Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 746 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22351 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I don't agree. If you want an accurate image you spend the time it takes to get that image so you CAN enjoy the movies and not worrying about whether things are right or not. With HD content this is simple because all the tools and specs are well established to dial in the image to the director's intent. HDR is completely the opposite, so trying to get the right image is taking a lot of trial and error for the moment. Whether we will ever really have a true spec for projection playback is debatable, but there is obviously room for improvement right now. If all you want to do is sit back and enjoy the movie, I would recommend you skip HDR right now and tell the player HDR OFF. This would give you 4K but you don't have to worry about the rest of the details.
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Great, thanks Manni. A few questions/clarifications please:

1. Any idea what caused your crush that you couldn't get rid of and then suddenly was gone? I'm just a little concerned I could get into that situation and not know how to solve it.
It's not gone suddenly, I'm using the black brightness parameter in Arve's tool (wip branch only) to deal with it. I don't know where it comes from, I've ask Arne to do some tests in standard to see if it might come from his curves. I was doing most of my testing in high lamp so maybe the crush was there but less visible in high lamp? Anyway it's solved for now and I don't have the time to investigate futher at this point in time.


2. I'll try with wip branch. I suppose you recommend I let it auto-set the soft clip for me?
Yes, and play with the soft end curve parameter to find the right angle and stick to PQ longer. I also explained this in my post.


3. Previously you had said to use something like 0.35 for CES. Sounds like now you like higher. I will experiment by using Ray's patterns like you said to see what CES I need to use to get Ray's patterns good with contrast at 0 in JVC and panny. Are there any other params to tweak for that besides CES? I think before you said tweak soft clip, but if that is using auto...
You need to re-read the recent posts, taking your time. You're missing a lot of information


4. Regarding the Setup HDR function - do you recommend using that? Is that how you came up with your 0.05 for brightness correction?
No, it's not related and I don't recommend using it. Just set everything to 0,0 and use the parameters to adjust the curve so it does exactly what you expect.


5. In summary, things seem to be getting a little easier to understand for me, particularly with the idea of a auto-configed soft clip point. Here's my plan:

- Set contrast/brightness to 0 in panny and JVC
Correct

- Use a ratio of first and second params of 4:1 (4x multiplier)
I've explained my method, you're free to use any that makes more sense to you

- Let tool calculate soft clip
Soft clip start only. You still have to set the other parameters. I've explained everything in my post.

- Put Ray's bright clipping pattern up
Correct

- Generate curves with x, 0,1 for last two params. Where x = various attempts from say 0.25 - 0.75, and one of these values should get me to the point where it clips at 4000?
Yes but not only, all the other parameters impact this as well.

- Figure out the above, then bring up black clipping pattern, generate the same curve as the winner from the above (that clips at 4000) but try different black compensation so that the black level is set perfectly.
Not black compensation, that's for BT1886, you need to adjust black brightness for PQ.

Then I have my winner for the 4x multiplier. Then rinse and repeat, trying other multipliers say 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6. Figure out which I like best for certain titles and then done...
If you resolve down to 0.005nits and up to 4000nits there is no need to use different curves for different titles. One curve should work fine for ALL titles. At least that's what I experience here.


Is that "it"?
I hope this helps but I need to get back to work
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post #22352 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
I see it would be nice to have a plug and play!
You want plug and play buy a RS520 or RS620. HDR works very very well out of the box.

Have a look. Important thing to note is the shadow detail essentially exactly matches the SDR WCG shadow detail. Which is still my preferred version btw.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202237
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202234

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post #22353 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You want plug and play buy a RS520 or RS620. HDR works very very well out of the box.

Have a look. Important thing to note is the shadow detail essentially exactly matches the SDR WCG shadow detail. Which is still my preferred version btw.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202237
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202234
SDR is still your preferred version because you're not watching what a custom curve would give you, and because you can't use the DI in HDR

HDR is marginally better in the new models, as in easier to use, but it's still an approximate Gamma D curve, even if you can now get the low end right without raising the black floor (which was, I agree, the biggest downside of the implementation of Gamma D in our models).

I also doubt that you can use one curve to play all the titles in an optimal way, which is another advantage of a well-designed custom curve.

I used to prefer SDR BT2020 (as you know), but a custom curve and the DI thanks to the linker, and you really won't look back.

I have deleted my SDR BT2020 user mode, so that says a lot
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post #22354 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

These three curves resolve 0.5 to 4000nits here and look very, very nice.

I'm going to play a bit with these curves playing different titles and I'll see how it goes.

I might create a "bump the low end" curve for titles mastered too dark, such as Arrival apparently, but with this curve I have no problem watching titles such as Star Trek Beyond or Batman vs Superman.

I watched Lucy with my 900 default curve above and it looks amazing, especially with the DI which works great.
Thanks Manni! I will check this out tonight and provide feedback. I can get away with low lamp wide open on the large HP with a few of the curves I was working on.

btw, I was experimenting with the Oblivion UHD last night to check the DI in the interrogation scene, I haven't looked at it in months. What a bummer, they ruined this UHD release, the BD looks significantly better / sharper. They should have just transferred the ATMOS track to the BD.
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post #22355 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You want plug and play buy a RS520 or RS620. HDR works very very well out of the box.

Have a look. Important thing to note is the shadow detail essentially exactly matches the SDR WCG shadow detail. Which is still my preferred version btw.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202237
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/202234
One thing that keeps coming to mind about how HDR looks in general - how do we know what the director's intent is for the way the image is supposed to look? For instance in your screens I think most would agree that the ones with the highlights are more visually pleasing. But an arguement could probably be made that those with the highlights are exaggerated. As an analogy - its like people that purposely oversaturate the colors - it may look more vibrant, but its not accurate. In this sense how can we know that the non highlighted ones are not more correct in actuality? I know - at the end of the day its whatever we like better, regardless if its right or not. But just wondering about how to know which is technically the correct one...
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post #22356 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
SDR is still your preferred version because you're not watching what a custom curve would give you, and because you can't use the DI in HDR

HDR is marginally better in the new models, as in easier to use, but it's still an approximate Gamma D curve, even if you can now get the low end right without raising the black floor (which was, I agree, the biggest downside of the implementation of Gamma D in our models).

I also doubt that you can use one curve to play all the titles in an optimal way, which is another advantage of a well-designed custom curve.

I used to prefer SDR BT2020 (as you know), but a custom curve and the DI thanks to the linker, and you really won't look back.

I have deleted my SDR BT2020 user mode, so that says a lot
Manni,

With respect, have you seen the new models, spent some time with them and measured them? Don't be so quick to call it another Gamma D. We have users in the new models thread who have tried the curves on offer here, and most prefer the out of the box curves. It is not a subtle difference, it was substantially better, orders of magnitude.

Kris Deering is an advocate (Of both methods actually) however he says it tracks on ST2084 target with only a couple of clicks in the DL Gamma and one click or so on the BL needed.

I also see from Chads measurements on an RS400 he calibrated that the gamma curve tracked almost exactly following the ST2084 curve.

I prefer SDR because of the brightness, I don't like a bright image, that is all. 15fl is plenty for me, and there are scenes that have plenty of punch IMO. And I am not about to buy a linker. They are not playing nice with the new models (Crashing and hard locks - not HDFury's fault, the JVC's need some kind of firmware update for stability as its clearly becoming a wider issue now).

BTW, I have your zip file, I will try out some of your curves today, any thoughts on which you personally think is the winner (Not using Arves tool)?

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post #22357 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
One thing that keeps coming to mind about how HDR looks in general - how do we know what the director's intent is for the way the image is supposed to look? For instance in your screens I think most would agree that the ones with the highlights are more visually pleasing. But an arguement could probably be made that those with the highlights are exaggerated. As an analogy - its like people that purposely oversaturate the colors - it may look more vibrant, but its not accurate. In this sense how can we know that the non highlighted ones are not more correct in actuality? I know - at the end of the day its whatever we like better, regardless if its right or not. But just wondering about how to know which is technically the correct one...
You could watch the Blu Ray - one would think that is mastered correctly. The 4K version should have colors that look closer to a DCI projector's color, and better resolution. It shouldn't be radically different.
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post #22358 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
One thing that keeps coming to mind about how HDR looks in general - how do we know what the director's intent is for the way the image is supposed to look? For instance in your screens I think most would agree that the ones with the highlights are more visually pleasing. But an arguement could probably be made that those with the highlights are exaggerated. As an analogy - its like people that purposely oversaturate the colors - it may look more vibrant, but its not accurate. In this sense how can we know that the non highlighted ones are not more correct in actuality? I know - at the end of the day its whatever we like better, regardless if its right or not. But just wondering about how to know which is technically the correct one...
You are onto something here, I have known this for a very long time

Take one look at Arrival. Rogue One, Godzilla.

Those three movies all have one distinct thing in common and I probably don't need to spell it out to you. You wait, you guys are all going to be crying about the way Rogue One is going to look on Bluray

As for my two screen-shots, that was before I set clipping properly with patterns, but that's not what I was amazed at. I was amazed at absolutely ZERO, and I mean NO shadow/mid tone detail loss/compromise and overall over-saturation cooked image look to HDR, it suddenly looked exactly like SDR WCG, though a little brighter, and with a bit more punch in highlights etc... I can instantly tell this is the thing you guys are all chasing here. Some of you should be able to trust my judgement by now, and I can promise you, the out of the box HDR mode on these new projectors is so good, I would be more than happy to sit back and just accept what is there.

I will try the best of the curves on offer here, but the fact is, for the first time, my JVC out of the box measures the entire Rec2020/P3 colour gamut under DE 3 with correct saturation tracking out of the box which is most impressive, and from what I know about film (I have over 10 years in this industry) the SDR pics are the correctly graded images.

I have worked personally and closely though the inception phase with multiple directors (including a few now making 30 million dollar + films) long enough to know what they like, the look they go for, I was taught by some greats as to what a good image looks like in film, I spent years as a directors assistant (Not the coffee getting type ) working on film pitches, film trailers and referencing everything out there to communicate the tonal and visual direction for films and such - we then show these to the studio heads to green-light movies and award the director the job, and they fine tuned my 'eye' so to speak.

I know enough to be able to separate the 'Artistic Intent' from what I see. I know far less about calibration, but I can also tell you without hesitation that only 5% of the directors who have films on the UHD-BR format right now had ANYTHING to do with the colour grade to HDR. But everything to do with the SDR grade when they actually shot the film, Another reason I prefer SDR - its how the film was made originally (Except for 200 Million dollar tentpole movies), HDR is currently an afterthought for the most part.
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post #22359 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:23 PM
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You could watch the Blu Ray - one would think that is mastered correctly. The 4K version should have colors that look closer to a DCI projector's color, and better resolution. It shouldn't be radically different.
Bingo, I would rather the DCI SDR grade any day of the week.
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post #22360 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:24 PM
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I have a G3 where is the screen code?
In the installation menu on the JVC I believe. I think it is 074 for the Firehawk G3 but you should confirm. The JVC manual has the jvc web site for the table of codes. I am not sure if it is a good idea or not to use it but would feel much better about it if they had a code that matched my screen.
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post #22361 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks Manni! I will check this out tonight and provide feedback. I can get away with low lamp wide open on the large HP with a few of the curves I was working on.

btw, I was experimenting with the Oblivion UHD last night to check the DI in the interrogation scene, I haven't looked at it in months. What a bummer, they ruined this UHD release, the BD looks significantly better / sharper. They should have just transferred the ATMOS track to the BD.


Thanks, looking forward to your feedback. Yes Oblivion was botched, still it's a good title to check the DI in the interrogation scene.

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One thing that keeps coming to mind about how HDR looks in general - how do we know what the director's intent is for the way the image is supposed to look? For instance in your screens I think most would agree that the ones with the highlights are more visually pleasing. But an arguement could probably be made that those with the highlights are exaggerated. As an analogy - its like people that purposely oversaturate the colors - it may look more vibrant, but its not accurate. In this sense how can we know that the non highlighted ones are not more correct in actuality? I know - at the end of the day its whatever we like better, regardless if its right or not. But just wondering about how to know which is technically the correct one...


You are trying to evaluate HDR BT2020 content from screenshots shown (I assume) on an SDR computer screen?


There is no correct HDR10 playback until there is a standard defined for consumer playback. Until there is such a standard, it's up to common sense and personal taste mostly.

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Manni,

With respect, have you seen the new models, spent some time with them and measured them? Don't be so quick to call it another Gamma D. We have users in the new models thread who have tried the curves on offer here, and most prefer the out of the box curves. It is not a subtle difference, it was substantially better, orders of magnitude.

Kris Deering is an advocate (Of both methods actually) however he says it tracks on ST2084 target with only a couple of clicks in the DL Gamma and one click or so on the BL needed.

I also see from Chads measurements on an RS400 he calibrated that the gamma curve tracked almost exactly following the ST2084 curve.

I prefer SDR because of the brightness, I don't like a bright image, that is all. 15fl is plenty for me, and there are scenes that have plenty of punch IMO. And I am not about to buy a linker. They are not playing nice with the new models (Crashing and hard locks - not HDFury's fault, the JVC's need some kind of firmware update for stability as its clearly becoming a wider issue now).

BTW, I have your zip file, I will try out some of your curves today, any thoughts on which you personally think is the winner (Not using Arves tool)?


I haven't seen one of the new models but I don't need to see one to know what it will look like from this respect. The way HDR is implemented in the JVCs is wrong because it's fixed. Yes you can clip lower or higher and make the curve follow ST2084. This is not what is going to give you a good representation of HDR. You need a way to adjust the roll-off and this is precisely what a custom curve gives you. That, and the fact that you can't enable the DI.


There is no winner in my curves. They are made primarily for my setup, or I've just offered a few ready-made curves to try out. You need to design your curve for your setup and according to your taste, or hire someone competent to do it for you. Then you'll see an HDR picture that will make SDR BT2020 pale into insignificance, and you'll never go back (I know because I know you know a good picture when you see it).


I have no idea why you would want most of the picture brighter than SDR BT2020. The way I watch SDR, the two pictures are very similar 90% of the time on 90% of the picture. You just have slightly more saturated colors in HDR, especially as luminance goes up, plus you have highlights that make things (specular highlights like chrome etc) look more realistic. If you are blinded by the picture, except in some very extreme circumstances like at the beginning of Inferno where the effect is intended, your setup isn't correct. Most of the content will be shown at 15fL, just like SDR. You'll just get highlights here and there, and some extreme scenes (explosions etc) will be more impressive, but that's it.


It should really look like the graph you keep showing: most of the content below 100nits (so 50nits or below in our dedicated rooms) and occasional highlights above that.


Again, if you prefer SDR BT2020, it's because you've not seen HDR properly setup. And yes, I'm afraid the linker is necessary if you want to reclaim your DI (it's well worth it). I can't believe that you would not prefer HDR once you see it properly done (assuming you have at least 100nits of course, preferably 120-150nits). Below 100nits, I would still probably go for SDR BT2020.
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post #22362 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:29 PM
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I haven't seen one of the new models but I don't need to see one to know what it will look like from this respect. The way HDR is implemented in the JVCs is wrong because it's fixed. Yes you can clip lower or higher and make the curve follow ST2084. This is not what is going to give you a good representation of HDR. You need a way to adjust the roll-off and this is precisely what a custom curve gives you. That, and the fact that you can't enable the DI.

There is no winner in my curves. They are made primarily for my setup, or I've just offered a few ready-made curves to try out. You need to design your curve for your setup and according to your taste, or hire someone competent to do it for you. Then you'll see an HDR picture that will make SDR BT2020 pale into insignificance, and you'll never go back (I know because I know you know a good picture when you see it).

I have no idea why you would want most of the picture brighter than SDR BT2020. The way I watch SDR, the two pictures are very similar 90% of the time on 90% of the picture. You just have slightly more saturated colors in HDR, especially as luminance goes up, plus you have highlights that make things (specular highlights like chrome etc) look more realistic. If you are blinded by the picture, except in some very extreme circumstances like at the beginning of Inferno where the effect is intended, your setup isn't correct. Most of the content will be shown at 15fL, just like SDR. You'll just get highlights here and there, and some extreme scenes (explosions etc) will be more impressive, but that's it.

It should really look like the graph you keep showing: most of the content below 100nits (so 50nits or below in our dedicated rooms) and occasional highlights above that.

Again, if you prefer SDR BT2020, it's because you've not seen HDR properly setup. And yes, I'm afraid the linker is necessary if you want to reclaim your DI (it's well worth it). I can't believe that you would not prefer HDR once you see it properly done (assuming you have at least 100nits of course, preferably 120-150nits). Below 100nits, I would still probably go for SDR BT2020.
The bolded is the reason I am going to try the curves.

You are correct about everything else. We agree. In fact, with my two comparison photos, I didnt touch the camera exposure, so you can actually see (And those shots were literally out of the box) that most of the brightness levels are matching except for the highlights, which it to be expected. So yes I would be watching most content at 15fl you are right except for highlights, but I then asked myself, why would I go to high lamp or wide open iris, and throw 60-70k contrast in the bin, when it looks pretty close already? DI or not.

BTW I can get 130 nits easily now with my new projector. But I would likely reduce to 100 just to gain back some contrast.

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post #22363 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:37 PM
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Therefore my value for black brightness is lower. 0.05 was needed to resolve down to level 68, I only need 0.026 to resolve down to level 81.
I don't have your experience to quantify things but I was using .005 for the black brightness in my tests because I thought it was helping. One thing if I remember correctly is the multiplier effects the level of the initial bump provided by the bb setting. Since my curves are much brighter than yours in general I needed to use a smaller black brightness value. I just remember .05 was too much when I tested. I may not be remembering this correct but will confirm tonight.

I will also try the roll off sooner and that will help me target 4000 nits as there is more room to get there at a good angle. Thanks for the info and I enjoy your analysis.

EDIT: I did confirm and see Arve also posted that the black brightness is effected by the overall multiplier - in case anyone is reading this fresh. So a brighter curve needs a lower black brightness to have the same "effective" value as it would on a darker curve.
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post #22364 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:49 PM
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The bolded is the reason I am going to try the curves.
I have the RS520 and I enjoy the image with a custom curve over the JVC HDR for almost all titles even with the improvements made by JVC. I also like that I can make those dimmer titles a little brighter if I choose. I don't think my screen and gain are extreme so I suspect many will also prefer the custom curves if they can sample ones suited for their environment. Getting locked into the JVC only HDR would not make me a happy camper so I am very grateful others figured out the curves and shared. With the tool from Avre it is actually pretty simple to try if you have a HTPC already connected. If you do try them and find ones you like I would love to see those screen shots you do.
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post #22365 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:50 PM
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The bolded is the reason I am going to try the curves.

You are correct about everything else. We agree. In fact, with my two comparison photos, I didnt touch the camera exposure, so you can actually see (And those shots were literally out of the box) that most of the brightness levels are matching except for the highlights, which it to be expected. So yes I would be watching most content at 15fl you are right except for highlights, but I then asked myself, why would I go to high lamp or wide open iris, and throw 60-70k contrast in the bin, when it looks pretty close already? DI or not.

BTW I can get 130 nits easily now with my new projector. But I would likely reduce to 100 just to gain back some contrast.
There is no need to use high lamp in HDR if you can get more than 100nits in low lamp. I get 135+nits in low lamp, so I'm happy to use this.

You don't have to throw any contrast away if you get a linker and use the DI in HDR.

You seem to be obsessed with on/off contrast, but it's not the only parameter for a good picture (as long as the black floor isn't too high or low APL scenes don't look grey, which is solved with the DI).

With the iris fully open, you do lose some native on/off contrast (I still have more than 45000:1 though so it's not that bad) but you get more ANSI contrast, which I would argue is MORE important for HDR. You also have to realise that what matters is perceived contrast and perceived black, not absolute contrast and absolute black. With a brighter picture, your pupil is more open so a raised black floor looks black as long as you don't come from a low APL scene. If you come from a low APL scene, your pupil isn't as dilated so the raised black looks grey and that used to be a problem especially in fade to black, but it's not anymore with the DI. With the DI, you get great dynamic on/off, great black floor and great ANSI contrast. It's a win-win!

For example, watch the end credits of Trolls, you'll be amazed at how black the blacks look and how colorful it looks in HDR, despite the iris being fully open. Absolute black is raised, but perceived black looks blacker than black. Honestly the HDR picture, well calibrated, is mesmerizing. I've just watched some of Lucy, there is no comparison with the bluray or the UHD Bluray in SDR BT2020. The HDR picture is really in another league altogether.

The main reason for not going SDR BT2020 is simply because that's not the way the content was mastered. Yes, it was great before we got the ability to make these custom curves and to get the DI back, but now it's simply the wrong way to look at UHD Bluray. Where do you set the slider on the player for 4000nits titles? So that it doesn't clip the highlights but gives you a dim picture, or so that the picture is bright enough at the expense of resolving details?

If you want accuracy and don't care about immersive sound, absolutely, go for bluray, but if you want immersive sound it's UHD Bluray, at least for a while. And now it looks very, very good.

If I had been able to choose at the time, I would have asked for 1080p SDR 4:4:4 12bits DCI-P3 with the least possible compression. I would have been very happy to upscale this and get a fantastic picture. But that's not what we got, and we have to do our best to reproduce the content in the best possible way.

Until we were able to get a good HDR curve, it was with SDR BT2020 because that was the least damaging way to do so. But now, really, there is no reason to convert the content in an approximative way and be happy with that.

I've been very unhappy with HDR until quite recently. Now, I'm very happy with what I see, and I wouldn't go back.
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post #22366 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 03:59 PM
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There is no need to use high lamp in HDR if you can get more than 100nits in low lamp. I get 135+nits in low lamp, so I'm happy to use this.

You don't have to throw any contrast away if you get a linker and use the DI in HDR.

You seem to be obsessed with on/off contrast, but it's not the only parameter for a good picture (as long as the black floor isn't too high or low APL scenes don't look grey, which is solved with the DI).

With the iris fully open, you do lose some native on/off contrast (I still have more than 45000:1 though so it's not that bad) but you get more ANSI contrast, which I would argue is MORE important for HDR. You also have to realise that what matters is perceived contrast and perceived black, not absolute contrast and absolute black. With a brighter picture, your pupil is more open so a raised black floor looks black as long as you don't come from a low APL scene. If you come from a low APL scene, your pupil isn't as dilated so the raised black looks grey and that used to be a problem especially in fade to black, but it's not anymore with the DI. With the DI, you get great dynamic on/off, great black floor and great ANSI contrast. It's a win-win!

For example, watch the end credits of Trolls, you'll be amazed at how black the blacks look and how colorful it looks in HDR, despite the iris being fully open. Absolute black is raised, but perceived black looks blacker than black. Honestly the HDR picture, well calibrated, is mesmerizing. I've just watched some of Lucy, there is no comparison with the bluray or the UHD Bluray in SDR BT2020. The HDR picture is really in another league altogether.

The main reason for not going SDR BT2020 is simply because that's not the way the content was mastered. Yes, it was great before we got the ability to make these custom curves and to get the DI back, but now it's simply the wrong way to look at UHD Bluray. Where do you set the slider on the player for 4000nits titles? So that it doesn't clip the highlights but gives you a dim picture, or so that the picture is bright enough at the expense of resolving details?

If you want accuracy and don't care about immersive sound, absolutely, go for bluray, but if you want immersive sound it's UHD Bluray, at least for a while. And now it looks very, very good.

If I had been able to choose at the time, I would have asked for 1080p SDR 4:4:4 12bits DCI-P3 with the least possible compression. I would have been very happy to upscale this and get a fantastic picture. But that's not what we got, and we have to do our best to reproduce the content in the best possible way.

Until we were able to get a good HDR curve, it was with SDR BT2020 because that was the least damaging way to do so. But now, really, there is no reason to convert the content in an approximative way and be happy with that.

I've been very unhappy with HDR until quite recently. Now, I'm very happy with what I see, and I wouldn't go back.
Looks like I am going to have to Pony up and try this Arve tool.

Is there some kind of mutual agreement on what the best variables are yet? 100 nit peak whites.... What variables are you using? Or are you still trying a new one every day?

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post #22367 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 04:04 PM
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Looks like I am going to have to Pony up and try this Arve tool.

Is there some kind of mutual agreement on what the best variables are yet? 100 nit peak whites.... What variables are you using? Or are you still trying a new one every day?
Just look at my recent posts, I list all the parameters I'm using in my most recent curve. Also look at the post about setting brightness to avoid a raised black floor in 75% of the titles.

800nits max brightness (or slightly lower) should work pretty well to start with.

I would encourage you though to keep the DI fully open and look at intrascene (ANSI) contrast vs closing the DI to get more on/off contrast. With HDR, you're not looking for the same elements as with SDR.

You can tune your curve so that it looks less bright, but I would keep the iris fully open to max ANSI contrast. Then if you're annoyed by the raised black floor on fade to black (especially from low APL scenes) , get a Linker
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post #22368 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 04:33 PM
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+1



I hope this helps but I need to get back to work
Once again, more confusion. I tried to use the WIP branch but couldn't even get started. The readme says to enter menu.py. From there where do I go? I tried "ga" command for "adjust gamma curve" but it crashes out saying "not upported instance of float and nonetype". I though maybe I should do "setup HDR" command (1), but Manni said in an about post not to use that. I tried and had to quit as it seemed like it was wrong. How do we use WIP? Should I be entering ga command?
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post #22369 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 05:04 PM
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Not being able to use WIP I decided to try a custom curve with the main branch. 400-100-300-4000-0.5-0-1 with contrast/brightness 0 in jvc and panny. Looking at Ray's white clipping I don't clip until 4000 nits. Good so far. Put on my major contrast testing scene - the sky scene in Pan. HUGE crush in the sky. I had to move the contrast control to -17 until there was no crush. Per Manni's instructions I thought that if Ray's pattern showed no crush until 4000 then I'd be good. I'm misunderstanding something or not doing something right. Next time I will try making the curve with this sky scene up instead of Ray's pattern and see if that helps me find the right settings...?
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post #22370 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 05:05 PM
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Once again, more confusion. I tried to use the WIP branch but couldn't even get started. The readme says to enter menu.py. From there where do I go? I tried "ga" command for "adjust gamma curve" but it crashes out saying "not upported instance of float and nonetype". I though maybe I should do "setup HDR" command (1), but Manni said in an about post not to use that. I tried and had to quit as it seemed like it was wrong. How do we use WIP? Should I be entering ga command?
You need to load the default curve first time. Use option lp then select 2 for HDR PQ. Then the menu is much different but basically you can modify this curve and set the parameters you want. After that you can save your work and just load the curve you want to play with next time you use the tool. I totally skip the setup HDR and all that and go straight to the curve settings with "ga" after loading the default or my previous efforts.

Hope that helps.
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post #22371 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 05:08 PM
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I don't agree. If you want an accurate image you spend the time it takes to get that image so you CAN enjoy the movies and not worrying about whether things are right or not. With HD content this is simple because all the tools and specs are well established to dial in the image to the director's intent. HDR is completely the opposite, so trying to get the right image is taking a lot of trial and error for the moment. Whether we will ever really have a true spec for projection playback is debatable, but there is obviously room for improvement right now. If all you want to do is sit back and enjoy the movie, I would recommend you skip HDR right now and tell the player HDR OFF. This would give you 4K but you don't have to worry about the rest of the details.
I might just do that, until I can properly calibrate HDR!
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post #22372 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 05:14 PM
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SDR is still your preferred version because you're not watching what a custom curve would give you, and because you can't use the DI in HDR

HDR is marginally better in the new models, as in easier to use, but it's still an approximate Gamma D curve, even if you can now get the low end right without raising the black floor (which was, I agree, the biggest downside of the implementation of Gamma D in our models).

I also doubt that you can use one curve to play all the titles in an optimal way, which is another advantage of a well-designed custom curve.

I used to prefer SDR BT2020 (as you know), but a custom curve and the DI thanks to the linker, and you really won't look back.

I have deleted my SDR BT2020 user mode, so that says a lot
So all I need now is a competent calibrator to get HDR tuned in!
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post #22373 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 05:17 PM
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Looks like I am going to have to Pony up and try this Arve tool.

Is there some kind of mutual agreement on what the best variables are yet? 100 nit peak whites.... What variables are you using? Or are you still trying a new one every day?
My 2 cents is to find the multiplier (from the max brightness and peak white) that works best for you. Generally speaking the range of curves that looks good is not a large range. I like curves in the 4.5 to 6 range in my environment but others like 7 to 9 or more. That range really only shifts the curve left or right (left for lower multipliers = brighter). After that it is just picking the roll off point and where to clip. With the latest wip Manni is suggesting leave that at default so not much to think about there. If you stick with 4000 for the hard clip that is also one less decision. Everything below the roll off point is pretty much the same on all curves (unless you play with the black or region settings) so they really only differ after the rolloff and where they sit left to right on a plot. I would guess a 7 or 8 multiplier might be good for you but it varies by preference. You could start with Manni's 800 settings and if it is a tad too dark try a 700 and see if you like it better. I know you are way more versed in the science of a good image but I hope you might find one you will say is worth the trouble.

EDIT: Without the linker and your 620 if I recall you will also have to be very careful you are using a custom curve as the JVC will want to force you into its HDR. It can do this at strange times like if you pause for too long so just be sure to double check what you are seeing is still the custom curve every now and then. It is pretty easy to tell them apart actually so it should not be a big deal. Once it is playing and selected it should not switch.

EDIT: To load them just put the JVC in the Picture mode you select to receive it with a custom Gamma with IMPORT set as the correction value. Hit the Pw if using the wip version on the screen where you can play with the curve settings and enter your IP for the JVC if needed. It is a different menu selection in the main version that has numeric menu choices for the most part.

Last edited by fingersdlp; 03-08-2017 at 05:51 PM.
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post #22374 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 06:21 PM
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Once again, more confusion. I tried to use the WIP branch but couldn't even get started. The readme says to enter menu.py. From there where do I go? I tried "ga" command for "adjust gamma curve" but it crashes out saying "not upported instance of float and nonetype". I though maybe I should do "setup HDR" command (1), but Manni said in an about post not to use that. I tried and had to quit as it seemed like it was wrong. How do we use WIP? Should I be entering ga command?
I have to look into why it crashes for you, but I suspect the crash will go away once you have a curve loaded. I recommend you run the "Setup HDR" command first. It will import the input level from your projector which will make the clipping points correct for both standard or super-white. It will also let you verify that the contrast and brightness setting on your source is correct (if you have a test pattern). Your other posts indicate that you have at least one of these wrong.
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post #22375 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 06:30 PM
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So all I need now is a competent calibrator to get HDR tuned in!
I just had my X750 calibrated, and I never thought this projector could look that good. I mean the images in UHD and HD just looked outstanding --a huge difference! All I could think to myself (in addition to "WOW!") was it's like I just upgraded to a better projector, which means I really won't need to upgrade for a while!!!
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post #22376 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 06:46 PM
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Not being able to use WIP I decided to try a custom curve with the main branch. 400-100-300-4000-0.5-0-1 with contrast/brightness 0 in jvc and panny. Looking at Ray's white clipping I don't clip until 4000 nits. Good so far. Put on my major contrast testing scene - the sky scene in Pan. HUGE crush in the sky. I had to move the contrast control to -17 until there was no crush. Per Manni's instructions I thought that if Ray's pattern showed no crush until 4000 then I'd be good. I'm misunderstanding something or not doing something right. Next time I will try making the curve with this sky scene up instead of Ray's pattern and see if that helps me find the right settings...?
For a test only, try 9999-100-9998-9999-0.5-0-1. This should be a true st2084 (shape) curve with no rolloff and no clipping, (but very low brightness).

Then set clip level to 10k. This should not clip any PQ content from the pan movie. Now use same curve, but with clip level of the projector set to clip at 4K. Does it clip the pan movie content? If it does, then maybe there is some content encoded above 4K on the pan disk. Just a suggestion.
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post #22377 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
...Here are the parameters for my default curve:

max bright = 900
Ref white =100
soft clip start auto (375 if you use the master branch)
Hard clip 4000nits
Black brightness 0.05
set end slope 0.75
soft clip curve type: 0
Soft clip gamma: 1

For those using the master branch:
If I change the max bright to 1000 (my darker curve) soft clip starts at 415.
If I change the max bright to 800 (my brighter curve) soft clip starts at 335.

...I don't have Arrival yet, so if anyone else has a different title that seems "too dark" with one of the curves above and a peak white of 120-150nits, please let me know and I'll check it out.
I haven't figured out yet how to use the wip version so I created your 800 version with the master branch.

800 100 335 4000 0.75 0 1

Since a previous curve: 800 100 600 4000 0.3 0 1 was a little too dark for me, I decided to also create a 600 version as well before testing. I noticed that your soft clip values were around 41.875% of the brightness value so I calculated the 600 curve soft clip at 250.

600 100 250 4000 0.75 0 1

JVC and Oppo brightness and contrast at zero. Using the Masciola patterns, both clipped very close to 4000 nits. The bar below 4000 flashed a little fainter that the bars below. I think I also noticed a slightly raised black floor with these compared to the previous 800/600 curves one but I will wait until I can figure out the wip version of the tool to attempt to deal with that.

I watched portions of Lucy and two others I recently viewed, Gatsby and Gods of Egypt. I like to test with the Gatsby mansion party scene with all the costume jewelry, bright chandeliers, and fireworks in the dark night background. While the 800 version was watchable, I preferred my 600 for the bit more brightness and punch it brought.

I then watched portions of Jupiter Ascending and Arrival. Again I could watch Jupiter with the 800 curve, but preferred my 600. With Arrival, I needed my 600 version.

My situation is different than most since I am still projecting to a 118" 16:9 painted screen so my gain is likely negative. I have not measured it.

I won't use high lamp so this was with Low Lamp, zero, Auto 2.

Now to try to figure out how to use the wip version of the tool.

Plots of the two curves attached; 600 on the left and 800 on the right.

Update: I also created an even brighter curve:

500 100 210 4000 0.75 0 1

I just barely reach the 4000 nit bar with this one. But it is bright. Second plot attached.
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post #22378 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 06:53 PM
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So I've done more testing with my new curves and I've noticed a slight raised black floor on Lucy.

This led me to investigate something that has bothered me for a while: some titles are mastered to a black level of 0nits (Black = level 64) and some titles are mastered to a black level of 0.005nits (black level = 77)...


So as far as I'm concerned, my new "universal" curve resolves down to level 81 (or 1.5%) with black at level 77 (0.005nits). It resolves up to 4000nits.
So just to be clear... as this moves so fast that anyone not down in the weeds and playing w/ another mans "tool" (Arve), it's hard to keep everything straight... you can create these "universal" curves using Arves "utility" (I just can't keep saying tool ), and we can still import them from your saved files using AutoCal?
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post #22379 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 07:00 PM
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I still prefer to use virtual brightness for peak white rather than actual brightness, which isn't relevant as you still need to play with reference white in that case.

The reason why I prefer to do so is because all the numbers are in the same frame of reference. In fact, when you use reference white to adjust brightness, the number is converted and shown as "effective", which proves that it's not the number kept for the calculations. Anyway, it's the same so use whichever makes more sense for you.
If you set black-brightness to anything other than 0 then you probably need to change it every time you change max-brightness. If you change ref-white-brightness instead the effective black-brightness changes by the same amount as the effective max-brightness. If you don't like entering ref-white-brightness as a nits value, I can add an option to enter it as a scale factor instead.
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post #22380 of 31899 Old 03-08-2017, 08:46 PM
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If you set black-brightness to anything other than 0 then you probably need to change it every time you change max-brightness. If you change ref-white-brightness instead the effective black-brightness changes by the same amount as the effective max-brightness. If you don't like entering ref-white-brightness as a nits value, I can add an option to enter it as a scale factor instead.
It does show the "effective value" for that and for some other parameters and I find that very helpful as you do the math Great work on this software.
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