Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 775 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23221 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
The image I posted was the custom gamma curve. I wrote Gamma D because I didn't want all the questions to be about my Gamma settings. The custom gamma definitely looks better and improves the overall image of every UHD, but these handful of Fox titles are too far off to make a difference with Gamma. I just cannot believe that nobody else is seeing this. I'd love to see some pics of what the below image looks like on your projectors.

Something just looks off with these UHD discs and turning on Gamma D. The colors punch up real nice, but the shadow detail is abolished. I tried just leaving it in normal gamma and cinema mode but everything looks washed out.


Projector Settings:
Spoiler!


Any help would be appreciated.
Which "custom" Gamma are you using (did you import and into which custom slot)?

I also noticed last night Assassins Creed looked dark using my Arve Gamma and Oppo showed 0Nit for mastering floor (instead of .5). I have change my Oppo user settings to make it look "right" (and you also need to bump up color too).
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post #23222 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
His 400 curve shouldn't look that bad...I'm sensing he is perhaps doing something wrong or his gamma D keeps kicking in...
Remind me of the params used in the 400 curve again? Nothing is being my curves for low nit screens, count on it.
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post #23223 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Which "custom" Gamma are you using (did you import and into which custom slot)?
He's clearly doing something wrong...
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post #23224 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by unknownbeef View Post
Sorry, newb question. What do you do with the light meter? As in, what software are you using to calibrate whatever measurements you are taking with it?

And, how is that light meter different from this http://www.chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

Thanks so much, just trying to learn
Generally speaking, a dedicated light meter will be more accurate than using the meter you linked to ( which I also have with Chromapure ) for measuring lumens. You can use a light meter to check how bright your picture is ( while calibrating with Chromapure, or to adjust your iris between 16:9 and 2.35:1 aspect ratios perhaps ). But most important IMO, you can use one to track your lamp as it ages, to see when you might need to open the iris more to maintain a certain number of foot lamberts, when to switch to high lamp, and finally, when to replace your lamp - which I do based on brightness, not how many hours I have.
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post #23225 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
Which "custom" Gamma are you using (did you import and into which custom slot)?
Yes it's on import. I am using Zombies quick start settings and tried 400, 600 and 800. It largely looks like Gamma D (So far as I can tell, I think everyone would agree the custom Gamma curves look closer to Gamma D than Gamma Normal, that is what I mean).
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post #23226 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Thank you. I appreciate the link so I know I'm on the right track.

I'll try it, but like I said, these Gamma curves are an exercise in nuance. Even if I zoom all the way in to make it as small as possible it will still look like the picture I showed. It's not like it magically looks perfect if it's smaller.

The problem is the brights are too bright and the darks are too dark. But only on a handful of UHD's, the rest look great.

I really do think the majority have this same problem since when I first brought this up was before custom Gamma and people claimed to have no problem.

It's just frustrating because it's only on some movies which is why I think everyone has this same problem.

I'd love to see a pic of that Deadpool scene on your screen. I'd bet it's similar.
No chance it is similar. I've watched that movie with this curve. I may not have a chance to test that scene until a few days, as I'm knee-deep in some autocal experiments. But you should try my curves and report back here. Let me know if you like it better. Spoiler alert - you're welcome. And if not, something's not right with your setup.
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post #23227 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Remind me of the params used in the 400 curve again? Nothing is being my curves for low nit screens, count on it.
I don't have the parms at work here but I think the ratio is 4:1 which should make for a fairly bright curve

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post #23228 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Remind me of the params used in the 400 curve again? Nothing is being my curves for low nit screens, count on it.
I don't have the parms at work here but I think the ratio is 4:1 which should make for a fairly bright curve
Too bright. That's the problem. I've spent enough time to know. He will like my curves.
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post #23229 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
The UH480 lens is saving your butt big time on the brightness. You couldn't fill that screen with the zoom method otherwise and have enough brightness. Nice. Can you use an A-lens without any downsides if you don't have a curved screen?

Likewise am I correct to assume that whatever brightness I have with 16:9 image I would have about the same (minus a little loss from the extra glass/lens) brightness with 2.40 movies on my scoped screen (viewed in full screen, no bars) if I was using an A-lens?

Anyone see where I am going with this?
Yes the A-lens helps a ton on the brightness for me Lots of people use A-lens without a curved screen. You will just have a little pin cushion effect, you can minimize by spilling a little on the edges.

Yes, it would be the same brightness of the 16:9 image minus a bit of light loss thru the glass.

I did the zoom method in my 1st theater and it was fine, but I absolutely love having the A-lens now and would not want to go without it. Plus I made a DYI slide for 16:9 movies/cable etc and have side panels I put up.

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post #23230 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Do you have a link?

I'll try it, but like I said, these Gamma curves are an exercise in nuance. Even if I zoom all the way in to make it as small as possible it will still look like the picture I showed. It's not like it magically looks perfect if it's smaller.

The problem is the brights are too bright and the darks are too dark. But only on a handful of UHD's, the rest look great.
I linked Ric's curves for dim screens in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread, in the download gamma curves section.
I doubt this will solve the issue. You have a levels problem, not a gamma problem.
In gamma D with dark gamma at +5, you're killing your black floor and contrast ratio, but you're not crushing shadow detail.
Check that the Samsung is sending video (standard) levels and not RGB/enhanced or superwhite.
Check that the projector is set to HDMI standard.
Deadpool never looks like that in HDR on a properly set up system, at least not with the Pana UB900 set to send HDR 12bits YCC 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 in HDMI standard.
Until you get it correct in Gamma D with the parameters you are using (+14/+5/+4), there is no point testing a custom curve, your set up is wrong.
Have you set brightness/contrast properly? As you're not using a custom curve, you need to.
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Last edited by Manni01; 03-22-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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post #23231 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:27 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

I know phone pics aren't perfect, it they get the point across.

Low Lamp, Cinema Picture Mode & Color Profile, Normal Gamma:


High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma D:


High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma lovingdvd custom low:


High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma lovingdvd custom high:


High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma Zombie QuickStart at 400:
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post #23232 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I know phone pics aren't perfect, it they get the point across.
You had made your point clear with the first pictures. There is something wrong with your levels. It has nothing to do with gamma. Did you see my post above yours?
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post #23233 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Generally speaking, a dedicated light meter will be more accurate than using the meter you linked to ( which I also have with Chromapure ) for measuring lumens. You can use a light meter to check how bright your picture is ( while calibrating with Chromapure, or to adjust your iris between 16:9 and 2.35:1 aspect ratios perhaps ). But most important IMO, you can use one to track your lamp as it ages, to see when you might need to open the iris more to maintain a certain number of foot lamberts, when to switch to high lamp, and finally, when to replace your lamp - which I do based on brightness, not how many hours I have.
So, the light meter is good for checking overall light output, and adjusting the iris accordingly (to get your target lumens / foot lamberts on the screen).
The colorimeter is used for creating color profiles and gamma curves.

Am I on the right track?
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post #23234 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by unknownbeef View Post
So, the light meter is good for checking overall light output, and adjusting the iris accordingly (to get your target lumens / foot lamberts on the screen).
The colorimeter is used for creating color profiles and gamma curves.

Am I on the right track?
Yes!
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post #23235 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:44 PM
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post #23236 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Too bright. That's the problem. I've spent enough time to know. He will like my curves.
What approx multiplier do u end up with for a 1000 nit title like Deadpool?

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post #23237 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:52 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Until you get it correct in Gamma D with the parameters you are using (+14/+5/+4), there is no point testing a custom curve, your set up is wrong.
I agree 100% I just can't imagine what's wrong. I've tried Picture mode Standard and User on 0's on the Samsung.

There are not many picture options on the Samsung and I've left them on Auto.

I just tried HDMI Color from Auto to YCbCr(4:4:4) and it looked the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You had made your point clear with the first pictures. There is something wrong with your levels. It has nothing to do with gamma.
I know right?

There are only so many settings. I don't know what I'm doing wrong:

Spoiler!


Please, please, please tell me what you see wrong. I'd love it if a setting was off and I could make it better.

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post #23238 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I agree 100% I just can't imagine what's wrong. I've tried Picture mode Standard and User on 0's on the Samsung.

There are not many picture options on the Samsung and I've left them on Auto.

I just tried HDMI Color from Auto to YCbCr(4:4:4) and it looked the same.



I know right?

There are only so many settings. I don't know what I'm doing wrong:

Spoiler!


Please, please, please tell me what you see wrong. I'd love it if a setting was off and I could make it better.

Looks like u r using gamma d instead of custom 1,2, or 3 and import option

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post #23239 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Do you have a link?

I'll try it, but like I said, these Gamma curves are an exercise in nuance. Even if I zoom all the way in to make it as small as possible it will still look like the picture I showed. It's not like it magically looks perfect if it's smaller.

The problem is the brights are too bright and the darks are too dark. But only on a handful of UHD's, the rest look great.
Have you used lovingdvd's "Speed Guide" in this post here?

Pretty fast and simple, and you should be able to get those bright areas looking better.

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post #23240 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:01 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Looks like u r using gamma d instead of custom 1,2, or 3 and import option
Doesn't matter. They all look like crap. I've already posted pics of various custom gammas like 20 minutes ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Have you used lovingdvd's "Speed Guide" in this post here?



Pretty fast and simple, and you should be able to get those bright areas looking better.
Posted pics of 2 of his custom curves 20 minutes ago. Still looks like crap.

I just posted TONS of pics of various Gamma settings and ALL of my projector/player settings so all my info is on here and hopefully someone can point out what's wrong.

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post #23241 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:05 PM
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Doesn't matter. They all look like crap. I've already posted pics of various custom gammas like 20 minutes ago.


Posted pics of 2 of his custom curves 20 minutes ago. Still looks like crap.
No, you missed my point. If you're just using some of the curves he created, then they are likely not going to work on your setup.

Look at the post I linked to. You'll need to use Arve's Software, hook up a PC/Laptop to your Projector, and then following the simple instructions, create your own curve. Using Option 3 enables you to use the Contrast control on your Projector to get the bright areas looking right, and then it adjust the curve accordingly. You then write that curve to your Projector, and you can use it whenever you want.

This gives you a custom curve tuned to your setup. It should look much better than what you're seeing, because you can control how it looks.

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post #23242 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:08 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
No, you missed my point. If you're just using some of the curves he created, then they are likely not going to work on your setup.



Look at the post I linked to. You'll need to use Arve's Software, hook up a PC/Laptop to your Projector, and then following the simple instructions, create your own curve. Using Option 3 enables you to use the Contrast control on your Projector to get the bright areas looking right, and then it adjust the curve accordingly. You then write that curve to your Projector, and you can use it whenever you want.



This gives you a custom curve tuned to your setup. It should look much better than what you're seeing, because you can control how it looks.
I see.

Well, as Manny pointed out a few posts ago, he thinks my PQ is further out of whack than it should be using the JVC HDR settings and Gamma D. I agree with him and want to get that right first before playing around with custom fine tuning.

I just don't know what could be wrong as regular Blu-ray discs look great and so do a lot of UHD's...
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post #23243 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
There are only so many settings. I don't know what I'm doing wrong:

Please, please, please tell me what you see wrong. I'd love it if a setting was off and I could make it better.

Again forget the custom curves for now until you get gamma D with the settings you have listed to display a picture without crushing shadow detail. Custom curves won't help if you crush shadow details in Gamma D with dark gamma at +5. Keep gamma D until this is solved.

In the projector, set HDMI to standard instead of auto
In the Samsung, select YCC 4:4:4 instead of auto
Set deep color to on (although that might cause some issues if you don't have a good enough cable as the Samsung displays menus at 60p in UHD).
Others with a Samsung might advise on the settings to use for this player. The Samsung is a poor player...
In the JVC, check that the Info screen displays YUV HDR 12bits when playing an HDR title, and that BT2020 and Gamma D are selected in your user preset.
Once all this is validated, use black clipping/white clipping patterns (SONY UHD Bluray or R. Masciola) to set brightness and contrast properly, i.e. to resolve down to level 68 and up to say 2500nits. There is a link in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread about using bright gamma instead of contrast to set the clipping point, but to start with simply use contrast (raise/lower contrast until you resolve at least up to 1200nits if you test with Deadpool, at least up to 2500nits if you test with a 4000nits title).

If none of this makes sense, ask a more knowledgeable friend or a calibrator to set up your projector for you.

Once your levels are set properly and things work as expected with gamma D, time to set your brightness/contrast to 0 in HDR and move to autocal / custom curves, but I would strongly suggest you leave this to someone else.

Good luck!

Last edited by Manni01; 03-22-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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post #23244 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I see.

Well, as Manny pointed out a few posts ago, he thinks my PQ is further out of whack than it should be using the JVC HDR settings and Gamma D. I agree with him and want to get that right first before playing around with custom fine tuning.
The general opinion here is that to get the best out of your projector (other than hiring a professional calibrator) is to do a JVC Autocalibration. This will tune up the projector overall, and give you a substantial percentage of what the projector is capable of doing.

And then do a Custom Curve for HDR, as outlined in that Speed Guide. This is actually a pretty simple, quick process, which can be done at any time. It wouldn't be a big deal to try it out before you gear-up and learn how to do the JVC Autocalibration.

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post #23245 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
The general opinion here is that to get the best out of your projector (other than hiring a professional calibrator) is to do a JVC Autocalibration. This will tune up the projector overall, and give you a substantial percentage of what the projector is capable of doing.

And then do a Custom Curve for HDR, as outlined in that Speed Guide. This is actually a pretty simple, quick process, which can be done at any time. It wouldn't be a big deal to try it out before you gear-up and learn how to do the JVC Autocalibration.
There is no point in doing a JVC autocal or trying custom curves until the set-up is correct. Gamma D has issues, but with dark gamma at +5 it shouldn't crush shadow detail. Until this is fixed, no point in trying more complicated stuff. It's definitely not a calibration issue (not that an autocal would not improve results, just that it will not solve the issue).
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post #23246 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I know phone pics aren't perfect, it they get the point across.

Low Lamp, Cinema Picture Mode & Color Profile, Normal Gamma:

High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma D:

High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma lovingdvd custom low:

High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma lovingdvd custom high

High Lamp, JVC HDR Picture Mode, BT.2020 Color Profile, Gamma Zombie QuickStart at 400:
First of all, stop looking at 'Normal Gamma' It is completely incorrect for the UHD BR source you are looking at since its encoded in HDR.

You are comparing an image like this:



When it SHOULD look like this:



So, while you can use normal gamma just to check if there is any black crush in the source itself, not YOUR image, looks you are having a little black crush issues it seems, as that should not be quite so dark in HDR regardless, but do one thing right now, throw out your concept of 'Normal Gamma'. Nothing in HDR is going to look close to it, and for good reason. You are looking at a completely flat, log like gamma that way and its not how UHDBR is designed.

Have you set your brightness levels according to the instructions properly and confirmed via BLACK CLIPPING patterns that you are not crushing blacks? That will make or break a curve. Or any curve.

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post #23247 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Yes!
Awesome!

Last question: Is my Spyder5Elite good for anything other than the JVC autocal (I have the rs520 so I'm using v9)
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post #23248 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
There is no point in doing a JVC autocal or trying custom curves until the set-up is correct. Gamma D has issues, but with dark gamma at +5 it shouldn't crush shadow detail. Until this is fixed, no point in trying more complicated stuff. It's definitely not a calibration issue (not that an autocal would not improve results, just that it will not solve the issue).
Gotcha.

What I was suggesting assumed the basic overall settings were correct and in order. But if that's not the case, then clearly this needs to be attended to first.
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post #23249 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 04:20 PM
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Again forget the custom curves for now until you get gamma D with the settings you have listed to display a picture without crushing shadow detail. Custom curves won't help if you crush shadow details in Gamma D with dark gamma at +5. Keep gamma D until this is solved.



In the projector, set HDMI to standard instead of auto

In the Samsung, select YCC 4:4:4 instead of auto

Set deep color to on (although that might cause some issues if you don't have a good enough cable as the Samsung displays menus at 60p in UHD).

Others with a Samsung might advise on the settings to use for this player. The Samsung is a poor player...

In the JVC, check that the Info screen displays YUV HDR 12bits when playing an HDR title, and that BT2020 and Gamma D are selected in your user preset.

Once all this is validated, use black clipping/white clipping patterns (SONY UHD Bluray or R. Masciola) to set brightness and contrast properly, i.e. to resolve down to level 68 and up to say 2500nits. There is a link in the first post of the JVC Autocal thread about using bright gamma instead of contrast to set the clipping point, but to start with simply use contrast (raise/lower contrast until you resolve at least up to 1200nits if you test with Deadpool, at least up to 2500nits if you test with a 4000nits title).



If none of this makes sense, ask a more knowledgeable friend or a calibrator to set up your projector for you.



Once your levels are set properly and things work as expected with gamma D, time to set your brightness/contrast to 0 in HDR and move to autocal / custom curves, but I would strongly suggest you leave this to someone else.



Good luck!
Okay. I've done everything you said and it does show 12-bit during playback.

At Gamma D and +5 black (same settings as screen shots), even at MAX brightness and MAX contrast I cannot resolve below 0.0100. I get 2500 at -2 contrast and 0 brightness.

Image still looks similar to pics posted earlier and I put in the regular Blu-ray on Cinema and low lamp and it still looked better. :/

What now?

Last edited by Dreamliner; 03-22-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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post #23250 of 31902 Old 03-22-2017, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Okay. I've done everything you said and it does show 12-bit during playback.

At Gamma D and +5 black (same settings as screen shots), even at MAX brightness and MAX contrast I cannot resolve below 0.0100. I get 2500 at -2 contrast and 0 brightness.

Image still looks similar to pics posted earlier and I put in the regular Blu-ray on Cinema and low lamp and it still looked better. :/

What now?
Hire a pro
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