Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 773 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23161 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Attention custom HDR curve creation freaks - As of last night there's a new Arve's Tool branch called "threaded_menu". This fixes issues with the plot window being "unreponsive" if you tried to move it, and issues with the plot window wanting to hide under all other windows and not come to the foreground. If you do any work with the plot window you will really appreciate this update, available her: https://github.com/arvehj/jvcproject.../threaded_menu . That is the only things different from the very latest wip branch.
Interesting. If this is mainly a 'bug fix,' without adding or changing features or functionality, I would have thought an updated 'WIP' version would be preferred. Are we certain there are no other changes but the bug fixes?

Thanks for finding this.

Don

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post #23162 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 04:52 AM
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Changes in the threaded branch (supersedes wip) and explanation of the plot info

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Interesting. If this is mainly a 'bug fix,' without adding or changing features or functionality, I would have thought an updated 'WIP' version would be preferred. Are we certain there are no other changes but the bug fixes?

Thanks for finding this.

Don
The threaded menu branch has all the options of the wip branch as far as I can see (including the latest bbi/bbo and bs parameters). So it's a fixed wip, and it can also display a lot of useful info on the plot as well (see attached graph), so as far as I'm concerned it supersedes wip.

To display the info on the chart, you have to have bt1886 selected before you plot the first time. Then you select pq gamma and the values are adjusted. If you clear and plot again, there is no info on the chart, but I'm sure this is a bug that will be corrected by @arve soon. [EDIT: now that all my parameters are input and saved, the plot works first time without the need to go back to bt1886]

As far as I can see, the vertical numbers on the left show the output (actual nits if you set bm to your actual peakY as I did with bm=130nits, then virtual nits and o is the output level in the gamma table 0-1023). The horizontal numbers at the bottom show the input (content). The first of the three digits before the value in nits shows the control point in the gamma table (0-255), the second digit shows the standard/video level 8bits/limited (16-235), the third one shows the level for white in 10bits PQ (64-960). If I'm correct, the value for these three for 10,000nits should read 255 235 960 if it was displayed. I might be wrong so @arve will correct me if it's the case. Thanks a lot to Arve for adding this info, it's very useful.

Also it would be great if @arve could add a line for 50% white (94nits) or the legacy reference white at 100nits, in a similar way as the soft clip start and hard clip points are shown, with their exact value. I personally would prefer 94nits / 50% white as this is an easily measurable value and is more meaningful in the PQ curve, but of course he can keep 100nits if he has some reasons to prefer this legacy reference.
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Last edited by Manni01; 03-21-2017 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Added info
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post #23163 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 06:34 AM
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Thanks, ccool. I had switched the Roku to 4:2:0 using the secret menu, but still get the full screen, straight line bright color JVC lockups. My Samsung arrives today and I will see if it also suffers from the lockups in my chain or whether it is a Roku issue for me.

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post #23164 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 08:13 AM
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I'm not a real expert with power, but from some reading I did the true sign wave is the best/safest route. Does it really make a difference? Who knows.
I've been using the Cyberpower true sine wave for several years, too; and I think the difference it makes is largely dependent on the equipment it is powering. I'm an EE and I know that an inexpensive DC to AC switching power supply will produce very close to a square wave. This introduces a lot of electrical noise (lots of "squiggles" or hash in the AC produced). If you were powering a pure resistance load, this would't make any difference. But we don't power resistance loads. In fact, in most cases we are powering another switching power supply, which introduces it's own noise. That's what the big banks of capacitors in expensive amplifiers are for--to smooth out the hash that CAN be heard in audio equipment. Any noise generated in a UPS powering an amp would be smoothed by the amps power supply. Projectors also have switching power supplies to power the lamps. I have no idea what happens when one feeds "noisy" power to another "noisy" power supply. The PJ also has a low voltage DC power supply for the circuit boards. If this is another switching supply, such as is in Computers, it'll have capacitors and inductors to smooth out the hash. But these components are small and could be overloaded with a lot of hash. The electrical "noise" in the 110v. UPS supply to our devices will undoubtedly increase heat losses in our devices. Using a sine wave UPS will move that heat from our devices to the UPS. It probably doesn't make much of a difference whether we use a square wave UPS or a sine wave UPS, but for the small extra cost I choose to do it for a PJ. One power outage can shorten the life of our lamps and just having one is more important than whether it is a "true sine wave" output.
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post #23165 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
I've been using the Cyberpower true sine wave for several years, too; and I think the difference it makes is largely dependent on the equipment it is powering. I'm an EE and I know that an inexpensive DC to AC switching power supply will produce very close to a square wave. This introduces a lot of electrical noise (lots of "squiggles" or hash in the AC produced). If you were powering a pure resistance load, this would't make any difference. But we don't power resistance loads. In fact, in most cases we are powering another switching power supply, which introduces it's own noise. That's what the big banks of capacitors in expensive amplifiers are for--to smooth out the hash that CAN be heard in audio equipment. Any noise generated in a UPS powering an amp would be smoothed by the amps power supply. Projectors also have switching power supplies to power the lamps. I have no idea what happens when one feeds "noisy" power to another "noisy" power supply. The PJ also has a low voltage DC power supply for the circuit boards. If this is another switching supply, such as is in Computers, it'll have capacitors and inductors to smooth out the hash. But these components are small and could be overloaded with a lot of hash. The electrical "noise" in the 110v. UPS supply to our devices will undoubtedly increase heat losses in our devices. Using a sine wave UPS will move that heat from our devices to the UPS. It probably doesn't make much of a difference whether we use a square wave UPS or a sine wave UPS, but for the small extra cost I choose to do it for a PJ. One power outage can shorten the life of our lamps and just having one is more important than whether it is a "true sine wave" output.
Very helpful post - thanks.

I did get a callback from JVC, and the guy said that the Power Supply for these projectors is "Active PFC" so if what the CyberPower guy told me is true, then the Backup Unit I bought, which is 'simulated' sine wave, would not work.

So I'll be heading back to BJ's to return the LX1100G, and will probably order their CP1000 unit that does have pure sine wave output.

I also asked the JVC guy if they had specs for how many Watts are consumed during the cool-down phase, or if they had any recommendations for the specs for a Backup unit, but he said they don't have anything on either of those questions. I suggested to him that since this is a reasonably important issue, that it would be helpful for JVC to publish some guidelines or recommendations on what units, or what types of units and specs, would do the job, and not create any problems.

Don
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post #23166 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I'm not a real expert with power, but from some reading I did the true sign wave is the best/safest route. Does it really make a difference? Who knows.
I went through this years ago in detail and was told by experts in the field to only use pure sinewave output for my HT A/V gear (especially when it comes to PJ's!).

Some theorize it should only make a real difference for fans/motors but a pure sinewave seen by sensitive equipment power supplies (i.e. - computers, receivers, DVRs, projectors w/ active pfc's), has more positive (needed actually), ramifications than w/ step approximation power devices. The On/Off "stepping" will cause most A/V equipment to shut down because the power wave is not purely constant (and if you live in an area where this happens often or where "brownouts" are prevalent like in large metropolitan areas this is especially crucial).

I'm sure there are other more recent solutions for HT but at the time I went through this the APC S15BLK was the best banged pure sinewave output UPS I could buy (and afford).

(EDIT - and stay away from the APC 'J' type equipment as they are all step approx'd supplies)
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post #23167 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Anybody that has the Samsung player. Do you have any problem displaying the menu (no disc loaded) with CMD on? If not then the problem is not the projector. Samsung menu is 4K 60 4:4:4. This is placing max load on the cable, so you will have to have a cable that can do 18Gbps. Roku is buggy as can be. So I do not know why you would think the projector has a problem rather than the Roku. The projector only displays what it receives. So if the signal is sent properly, then the projector can't know the difference between one (Samsung) 4K 60 4:4:4 signal and another (Roku). In other words, it can't play one correctly and the other incorrectly, if both are sending the correct signal.
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It's definitely not the JVC because JVC has moved on to the RS620 and is not about to do another firmware update or admit it's their issue.

But seriously, 4k hdr from the Roku is 2160p60 4:2:2 12 bit, a legal full bandwidth signal, and not 4:4:4 8 bit. So showing the Samsung works is not relevant, as the format is different.

Besides, the fact that turning off CMD "fixes" the issue ought to tell you where the problem lies.
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
We are going in circles. It doesn't matter what CAUSES the problem - under no circumstances should the JVC HDMI completely freeze up and not be recoverable without power cycling the unit, short of a defect in it's software or firmware, which should be fixed. Yes JVC may not be able to prevent the signal from dropping out or not showing up, but their projector should be able to recover from the condition more gracefully. The fix we are asking for is just that - so we don't have to power cycle the unit to get it working again once it goes haywire.

In my case I have the UB900 which does put out 4K 60 444 for its Home screen, which I can display just fine on the projector. And as I mentioned, this is NOT just in the case of the Roku. It has happened about 1-2 times a month (with every day projector usage) when switching between the UB900 and Comcast X1 STB with the Roku not even in the chain at the time, as I reported here back in October. When you ask why are we blaming the projector when Roku is so buggy (which it is!), THAT is why - it is not confined to the Roku. Tho that said, the Roku definitely triggers it to happen more often. And also as I said, in any event, the projector needs to be able to handle such a case more gracefully instead of going haywire.
Greetings,

I agree, the fact that it works with the Samsung menu isn't relevant. The fact that the projector becomes unresponsive, with only a power cycle able to restore proper operation is an indicator that it is in fact the projector. I do agree that there is something, whether it be a combination of contributing factors, that include the source and projector, causing the condition, the projector shouldn't go into a state that can only be fixed in this way.


Regards,
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post #23168 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
I went through this years ago in detail and was told by experts in the field to only use pure sinewave output for my HT A/V gear (especially when it comes to PJ's!).

Some theorize it should only make a real difference for fans/motors but a pure sinewave seen by sensitive equipment power supplies (i.e. - computers, receivers, DVRs, projectors w/ active pfc's), has more positive (needed actually), ramifications than w/ step approximation power devices. The On/Off "stepping" will cause most A/V equipment to shut down because the power wave is not purely constant (and if you live in an area where this happens often or where "brownouts" are prevalent like in large metropolitan areas this is especially crucial).

I'm sure there are other more recent solutions for HT but at the time I went through this the APC S15BLK was the best banged pure sinewave output UPS I could buy (and afford).

(EDIT - and stay away from the APC 'J' type equipment as they are all step approx'd supplies)
I've got one of these beasts - http://www.panamax.com/sites/panamax...-datasheet.pdf
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post #23169 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 12:39 PM
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Boy I do like this one Craig (big fan of Panamax... I used to work in telecom IT w/ one of their engineers who just retired this year)... Nice!

I just asked one of my trusted buddies (Mgr at Magnolia) and he said this top selling pure model (and "a great little unit for the money!"), should work well just for the PJ and give about 8-12min of backup at 275w (3min for the full rated 810watts). Not bad for $200!

EDIT - It says on the JVC "max power" of 380watts but I doubt that... even so worse case it would give 6-8min to shut down (mine took just under 4min).
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post #23170 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The threaded menu branch has all the options of the wip branch as far as I can see (including the latest bbi/bbo and bs parameters). So it's a fixed wip, and it can also display a lot of useful info on the plot as well (see attached graph), so as far as I'm concerned it supersedes wip.

To display the info on the chart, you have to have bt1886 selected before you plot the first time. Then you select pq gamma and the values are adjusted. If you clear and plot again, there is no info on the chart, but I'm sure this is a bug that will be corrected by @arve soon. [EDIT: now that all my parameters are input and saved, the plot works first time without the need to go back to bt1886]

As far as I can see, the vertical numbers on the left show the output (actual nits if you set bm to your actual peakY as I did with bm=130nits, then virtual nits and o is the output level in the gamma table 0-1023). The horizontal numbers at the bottom show the input (content). The first of the three digits before the value in nits shows the level in RGB 8bits/full (0-255), the second digit shows the standard/video level 8bits/limited (16-235), the third one shows the level for white in 10bits PQ (64-960). If I'm correct, the value for these three for 10,000nits should read 255 235 960 if it was displayed. I might be wrong so @arve will correct me if it's the case. Thanks a lot to Arve for adding this info, it's very useful.
All of this is also in the wip branch. 10000 nits is ?/235/940 where ? is the index in the gamma table and depends on the selected input level. You can zoom in to see more labels, but the labels are currently only visible if you zoom in on the bottom or left edge.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Also it would be great if @arve could add a line for 50% white (94nits) or the legacy reference white at 100nits, in a similar way as the soft clip start and hard clip points are shown, with their exact value. I personally would prefer 94nits / 50% white as this is an easily measurable value and is more meaningful in the PQ curve, but of course he can keep 100nits if he has some reasons to prefer this legacy reference.
How do you measure 50% white? If you expect 94 nits, it sounds like you are measuring an 8bit approximate 50% input signal (which is closer to 50.2%). If you have a 10 bit test pattern with a 50% white label, it might give a different result. I may add an option to select multiple grid options, but switching the x axis to use the same grid spacing as the current y axis (...,1,2,5,10,...) seems more useful than percent white values. Use the issue tracker, https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools/issues, if you have specific requests that you don't want me to forget.
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post #23171 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Boy I do like this one Craig (big fan of Panamax... I used to work in telecom IT w/ one of their engineers who just retired this year)... Nice!

I just asked one of my trusted buddies (Mgr at Magnolia) and he said this top selling pure model (and "a great little unit for the money!"), should work well just for the PJ and give about 8-12min of backup at 275w (3min for the full rated 810watts). Not bad for $200!

EDIT - It says on the JVC "max power" of 380watts but I doubt that... even so worse case it would give 6-8min to shut down (mine took just under 4min).
Hmmmm.. That's the model one better from the one I ordered. I did a quick search, and actually found it on Amazon for $144.99, no tax, free shipping. I was paying $160, including tax, for the CP1000 version. I quickly cancelled the first one, and ordered the CP1350 for $15 less!

So thanks for posting that - worked out pretty well for me!

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post #23172 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
So the key question here is whether or not these JVC Projectors have an APFC Power Supply or not.
Don
Why not plug the projector into a $25 kill-a-watt and find out? It's painfully simple.
At the same time, you could measure the cool-down power.
In Seattle, you can even checkout a kill-a-watt from the local library for free.
I wouldn't trust the answer from a customer service/sales rep.
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post #23173 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Hmmmm.. That's the model one better from the one I ordered. I did a quick search, and actually found it on Amazon for $144.99, no tax, free shipping. I was paying $160, including tax, for the CP1000 version. I quickly cancelled the first one, and ordered the CP1350 for $15 less!

So thanks for posting that - worked out pretty well for me!
I'll wait to hear back from you before buying one for the JVC (inclusive of you actually testing this out by pulling the plug!).
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post #23174 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:36 PM
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I'll wait to hear back from you before buying one for the JVC (inclusive of you actually testing this out by pulling the plug!).
No, no - don't pull the plug!! Oh, you mean the UPS! Had me worried for a minute!

But seriously, yeah, that would be the acid test. All this theory is all well and good, but actually testing it out as another matter. Again, theoretically the 'worst' that can happen is that the Projector would shut down if the UPS didn't meet its expectations; no different than what happened to me the other night when the power did go out! But at the same time, I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig!

Surely there must be someone on these forums with one of these projectors, who has a UPS installed, and had the power go out! Anyone with any real-world experience??

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post #23175 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kitti View Post
Why not plug the projector into a $25 kill-a-watt and find out? It's painfully simple.
At the same time, you could measure the cool-down power.
In Seattle, you can even checkout a kill-a-watt from the local library for free.
I wouldn't trust the answer from a customer service/sales rep.
Interesting option - I had never heard of that device - looks interesting.

As for JVC's response - this was from a tech support guy they had contacted after my initial inquiry, who seemed to know his stuff, or at least knew where to find the answers. So I do tend to trust what he said. But in general yeah, custom services/sales guys, even 'level one' tech support people are typically clueless.

But by going with a "pure sine wave" product I am taking the safest route, even if he was wrong.

Thanks for the post.

Don
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post #23176 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 02:02 PM
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No, no - don't pull the plug!! Oh, you mean the UPS! Had me worried for a minute!

But seriously, yeah, that would be the acid test. All this theory is all well and good, but actually testing it out as another matter. Again, theoretically the 'worst' that can happen is that the Projector would shut down if the UPS didn't meet its expectations; no different than what happened to me the other night when the power did go out! But at the same time, I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig!

Surely there must be someone on these forums with one of these projectors, who has a UPS installed, and had the power go out! Anyone with any real-world experience??
I would have gone for the highest 1500 model on The Jungle for that price (still cheaper than BB & will do so too if you give the green light), but years ago when I had a fan issue on my RS55 the JVC technician told me till it gets fixed and if the power were to go out on me, to take a hair dryer with a cool shot mode and blow it into the intake manifold. Although I never had to do this I keep my wifes old hair dryer where the heating element failed, in my closet just in case!. That too I'll throw out if this works well (and it should... I just looked at specs and although it's not a perfect pure sine-wave [clips a bit at the high/low ends] it should be perfectly fine for consumer electronic devices).


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post #23177 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by arve View Post
All of this is also in the wip branch. 10000 nits is ?/235/940 where ? is the index in the gamma table and depends on the selected input level. You can zoom in to see more labels, but the labels are currently only visible if you zoom in on the bottom or left edge.
Thanks Arve. All of this might be in the wip branch, but this info never appeared for as long as I used it. It only appeared by chance with the threaded menu branch because I had forgotten to load the pq curve and I started it with bt1886. So you might want to do a fresh install of your tool and see how it behaves. It's only after I saved all my parameters that I was able to display the plot info with a PQ curve before having to select BT1886 before. If there is a parameter to switch this info on/off, I have no idea what it is.

Thanks for the explanation for the first number in the input table, I'll edit the info in the post above. It looked like it was 0-255, but I made a wrong guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
How do you measure 50% white? If you expect 94 nits, it sounds like you are measuring an 8bit approximate 50% input signal (which is closer to 50.2%). If you have a 10 bit test pattern with a 50% white label, it might give a different result. I may add an option to select multiple grid options, but switching the x axis to use the same grid spacing as the current y axis (...,1,2,5,10,...) seems more useful than percent white values. Use the issue tracker, https://github.com/arvehj/jvcprojectortools/issues, if you have specific requests that you don't want me to forget.
I don't measure 50% white. I'm talking about the target for 50% white in the PQ curve (which is absolute, not relative, so the value is fixed). As far as I know, the target for 50% white in PQ gamma is 94.378nits. At least that's what Calman displays as the PQ target for 50% white (0.500 PQ) with ST2084 selected.

AFAIK there is no reference white defined in the ST2084 standard. 100nits is kept as a legacy reference white because that's what used to be reference white in HD/Rec-709/BT1886, with the highlights shooting up to 106%, but there is no special value or special control point at 100nits in PQ Gamma that I know of. Unlike with HD calibration, there is no known/fixed value that says where the highlights start in PQ. I don't even know which pattern we'd have to display to expect to measure 100nits, it would be between 50% and 55%, but that's all I know. The only values defined are 0% (level 64) for black at 0nits and 100% (level 940) white at 10,000nits (and all the values in between, but none with more weight than the others in the standard, only through usage/best practice). There is no value for a reference white anywhere in the curve.

This is why I suggest using 50% white, which is a known pattern close to the legacy reference white, easy to find and display, and which has a target in PQ Gamma of 94.378nits (unless Calman is wrong, but that's coherent with other sources). That way we could use a "reference" white that matches an easy pattern on a PQ curve, one that is used whether you use 10, 12 or 22 control points/measurement steps.

If you have any reason for using 100nits, I'd love to know what they are beyond the legacy reference white value used in HD/Rec-709/BT1886 calibration. If you have any part of the ST2084 standard mentioning reference white, please let us know what they are, in that case I am mistaken.

By the way I'm only mentioning this because in the plot I posted there is a value for 48nits input, which doesn't seem to be of any interest. I would find it more useful to have 94nits (or 100nits if you prefer to stick to the legacy value) to show "reference" white and its actual value on the Y axis. I agree that keeping the same spacing on both axis makes sense, I'm only suggesting this for the "remarkable" values in the curve, ie "reference" white (if added), start soft clip, hard clip values (both already shown).

Last edited by Manni01; 03-22-2017 at 03:51 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
I would have gone for the highest 1500 model on The Jungle for that price (still cheaper than BB & will do so too if you give the green light), but years ago when I had a fan issue on my RS55 the JVC technician told me till it gets fixed and if the power were to go out on me, to take a hair dryer with a cool shot mode and blow it into the intake manifold. Although I never had to do this I keep my wifes old hair dryer where the heating element failed, in my closet just in case!. That too I'll throw out if this works well (and it should... I just looked at specs and although it's not a perfect pure sine-wave [clips a bit at the high/low ends] it should be perfectly fine for consumer electronic devices).

If the power is out, how are you going to power the hair dryer?
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post #23179 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
How do I center the lens?

The entire time I've owned projectors I've never once touched the horizontal position.

I accidentally bumped the side button when it was on Lens Shift and now it's off center.

When I selected a Lens Memory preset it just adjusted the vertical position, staying off center.

When I selected 'Center Lens' it just moved all the way to the top and didn't adjust horizontal position.

I zoomed out to the edges of my 2.35:1 screen to align it, but I want it **perfectly** aligned. What do I do?
The early JVC RS500s are known to have buggy horizontal shifting. Mine EVENTUALLY moves if I keep hitting the shift, but then it jumps too much and I have to go the other way. Fortunately, it's not something that I need to use regularly (or at all after the first time dialing it in). If your's does not move at all, then you'll need it serviced.

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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
The early JVC RS500s are known to have buggy horizontal shifting. Mine EVENTUALLY moves if I keep hitting the shift, but then it jumps too much and I have to go the other way. Fortunately, it's not something that I need to use regularly (or at all after the first time dialing it in). If your's does not move at all, then you'll need it serviced.
Mine moves manually just fine. I just can't seem to figure out how to get it *perfectly* center. The Lens Center option just shifts the lens all the way to the top, which isn't the center of anything.
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post #23181 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If the power is out, how are you going to power the hair dryer?
I just make sure I eat I sack of White Castle's real quick which gives me plenty of "fuel" (I have a small Honda generator w/ a prewired run to my rack)!
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post #23182 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 06:13 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

These Fox 4K titles have messed up Gamma or something.

I've mentioned it and provided screenshots before but X-Men DOFP, Deadpool and now Assassin's Creed all have blown out skies and really dark shadows.

That was the reason I started messing with the custom Gamma. The image looks better overall but it did nothing for these Fox titles.

I don't know if it's all Fox but it's a lot of them.

Gamma D:


Normal Gamma:

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post #23183 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Thanks Arve. All of this might be in the wip branch, but this info never appeared for as long as I used it. It only appeared by chance with the threaded menu branch because I had forgotten to load the pq curve and I started it with bt1886. So you might want to do a fresh install of your tool and see how it behaves. It's only after I saved all my parameters that I was able to display the plot info with a PQ curve before having to select BT1886 before. If there is a parameter to switch this info on/off, I have no idea what it is.
I will try a fresh install, but I don't know why loading a bt1886 curve would change how the plot works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks for the explanation for the first number in the input table, I'll edit the info in the post above. It looked like it was 0-255, but I made a wrong guess



I don't measure 50% white. I'm talking about the target for 50% white in the PQ curve (which is absolute, not relative, so the value is fixed). As far as I know, the target for 50% white in PQ gamma is 94.378nits. At least that's what Calman displays as the PQ target for 50% white (0.500 PQ) with ST2084 selected.
I know it is absolute, but it is not 94.378 nits. If you pass 0.5 to the pq eotf you get less than 94 nits.

EDIT:
You can use a python shell if you want to convert values:
> py -i eotf_pq.py

>>> L(0.5)*peak
92.24570899406527
>>> L(round((940-64)/2/4)*4/(940-64))*peak
94.37844745659964

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
AFAIK there is no reference white defined in the ST2084 standard. 100nits is kept as a legacy reference white because that's what used to be reference white in HD/Rec-709/BT1886, with the highlights shooting up to 106%, but there is no special value or special control point at 100nits in PQ Gamma that I know of. Unlike with HD calibration, there is no known/fixed value that says where the highlights start in PQ. I don't even know which pattern we'd have to display to expect to measure 100nits, it would be between 50% and 55%, but that's all I know. The only values defined are 0% (level 64) for black at 0nits and 100% (level 960) white at 10,000nits (and all the values in between, but none with more weight than the others in the standard, only through usage/best practice). There is no value for a reference white anywhere in the curve.

This is why I suggest using 50% white, which is a known pattern close to the legacy reference white, easy to find and display, and which has a target in PQ Gamma of 94.378nits (unless Calman is wrong, but that's coherent with other sources). That way we could use a "reference" white that matches an easy pattern on a PQ curve, one that is used whether you use 10, 12 or 22 control points/measurement steps.

If you have any reason for using 100nits, I'd love to know what they are beyond the legacy reference white value used in HD/Rec-709/BT1886 calibration. If you have any part of the ST2084 standard mentioning reference white, please let us know what they are, in that case I am mistaken.
There are HDR test patterns labeled 100nits. If you measure this, it should match the reference white value you selected. I have not read the ST2084 standard, so I don't know if it mention anything about a reference white, but I did see 100 nits reference white mentioned in some places that describe ST2084 (e.g. http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html, https://assets.pro.sony.eu/Web/commo..._Explained.pdf). The BT.2100 recommendation, which defines the same eotf, does not mention a reference white, but it is not relevant to the transfer function anyway.

(Peak white is 940, not 960, as a 10 bit input value)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

By the way I'm only mentioning this because in the plot I posted there is a value for 48nits input, which doesn't seem to be of any interest. I would find it more useful to have 94nits (or 100nits if you prefer to stick to the legacy value) to show "reference" white and its actual value on the Y axis. I agree that keeping the same spacing on both axis makes sense, I'm only suggesting this for the "remarkable" values in the curve, ie "reference" white (if added), start soft clip, hard clip values (both already shown).
The 48nit label is not special, it is just the first label that could be displayed on your screen without overlapping with a previous label or with a special label. I don't currently have an inverse eotf, so adding nits based labels to the x axis is not as simple as adding them to y axis.

Last edited by arve; 03-21-2017 at 09:12 PM.
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post #23184 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 09:52 PM
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Unhappy DLA-RS500U Synch / Display Issue

Hello, First time poster.




I have a 2 month old DLA-RS500U. Great projector. Amazing picture. I have had a re-occurring issue were the projector will display colored vertical bars, switching sources and back to the Bly Ray player. (see Attached Picture) I changed HDMI cables, tried connecting direct Bypassing my AV Pre-amp. Even used HDMI 1 & 2 on the JVC. I initially though it to be an intermittent issue with the Samsung UBD-K8500. I returned it and got another one. same issue. Since I was not a real fan and wanted a good SACD player as well, I Finally Decided to buy an Oppo UDP-203. Still have the same intermittent vertical bar issue if I switch to say the new ROKU Ultra. The only way I can stop it once it starts with the vertical noise bars is to totally power down the JVC, wait and power it back on again. It works fine, most of the time until I try switching inputs again to another 4K or 1080P Video device like the ROKU Ultra. I have to power down the JVC again and power it back on after its cool down
Has anyone else seen this issue? any suggestions?
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post #23185 of 31897 Old 03-21-2017, 11:12 PM
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The JVC projectors are notorious with handshaking issues with the HDMI ports... The symptoms you are having is exactly what I am experiencing with my JVC RS-57U. I know it is hard to believe but they have not been able to fix this problem for the past couple generation of projectors. High speed certified cables help but does not resolve the issue.

One person i know was able to fix his synching issues by using really expensive Audioquest HDMI cables (I think it was the Carbon line, i know it had a silver/copper mix in the wiring).

What type of HDMI cables are you using? Most of the time, using a better cable helps... That's all I know...

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post #23186 of 31897 Old 03-22-2017, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
I will try a fresh install, but I don't know why loading a bt1886 curve would change how the plot works.
I don't know either. I only know that the first time I ever saw this info on the plot is after I installed the threaded menu branch (full folder from the zip extracted in another folder, separate from the wip or main branch so that I could keep both), went to ga and selected p. It showed the plot info for the first time ever. For a while, if I went to ga after re-launching the program, if PQ was selected it would show no plot (same as wip). I had to select bt1886, then select pq again for the plot info to show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
I know it is absolute, but it is not 94.378 nits. If you pass 0.5 to the pq eotf you get less than 94 nits.

EDIT:
You can use a python shell if you want to convert values:
> py -i eotf_pq.py

>>> L(0.5)*peak
92.24570899406527
>>> L(round((940-64)/2/4)*4/(940-64))*peak
94.37844745659964
The PQ target for 0.5PQ in Calman is exactly the same as the number in the second example above (94.378nits), which is the number I mentioned in my last post. It is the target for the 50% pattern displayed by Calman when measuring 21steps in 5% increments, which is the most common way to calibrate greyscale. I attach a screenshot so you can see what I mean.

If you believe this is incorrect, I'll report this to Spectracal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
There are HDR test patterns labeled 100nits. If you measure this, it should match the reference white value you selected. I have not read the ST2084 standard, so I don't know if it mention anything about a reference white, but I did see 100 nits reference white mentioned in some places that describe ST2084 (e.g. http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html, https://assets.pro.sony.eu/Web/commo..._Explained.pdf). The BT.2100 recommendation, which defines the same eotf, does not mention a reference white, but it is not relevant to the transfer function anyway.

(Peak white is 940, not 960, as a 10 bit input value)
Thanks for the typo on peak white, I've corrected this in my post.

As I said, 100nits is a legacy reference white value. It is still used by colorists when they grade for HDR because it makes their SDR grade easier. I am sure there are 100nits manual patterns floating around for this reason. But it's not part of the standard. I'm sure that Light Illusion would mention it for simplicity, as a shortcut, but it wouldn't be the first time they are not 100% correct regarding standards. It took them a while to implement BT1886 properly.

I have stopped using manual patterns for calibration about a decade ago, so I'm not going back there when calibrating.

I really don't mind which value you choose. I was only pointing out that AFAIK, there is no reference white defined in the standard, and that the closest value used in a standard calibration layout was 94.378nits, which it 50% white according to Calman.

This is the value that most professional calibrators not using manual patterns but using an automatic pattern generator will use. It's up to you to decide whether you want to use a legacy value for this (100nits), which calibrators won't be able to measure easily using a pattern generator (100% of pro and most enthusiasts do it that way), or if you prefer to use a value which means something in PQ terms, i.e. 50% white and is therefore measured during an HDR calibration. If Calman's value of 94.378nits is wrong, I'll report it and they'll correct it, so let's not argue about the actual number if you believe it's wrong. What's important is for you to make a decision regarding which "reference white" it is more useful to have in your software, a legacy value that doesn't have any corresponding pattern in a professional (and enthusiast) calibration layout, or a value that is measured in every greyscale sweep when using automatic pattern generators, whether it's done in 11 or 21steps (the most commonly used increments).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arve View Post
The 48nit label is not special, it is just the first label that could be displayed on your screen without overlapping with a previous label or with a special label. I don't currently have an inverse eotf, so adding nits based labels to the x axis is not as simple as adding them to y axis.
Understood, that's what I thought. It just seems to me that just as you add soft start and hard clip points to the plot (outside of the normal spacing) so we can clearly see where they end, you could do the same for "reference white" as it looks like you'd have the space to do this around the area used by this random 48nits value.

You don't have to start from x, you can start from the value you have for y, just like for the two other values. It doesn't matter at all if it says exactly 94.378nits on x (assuming this is the correct value for 50% white) or something slightly different. It's just a useful value (whether you choose to go with 100 or 94nits) to have on the plot, so we can see easily what's before and after "reference white" on the curve. You don't show the exact value input for hard clip either on x, and it doesn't matter, it shows where we hard clip on the plot, and that's useful.

Just to clarify, I'm fine with no values at all on the plot, your tool is great as it is for me, I'm only trying to help making it more useful to others. So don't waste any time doing anything for me. I make suggestions, if you like them, take them, if you don't, leave them and spend the time on more important stuff

Keep up the good work!
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post #23187 of 31897 Old 03-22-2017, 06:39 AM
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What HDMI cable am I using?

First I used KAYO PLATINUM Hi-Speed HDMI2.0 Cable 25 FT/ PREMIUM NYLON Sleeve, Cable Tie/ Supports Ethernet,3D,4K & Audio Return, than I tried the BlueRigger High Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet, Supports 3D and Audio Return (25 Feet) Supports Latest HDMI 2.0b Standard - 4K, UHD, 3D, Audio Return Channel (ARC), Category 2 Certified,18 Gbps / 600 MHz Refresh Rate, 2160p, 1080p, 48 Bit Deep Color, Ethernet


Thank you
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post #23188 of 31897 Old 03-22-2017, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
These Fox 4K titles have messed up Gamma or something.

I've mentioned it and provided screenshots before but X-Men DOFP, Deadpool and now Assassin's Creed all have blown out skies and really dark shadows.

That was the reason I started messing with the custom Gamma. The image looks better overall but it did nothing for these Fox titles.

I don't know if it's all Fox but it's a lot of them.

Gamma D:


Normal Gamma:
Not sure what you're looking for us to comment on or confirm here but yes base Gamma D baalooows from JVC which is why you should at the very least use Gamma M (Manni's custom gammas), or learn how to use Arve's tool to create your own (Manni's is the easiest & quickest tho).

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post #23189 of 31897 Old 03-22-2017, 09:27 AM
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I have a question. I have the RS600 with 800+ hours on it and will be changing the bulb out soon. Will it hurt the projector or the bulb socket area, if I were to change them back and forth sometimes. If I want to watch a ton of TV on the weekend, I am fine with the old bulb, but movies I want the new bulb in? Or should spend the $441 every 7-800 hours and be done with it haha.


Also on "Assassins Creed 4K" there were a lot of washed out scenes. Only Gamma C(which I hate using) looked the best for that dark film.


Where is Manni's Gamma numbers at in this 23,000 posts?

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post #23190 of 31897 Old 03-22-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveFred View Post
I have a question. I have the RS600 with 800+ hours on it and will be changing the bulb out soon. Will it hurt the projector or the bulb socket area, if I were to change them back and forth sometimes. If I want to watch a ton of TV on the weekend, I am fine with the old bulb, but movies I want the new bulb in? Or should spend the $441 every 7-800 hours and be done with it haha.


Also on "Assassins Creed 4K" there were a lot of washed out scenes. Only Gamma C(which I hate using) looked the best for that dark film.


Where is Manni's Gamma numbers at in this 23,000 posts?
I'm at 2000 hours and have lost very little brightness from my bulb. In low power, I get 110 nits with the filter engaged with a 100 IRE full screen image, so I've lost maybe 25% of my bulb brightness. For TV, I watch with the Iris at -10 and get 23 foot lamberts and it's plenty bright even with the lights on.
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