and wait for FW 0.20 and look at the autoswitch setting. Thanks!

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post #21700 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 09:43 PM
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So I was having trouble finding an HDMI cable that was 25ft or longer and could pass the full 18Gbps signal from a Roku Ultra and Oppo 203 thourgh a Marantz 7702mkii to the JVC RS500. From some recommendations here, I picked up a 25ft Bluejean Cables Series 1. Well, it didn't work, at least not completely. I do appreciate the feedback though helping me select the cable.

The Oppo 203 was fine and so was the Roku, initially. What I find ironic is that the Roku had the highest signal demand, even over the Oppo 203. When I set the Roku to 4k HDR, Amazon worked fine but Netflix did not. I didn't even catch it for a couple weeks as I had been busy and wasn't watching much and nothing on Netflix. Anyways, the HDMI signal wouldn't lock and it kept showing a black screen with green lines all over it. Dead give away from other reports I've seen that it was the HDMI cable.

I have a couple days before the return window closes but I'm not sure I want to send it back and pay hundreds of dollars for a fiber cable. I don't know if streaming HDR is worth it. Maybe if prices come down on fiber. But I digress, and that brings me to my main point for posting...

I'm going to be hanging up my old Da-Lite HCHP 10'W scope screen. It's smaller at around 100" in 16:9 then what I currently projecting, ~145", but about the same size in 2.35:1. It will also be hung about 2ft closer so some compensation from decreased size but not as much viewing angle.

I was wondering if there was any posts made with people sharing their updated settings for Bt. 709, HDR, Rec. 202, etc..? And how many custom profiles should I go for?

Thanks!
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post #21701 of 31985 Old 02-24-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
So I was having trouble finding an HDMI cable that was 25ft or longer and could pass the full 18Gbps signal from a Roku Ultra and Oppo 203 thourgh a Marantz 7702mkii to the JVC RS500. From some recommendations here, I picked up a 25ft Bluejean Cables Series 1. Well, it didn't work, at least not completely. I do appreciate the feedback though helping me select the cable.

The Oppo 203 was fine and so was the Roku, initially. What I find ironic is that the Roku had the highest signal demand, even over the Oppo 203. When I set the Roku to 4k HDR, Amazon worked fine but Netflix did not. I didn't even catch it for a couple weeks as I had been busy and wasn't watching much and nothing on Netflix. Anyways, the HDMI signal wouldn't lock and it kept showing a black screen with green lines all over it. Dead give away from other reports I've seen that it was the HDMI cable.

I have a couple days before the return window closes but I'm not sure I want to send it back and pay hundreds of dollars for a fiber cable. I don't know if streaming HDR is worth it. Maybe if prices come down on fiber. But I digress, and that brings me to my main point for posting...

I'm going to be hanging up my old Da-Lite HCHP 10'W scope screen. It's smaller at around 100" in 16:9 then what I currently projecting, ~145", but about the same size in 2.35:1. It will also be hung about 2ft closer so some compensation from decreased size but not as much viewing angle.

I was wondering if there was any posts made with people sharing their updated settings for Bt. 709, HDR, Rec. 202, etc..? And how many custom profiles should I go for?

Thanks!

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post #21702 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I only have the Linker. If autoswitch is the default, then it's disabled. I'll look in a little while. I tried EDID 2 and 18 and had issues. I haven't tried 8, but will give it a shot and see if it helps or hurts. I don't have the Panny and suspect that the Oppo is adding to the equation even though I avoid using Auto on it. The HDFury folks are getting in an Oppo 203 soon and will work things out in time. They're leaning towards EDID issues with the Oppo that are causing audio, tint, and other issues. We'll see what they come up with once they have one in-house to troubleshoot together with the Linker. Right now, SINK works well with the Oppo, just not the HTPC and there's longer handshaking times.

I prefer to use [email protected] 4:2:2 12-bit on my HTPC since that resolution eliminates all delays when using JRiver with MadVR to scale to 4K based on source. I've been down that road and have settled for a 4K/UHD resolution with 200% DPI desktop. It has worked great with zero issues until the Linker. They already have a solution for it in their Integral and will be adding something to correct what I'm seeing in the next firmware release. BTW, I can't select 4:4:4 because that results in only 8-bit whereas 4:2:2 allows 12-bit. Must be some limitation from my AMD Radeon R9 200 series card/software.

I'm looking to set and forget my Linker with HDR Disabled, so will go with whatever allows for that. SINK seems to be working for now. I'll give EDID 8 a shot and wait for FW 0.20 and look at the autoswitch setting. Thanks!
The reason why I use 1080p 4:4:4 on the HTPC is to let MadVR do the chroma upscaling for the content I watch from the HTPC, which is SD/HD, as I don't have any UHD content on the HTPC apart from a few demo clips. My HD7870 isn't powerful enough to handle UHD upscaling of SD/HD content well so I'm waiting for Vega 10 (tried an RX480, wasn't working well enough at the time).

The limitation to 8bits in 4K / 4:4:4 is an HDMI 2.0 limitation, you can't get above 8bits in UHD 4:4:4 at 60p (it's fine at 24p though), even with 18Gb/s. You can go up to 12bits in 4:2:2, but then MadVR only does half the chroma upscaling (4:2:0 to 4:2:2), the JVC does the other half (4:2:2 to 4:4:4). That's the other reason why I stick to 1080p for now, as I want MadVR to do the full chroma upscaling on my DVDs (and a few blurays) at 50/60p without having to change resolution all the time.

The PQ improvements when having MadVR upscaling to 4K is probably worth the chroma upscaling compromise with a more powerful GPU, but it's not an option with mine, so I let the PJ/e-shift do this. That's also one of the reasons why ideally I want an HDMI 2.1 GPU (and display) with enough bandwidth to handle UHD 4:4:4 12bits (even 10bits would be fine) at up to 60p.

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post #21703 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 02:29 AM
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Jvc x950 and Linker

Hi Folks...

I've been running my pj with the Integral and Panni...now that we have a working implementation of hdr, is there any reason to have the Integral in the chain? Also I been watching hdr a lot with the Manni curve 200-1200-4000 and last night I popped in a plain old 1080p disc and wow the blacks with the DI are amazing...if there is no need for an Integral anymore, if I get a Linker, should I expect the exact same type of DI blacks I get with 1080p and the DI. With HDR, the DI and the Linker and do I now ditch the Integral? Thanks folks

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post #21704 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 04:40 AM
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I've had some time to mull over the replies I received on my post wanting to better understand the benefits of watching HDR content with the Custom Curve approach pioneered by Manni01, Arve, and others, vs the "SDR/BT2020 approach using the HDFury Integral. The fact that the available dynamic range is our Projectors is smaller (I used the arbitrary range of 0-100 for the sake of the discussion) than the range of what HDR actually contains (0-200 was my arbitrary figure) is the source of the conundrum.

These are the pertinent and helpful replies (with the bolding mine for emphasis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
There are a few benefits to sticking with HDR.

One is that you have a higher bit depth and number of steps between black and white. Another is that the grading for HDR content takes the wider dynamic range into account, so you are making better use of the full range of the projector. Yes, SDR might have the same black point and white point, if you want to set things up that way, but it won't have been graded for the larger dynamic range that one gets (even with our limited front projection devices we still have the potential for far more dynamic range than SDR content is graded for) and the nuances possible when processing HDR will be lost in SDR.
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The first thing that's very, very important to understand, is that content is either HDR or it's not. Ultra HD Blu-ray (apparently with a few exceptions) is HDR+WCG.

Using an Integral to "disable" HDR, doesn't mean it's not HDR, you can't remove HDR, you can't strip it, what it means is the player has to perform some sort of EOTF manipulation to make it's HDR output compatible with a display using an SDR EOTF.

What I'm trying to say is, it's not a question of HDR vs SDR, it's a question of whether player doing DRC and having the projector use a normal SDR EOTF produces a better result than having the player output native HDR, and having the projector use an HDR EOTF.

To that question, I struggle to see how a player can do a better job* with a "one size fits all", single slider approach vs a completely customizeable EOTF. *I completely understand the possibility that the projector could do a really bad job, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
EOTF is "Electro-Optical Transfer Function", it's the function/curve defines how to map digital codes (electro) to physical brightnesses (optical). A gamma curve is one specific EOTF, the HDR PQ (ST.2084) curve is another.

So, the normal case is the player just sends HDR content (coded with the HDR EOTF, the ST.2084 PQ curve) directly to the display and it deals with it.

If you use something to force Dynamic Range Conversion, then the player maps that HDR content to an SDR EOTF, assumingly a power gamma or BT.1886 curve. This way a display that only understands SDR content will be able to handle it correctly.

In either case, HDR content on the disc needs to be mapped to physical brightness values, it's just a question of how/where that all gets done.

Basically the custom gamma curves are HDR EOTFs that we've created/uploaded to the projector. They're not exactly the ST.2084 EOTF, but they're based on it.

I think asking if HDR or SDR is better for a display under "x" nits is the wrong question, we're watching HDR content either way (UHD Blu-ray), it's a question of who does the mapping better.
And regarding the question about using High Lamp for HDR Content, I asked if this would provide a somewhat wider Dynamic Range, to better accommodate the range available with HDR (e.g. 0-150 using my arbitrary figures):

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Oh, absolutely. But lets use real numbers. My SDR config is calibrated for about 14-16fL, or right about 50 nits, I do that in low lamp, aperture = -10. When I made my custom gamma curve (HDR EOTF), I opened everything up and flipped to high lamp, that netted me about 125 nits. So my HDR preset is over twice as bright (peak white) as my SDR preset, that means I've got quite a lot of headroom for highlights, while allowing reference white to be exactly the same.
What I've taken away from these insightful replies:

1. HDR offers a more finely graded range in brightness (more 'steps' or 'levels') vs regular SDR, in addition to the greater absolute dynamic range. This should have some impact on the picture quality, with more 'subtle' gradations within the Projector's available dynamic range. This is basically for HDR mastered content vs SDR mastered content (and setting aside the WCG for the sake of this discussion), regardless of what method we use to view that HDR content.

2. In order to view HDR mastered content on our projectors, with the restricted Dynamic Range, a 'mapping' needs to take place, whether one is using the Integral for SDR/2020, or the Custom Curves recently made available. The question is which does the job better.

3. The Integral approach is less user controllable, as it relies on the strengths/weaknesses of the Bluray player which is doing the initial remapping. Even with the Slider available in some players, this is simply a less precise way of accomplishing the remapping, since the Custom Curves can be customized to each setup, and are dramatically more adjustable or 'tunable.'

4. The use of High Lamp will increase the available Dynamic Range to better close the gap between what HDR offers, and what our Projectors are able to display.

If I've made errors here, or omitted significant issues, please clarify (and I'm ignoring the fact that the Custom Curve approach would also work with streaming content, which is another practical advantage, but not directly relevant to the theoretical questions I posted).

A couple of practical implications:

A. If our Projectors cannot handle the full range of HDR content, then one would do better by using High Lamp to better close the gap. Fan noise aside, should that be problematic in a person's set-up, and setting aside bulb life, wouldn't there be a universal real-world benefit to running in High Lamp for all HDR content (regardless of the method used to map the HDR)?

Edited to Add:

Further comments on this topic indicate that using High Lamp doesn't actually improve the available Dynamic Range, since the Black Floor is raised along with the greater White limit, leaving the same "0-100" range I used in my original post.

But, if one uses a wide open Aperture, along with Dynamic Iris, then the real-world available contrast is enhanced to better accommodate the "0-200" range of HDR. Without DI, no net gain is obtained in Dynamic Range, although it will be brighter overall, which might still be useful.

B. @Manni01 had suggested that if one's setup is not capable of 100 nits or more, then running SDR/BT2020 with the use of the Integral would be advisable. But if I'm understanding the replies I received and summarized above, then this advice in a sense 'doesn't apply' since it's more a question of which method does the mapping better, since the limited available dynamic range of our Projectors is the same in either case. And the replies make a strong case for the benefits of the Custom Curve vs Integral approach.


If I've made errors in comprehension, or logic, or omitted important variables, please advise. And I hope this is a useful discussion for others (I know it has been for me), as many seem to struggle, as I have, trying to understand how this all works, and in turn, how to best view HDR content on our Projectors.

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Last edited by DLCPhoto; 02-26-2017 at 07:01 AM. Reason: clarification of one issue
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post #21705 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post
So I was having trouble finding an HDMI cable that was 25ft or longer and could pass the full 18Gbps signal from a Roku Ultra and Oppo 203 thourgh a Marantz 7702mkii to the JVC RS500. From some recommendations here, I picked up a 25ft Bluejean Cables Series 1. Well, it didn't work, at least not completely. I do appreciate the feedback though helping me select the cable.
For what its worth, i have the same 25' Blue Jeans Series 1 cable and a Roku Ultra where i watch UHD content on Netflix. I had the same problem and ended up figuring out that it was my interconnect between the Roku and the Denon AVR that was causing a problem. Replace the interconnect with a 3' Mono Price certified and my problems went away.

If you haven't tried connecting the Roku to the projector directly with the Blue Jeans cable, give that a try first before returning the Blue Jeans cable.

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post #21706 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 05:30 AM
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@DLCPhoto re the above, what I've said is that for most people who already have the Integral, then I wouldn't advise to get the linker on top unless you have at least 100nits, because you can get something very similar with SDR BT2020 and the Integral. Now of course, if you don't have an Integral already, then get the linker which allows you to try both SDR BT2020 and HDR with the DI and compare what works best in your setup.

I still think that someone who has less than 100nits available is wasting their time with HDR, but with the new curves you should get as good or better results in HDR as long as you spend the time creating exactly the right curve for your setup (i.e. display 0-100nits in the content exactly as it would be in SDR, mapped to 0-50nits, then compress the highlights in whatever headroom remains). This shows that there is nothing to gain for people who have 50nits or less (the picture HDR picture will be darker if they make any room for the highlights above 100nits in the content), and very little for those who have 50 to 100nits available.

Sounds like a great deal of trouble to me compared to using SDR BT2020 targeting 100nits (not 50nits) or whatever your peakY is and adjusting the DRC slider. When set to -5 or -6 on the Panny, you only clip the very top of the highlights (between 2000-4000nits) so the picture is "good enough" for most people, i.e. perfect with 1000-1100nits tiles and with just a bit of the highlights clipped with 4000nits titles.

If you have more than 100nits, then it becomes worth the hassle of finding the best curve and getting HDR to work, especially with the Linker and the DI enabled.

It's just my opinion, I won't argue with anyone thinking differently

Last edited by Manni01; 02-25-2017 at 06:02 AM.
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post #21707 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
@DLCPhoto re the above, what I've said is that for most people who already have the Integral, then I wouldn't advise to get the linker on top unless you have at least 100nits, because you can get something very similar with SDR BT2020 and the Integral. Now of course, if you don't have an Integral already, then get the linker which allows you to try both SDR BT2020 and HDR with the DI and compare what works best in your setup.

I still think that someone who has less than 100nits available is wasting their time with HDR, but with the new curves you should get as good or better results in HDR as long as you spend the time creating exactly the right curve for your setup (i.e. display 0-100nits in the content exactly as it would be in SDR, mapped to 0-50nits, then compress the highlights in whatever headroom remains). This shows that there is nothing to gain for people who have 50nits or less (the picture HDR picture will be darker if they make any room for the highlights above 100nits in the content), and very little for those who have 50 to 100nits available.

Sounds like a great deal of trouble to me compared to using SDR BT2020 targeting 100nits (not 50nits) or whatever your peakY is and adjusting the DRC slider. When set to -5 or -6 on the Panny, you only clip the very top of the highlights (between 2000-4000nits) so the picture is "good enough" for most people, i.e. perfect with 1000-1100nits tiles and with just a bit of the highlights clipped with 4000nits titles.

If you have more than 100nits, then it becomes worth the hassle of finding the best curve and getting HDR to work, especially with the Linker and the DI enabled.

It's just my opinion, I won't argue with anyone thinking differently
Thanks for the reply, Manni.

I don't know enough, or have enough experience, to have an opinion at this stage of the game - I'm just posting to make sure I understand the relevant concepts in order to make an 'informed choice' in how I implement all of this in my own setup.

On the practical side, there is the appropriate question you raise of how much 'real-world' benefit there would be if one takes the time and effort to get an accurate Custom Curve for their set-up, vs the "good enough" and easily implemented option using the Integral.

I just wanted to make sure I understood the theoretical underpinnings of both approaches, their respective advantages and disadvantages, etc. and make sure I wasn't misunderstanding or overlooking anything important.

I appreciate all you've contributed!

Don
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post #21708 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 06:34 AM
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Ive read pretty much everything in the main posts, but I still can't see how I determine how many nits I have?

Could anyone please tell me the basics of how to determine that please?

Thanks in advance.

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post #21709 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 06:35 AM
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For my setup with the HP screen it's a no brainer to use HDR now as I have plenty of brightness available to the point that I have to clamp the iris down in high lamp to avoid squinting in bright scenes.

Arve gets the lurker of the century award! A member since 2006 and shows up 10+ years later with this JVC python app!! thank you!

this is the brighter side of the internet - folks coming together from all over the map for a common goal, one that now easily exceeds the best attempt from the factory. Sometimes the consumers do know more than the manufacturers..
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post #21710 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 06:51 AM
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Finally got back home yesterday and was able to do a bit of testing. I am using one of the new RS620's. First, if you have a Radiance Pro you do not need a Linker to be able to use the DI with HDR. You can do the same thing with the Radiance that people are using the Linker for. Just make sure the input side says yes for HDR and the output side (selection is in the CMS option used for HDR) is set to SDR2020. This will just pass the info as is but without the HDR info frame so the projector doesn't know it is getting HDR (same as the Linker).

I uploaded Manni's curves and installed them. I am seeing the same issue that Zombie reported when it comes to the DI functionality. With the Panasonic brightness set at 4, the DI was limited in how much it would clamp down. Taking it 2 or less fixes the issue. I plan on uploading some curves using the Arve tool today to see if that eliminates the problem.
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post #21711 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hi Folks...

I've been running my pj with the Integral and Panni...now that we have a working implementation of hdr, is there any reason to have the Integral in the chain? Also I been watching hdr a lot with the Manni curve 200-1200-4000 and last night I popped in a plain old 1080p disc and wow the blacks with the DI are amazing...if there is no need for an Integral anymore, if I get a Linker, should I expect the exact same type of DI blacks I get with 1080p and the DI. With HDR, the DI and the Linker and do I now ditch the Integral? Thanks folks
I have the same question.
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post #21712 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
How are you guys establishing the Nits you have available at different settings?

Some have 50, some have 150 - is it via light meter? I guess the variances are screen size, gain, and low or high lamp.

I know this is probably a silly question, but are there ant Apps available which go reasonably close, even +/- 10%, which I could experiment with?
I also have the same question here.

I think it's by using a i1d3 or similar device to measure ftL off the screen when displaying a 100IRE pattern while in the BT2020 color mode. Then converting that ftL value to nits using an online calculator (widely available).
Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.
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post #21713 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hi Folks...

I've been running my pj with the Integral and Panni...now that we have a working implementation of hdr, is there any reason to have the Integral in the chain? Also I been watching hdr a lot with the Manni curve 200-1200-4000 and last night I popped in a plain old 1080p disc and wow the blacks with the DI are amazing...if there is no need for an Integral anymore, if I get a Linker, should I expect the exact same type of DI blacks I get with 1080p and the DI. With HDR, the DI and the Linker and do I now ditch the Integral? Thanks folks
I used the Integral to get SDR BT2020 for the past several months. A couple days ago I got a Linker. If your only purpose of having the Integral is to do the HDR to SDR conversion with your Blu-ray player (there are many other uses for an Integral), and you are interested in using HDR with the DI and assuming you get good results with a custom curve, then certainly in my opinion you will no longer need the Integral. My recommendation would be to get a Linker and experiment. Once you are sure you are happy with the results, then look to sell your Inegral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I've had some time to mull over the replies I received on my post wanting to better understand the benefits of watching HDR content with the Custom Curve approach pioneered by Manni01, Arve, and others, vs the "SDR/BT2020 approach using the HDFury Integral. The fact that the available dynamic range is our Projectors is smaller (I used the arbitrary range of 0-100 for the sake of the discussion) than the range of what HDR actually contains (0-200 was my arbitrary figure) is the source of the conundrum.

What I've taken away from these insightful replies:...
Great post. Maybe Manni will link to it in the calibration thread first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
@DLCPhoto re the above, what I've said is that for most people who already have the Integral, then I wouldn't advise to get the linker on top unless you have at least 100nits, because you can get something very similar with SDR BT2020 and the Integral. Now of course, if you don't have an Integral already, then get the linker which allows you to try both SDR BT2020 and HDR with the DI and compare what works best in your setup.

I still think that someone who has less than 100nits available is wasting their time with HDR, but with the new curves you should get as good or better results in HDR as long as you spend the time creating exactly the right curve for your setup (i.e. display 0-100nits in the content exactly as it would be in SDR, mapped to 0-50nits, then compress the highlights in whatever headroom remains). This shows that there is nothing to gain for people who have 50nits or less (the picture HDR picture will be darker if they make any room for the highlights above 100nits in the content), and very little for those who have 50 to 100nits available.

Sounds like a great deal of trouble to me compared to using SDR BT2020 targeting 100nits (not 50nits) or whatever your peakY is and adjusting the DRC slider. When set to -5 or -6 on the Panny, you only clip the very top of the highlights (between 2000-4000nits) so the picture is "good enough" for most people, i.e. perfect with 1000-1100nits tiles and with just a bit of the highlights clipped with 4000nits titles.

If you have more than 100nits, then it becomes worth the hassle of finding the best curve and getting HDR to work, especially with the Linker and the DI enabled.

It's just my opinion, I won't argue with anyone thinking differently
I was a bit surprised to read that, as I thought that was your old advice, prior to getting the DI working. For instance your advice to me was that if I didn't mind spending the money to get a Linker, than even though I only had 50 nits, that Linker + custom curve + DI would give just as good results as SDR-BT2020 with 1000 nit content, and much improved results with 4000 nit master content. Unless I misunderstood. I did some testing with a custom curve last night and preliminary results look stellar. More about that in a next upcoming post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Finally got back home yesterday and was able to do a bit of testing. I am using one of the new RS620's. First, if you have a Radiance Pro you do not need a Linker to be able to use the DI with HDR. You can do the same thing with the Radiance that people are using the Linker for. Just make sure the input side says yes for HDR and the output side (selection is in the CMS option used for HDR) is set to SDR2020. This will just pass the info as is but without the HDR info frame so the projector doesn't know it is getting HDR (same as the Linker).
Great to know.

Quote:
I uploaded Manni's curves and installed them. I am seeing the same issue that Zombie reported when it comes to the DI functionality. With the Panasonic brightness set at 4, the DI was limited in how much it would clamp down. Taking it 2 or less fixes the issue. I plan on uploading some curves using the Arve tool today to see if that eliminates the problem.
Look for my posts to Zombie about this from around a couple days ago. I posted details on what I think may be going on. Bottom line is that the DI may still be working - its just not as sensitive with the higher brightness settings. So say with brightness +5 the iris may not close at all on a low APL scene, yet close quite a bit on the same scene with brightness at +2. Here's a quick test - put on the opening of Ghostbusters 4K, or any title that has a lot of fade to black back and forth in the opening credits/scenes, like Tarzan 4K too. Can you see your iris working on those scenes? I'm pretty sure the answer will be Yes. Let us know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I also have the same question here.

I think it's by using a i1d3 or similar device to measure ftL off the screen when displaying a 100IRE pattern while in the BT2020 color mode. Then converting that ftL value to nits using an online calculator (widely available).
Someone please correct me if this is incorrect.
Yes you have it exactly right! I came across a few online calculators that had the conversion wrong. Here's one I've been using that seems to give accurate results: http://www.convertworld.com/en/lumin...t-lambert.html
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post #21714 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hi Folks...

I've been running my pj with the Integral and Panni...now that we have a working implementation of hdr, is there any reason to have the Integral in the chain? Also I been watching hdr a lot with the Manni curve 200-1200-4000 and last night I popped in a plain old 1080p disc and wow the blacks with the DI are amazing...if there is no need for an Integral anymore, if I get a Linker, should I expect the exact same type of DI blacks I get with 1080p and the DI. With HDR, the DI and the Linker and do I now ditch the Integral? Thanks folks
If the only reason you have an Integral is to get BT.2020 SDR from the Panasonic player, then you can replace it in your device chain with the Linker. Both have the same set of custom EDIDs. With the Linker you can continue to get BT.2020 SDR like you currently get with the Integral, or you can choose HDR with a working dynamic iris. Your choice.

In my case HDR when using the Linker combined with the new custom gamma curves, there is significant improvement with blacks. I watched the UHD disc of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon last night. There is a scene where a character turns and runs down an alley until she suddenly disappears into complete blackness. I can't begin to say how much improvement the working Dynamic Iris combined with a custom curve made with this disc.
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post #21715 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:12 AM
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Getting ready to take some measurements, make some customers curves and test content. Where can I find time stamps of movie clips to watch? I have mad Max, revenant, John wick, martian, Lucy.

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post #21716 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I was a bit surprised to read that, as I thought that was your old advice, prior to getting the DI working. For instance your advice to me was that if I didn't mind spending the money to get a Linker, than even though I only had 50 nits, that Linker + custom curve + DI would give just as good results as SDR-BT2020 with 1000 nit content, and much improved results with 4000 nit master content. Unless I misunderstood. I did some testing with a custom curve last night and preliminary results look stellar. More about that in a next upcoming post.
You haven't read my post. That's exactly what I said. *IF* you don't mind spending the money and the time, you should get at least as good a result with the linker and a custom gamma curve in HDR. That's *IF* you don't mind spending the time and the money. Personally, I still don't think the difference compared to what you can get with SDR BT2020 targeting your peak white (less than 50nits) is worth $200 and the time spent, but as I said, I won't disagree with you or anyone on this.


That is unless you try to resolve up to 4000nits, in which case yes, the SDR BT2020 would be very dim, but setting the slider to clip content to 1100nits should give most people a very satisfying picture for all movies including 4000nits ones, and in my opinion the difference in PQ isn't worth the time and money needed to get better *IF* you have less than 100nits *AND* if you don't have unlimited amounts of time and money to get the last bit of performance out of your PJ.


Of course if you already have a Radiance Pro or a linker, by all means use HDR with a custom gamma curve and spend hours getting the custom curve that will get you a marginally better picture with half the titles. I'm not surprised that you're up for doing this, because you're OCD like myself, but I think most *normal* people with less than 100nits to play with would struggle to see any difference and would therefore question the investment in time and money.
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post #21717 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Finally got back home yesterday and was able to do a bit of testing. I am using one of the new RS620's. First, if you have a Radiance Pro you do not need a Linker to be able to use the DI with HDR. You can do the same thing with the Radiance that people are using the Linker for. Just make sure the input side says yes for HDR and the output side (selection is in the CMS option used for HDR) is set to SDR2020. This will just pass the info as is but without the HDR info frame so the projector doesn't know it is getting HDR (same as the Linker).

I uploaded Manni's curves and installed them. I am seeing the same issue that Zombie reported when it comes to the DI functionality. With the Panasonic brightness set at 4, the DI was limited in how much it would clamp down. Taking it 2 or less fixes the issue. I plan on uploading some curves using the Arve tool today to see if that eliminates the problem.
Hi Kris,

Yes Wookii confirmed that the DI was working with the Radiance Pro a long time ago, it's just that not many people have a Radiance Pro in this thread, so we don't mention it every time...

You should indeed try to upload an original curve and see if you still have this issue with the DI. I think Zombie doesn't have it now that he's using Arve's tool directly. I certainly don't have it either, and I'm using an original curve myself, with brightness on the Panny set to +4.
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post #21718 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:23 AM
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Results of Linker + DI + Custom curve in my 45 nit setup

@Manni01 and all - OK so last night I finally had a chance to get everything set up and try the Linker + DI + my own custom curves. I have a low nit setup, around 45 nits. Before making my own curves I was using Manni's 600-400-4000. First I made my own 600-400-4000 (using 0.3 factor) and put it in a different custom gamma setting. I then flipped back and forth between this custom one with 256 steps and Manni's with 11 steps. On the various scenes I checked (while paused) I could not notice ANY difference whatsoever between the 11 and 256 step version. So in case anyone is wondering, there seems to be zero advantage to making your own curve just to get a 256 step version over the "stock" 11 step versions Manni provided.

Next I made my own curve as 400-280-4000 (using 0.3 factor, and all other settings as Manni recommends for the other params). It looked spectacular. Image was noticeably (and quite significantly) brighter, while the black levels remained inky. In fact the black levels in some ways looked even darker because the bright parts of the image appeared brighter (perceived higher contrast - or maybe with some HDR benefit in there (if any) the contrast improvement was real, not just perceived).

Additionally the colors looked great too, nice and vibrant where they should be. IOW I did not detect any desaturation issues or really any downside to this setting. The 600-400-4000 looked rather dull in comparison. It was late so I didn't look at some other discs - I was mostly testing with Lucy, and in particular the last couple of chapters where there are a lot of vibrant scenes. The picture quality never looked so good! Today I am going to revert to SDR BT2020 to compare that with my 400-280-4000. Perhaps it will look just as good or better and I just don't recall it ever looking that way. So I really need to refresh my memory on that to conclude which if either setup is better. I also compared a 400-280-4000 curve with 0.3 factor and 0.5 factor - on the scenes I checked and in general I could not spot ANY differences.

The only oddity I noticed is that in a few bright scenes where I would have expected a totally smooth gradiant there was a fair amount of banding. The amount of banding didn't change between 600-400-4000 and 400-280-4000. So I want to look at this with SDR BT2020 and see if the banding is there or not.

QUESTION - There is no free lunch with this stuff, right?
I'm pretty sure I can't just go cranking up the custom curve brightness like I did, going from 600-400-4000 to 400-280-4000, without SOME SORT of degradation somewhere else, right? I figure that I must be trading up quality in some other area by doing this? But if so, what am I giving up? IOW when you use a brighter curve like 400-280 over 600-400 or 800-600, what is the DOWNSIDE of doing that?? Perhaps it means more clipping and or more banding?
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post #21719 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You haven't read my post. That's exactly what I said. *IF* you don't mind spending the money and the time, you should get at least as good a result with the linker and a custom gamma curve in HDR. That's *IF* you don't mind spending the time and the money. Personally, I still don't think the difference compared to what you can get with SDR BT2020 targeting your peak white (less than 50nits) is worth $200 and the time spent, but as I said, I won't disagree with you or anyone on this.


That is unless you try to resolve up to 4000nits, in which case yes, the SDR BT2020 would be very dim, but setting the slider to clip content to 1100nits should give most people a very satisfying picture for all movies including 4000nits ones, and in my opinion the difference in PQ isn't worth the time and money needed to get better *IF* you have less than 100nits *AND* if you don't have unlimited amounts of time and money to get the last bit of performance out of your PJ.


Of course if you already have a Radiance Pro or a linker, by all means use HDR with a custom gamma curve and spend hours getting the custom curve that will get you a marginally better picture with half the titles. I'm not surprised that you're up for doing this, because you're OCD like myself, but I think most *normal* people with less than 100nits to play with would struggle to see any difference and would therefore question the investment in time and money.
Not directed at Manni, but for the benefit of those just joining the discussion:

All of that is true BUT it assumes you are only feeding your projector HDR content from a device that can correctly map HDR2020 to SDR2020.

There is exactly one device that does that "right" -- the Panasonic UHD player. The Oppo will probably do it as well, eventually, but it doesn't yet.

But your Samsung players and Philips players don't do it well. No UHD streamers (Roku, Chromecast, FireTV) do it well (or even at all). Etc.

So even if the quality of the end result is similar, the distinct advantage to using the custom gamma curve (and the improvement of using the Linker) means that ALL HDR10 sources will look good, versus just one source looking good....
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post #21720 of 31985 Old 02-25-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
If the only reason you have an Integral is to get BT.2020 SDR from the Panasonic player, then you can replace it in your device chain with the Linker. Both have the same set of custom EDIDs. With the Linker you can continue to get BT.2020 SDR like you currently get with the Integral, or you can choose HDR with a working dynamic iris. Your choice.

In my case HDR when using the Linker combined with the new custom gamma curves, there is significant improvement with blacks. I watched the UHD disc of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon last night. There is a scene where a character turns and runs down an alley until she suddenly disappears into complete blackness. I can't begin to say how much improvement the working Dynamic Iris combined with a custom curve made with this disc.
Thanks for the reply...can I just leave the Linker on edid8 even for 1080p? If no how does one change the edid? Right now I use my iPhone app? Thanks

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