Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 747 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22381 of 31902 Old 03-08-2017, 11:44 PM
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Attention all custom curve experimenters....

Huge progress last night. Finally a breakthrough!! If you are experimenting with curves do yourself a favor a forget about v1 and go straight to WIP branch! v1 was great but WIP is so far advanced its like night and day. It makes experimentation and validation so much easier. It's too late now, but I'll fill you in on the progress in the morning.
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post #22382 of 31902 Old 03-08-2017, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
If you set black-brightness to anything other than 0 then you probably need to change it every time you change max-brightness. If you change ref-white-brightness instead the effective black-brightness changes by the same amount as the effective max-brightness. If you don't like entering ref-white-brightness as a nits value, I can add an option to enter it as a scale factor instead.
Thanks for reminding this to me. My max brightness doesn't change much (100nits) so I haven't noticed a big difference in the value needed for black brightness, but it might explain a small variation.

If that's not too much trouble, yes a multiplier value would be great and would make more sense to me than playing with reference white. That might lure me away from playing with a virtual max brightness

Thanks again for all your work, this tool is really amazing and a real time-saver.

Did you have a chance to do some testing in standard mode, to see if the slight black crush I'm experiencing is due to your curve in standard or to my unit?
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post #22383 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
I don't have your experience to quantify things but I was using .005 for the black brightness in my tests because I thought it was helping. One thing if I remember correctly is the multiplier effects the level of the initial bump provided by the bb setting. Since my curves are much brighter than yours in general I needed to use a smaller black brightness value. I just remember .05 was too much when I tested. I may not be remembering this correct but will confirm tonight.

I will also try the roll off sooner and that will help me target 4000 nits as there is more room to get there at a good angle. Thanks for the info and I enjoy your analysis.

EDIT: I did confirm and see Arve also posted that the black brightness is effected by the overall multiplier - in case anyone is reading this fresh. So a brighter curve needs a lower black brightness to have the same "effective" value as it would on a darker curve.
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Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
You need to load the default curve first time. Use option lp then select 2 for HDR PQ. Then the menu is much different but basically you can modify this curve and set the parameters you want. After that you can save your work and just load the curve you want to play with next time you use the tool. I totally skip the setup HDR and all that and go straight to the curve settings with "ga" after loading the default or my previous efforts.

Hope that helps.
Oh it helped alright. Thanks so much! It was the difference between not getting anything done and making great progress for several hours. Great call!

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Originally Posted by arve View Post
I have to look into why it crashes for you, but I suspect the crash will go away once you have a curve loaded. I recommend you run the "Setup HDR" command first. It will import the input level from your projector which will make the clipping points correct for both standard or super-white. It will also let you verify that the contrast and brightness setting on your source is correct (if you have a test pattern). Your other posts indicate that you have at least one of these wrong.
1. It's what fingersdlp said above. I would think others will get tripped up on that as well.

2. Side note on a small bug - if you do a Pw when the JVC menu is open, it always fails/timesout when attempting to write the RedGamma, then recovers.

3. Can you please clarify what "Setup HDR" does compared to the "Set brightness and contrast for source". I know the later is part of the Setup HDR, but not sure what else it is doing.

4. "Set brightness and contrast for source" wasn't working for me. I had to RAISE contrast to like +10 to get the bar at 4000 nits to go green. I would have thought I needed to lower it. That is with a fresh, default loaded curve that you provide. What I wound up doing, that I THINK worked out excellent, was using a very bright scene and setting the contrast control to -15 by eye, and then doing a "Load into projector and tune with contrast control". Is that any different that using Set Brightness and Contrast for source?

5. For setting brightness with Set brightness and contrast for source, bar 68 would be green even as I raised black brightness enough to make bar 68 flash. Even if I made bar 68 quite bright it would still be green. The next bar up higher was not green. So I wound up just going by the flash (using Ray's patterns with flashing bars at intervals 60 and up).

6. Is it possible to make it automatically adjust black brightness as I raise / lower max brightness? I find adjusting max brightness more intuitive for some reason than adjusting Ref White brightness (which I understand WILL automatically adjust black brightness). Is there any difference at all between say lowering max brightness vs raising ref white, or vice-versa? I would think not since its just a ratio, but then again, because black brightness only automatically adjusts when using ref white maybe there is an important difference that we should be taken into account when tweaking?

Thank you!
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post #22384 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:06 AM
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Manni - I found I needed to use a much smaller value for black brightness compared to your 0.05. In my case it was more like 0.02. Just pointing this out so others know they should find their own value and not just assume one size fits all for this param. That said, I didn't realize that adjustments to max bright didn't automatically computer black brightness until I read Arve's post after I was done calibrating. So I will need to go back to a few of my custom gamma and recheck/redo this param according.
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post #22385 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Manni - I found I needed to use a much smaller value for black brightness compared to your 0.05. In my case it was more like 0.02. Just pointing this out so others know they should find their own value and not just assume one size fits all for this param. That said, I didn't realize that adjustments to max bright didn't automatically computer black brightness until I read Arve's post after I was done calibrating. So I will need to go back to a few of my custom gamma and recheck/redo this param according.
Thanks, I'm not surprised by this, this is why I asked people to check which value was needed and why I was reluctant to upload my curves as they are, because they are likely right for my unit but not others. Also you're using a different max brightness/multiplier than me, so you do need to adjust black brightness accordingly. It would be good to hear from people who can use one of my curves as it is to comment on the value for black brightness, that way we'll know that it's only the unit to unit variation.

I'm hoping that Arve will do some tests in standard HDMI, because he reckons most units should need no adjustment with a 0,0 setting but it looks like many of us do get black crush, and we're all using standard.

Otherwise, I can't understand the black crush. My unit doesn't need any large adjustment in HD (+2 brightness resolved down to level 18, which is as good as it gets on most of these units) and -1 on contrast resolves up to 235. In HDR, Gamma D with the recommended setting of 5 has no black crush. It does raise the black floor, so shouldn't be used, but at least it shows that my unit is in line.

Glad that you've finally made progress, looking forward to hearing your feedback on your very own Unicurve (TM)...
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post #22386 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I haven't figured out yet how to use the wip version so I created your 800 version with the master branch.

800 100 335 4000 0.75 0 1

Since a previous curve: 800 100 600 4000 0.3 0 1 was a little too dark for me, I decided to also create a 600 version as well before testing. I noticed that your soft clip values were around 41.875% of the brightness value so I calculated the 600 curve soft clip at 250.

600 100 250 4000 0.75 0 1

JVC and Oppo brightness and contrast at zero. Using the Masciola patterns, both clipped very close to 4000 nits. The bar below 4000 flashed a little fainter that the bars below. I think I also noticed a slightly raised black floor with these compared to the previous 800/600 curves one but I will wait until I can figure out the wip version of the tool to attempt to deal with that.

I watched portions of Lucy and two others I recently viewed, Gatsby and Gods of Egypt. I like to test with the Gatsby mansion party scene with all the costume jewelry, bright chandeliers, and fireworks in the dark night background. While the 800 version was watchable, I preferred my 600 for the bit more brightness and punch it brought.

I then watched portions of Jupiter Ascending and Arrival. Again I could watch Jupiter with the 800 curve, but preferred my 600. With Arrival, I needed my 600 version.

My situation is different than most since I am still projecting to a 118" 16:9 painted screen so my gain is likely negative. I have not measured it.

I won't use high lamp so this was with Low Lamp, zero, Auto 2.

Now to try to figure out how to use the wip version of the tool.

Plots of the two curves attached; 600 on the left and 800 on the right.

Update: I also created an even brighter curve:

500 100 210 4000 0.75 0 1

I just barely reach the 4000 nit bar with this one. But it is bright. Second plot attached.
Thanks for this. It's good to know you're resolving up to 4000nits without any change.

Just to clarify, I'm not really looking for an evaluation of these curves, they might or might not work for you.

Assuming you are using, as recommended, YCC 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2) 12bits in standard HDMI, what I'm interested in re feedback (wip is necessary, knowledge of metadata of titles recommended) is:

1) When setting brightness and contrast to 0,0 in both the JVC and the Player (Panny preferred as this is my player), which number do you need for black brightness to not crush black?
2) When resolving down to level 81 (77 black) instead of level 68 (64 black), do you see the improvement in the black floor for all titles mastered to 0.005nits (for example, Lucy)?
3) When resolving down to level 68 (64 black), do you see a noticeable increase in shadow detail for the remaining titles mastered to 0nits (for example, Hitman 47)?

I need this feedback to see how many people experience black crush with Arve's curves in standard, and how bad it is.

I also need this to see whether there is a potential downside re shadow details in using a Unicurve which resolves black down to 0.005nits instead of 0nits. I haven't found such a situation with actual content, so if someone finds one I'd like to look at it (title, chapter, and timecode please).

The only thing I notice is a significant improvement (as in noticeable) of the black floor for most titles, and no visible black crush for the remaining titles.

Please note that it is likely incorrect to do this, but I'm after the right effect, not after a by the book calibration that looks worse than it could

Last edited by Manni01; 03-09-2017 at 02:26 AM.
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post #22387 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 03:21 AM
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Just download 3 different curves, will give them a try tonight. Just to see if they are better than gamma D.

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post #22388 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 06:48 AM
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About the best curve...

Lets say for the case of argument there are a range of curves in use with a multiplier from 4 to 12 (bright to dark). I am happy with curves in a general range of 1-1.5 multipliers. So I might like 4.5 to 6 for example. Unless you have a good idea of your starting brightness you could test 8 different curves if you tried them in the worse possible order to find your brightness sweet spot. You could start in the middle with a multiplier of 8 and divide the distance left to the 4 or 12 values up or down to minimize the curves you need to try. If 8 is too dark try 6 if that is too bright try 7, etc. So you can dial in a curve multiplier for brightness with 3 or 4 attempts and fine tune after that. If you just pick 3 random curves (unless you based it on your brightness off the screen) it will take luck to get a good fit. I would not want people to give up too soon if they picked bad examples to test for their environment. Of course the problem is different titles are mastered to different levels. So you should use one you are familiar with to decide and avoid ones that have been deemed dim like Arrival and maybe Star Trek Beyond (I don't have this one - just what I read). I like to use Fury Road (4k nit master) and The Revenent (1k nit master). Added bonus is I get to watch them over and over.

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post #22389 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for this. It's good to know you're resolving up to 4000nits without any change.

Just to clarify, I'm not really looking for an evaluation of these curves, they might or might not work for you.

Assuming you are using, as recommended, YCC 4:4:4 (or 4:2:2) 12bits in standard HDMI, what I'm interested in re feedback (wip is necessary, knowledge of metadata of titles recommended) is:

1) When setting brightness and contrast to 0,0 in both the JVC and the Player (Panny preferred as this is my player), which number do you need for black brightness to not crush black?
2) When resolving down to level 81 (77 black) instead of level 68 (64 black), do you see the improvement in the black floor for all titles mastered to 0.005nits (for example, Lucy)?
3) When resolving down to level 68 (64 black), do you see a noticeable increase in shadow detail for the remaining titles mastered to 0nits (for example, Hitman 47)?

I need this feedback to see how many people experience black crush with Arve's curves in standard, and how bad it is.

I also need this to see whether there is a potential downside re shadow details in using a Unicurve which resolves black down to 0.005nits instead of 0nits. I haven't found such a situation with actual content, so if someone finds one I'd like to look at it (title, chapter, and timecode please).

The only thing I notice is a significant improvement (as in noticeable) of the black floor for most titles, and no visible black crush for the remaining titles.

Please note that it is likely incorrect to do this, but I'm after the right effect, not after a by the book calibration that looks worse than it could

Manni, hi it was late when I worked on this last night so I went right in with the 900/375 and resolving for level 81 (77 black) using a bb setting of 0.019. I was running low lamp, wide open and only had a chance to check out lucy which looked excellent.

I also make a quick 2nd curve with the 800/335 and it does pop a bit more and like this one as well.

the bb setting seems quite sensitive to very small changes so this may vary from projector to projector for best results? The cool thing was I had the patterns paused and was making tweaks to bb and watching the changes occur in near real time after clicking the go button. very nice!

I do have hitman as well, I'll go back and run the other tests over the next few days and report back on a curve that resolves to 68.


Thanks again for all this amazing discovery work and Arve for creating this software masterpiece. JVC should hire the both of you...
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post #22390 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 06:56 AM
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Curve Hard Clip Question

I was testing a curve that hard clips to 1100 nits and another that goes to 4000 nits. In reviewing the RM HDR patterns sure enough they each clipped where they were supposed to. What got me thinking is when I looked at the 1100 nit clip point with the curve that goes to 4000 of course all the bars were visible thru the range shown on the screen. At the 1100 point they still seemed a fair bit gray. If we watch a 1100 nit mastered movie on a 4000 nit hard clip curve is that level of gray I saw what is getting used for the maximum highlight? If it is our eyes and brains must adapt because I would think that gray would not pass for white (ignoring colors for discussion). I am never afraid to ask a dumb question so here I am wondering if I just got this wrong? I suppose it is only the "highlights" that would get this treatment but still I would think it would be an obvious bad fit but it clearly is not as watching 1000 nit masters on 4000 nit hard clip curves does not raise any alarm bells. Anyone have a thought on this?

Thanks
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post #22391 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Manni, hi it was late when I worked on this last night so I went right in with the 900/375 and resolving for level 81 (77 black) using a bb setting of 0.019. I was running low lamp, wide open and only had a chance to check out lucy which looked excellent.

I also make a quick 2nd curve with the 800/335 and it does pop a bit more and like this one as well.

the bb setting seems quite sensitive to very small changes so this may vary from projector to projector for best results? The cool thing was I had the patterns paused and was making tweaks to bb and watching the changes occur in near real time after clicking the go button. very nice!

I do have hitman as well, I'll go back and run the other tests over the next few days and report back on a curve that resolves to 68.


Thanks again for all this amazing discovery work and Arve for creating this software masterpiece. JVC should hire the both of you...

Thanks for the feedback and glad you liked the new settings.


Anything that helps the black floor in HDr is good for me (within reason, no shadow detail in Gamma D wasn't a good enough compromise))


Looking forward to hearing about Hitman, I couldn't see any detrimental black crush but I didn't have much time.
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post #22392 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks for the feedback and glad you liked the new settings.


Anything that helps the black floor in HDr is good for me (within reason, no shadow detail in Gamma D wasn't a good enough compromise))


Looking forward to hearing about Hitman, I couldn't see any detrimental black crush but I didn't have much time.
I have not commented on the black brightness setting much as I have been changing too many variables to know for sure. I do like that when using it I can set brightness in the Panasonic to +1 to resolve the RM patterns. I recently did a rough gray calibration for HDR by dialing down the blue gain to get close to 100% at full white. I also added a little blue offset. I am not sure if adding that offset is a good idea or not and I am not sure if it has an effect on the black floor - it did dial in the deltaE better. I have not perceived that blue offset having an impact on the black floor but I have not tested enough to know for sure. With more testing I will have a better idea. I hear autocal is not working well (red push) with the new models so I have not done one. Hoping I will hear they fixed it before I do it. That's why I just did the rough one using the gain and offset control (blue only). If I should be chastised for that please let me know. Thanks.

Edit: I used blue offset +3 If I recall. blue gain -11. fyi
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post #22393 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 08:20 AM
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@Manni01 ,

I was able to use Arves WIP last night and tried six different settings:

800 with BB @.026
900 with BB @.026

800 with BB @.035
900 with BB @.035

800 with BB @.05
900 with BB @.05

I didn't have any black crush on any of these settings, but with BB @.05, black floor was elevated slightly (not horribly so, but a tad higher than the other settings). It was getting late and I ultimately settled on 800 with BB @.026 for now, but will revisit the next time I have a few hours to break out all the gear (probably late next week). Each of these settings are vastly superior to Gamma D, which is unwatchable in comparison to these custom curves. I'm using the Oppo with 0/0 settings as well as 0/0 in the JVC. I can resolve just up to 4000 Nits, but maybe just a shade under...I can see the box just to the left of 4000 barely blink, but the 4000 box is almost impossible to see, but if I take Contrast to -1, the box to the right of 4000 starts to blink, so I just backed it to 0. I checked out the overpass scene in Deadpool and didn't see any white crush in the clouds. I also looked at the transformation scene in the warehouse (where he becomes Deadpool), and the shadow detail was amazing. All this was on Low power with the Iris wide open.

Now I need to decide if I want to spring for a Linker or not in order to save myself the trouble of changing the gamma when the movie starts and to enable the Iris. Decisions, decisions.
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post #22394 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Pardon me for the self-quote, but this thread is pretty fast moving, and I am hoping to understand what is going on here. I've re-attached the Screen Captures as well.

Stanger89 had replied, which I appreciate, but his expectation from the curves, the same as mine, as far as the effect on highlight clipping, is the opposite of what I'm actually seeing.

Where am I going wrong?

Don
Sorry, I don't really have any answers for ya, I'm still using the curve I made manually, but I'm going to have to try and really use Arve's tool.

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Originally Posted by wse View Post
I wonder how many hours many of you are tweaking vs watching and enjoying movies it seems like tweaking is the goal here!
Well, I'm still sitting here just enjoying the curve I spent about an hour making many weeks ago

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Another reason I prefer SDR - its how the film was made originally (Except for 200 Million dollar tentpole movies), HDR is currently an afterthought for the most part.
The problem is, if we're talking UHD Blu-ray, there is no SDR grade. "SDR+Rec.2020" is an HDR grade, it's just converted to something else by your player. Unless we're going to give up on UHD Blu-ray and everything else it brings to the table, we have to deal with HDR grades.
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post #22395 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
...I'm using the Oppo with 0/0 settings as well as 0/0 in the JVC. I can resolve just up to 4000 Nits, but maybe just a shade under...I can see the box just to the left of 4000 barely blink, but the 4000 box is almost impossible to see, but if I take Contrast to -1, the box to the right of 4000 starts to blink, so I just backed it to 0. I checked out the overpass scene in Deadpool and didn't see any white crush in the clouds. I also looked at the transformation scene in the warehouse (where he becomes Deadpool), and the shadow detail was amazing. All this was on Low power with the Iris wide open.

Now I need to decide if I want to spring for a Linker or not in order to save myself the trouble of changing the gamma when the movie starts and to enable the Iris. Decisions, decisions.
That is exactly what I see with the Oppo. Bar left of 4000 flashes faintly. Set contrast in RS500 to -1 and bar to the right of 4000 flashes noticeably.

The Linker is totally worth it once you get it working in your setup. You wouldn't even realize it was there if it wasn't for the increased video sync times.
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post #22396 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 09:26 AM
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So all I need now is a competent calibrator to get HDR tuned in!
Get on Chad B or Accucal's schedule. In the mean time, use SDR BT.2020 or try a custom gamma if you like to tinker.
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post #22397 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 09:31 AM
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Dave we are getting very similar results, I ended up with bb .019 and both JVC and UB900 zeroed out.

I would definitely recommend the linker. the DI was engaging in several scenes in Lucy and thought it looked excellent.



@Manni01 - my SDR/BT2020 JVC profile is also gone, integral disconnected for now. I don't see a great reason to go back to the UB900 SDR slider.

especially now as we're getting more granular curve control as the weeks pass by. I'm guessing no new JVC's until fall 2018 so this is a remarkable turn of events that will easily hold over until the next big thing.
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post #22398 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Dave we are getting very similar results, I ended up with bb .019 and both JVC and UB900 zeroed out.

I would definitely recommend the linker. the DI was engaging in several scenes in Lucy and thought it looked excellent.



@Manni01 - my SDR/BT2020 JVC profile is also gone, integral disconnected for now. I don't see a great reason to go back to the UB900 SDR slider.

especially now as we're getting more granular curve control as the weeks pass by. I'm guessing no new JVC's until fall 2018 so this is a remarkable turn of events that will easily hold over until the next big thing.


The custom gammas for HDR is the " Next Big Thing " it appears ( other than the RS4500 ). You guys are rock'n it !
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post #22399 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Get on Chad B or Accucal's schedule. In the mean time, use SDR BT.2020 or try a custom gamma if you like to tinker.
I've used Jeff (Accucal) twice before with good results. I thought Chad was the premier JVC guy. I haven't seen any comments about Jeff's work on the JVC custom Gamma calibration, compared to Chad. Is he doing much the same work?

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post #22400 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 10:12 AM
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I've used Jeff (Accucal) twice before with good results. I thought Chad was the premier JVC guy. I haven't seen any comments about Jeff's work on the JVC custom Gamma calibration, compared to Chad. Is he doing much the same work?
Jeff knows JVC's and HDR too. I have him scheduled to calibrate my RS4500, so I'll give a full report.
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post #22401 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 10:51 AM
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Jeff knows JVC's and HDR too. I have him scheduled to calibrate my RS4500, so I'll give a full report.

Jeff calibrated my Sony projector several years ago and did an excellent job.
Chad B is coming in a couple of weeks to calibrate my JVC and I am looking forward to his visit.
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post #22402 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 10:59 AM
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I also have jeff scheduled to do audio and video sometime in june for my rs500 i have given up on trying to make hdr look good. I recently added the sony 800 player to my samsung 8500 ( which i use the integral for hdr) The sony does convert hdr to srd but it does a poor job imo. It lightens everything so much that the black levels look like my cheap dlp projector. The sony does not seem to work with the integral at all. The sony does everything else great, better than the samsung. It is fantastic on regular blu rays. better than my oppo 103 and samsung. It will be staying in my rack. So for now i will just get by with regular uhd and blu ray which looks stunning on this projector. I t will be even better after jeff visits me. He did my theater about 4 years ago. Ofcourse everything he worked on then is now long gone. This hobby is expensive but worth it.

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post #22403 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 11:26 AM
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@Manni01 ,

I was able to use Arves WIP last night and tried six different settings:

800 with BB @.026
900 with BB @.026

800 with BB @.035
900 with BB @.035

800 with BB @.05
900 with BB @.05

I didn't have any black crush on any of these settings, but with BB @.05, black floor was elevated slightly (not horribly so, but a tad higher than the other settings). It was getting late and I ultimately settled on 800 with BB @.026 for now, but will revisit the next time I have a few hours to break out all the gear (probably late next week). Each of these settings are vastly superior to Gamma D, which is unwatchable in comparison to these custom curves. I'm using the Oppo with 0/0 settings as well as 0/0 in the JVC. I can resolve just up to 4000 Nits, but maybe just a shade under...I can see the box just to the left of 4000 barely blink, but the 4000 box is almost impossible to see, but if I take Contrast to -1, the box to the right of 4000 starts to blink, so I just backed it to 0. I checked out the overpass scene in Deadpool and didn't see any white crush in the clouds. I also looked at the transformation scene in the warehouse (where he becomes Deadpool), and the shadow detail was amazing. All this was on Low power with the Iris wide open.

Now I need to decide if I want to spring for a Linker or not in order to save myself the trouble of changing the gamma when the movie starts and to enable the Iris. Decisions, decisions.
Hi Dave,

Thanks a lot for this feedback, that's really good to know and very useful. Just to clarify, I'm not expecting anyone to use the same values for black brightness.

What you're supposed to do is put up the clip black pattern, and set black brightness to resolve down to the level you want. So when you get a chance please do the testing as explained in my earlier post and report back. There are different things to check with different type of content.

Deadpool will never clip highlights with a 4000nits curve as it's a 1000nits title. You need to look at a 4000nits title such as Mad Max (or Pan apparently) to check for highlight clipping.

It's normal to have the last bar before 4000nits just visible. 4000 should never blink, just like black (64 or 77) should never blink either. There is no need to make the bar before 4000nits super visible or you lose brightness/contrast.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Based on the feedback at this time, I won't share my curves with the black brightness values set for my unit as there is too much unit to unit variation. People with the wip branch can use all my settings and reproduce the curve, tuning black brightness according to their unit and adjusting max brightness to get the brightness they require. The only parameter that might need adjusting is the soft end curve, which might need to be lowered if you're targeting lower than 700nits or so. The mower max brightness, the lower SEC. Also, if you don't use wip, you need to adjust the soft clip start point as you adjust max brightness. As Arve reminded us, black brightness needs to be adjusted when you change max brightness, so unless you use reference white to adjust the brightness of the curve remember to check bb as well.

I might share one curve at 800nits for others to check out, as it's slightly better than my 140V2, which was slightly crushing shadow detail.

I still need to watch more content before doing so.
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post #22404 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 11:37 AM
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I also have jeff scheduled to do audio and video sometime in june for my rs500 i have given up on trying to make hdr look good. I recently added the sony 800 player to my samsung 8500 ( which i use the integral for hdr) The sony does convert hdr to srd but it does a poor job imo. It lightens everything so much that the black levels look like my cheap dlp projector. The sony does not seem to work with the integral at all. The sony does everything else great, better than the samsung. It is fantastic on regular blu rays. better than my oppo 103 and samsung. It will be staying in my rack. So for now i will just get by with regular uhd and blu ray which looks stunning on this projector. I t will be even better after jeff visits me. He did my theater about 4 years ago. Ofcourse everything he worked on then is now long gone. This hobby is expensive but worth it.
I'm curious why you bought the Sony and not a Panasonic UB900 ? The UB900 has been a rock star of a player for 4K UHD and Blu Ray so far !
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post #22405 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Looks like I am going to have to Pony up and try this Arve tool.
Funny, I knew you were going to explore this two weeks before you did.

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Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
For a test only, try 9999-100-9998-9999-0.5-0-1. This should be a true st2084 (shape) curve with no rolloff and no clipping, (but very low brightness).

Then set clip level to 10k. This should not clip any PQ content from the pan movie. Now use same curve, but with clip level of the projector set to clip at 4K. Does it clip the pan movie content? If it does, then maybe there is some content encoded above 4K on the pan disk. Just a suggestion.
Great, thanks. Will try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
...
1) When setting brightness and contrast to 0,0 in both the JVC and the Player (Panny preferred as this is my player), which number do you need for black brightness to not crush black?
2) When resolving down to level 81 (77 black) instead of level 68 (64 black), do you see the improvement in the black floor for all titles mastered to 0.005nits (for example, Lucy)?
3) When resolving down to level 68 (64 black), do you see a noticeable increase in shadow detail for the remaining titles mastered to 0nits (for example, Hitman 47)?
Wait - which black bar in Ray's patterns should I be targetting so that it is barely flashing? I use the big bars pattern (the one with all the little bars is always way to "bright" so I don't find it works to set black level for me at all). I've been setting black brightness in Arve's tool so that the bar to the right of level 64 is just barely visible from my seat. Is that the right bar to be focusing this on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
About the best curve...

Lets say for the case of argument there are a range of curves in use with a multiplier from 4 to 12 (bright to dark). I am happy with curves in a general range of 1-1.5 multipliers. So I might like 4.5 to 6 for example. Unless you have a good idea of your starting brightness you could test 8 different curves if you tried them in the worse possible order to find your brightness sweet spot. You could start in the middle with a multiplier of 8 and divide the distance left to the 4 or 12 values up or down to minimize the curves you need to try. If 8 is too dark try 6 if that is too bright try 7, etc. So you can dial in a curve multiplier for brightness with 3 or 4 attempts and fine tune after that. If you just pick 3 random curves (unless you based it on your brightness off the screen) it will take luck to get a good fit. I would not want people to give up too soon if they picked bad examples to test for their environment. Of course the problem is different titles are mastered to different levels. So you should use one you are familiar with to decide and avoid ones that have been deemed dim like Arrival and maybe Star Trek Beyond (I don't have this one - just what I read). I like to use Fury Road (4k nit master) and The Revenent (1k nit master). Added bonus is I get to watch them over and over.
When I'm done I'll have customized dim, medium and bright curves. Then when I'm watching a movie I'll pick from among them depending on how dark the movie is. This may not always be needed in everyone's case, but with my dim setup I'll take the boost on darker titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Dave we are getting very similar results, I ended up with bb .019 and both JVC and UB900 zeroed out.
I noticed with the black brightness control we have such fine grain control over the brightness of the last bar so I'm wondering - what do you use as the ideal point to set the level? I am doing it so that the bar to the right of 64 is just BARELY visible from my seat. But I could make it more visible, still without raising level 64. So I am wondering where do you draw that line - at just barely visible?

Quote:
I'm guessing no new JVC's until fall 2018 so this is a remarkable turn of events that will easily hold over until the next big thing.
I've been wondering about that. Was hoping for new options at CEDIA this fall. Especially anything that will go brighter. Where do you think they can take the series from here? Seems like it could be very minor changes until the point that lasers come down in price and maybe we get a sub $15k pj option with lasers in a year or two? I need 3000+ lumens now that I'm on an HDR kick....
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post #22406 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 11:48 AM
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I'm curious why you bought the Sony and not a Panasonic UB900 ? The UB900 has been a rock star of a player for 4K UHD and Blu Ray so far !
Good question I still may buy the panasonic and move the sony to my family room 70 inch 4k set. I am returning the samsung to amazon it is just under the 30 days that is why i got the sony quickly without much research. Thanks again for the great service with the jvc. You were correct about it being a big upgrade over the 4910. Blu ray looks so good now i reallu should not be worried about hdr right now.

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post #22407 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 11:58 AM
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Good question I still may buy the panasonic and move the sony to my family room 70 inch 4k set. I am returning the samsung to amazon it is just under the 30 days that is why i got the sony quickly without much research. Thanks again for the great service with the jvc. You were correct about it being a big upgrade over the 4910. Blu ray looks so good now i reallu should not be worried about hdr right now.
Thank you! The Panny has been a great player - first with my RS600, and now with my RS4500. Get one ! Get Best Buy to price match the lowest price you can find on line, and return the Samsung as a down payment on it !
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post #22408 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:04 PM
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Wait - which black bar in Ray's patterns should I be targetting so that it is barely flashing? I use the big bars pattern (the one with all the little bars is always way to "bright" so I don't find it works to set black level for me at all). I've been setting black brightness in Arve's tool so that the bar to the right of level 64 is just barely visible from my seat. Is that the right bar to be focusing this on?
Hi Ric,


Please re-read the whole post you quoted. You can resolve down to 68 (68 blinking, black 64 not blinking) or you can resolve down to 81 (81 blinking, black 77 not blinking). I'm asking for different tests with different content to see if we can use a single Unicurve resolving down to 81 (better black floor for most titles, which are mastered to 0.005nits black, not 0nits black, with no loss of shadow details that I could detect in my limited testing for the remaining titles) or if we also need a curve resolving down to 68 for titles mastered to 0nits black.
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post #22409 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:09 PM
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Jeff knows JVC's and HDR too. I have him scheduled to calibrate my RS4500, so I'll give a full report.

Craig when do you have Jeff coming? How does he rank in comparison to ChadB in JVC and Audio? I want a full blown calibration done in my house.

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post #22410 of 31902 Old 03-09-2017, 12:22 PM
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Craig when do you have Jeff coming? How does he rank in comparison to ChadB in JVC and Audio? I want a full blown calibration done in my house.
Jeff is going to be here in early May. I've never used Chad, but by all accounts he does a great job. Jeff has calibrated my Lumis twice.

I don't think you can go wrong with either one. It's a big country, and one person couldn't cover all the home theater calibrations - we are lucky to have two great calibrators to choose from.
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