Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 749 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 84660Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #22441 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 06:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1564 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Is there a PDF or good doc on working with WIP? This thread moves pretty fast and the important posts get lost in the haystack. Too bad Arve's work isn't discussed in a separate thread with sticky notes at the top for easy reference like the other JVC threads.

EDIT: Wookii's Gamma Curve Generation with Arve's Tool.pdf
That's for the first version, not the wip version, unfortunately...

Sony 85900F
Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b
Dual JL Audio D110
Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Triple black velvet bat cave
asharma is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22442 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 06:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sonichart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: East Dundee, IL
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 689 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I've done more testing with the lastest curves and here is the latest:

- I've settled for a max brightness of 800nits. With my 135nits effective (low lamp, iris fully open, DI on auto2), this gives me the best compromise: decent native on/off (45000:1), excellent black levels (especially when the DI kicks in), best possible ANSI contrast, no fan noise. The picture is punchy and contrasty. I think I'll settle for that.
- At 800nits max brightness, black brightness had to be reduced. 0.02 is enough to resolve down to 0.005nits (black at level 77, resolving down to level 81). If I wanted to resolve down to level 64, I would only need 0.03.
- I have done more tests with actual content and I've now settled to resolving down to level 81 (black at 77). Better black floor in many titles, and no visible black crush in the others.
- It seems like 4000nits titles (all mastered to 0.005nits black) do not benefit as much from the better black floor as the titles mastered to 1000nits/0.005nits, such as Lucy. I tried a few dark 1000nits titles, including The Revenant (mastered to 0nits black), and I couldn't see any visible black crush resolving only to 0.005nits.
- I've tested the usual: The Shallows, Mad Max, Lucy, Pacific Rim, they all looked amazing, so I'm very happy with this new Unicurve. So to sum up my settings with the wip branch:
Max bright: 800nits
Ref white: 100nits
Black brightness: 0.02 (resolving down to 0.005nits/level 81 on my unit for black at level 77)
Soft clip start: auto (335 effective if you're not using wip yet))
Hard clip: 4000nits
SEC: 0.75
Soft curve type: 0
Soft curve gamma: 1
This should work very well for anyone with around 130-140nits peak white (it doesn't matter if in low lamp or high lamp). Less than that, lower max brightness, more than that raise max brightness.
I'm done for this round of testing, I'm going to watch some movies over the next couple of weeks and I'll report back if there is anything worth reporting.
I attach the low-res version of the two curves I've been testing, but I haven't tried them in low-res. They should be imported by the JVC Autocal software, as all the previous curves. If the feedback is good, I'll link them to the first post of the JVC Autocal thread.
They are meant to be used with the JVC set to 0,0 and the player set to 0,0 as well.
The black levels might not be right for your unit, and the curve might be too bright or too dim for your setup. There is nothing I can do about that, but you can: use the wip branch of Arve's tool to create your own curve and do it right, or hire someone to do it .

Good luck!
Awesome! Going to spend some time with this tomorrow. Thx!!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Manni01 likes this.

JVC RS600 ¤ 130" Wide Seymour XD 2.35:1
Denon x4200 ¤ Onkyo M5010 ¤ iNuke 3000 ¤ 7.2.2
HTPC GTX1080 + MadVR is my master now ¤ Zidoo X8
sonichart is offline  
post #22443 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 07:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 635 Post(s)
Liked: 828
I loaded Manni's Custom PQ Gamma JVC-800-335-4000 (Black=77).jgd via JVC autocal software, but had to set Brightness to +6 in order to see level 81 slightly blink. I realize that these curves aren't for everyone, so next tried to use Arve's code after install Python. I looked at Wookii's Gamma Curve Generation with Arve's Tool.pdf, but it seems to written for the Main code.

I'm reading the README.md file and will hopefully be able to figure it out and create my own using Manni's parameters as a starting point.
Manni01 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 03-09-2017 at 08:21 PM.
stevenjw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22444 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 07:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 5,908
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1394 Post(s)
Liked: 2127
Steve,

I jumped into this last night and the WIP program is easy to learn once you get into it. I printed out the PDF for the regular version and once I experimented with the WIP, I feel confident in what I'm doing now. Just give it a try and you'll be surprised at how easy it is to pick it up.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
My Atmos Renovation Part 1 http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...odyssey-part-1
My Atmos Renovation Part 2 http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...odyssey-part-2
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #22445 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 07:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 5,908
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1394 Post(s)
Liked: 2127
@Manni01 ,

Here's what I came up with tonight:

Max bright: 800nits
Ref white: 100nits
Black brightness: 0.005 (resolving down to 0.005nits/level 81 on my unit for black at level 77)
Soft clip start: auto (335 effective if you're not using wip yet))
Hard clip: 4000nits
SEC: 0.75
Soft curve type: 0
Soft curve gamma: 1

If I set to .01, I can resolve down to 68 on my unit, making black level at 64. Not sure if I should stick with 77 or go down to 64 though. What do you think? I tested my black levels and I haven't raised the black floor at all.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
My Atmos Renovation Part 1 http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...odyssey-part-1
My Atmos Renovation Part 2 http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...odyssey-part-2
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #22446 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 07:45 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,699
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5225 Post(s)
Liked: 5464
https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools/tree/wip

load the menu.py, you will see the screen below.

first action is lp and then 2 to load the default HDR curve.

ga will bring up the configuration page




set the bw to 100, bm to 800 and also adjust the bb as well resolving down to level 81 (black = 0.005nits = level 77). My # may not be your # in this example, check to be sure as this appears to vary between units.



Pw will prompt to write the file to the projector.
zombie10k is online now  
post #22447 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 08:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 3,230
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1215 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Hi guys, I was having a discussion with one of my compatriot forum members whose purchased the RS620 (former 600 owner) and also demo'd an RS520 in home before it. I wanted to post to my fellow RS500/600 owners here as many of you guys are the long time JVC guys and probably still here as opposed to having jumped into the new models. So what I was refuting with said fellow member was that claim that JVC had made a lens improvement between the 520 and 620. He mentions that he and another well regard local member here both are of the same view. My stance was this simply wouldn't happen without JVC making a significant song and dance about as it would be absurd if they didn't acknowledge it in the specs. Also we are talking plastic lens here so how exactly would they manage to refine the plastic that much more.It's not like JVC snuck a glass lens in for the extra $$ and didn't tell anyone . My take was that what he was more likely observing was sample variation and that he was getting his money's worth from the 620's hand picked components, something not many of us have been able to say for the 500 and 600, myself included. Anyone here, Craig, Mike, Kris, Ekki, Seegs, Manni, hear anything to suggest otherwise?

Last edited by OzHDHT; 03-09-2017 at 08:28 PM.
OzHDHT is offline  
post #22448 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 08:25 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,322
Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11657 Post(s)
Liked: 9219
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Hi guys, I was having a discussion with one of my compatriot forum members whose purchased the RS620 (former 600 owner) and also demo'd an RS520 in home before it. I wanted to post to my fellow RS500/600 owners here as many of you guys are the long time JVC guys and probably still here as opposed to having jumped into the new models. So what I was refuting with said fellow member was that claim that JVC had made a lens improvement between the 520 and 620. He mentions that he and another well regard local member here both are of the same view. My stance was this simply wouldn't happen without JVC making a significant song and dance about as it would be absurd if they didn't acknowledge it in the specs. Also we are talking plastic lens here so how exactly would they manage to refine the plastic that much more.It's not like JVC snuck a glass lens in for the extra $$ and didn't tell anyone . My take was that what he was more likely observing was sample variation and that he was getting his money's worth from the 620's hand picked components, something not many of us have been able to say for the 500 and 600, myself included. Anyone here, Craig, Mark, Kris, Ekki, Seegs, Manni, hear anything to suggest otherwise?
Same lens on this years models as last year. Been telling them this in the thread for two months now. Also would like to point out, the JVC lens on the 4xx, 5xx and 6xx series have always been all glass lens. I do not recall JVC ever using plastic in any of their projector lens.
stevenjw, billqs and OzHDHT like this.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 03-09-2017 at 08:43 PM.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #22449 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 08:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
OzHDHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Antipodes aka Oz
Posts: 3,230
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1215 Post(s)
Liked: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Same lens on this years models as last year. Been telling them this in the thread for two months now. Also would like to point out, the JVC lens on the 4xx, 5xx and 6xx series have always been all glass lens. I do not recall JVC ever using plastic in any of their projector lens.

Yeah thanks Mike, I remember you mentioning it before. Glass of course, I was thinking of the Sony 6xx series etc.! On top of no lens change year to year, the idea of any further lens refinement between 520 and 620 doesn't add up to me.

Last edited by OzHDHT; 03-09-2017 at 10:56 PM.
OzHDHT is offline  
post #22450 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 08:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 635 Post(s)
Liked: 828
OK, think I got it. Initially I couldn't get JVC to 0, only to 6. CR at 0. DI was on (Lamp High, IRIS 0) and not sure if that should be off when adjusting CR/BR, but I turned it off just in case. I pretty much figured out and did what Zombie outlined nicely. Then a light bulb went off in my head (not the projector) and left BR=0 in the JVC and used bb to get to where 81 flashed (guess what I had read earlier came to mind) and I settled at 0.016 for bb with the rest of the settings the same as Manni's and what Zombie listed above. Turned DI back on to Auto2.

Off to watch some UHD with new curve!!!
Manni01 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear
stevenjw is offline  
post #22451 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 08:41 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12,913
Mentioned: 78 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3639 Post(s)
Liked: 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
OK, think I got it. Initially I couldn't get JVC to 0, only to 6. CR at 0. DI was on (Lamp High, IRIS 0) and not sure if that should be off when adjusting CR/BR, but I turned it off just in case. I pretty much figured out and did what Zombie outlined nicely. Then a light bulb went off in my head (not the projector) and left BR=0 in the JVC and used bb to get to where 81 flashed (guess what I had read earlier came to mind) and I settled at 0.016 for bb with the rest of the settings the same as Manni's and what Zombie listed above. Turned DI back on to Auto2.

Off to watch some UHD with new curve!!!
Yes, DI off for those adjustments always.
stevenjw likes this.
lovingdvd is offline  
post #22452 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 09:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Earth (most days!)
Posts: 5,171
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2094 Post(s)
Liked: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Is there a PDF or good doc on working with WIP? This thread moves pretty fast and the important posts get lost in the haystack. Too bad Arve's work isn't discussed in a separate thread with sticky notes at the top for easy reference like the other JVC threads.
I always thought that too Steve but then also thought at this point (a year + later), what would we really talk about on this thread then (that hasn't already been beaten to death!).
stevenjw and Manni01 like this.

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> Our 4K/3D Immersive Theater
krichter1 is offline  
post #22453 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 09:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Earth (most days!)
Posts: 5,171
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2094 Post(s)
Liked: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Beware that this is the low-res version of the curves I use. They have 11 controls points instead of 256.
There is no substitute to using Arve's tool to get the best possible curves, but these might give you an idea of the potential.
The low-res version is untested (I simply exported my hi-res curves, I haven't re-loaded the low-res version to check them).

You'll still need a linker to get proper fade to black with the DI
And so I'll ask again... can we only import your 11 point gammas or can any of the "universal" ones you created (even 256) be used Manni?

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> Our 4K/3D Immersive Theater
krichter1 is offline  
post #22454 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 09:33 PM
Senior Member
 
fingersdlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 448
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
There is an amazing feature in Arve's tool wip branch where you can tell it to highlight all areas of the picture that are being soft clipped and or hard clipped....
Very cool! I haven't tried it yet, but there's something similar for highlighting black so you can tell if you are crushing and by how much.
That is pretty cool. The black ones are pretty neat when you watch title cards fade in and out of black. EDIT: On Fury Road. I tried the hard clip setting on some earlier curves I did and it was interesting to see what was clipped. I also found there is more content than I would have guessed in the high range > 3500 for Fury Road. Not just explosions but glints off the exhaust pipes and such. I set it to revel any over 3500 and there was a good amount. Nice to have that so it is less guess work about what is getting altered. Just when I thought I might be close to the end experimenting. Oh well. Good stuff.

Last edited by fingersdlp; 03-10-2017 at 05:11 AM.
fingersdlp is offline  
post #22455 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 09:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Earth (most days!)
Posts: 5,171
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2094 Post(s)
Liked: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I literally cant keep up with this thread. But thanks anyway.

Building four sub-woofers last couple weeks, they are done, been trying to juggle calibrating 3000watts worth of bass into my room (I am equally festidious with audio as I am video), and playing the new Zelda (INcredible game), and enjoying my new projector, I am pretty buried in stuff to do, hence never once trying any of these curves just yet. Not to mention, I don't even have any new UHDBR's to watch, its all been HD SDR so far, which, still looks fantastic.
You're adding more bass in that room?!



stevenjw likes this.

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> Our 4K/3D Immersive Theater
krichter1 is offline  
post #22456 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 09:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
krichter1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Earth (most days!)
Posts: 5,171
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2094 Post(s)
Liked: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
OK, think I got it. Initially I couldn't get JVC to 0, only to 6. CR at 0. DI was on (Lamp High, IRIS 0) and not sure if that should be off when adjusting CR/BR, but I turned it off just in case. I pretty much figured out and did what Zombie outlined nicely. Then a light bulb went off in my head (not the projector) and left BR=0 in the JVC and used bb to get to where 81 flashed (guess what I had read earlier came to mind) and I settled at 0.016 for bb with the rest of the settings the same as Manni's and what Zombie listed above. Turned DI back on to Auto2.

Off to watch some UHD with new curve!!!

Let me know how you fair please as I'll just be starting my trek down this path over the weekend!
stevenjw likes this.

Kevin

You only live once, but if you live it right, once is enough.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


==> Our 4K/3D Immersive Theater
krichter1 is offline  
post #22457 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 10:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 2,787
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2171 Post(s)
Liked: 2030
I used the Work In Progress branch tonight and created two curves; one with 600 max brightness and the other 500. So far I am preferring the punch I get from the 500.

500 100 .020 4000 auto(215) .75 0 1

.020 resolved to bar 81 with both curves. Both resolve to 4000 nits was well.

It really wasn't difficult to use once I realized I had to load a default or other curve before doing anything else.
krichter1 and Manni01 like this.

CJ
JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Vertex/Linker/Integral

Last edited by claw; 03-09-2017 at 10:40 PM.
claw is offline  
post #22458 of 31899 Old 03-09-2017, 11:56 PM
Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
OK, think I got it. Initially I couldn't get JVC to 0, only to 6. CR at 0. DI was on (Lamp High, IRIS 0) and not sure if that should be off when adjusting CR/BR, but I turned it off just in case. I pretty much figured out and did what Zombie outlined nicely. Then a light bulb went off in my head (not the projector) and left BR=0 in the JVC and used bb to get to where 81 flashed (guess what I had read earlier came to mind) and I settled at 0.016 for bb with the rest of the settings the same as Manni's and what Zombie listed above. Turned DI back on to Auto2.

Off to watch some UHD with new curve!!!
Hi Steve or anyone that is using the WIP Arve utility.
Don't know what I'm doing wrong, but no adjustments I make to "bb" seem to make any difference to the resolving brightness.
Using Ray's patterns Black clipping no.2, 64 and above all flash.
At bb=0, bb=0.05, bb=0.10, bb= ?? all flash.
JVC an Oppo set to 0/0 Br/Cr.
Manual iris, low lamp open.
Let the WIP do the auto calcs, with a max at 600: so, 600 - 100 - Auto ( 255 )- 4000 ( 0.75 / 0 / 1 )
I saw Manni01 previously mentioned that movies mastered at 0.005nits initially showed a raised black floor, which I'm also seeing, and that he noted that with the Linker in place to utilize the DI, that the DI was not closing down fully on FTB.
I've also noted that when a movie is loading, the DI closes to maybe 3mm wide, but as soon as there is a signal ( during sync ) the DI opens considerably. Is this correct?
Any advice gratefully appreciated.
IMDave is offline  
post #22459 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 12:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 635 Post(s)
Liked: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Let me know how you fair please as I'll just be starting my trek down this path over the weekend!
You'll need to download and install Python 3.6 for Windows and Avre's WIP zip first. Make sure you're in the user (BT.2020 profile) and custom gamma (1->3) setting you want to update. Zero out the JVC picture adjustments too (CR and BR to 0) and turn off DI (Manual / IRIS 0) and follow what Zombie posted on getting the Python menu.py script running and the eventual new curve loaded into the JVC. Don't forget to enable the DI again when you're done.

I ended up with bm=700 and bb=0.018 to hit the correct levels in RM's clips. The rest of the variables are the same as what others (Manni, CJ, Zombie's example) are using. Manni did say that bm value should be lowered if your nits aren't 135. Looks like CJ went even lower than I did at 600 and 500. Trying new settings is easy. I basically ran the Brightness clipping slide and used the bb and Pw options to change the Black Brightness value and write the gamma to the JVC. The thing is that you're still eye-balling where the flashing level is best for your setup. Looks like most folks end up near 0.20 for bb. I needed a lower value in order to zero out the JVC.

I may follow CJ and lower bm again, but what I settled with so far looked really good with The Martian tonight. The tool saves a file named jvc_gamma_written-Custom3.conf (assuming Custom3 is the gamma you're using) which contains the variables and 256 points used.
Manni01 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 03-10-2017 at 12:15 AM.
stevenjw is offline  
post #22460 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 12:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
stevenjw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Posts: 2,938
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 635 Post(s)
Liked: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Hi Steve or anyone that is using the WIP Arve utility.
Don't know what I'm doing wrong, but no adjustments I make to "bb" seem to make any difference to the resolving brightness.
Using Ray's patterns Black clipping no.2, 64 and above all flash.
At bb=0, bb=0.05, bb=0.10, bb= ?? all flash.
JVC an Oppo set to 0/0 Br/Cr.
Manual iris, low lamp open.
Make sure you turn DI off when using the script. I think the best results for bb will be in the 0.016 to 0.024 range. Try 0.02 like others are using and go from there. I ended up at 0.018, but you need to hit the bb and bm values that work for your setup. Let us know how it goes.

EDIT: Also make sure that your il is set to Standard too; assuming that's what you're using for HDMI level.
Manni01 likes this.

...Steve
"Opinions are like orgasms… mine matters most and I really don’t care if you have one or not." ;)
 
My HT gear

Last edited by stevenjw; 03-10-2017 at 12:29 AM.
stevenjw is offline  
post #22461 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 12:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,836
Mentioned: 474 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6779 Post(s)
Liked: 6393
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
You're adding more bass in that room?!



Haha nah the recent pics you saw were it, complete solution

30 odd cubic feet of 18 inch subs is 'enough' for me.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #22462 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 01:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,984
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5340 Post(s)
Liked: 5370
Clarifying the testing requested regarding the brightness setting in HDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
First, you should know that any post I am responding to about this complex HDR curve discussion, I have read at least a dozen times before responding.

I read it again just now a few more times per your recommendation to revisit it. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't address my question. From your message I gather that we have an option (?) of setting black by using 64 as a reference (and targeting, 68 blinking) or targetting 77, 81 blinking). But my question is - which is the right one to target? When would you target one over the other? Now I may have missed that from another post at some point, but unless I am really overlooking it, its not in the post you referred me back to. Thanks!
I know you have read the post, and probably re-read it, but I'm asking again: please re-read the post.

In that post, I am giving two options for setting the black point. I am explaining what each one does, for which titles. I'm asking people to try each one, with different types of content, and see if they can see the improvements I see for one, and no downside. I ask if they can see any improvement with the other option, which I don't. I'm not going to repeat this in detail everytime one doesn't understand, it would take me ages! However, because you're a good friend and because you're not the only one, I'm going to expand a bit, but you still need to re-read the post in question (it called setting brightness in HDR and it's linked to in the first post of the Autocal thread in the HDR gamma section if you're not sure which one it is)...

[EDIT: Here's the link: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...#post51346873] and a bit more info here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...#post51359041]]

Until I get enough detailed feedback about this, from users following specifically what I've asked about in that post and doing exactly the tests I've asked, there is no answer to this question.

There is a "theoretically" correct way to set the black point, and that's resolving down to level 68 (black at 64). This raises the black point in most titles (those mastered to 0.005nits, especially those mastered to 1000nits, such as Lucy). It should increase shadow details for clips mastered to 0nits, such as Hitman 47 or the Revenant, but I as far as I can see, it mainly raises the black floor in 0.005nits titles (for example, it makes the black bars visible in Lucy), but it doesn't add any shadow detail that I can see in 0nits mastered titles.

What I'm suggesting to do is to use a theoretically incorrect way to set the black point, and to resolve only down to 0.005nits, so level 81 blinking, black at 77. This means that for all titles mastered to 0.005nits (about 75% of all the titles to date, including all titles mastered to 4000nits) we only resolve down to the black levels of the grading monitor. By not trying to resolve lower, where there is no content and no further shadow detail, we don't raise the black floor unnecessarily. This is especially visible in a title like Lucy. Take any of the fade to black at the beginning, you should see the black floor going down significantly. There shouldn't be any downside doing this for all the titles mastered to 0.005nits black. HOWEVER, in theory, when we do this we crush shadow detail for the titles mastered to 0nits, as for these titles there is shadow detail below 0.005nits. But when I switch between the two curves for these titles, I can't see any black crush or visible loss of shadow details. I've used Hitman and The Revenant, both mastered to 0nits black, to try to see if using the "correct" curve would increase shadow detail, but to my eyes it doesn't.

This is why I'm asking other to try these two options after having set black brightness correctly for their setup, and report if they see the same advantage with option 2 with 0.005nits titles, and no drawbacks (i.e. option 1 doesn't bring back any visible shadow details on titles mastered to 0nits).

Important note: when switching between the two gamma curves to compare black floor / shadow detail, don't use the menu, as this makes it much more difficult to see the difference (plus it opens the iris wide for those that use the DI). Cycle between the gamma curves using the gamma button on the remote. This only displays the active gamma in the upper right corner and is less damaging to the black levels as your pupil can remain closed, so you see more shadow detail.

Until I get this feedback, with detailed timecodes as requested where a 0nits curve seems to improve shadow detail, I'm not going to make any recommendation. I'm using option 2 in my Unicurve because I can't see any downside to resolving only down to level 81, but that's in my set-up. In others, maybe there is a downside, which means some would have to use two curves, or only the correct one and live with the raised black floor in some titles.

By the way, I checked the curve and the difference between a 68 and an 81 curve is just one click at the 5% control point in the lowres gamma curves I exported. I'm sure more points are affected in the original curve, but still, it's not a lot, which explains that while it might improve the black floor in many titles, it doesn't lead to a significant loss of shadow detail in the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
@Manni01 ,

Here's what I came up with tonight:

Max bright: 800nits
Ref white: 100nits
Black brightness: 0.005 (resolving down to 0.005nits/level 81 on my unit for black at level 77)
Soft clip start: auto (335 effective if you're not using wip yet))
Hard clip: 4000nits
SEC: 0.75
Soft curve type: 0
Soft curve gamma: 1

If I set to .01, I can resolve down to 68 on my unit, making black level at 64. Not sure if I should stick with 77 or go down to 64 though. What do you think? I tested my black levels and I haven't raised the black floor at all.
Please read the above as well as the post mentioned, do the requested testing and report back

Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
And so I'll ask again... can we only import your 11 point gammas or can any of the "universal" ones you created (even 256) be used Manni?
If you don't use Arne's tool, you're stuck with the low-res version at 11point. If you use Arve's tool, you get 256points, which might or might not make a visible difference, depending on the curve. I'm giving the parameters to that people can recreate exactly the same curves in hi-res using Arve's tool, the adjust to taste/set-up. If you don't want to spend the time learning to use the tool, the solution is called Chad B (or any other competent calibrator) . No one is stuck to anything, unless you're both out of time AND money (which rarely happens, but I acknowledge it can).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
That is pretty cool. The black ones are pretty neat when you watch title cards fade in and out of black. I tried the hard clip setting on some earlier curves I did and it was interesting to see what was clipped. I also found there is more content than I would have guessed in the high range > 3500 for Fury Road. Not just explosions but glints off the exhaust pipes and such. I set it to revel any over 3500 and there was a good amount. Nice to have that so it is less guess work about what is getting altered. Just when I thought I might be close to the end experimenting. Oh well. Good stuff.
Why do you think I keep using (and recommending) to use Mad Max to check for highlights clipping below 4000nits?

It's one of the few 4000nits titles (along with Batman Vs. Superman) that actually uses the whole range. Many 4000nits titles (for example The Shallows) never go above 2500nits. Most never go above 1100nits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I used the Work In Progress branch tonight and created two curves; one with 600 max brightness and the other 500. So far I am preferring the punch I get from the 500.

500 100 .020 4000 auto(215) .75 0 1

.020 resolved to bar 81 with both curves. Both resolve to 4000 nits was well.

It really wasn't difficult to use once I realized I had to load a default or other curve before doing anything else.
Great, please double check that your 500 curve does resolve down to 81, create another one resolving down to 68, and please do the testing requested above and in my initial post about setting brightness. We do need feedback on this to decide whether it's an acceptable practice for our projectors to resolve down to 81, so we only need one Unicurve, or if it does have a downside with some titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Hi Steve or anyone that is using the WIP Arve utility.
Don't know what I'm doing wrong, but no adjustments I make to "bb" seem to make any difference to the resolving brightness.
Using Ray's patterns Black clipping no.2, 64 and above all flash.
At bb=0, bb=0.05, bb=0.10, bb= ?? all flash.
JVC an Oppo set to 0/0 Br/Cr.
Manual iris, low lamp open.
Let the WIP do the auto calcs, with a max at 600: so, 600 - 100 - Auto ( 255 )- 4000 ( 0.75 / 0 / 1 )
I saw Manni01 previously mentioned that movies mastered at 0.005nits initially showed a raised black floor, which I'm also seeing, and that he noted that with the Linker in place to utilize the DI, that the DI was not closing down fully on FTB.
I've also noted that when a movie is loading, the DI closes to maybe 3mm wide, but as soon as there is a signal ( during sync ) the DI opens considerably. Is this correct?
Any advice gratefully appreciated.
The DI opening fully during sync is normal. It should, however, close fully when displaying a 0nits full black pattern. Don't check this with an actual title, you never know if black in a fade to black is 0nits, 0.005nits, or anything else, some have a raised black level even if the level is not raised otherwise, some are too short for the DI to have the time to fully close.

Please try to resolve down to level 81 in a separate curve and please compare both curves as requested above, once you have checked please report results back.

Note to all: this testing isn't about which curve you prefer in your own setup, or whether my parameters work or not for you. I'm glad if they do, but they most likely won't, especially max brightness if you don't have 120-140nits peak white, and black brightness which will need to be adjusted using the Masciola patterns. I'm asking for specific feedback on a few different points in that post about setting brightness in HDR.

Thanks!
bdavidson likes this.

Last edited by Manni01; 03-10-2017 at 04:53 AM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #22463 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 02:48 AM
Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 197
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Make sure you turn DI off when using the script. I think the best results for bb will be in the 0.016 to 0.024 range. Try 0.02 like others are using and go from there. I ended up at 0.018, but you need to hit the bb and bm values that work for your setup. Let us know how it goes.

EDIT: Also make sure that your il is set to Standard too; assuming that's what you're using for HDMI level.
Thanks Steve.
Yes, I had DI off and il set to standard.
Unfortunately, as I say, no changes I make for bb make any difference to the flashing of the series from 64 - 90 in Black clipping pattern #2.
They all flash whether bb is 0.0 or 0.5, or anything in between.
I try Manni01' s suggestion of looking at one of my other Custom gammas tomorrow.
I think the WIP branch has given the possibilty of having one universal curve, because other than this raised black issue, everything else is looking really good.
IMDave is offline  
post #22464 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 02:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,984
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5340 Post(s)
Liked: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Thanks Steve.
Yes, I had DI off and il set to standard.
Unfortunately, as I say, no changes I make for bb make any difference to the flashing of the series from 64 - 90 in Black clipping pattern #2.
They all flash whether bb is 0.0 or 0.5, or anything in between.
I try Manni01' s suggestion of looking at one of my other Custom gammas tomorrow.
I think the WIP branch has given the possibilty of having one universal curve, because other than this raised black issue, everything else is looking really good.
Just to check, are you writing the curve (Pw) to see the changes in real-time on the pattern after you change bb? Try to enter 1 for bb (then Pw), then 0 for bb (then Pw), there should be a huge change.
If you don't see any difference, if your controls are at zero both in the PJ and in the source, and if you're using HDMI standard, then I have no idea what's going on.

One last thing, make sure you select the right levels (Standard) for your setup. If Arve's tool is using extended levels, then you might experience what you're seeing.

We could have a universal curve before WIP, as long as the correct parameters were entered. The wip branch simply makes it easier for those who find it difficult to "fly blind" to see how each parameter is changing the curve. Plus it helps to fine-tune the black point without using controls in the source or the PJ, which is great.
Manni01 is online now  
post #22465 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 02:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 8,900
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked: 3208
Last week, I finally had ChadB calibrate my RS500. The primary purpose was to be able to watch 4K. I was perfectly content with 1080P based upon the few adjustments I had made from hints from this thread, and had I no interest in 4K, I would not have used his services. Results: While the changes in 1080P were, to my eyes, subtle, they were important. Phenomenal picture!!! Glad he did his magic.

4K is a different story. Yesterday I got a chance to watch parts of the very few 4K movies I have access to (Lucy, Magnificent 7, Salt, Bourne) since ChadB was here. My screen gain is ~1, screen size is 120" x 51", I am using an Oppo, and I don't want to use high lamp since the projector is just over and slightly behind my head. Given this, I will stick with stripping meta data and watching SDR/WCG. It looks amazing. And to my eyes, even when comparing SDR/WCG to a good HDR image of the same scene, I don't think I give up much (Lucy has some great scenes for this purpose near the beginning of the film when she is in the hotel lobby). The variability of the mastering of the various 4K movies, coupled with the need to remember to change from Gamma D to ChadB's custom curve, (and the need for my wife to be able to use our theater), means SDSR/WCG wins. It is way more than good enough after Chad did whatever he did. If my screen were high gain (e.g. 2.8 or similar), and/or I had a much brighter PJ (RS4500 )I might be inclined to give 4K a chance, but consider me a happy JVC user.

I am still blown away by the image the JVC projector puts out.
audioguy is online now  
post #22466 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 03:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,984
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5340 Post(s)
Liked: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Last week, I finally had ChadB calibrate my RS500. The primary purpose was to be able to watch 4K. I was perfectly content with 1080P based upon the few adjustments I had made from hints from this thread, and had I no interest in 4K, I would not have used his services. Results: While the changes in 1080P were, to my eyes, subtle, they were important. Phenomenal picture!!! Glad he did his magic.

4K is a different story. Yesterday I got a chance to watch parts of the very few 4K movies I have access to (Lucy, Magnificent 7, Salt, Bourne) since ChadB was here. My screen gain is ~1, screen size is 120" x 51", I am using an Oppo, and I don't want to use high lamp since the projector is just over and slightly behind my head. Given this, I will stick with stripping meta data and watching SDR/WCG. It looks amazing. And to my eyes, even when comparing SDR/WCG to a good HDR image of the same scene, I don't think I give up much (Lucy has some great scenes for this purpose near the beginning of the film when she is in the hotel lobby). The variability of the mastering of the various 4K movies, coupled with the need to remember to change from Gamma D to ChadB's custom curve, (and the need for my wife to be able to use our theater), means SDSR/WCG wins. It is way more than good enough after Chad did whatever he did. If my screen were high gain (e.g. 2.8 or similar), and/or I had a much brighter PJ (RS4500 )I might be inclined to give 4K a chance, but consider me a happy JVC user.

I am still blown away by the image the JVC projector puts out.
Glad you're happy now, but Lucy or Deadpool is never going to show you how SDR BT2020 is harming the picture. You need to test a 4000nits title that actually uses more than 2000nits or so (this is where the Panny is clipping if the DRC slider is set to -6, if set to the default of 0 it will clip around 600nits). Take Mad Max, in most of the explosion scenes, and compare the (I'm sure excellent) curve that Chad B has made for you, and SDR BT2020. Unless Chad's curve is clipping below 4000nits, which is neither necessary nor recommended, you should see that with the slider at -6 or more, you are likely clipping a lot of highlights.

That might not bother you, but in order to show all the details in the content for titles using more than 2000nits in SDR BT2020, you need the DRC slider to be at -12. This will likely result in too dim a picture for most setups (it does in mine, and I get 140nits in low lamp and 200nits in high lamp, so not really a dim setup). From the limited list you've mentioned, only The Magnificent Seven has possibly content above 2000nits, but I've not located where yet, so look for very bright areas such as glint on the guns, sun, bright sky, explosions or fire if there is any, etc. Salt is mastered to 4000nits but doesn't have content above 1200nits, like many 4000nits titles. Lucy and all the Bourne movies are mastered to 1000nits. It's much easier to make SDR BT2020 look good for these titles as you can make the picture brighter without losing detail in the highlights (-4 to -06 on the DRC slider). But for the titles using above 1500nits, then you have to choose between resolving the highlights and having a dark picture (slider down to -12) or clipping the highlight (slider -6 or above).

This is why creating a custom curve is usually much better, especially if you can reach at least 100nits peakY: you have one universal curve for all titles, there is no content detail loss (no clipping of highlights at all), a single curve works for all titles without a significant loss of contrast or brightness, and all titles look just right (plenty bright, contrasty and punchy). To get rid of Gamma D and have your single custom curve selected with you HDR user preset, you need a linker, which will also give you your DI back. Once you are set up this way, there is no looking back .

If you have significantly less than 100nits peakY, then using SDR BT2020 is fine as long as you're happy to clip highlights on some titles, otherwise, you're seriously missing out on what HDR has to offer.

If any of this is unclear, ask Chad to explain, I'm sure he'll concur.

I agree though that even in SDR BT2020 (as long as you're not watching 4000nits titles using the whole range), these projectors throw a fantastic picture.

But SDR BT2020 is so 2016...
stevenjw, Dave Vaughn and jtolive like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 03-10-2017 at 03:22 AM.
Manni01 is online now  
post #22467 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 03:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 8,900
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked: 3208
@Manni01 : (1) I have no clue what any of that means (which is exactly why I used ChadB); (2) I don't have a Panny. I have an Oppo 203; (3) having a less than "perfect" 4K/HDR image (which I guess the SDR/WCG image is) does absolutely nothing to take away from being involved in the film. So even if SDR BT2020 (but in this case, ChadB's version of BT2020), is so 2106, then I, too, am so 2016 - so I'm good. On the other hand, watching a film that I felt was too dark would most certainly ruin the enjoyment of the film FOR ME. Short summary: I am NOT a video perfectionist !!

But, to be fair and to put that in perspective, if I had an equivalent issue (if there is such a thing) on the audio side of the film, I would find it much, much more difficult to deal with. Hence my screen name !!
COACH2369 and healthnut like this.
audioguy is online now  
post #22468 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 04:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,984
Mentioned: 307 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5340 Post(s)
Liked: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
@Manni01 : (1) I have no clue what any of that means (which is exactly why I used ChadB); (2) I don't have a Panny. I have an Oppo 203; (3) having a less than "perfect" 4K/HDR image (which I guess the SDR/WCG image is) does absolutely nothing to take away from being involved in the film. So even if SDR BT2020 (but in this case, ChadB's version of BT2020), is so 2106, then I, too, am so 2016 - so I'm good. On the other hand, watching a film that I felt was too dark would most certainly ruin the enjoyment of the film FOR ME. Short summary: I am NOT a video perfectionist !!

But, to be fair and to put that in perspective, if I had an equivalent issue (if there is such a thing) on the audio side of the film, I would find it much, much more difficult to deal with. Hence my screen name !!


Ignorance is bliss


Enjoy your PJ, I'm sure it looks fantastic.
Manni01 is online now  
post #22469 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 04:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,959
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1564 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I used the Work In Progress branch tonight and created two curves; one with 600 max brightness and the other 500. So far I am preferring the punch I get from the 500.

500 100 .020 4000 auto(215) .75 0 1

.020 resolved to bar 81 with both curves. Both resolve to 4000 nits was well.

It really wasn't difficult to use once I realized I had to load a default or other curve before doing anything else.
Hey Claw, pls remind me of your screen size, gain, throw distance etc...thanks man

Sony 85900F
Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b
Dual JL Audio D110
Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Triple black velvet bat cave
asharma is offline  
post #22470 of 31899 Old 03-10-2017, 05:25 AM
Senior Member
 
fingersdlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 448
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Why do you think I keep using (and recommending) to use Mad Max to check for highlights clipping below 4000nits?

It's one of the few 4000nits titles (along with Batman Vs. Superman) that actually uses the whole range. Many 4000nits titles (for example The Shallows) never go above 2500nits. Most never go above 1100nits. ... Thanks!
Yes, your original screen shots are what clued me into using the Fury Road explosions. I had made the jump to 4000 hard clip earlier when you posted your analysis using the wip version and a earlier soft clip but it is nice to confirm further its benefits.

For the black brightness setting I will have to retest. Last night with the Panasonic and JVC set to 0 I had to use a 0 (zero) for bb setting and that gave me 73 black (77 flashing). I had to use brightness -1 in the Panasonic to get 77 black and 81 flashing. I left my dynamic iris to auto 2 so I will retest with it on manual full open.

EDIT: Retested this morning. In my case DI manual vs Auto2 no difference. So I at least know what I have to do to get the two levels and I will sample content tonight for comparison. ( I know the 73 black is not one of them - I will test with the two options you outlined).
Manni01 likes this.

Last edited by fingersdlp; 03-10-2017 at 06:29 AM.
fingersdlp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
jvc-rs500u synch/display issue? , RS600

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off