Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 786 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23551 of 31985 Old 04-01-2017, 07:13 PM
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@claw - I added the following titles to your Google spreadsheet:

Inferno
Journey to Space
The Last Reef Cities Beneath the Sea
Flight of the Butterflies
Concussion
Rocky Mountain Express
The Shallows

Thanks for starting this...
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post #23552 of 31985 Old 04-01-2017, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
@claw - I added the following titles to your Google spreadsheet:

Inferno
Journey to Space
The Last Reef Cities Beneath the Sea
Flight of the Butterflies
Concussion
Rocky Mountain Express
The Shallows

Thanks for starting this...
Seems a little strange to see that Rocky Mountain Express and The Last Reef have black level values of 0.0001.

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post #23553 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Seems a little strange to see that Rocky Mountain Express and The Last Reef have black level values of 0.0001.
Flight of the Butterflies & Journey to Space have the same black level as well...strange indeed. All four titles are from Shout Factory...
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post #23554 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 12:00 PM
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Wow!!

23,000 posts later and everyone must be off enjoying their custom curves and DI!!! Awesome! Thanks to everyone for figuring this out...a whack of work by a few of you!!
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post #23555 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:16 PM
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For folks using HDR with a custom curve, when playing a HDR source, which switches to Gamma D, I then select the user picture mode which has the Gamma memory selected with the imported curve, but when I select it, it stays on Gamma D until I go in and select that Gamma memory? Am I missing something? Thanks. SJ
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post #23556 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:20 PM
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Does anyone know why CMD has to be set to OFF for Roku Ultras the work? Why would that cause the vertical line issues, etc. which many have commented on that if not set to off you sometimes have to power cycle the projector. Seems strange,but I'm also having issues which turning CMD off seems to fix. SJ
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post #23557 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
For folks using HDR with a custom curve, when playing a HDR source, which switches to Gamma D, I then select the user picture mode which has the Gamma memory selected with the imported curve, but when I select it, it stays on Gamma D until I go in and select that Gamma memory? Am I missing something? Thanks. SJ
Between starting the disc in your player, getting through the production intros, then disc menu, then play the movie -- the JVC will auto flip to Gamma D 2 or 3 times... Wait until after you hit play from the disc menu and once you start hearing production intro music/sound you need to pause the movie -- switch off Gamma D and onto your Custom Gamma curve. Then watch the movie.

The linker allows you hide/mask the HDR metadata info while retaining the HDR data signal. This way, the JVC doesn't autoswitch to Gamma D and you gain access to the DI which is normally disabled when JVC is in HDR mode.

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post #23558 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Between starting the disc in your player, getting through the production intros, then disc menu, then play the movie -- the JVC will auto flip to Gamma D 2 or 3 times... Wait until after you hit play from the disc menu and once you start hearing production intro music/sound you need to pause the movie -- switch off Gamma D and onto your Custom Gamma curve. Then watch the movie.

The linker allows you hide/mask the HDR metadata info while retaining the HDR data signal. This way, the JVC doesn't autoswitch to Gamma D and you gain access to the DI which is normally disabled when JVC is in HDR mode.
The locking of the gamma to custom is worth the price of the Linker alone, not to mention we get our DI back!!! (Biggggg bonus!!!)
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post #23559 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Between starting the disc in your player, getting through the production intros, then disc menu, then play the movie -- the JVC will auto flip to Gamma D 2 or 3 times... Wait until after you hit play from the disc menu and once you start hearing production intro music/sound you need to pause the movie -- switch off Gamma D and onto your Custom Gamma curve. Then watch the movie.

The linker allows you hide/mask the HDR metadata info while retaining the HDR data signal. This way, the JVC doesn't autoswitch to Gamma D and you gain access to the DI which is normally disabled when JVC is in HDR mode.
Does HDR yes, just turn on Gamma D only or does it do anything else with the projector. I could strip it out with my Lumagen Pro. Maybe I should do that instead. SJ
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post #23560 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Does HDR yes, just turn on Gamma D only or does it do anything else with the projector. I could strip it out with my Lumagen Pro. Maybe I should do that instead. SJ
I recall another user saying they could do this with their Lumagen Pro-- I would look into that for sure. If you get your Lumagen to block the HDR metadata while retaining HDR signal, you shouldn't have to bother with Gamma D ever again.

Until you get that going though-- Once you start your main feature (in HDR), pause it, switch Gamma D to your Custom Gamma curve and you're all set.

Every time the JVC re-detects an HDR signal it will automatically switch to Gamma D.
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post #23561 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
The locking of the gamma to custom is worth the price of the Linker alone, not to mention we get our DI back!!! (Biggggg bonus!!!)
You know life is good with the RS500/600 when this thread settles down due to everyone enjoying their equipment.

I just got Passengers and Kingmen for my birthday -- though we decided to watch Prometheus instead 1080 -> 4k via MadVr scaling. Awesome movie and boy does this projector make it look good.

Only 24 more days until ChadB makes his way over!!

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post #23562 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
You know life is good with the RS500/600 when this thread settles down due to everyone enjoying their equipment.

I just got Passengers and Kingmen for my birthday -- though we decided to watch Prometheus instead 1080 -> 4k via MadVr scaling. Awesome movie and boy does this projector make it look good.

Only 24 more days until ChadB makes his way over!!
Passengers looks incredible! Happy B-day!
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post #23563 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 06:36 PM
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I had a strange occurrence. I put in a UHD disc I had previously started and it asked me if I'd like to resume playback, as usual. I selected yes and the movie started playing. I then went to switch to my custom gamma but it was already on it! How was this possible when I don't have a linker? I mean it reverts to gamma D just by having it paused too long. How would it stay on custom after the disc had been removed and then resumed? I'll check it again later to make sure I wasn't daydreaming. But I was shocked.
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post #23564 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 06:40 PM
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He worked on D and also provided Custom Curve. The Custom Curve looked AMAZING. Its Chad who did it. I now wish I didn't have him calibrate. Let me explain why. Once you see the image that is calibrated, it just spoils you. I very recently also purchased OLED C65 2016 model. Amazing TV and craxy contrast but since its not calibrated, it doesn't look right. I see all the issues with colors and what not and what not. Now I have to wait till he gets back . I'm soooo spoiled.
Do you happen to know if Chad makes calibration trips to West Coast/Southern Cal, etc.? Thanks.

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post #23565 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 08:34 PM
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quick reminder, BB is shipping the 3D version of Rogue One for only $24.95

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/rogue-on...?skuId=5734302

my copy already shipped, I forgot I ordered this about 2 weeks ago.
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Does anyone know why CMD has to be set to OFF for Roku Ultras the work? Why would that cause the vertical line issues, etc. which many have commented on that if not set to off you sometimes have to power cycle the projector. Seems strange,but I'm also having issues which turning CMD off seems to fix. SJ
We are waiting to hear back from @Mike Garrett on it, who is checking with JVC. Mike, any word? Thanks.
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post #23566 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 08:39 PM
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I don't think I ever said that Ric would never find a decent compromise. I only said that it would take a lot of time and that he would probably end up not very far from SDR BT2020 given that he had less than 50nits to play with anyway.

It took Ric more than 100 hours of experimentation to get his curve(s), plus $199 for the Linker, and we still don't know if the PQ is significantly better than the SDR BT2020 he already had with his Integral...

For me the point of HDR with a projector is to have specular highlights above 100nits and better color saturation, especially with high luminance. That's not something you can get on a projector with 50nits, as you're forced to have reference white around 10nits or less and to clip highlights way before 4000nits.

I'm really glad that Ric ended up with good compromise curves, but I'd still like to know whether that was - objectively - worth spending 100+ hours and $200 compared to the SDR BT2020 he already had with the Integral and the UB900. If he has commented on this, I missed the post. I suspect he had to clip at around the same point to get enough brightness in SDR BT2020, so overall it's a lot of time and money for a difference I can't appreciate, only he can.

I still think that below 100nits, if you already have an Integral and an UB900, you're really onto diminishing returns compared to using SDR BT2020 with your peak brightness, whatever it is, (as you can already reclaim the DI doing this).

If you don't have an Integral/UB900 combo already, or if you have at least 100nits peak brightness or close, then yes, sure, get a custom curve and a Linker, that's a no-brainer, but that wasn't Ric's situation.
The short answer is Yes, I can say that it was well worth it. Even if my picture is more like an excellent SDR curve, it is consistent, no messing with Panny settings, SDR sliders etc. Regardless of whether its a 1000 or 4000 nit title, 0 nit black of 0.005 nit black - I just put on the same custom curve every time (Medium) and it looks incredible. I have not done extensive A/B testing. I did some a few weeks ago and I preferred the way the custom curve looked. And it is great to just put on a title and not have to think about the details or mess with any settings. I will do more A/B testing as time permits, but for now I got way to burned out from all the late night sessions (between this and the discovery of the weak autocal color calibration), and instead I am just enjoying watching movies.
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post #23567 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 10:05 PM
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Do you happen to know if Chad makes calibration trips to West Coast/Southern Cal, etc.? Thanks.
He did last year and I missed him. He told me maybe later this year.....
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post #23568 of 31985 Old 04-02-2017, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I recall another user saying they could do this with their Lumagen Pro-- I would look into that for sure. If you get your Lumagen to block the HDR metadata while retaining HDR signal, you shouldn't have to bother with Gamma D ever again.

Until you get that going though-- Once you start your main feature (in HDR), pause it, switch Gamma D to your Custom Gamma curve and you're all set.

Every time the JVC re-detects an HDR signal it will automatically switch to Gamma D.
So, if I setup my Lumagen Pro to indicate to the JVC not to go into HDR, but send the HDR2020 input to a SDR2020 output, select my HDR setup user memory to select the REC2020 color space, custom Gamma, etc. that should do it? Just wondered if HDR yes on the JVC just selected Gamma D and makes no other changes? Thanks. SJ
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post #23569 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 01:50 AM
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The short answer is Yes, I can say that it was well worth it. Even if my picture is more like an excellent SDR curve, it is consistent, no messing with Panny settings, SDR sliders etc. Regardless of whether its a 1000 or 4000 nit title, 0 nit black of 0.005 nit black - I just put on the same custom curve every time (Medium) and it looks incredible. I have not done extensive A/B testing. I did some a few weeks ago and I preferred the way the custom curve looked. And it is great to just put on a title and not have to think about the details or mess with any settings. I will do more A/B testing as time permits, but for now I got way to burned out from all the late night sessions (between this and the discovery of the weak autocal color calibration), and instead I am just enjoying watching movies.

Hi Ric,

I know that subjectively, the answer is yes. This is why I asked for an objective comparison, although I'm not expecting you to do it now, I totally get that you are burnt out, so was I not long ago.

As your medium curve is crushing white anyway, there is no more messing with the Panny slider, you only have to decide where you want to clip to get enough brightness using the contrast and slider control in the Panny (as they are interdependent).

The Panny deals with the black level conversion, I never had a problem with that, and the Integral gives the DI back with SDR BT2020. Once you've decided where you wanted to clip, I never changed the settings per title, and I don't think anyone ever did, that was one of the benefits of SDR BT2020 at the time.

So effectively, you simply have to adjust two parameters to find the same brightness/clipping compromise that it took you more than 100 hours to find with the Linker and the custom curves. I thought you had it set up correctly already, as you were using the Integral+Panny combo already, but if you hadn't it would take you about 10 minutes to do so. I used contrast at -1 and the slider at -4 or -5 to clip around 2500nits, Javs preferred to leave the slider at zero and adjust the contrast control to set the clipping point. I think I had brightness in the Panny set to 0, and I had the brightness in the JVC set to +2, but you could do the opposite and set brightness in the player, leaving it at 0 on the JVC (I think that's the way Javs used to do it). That's very simple to do.

When you have the energy, I would find interesting to know how, objectively, the 10mn + 0$ investment compares to the 100 hours + $199 investment. It's not for me, obviously, it's for other users who might already have a Panny and an Integral (like most of us did before the recent gamma breakthrough) who have less than 100nits of peak brightness and might wonder whether it's worth it to switch, given they have already all the equipment and have less brightness than needed to make the most of HDR. Thanks to your work, they wouldn't have to spend nearly as much time finding a decent compromise, but there is still the investment in the Linker which is necessary to get rid of Gamma D and to get the DI back.

If you had found a curve that didn't clip, it would be different but as the curve you use does clip around 4000nits, I wonder what's to be gained. Does it clip less for the same picture brightness? Is the picture brighter for the same amount of clipping? Is the picture more saturated for less clipping? I just don't understand how the custom curve is objectively "better", and not only subjectively satisfying because you spent all this time looking for it and are happy to find one. As you have the same peak brightness (less than 50nits) to play with in SDR and HDR, and are clipping content in both, I wonder where's the benefit in the PQ (there is no objective benefit in getting the DI back, not having to adjust per title for black levels or clipping point etc as these are benefits of SDR BT2020 already with the Panny and Integral combo).

Again, it's not urgent, and it's not for me but for other users, so as far as I'm concerned no problem if you only answer this much later, or even if you don't answer it at all.
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post #23570 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 02:16 AM
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Hi Ric,

I know that subjectively, the answer is yes. This is why I asked for an objective comparison, although I'm not expecting you to do it now, I totally get that you are burnt out, so was I not long ago.

As your medium curve is crushing white anyway, there is no more messing with the Panny slider, you only have to decide where you want to clip to get enough brightness using the contrast and slider control in the Panny (as they are interdependent).

The Panny deals with the black level conversion, I never had a problem with that, and the Integral gives the DI back with SDR BT2020. Once you've decided where you wanted to clip, I never changed the settings per title, and I don't think anyone ever did, that was one of the benefits of SDR BT2020 at the time.

So effectively, you simply have to adjust two parameters to find the same brightness/clipping compromise that it took you more than 100 hours to find with the Linker and the custom curves. I thought you had it set up correctly already, as you were using the Integral+Panny combo already, but if you hadn't it would take you about 10 minutes to do so. I used contrast at -1 and the slider at -4 or -5 to clip around 2500nits, Javs preferred to leave the slider at zero and adjust the contrast control to set the clipping point. I think I had brightness in the Panny set to 0, and I had the brightness in the JVC set to +2, but you could do the opposite and set brightness in the player, leaving it at 0 on the JVC (I think that's the way Javs used to do it). That's very simple to do.

When you have the energy, I would find interesting to know how, objectively, the 10mn + 0$ investment compares to the 100 hours + $199 investment. It's not for me, obviously, it's for other users who might already have a Panny and an Integral (like most of us did before the recent gamma breakthrough) who have less than 100nits of peak brightness and might wonder whether it's worth it to switch, given they have already all the equipment and have less brightness than needed to make the most of HDR. Thanks to your work, they wouldn't have to spend nearly as much time finding a decent compromise, but there is still the investment in the Linker which is necessary to get rid of Gamma D and to get the DI back.

If you had found a curve that didn't clip, it would be different but as the curve you use does clip around 4000nits, I wonder what's to be gained. Does it clip less for the same picture brightness? Is the picture brighter for the same amount of clipping? Is the picture more saturated for less clipping? I just don't understand how the custom curve is objectively "better", and not only subjectively satisfying because you spent all this time looking for it and are happy to find one. As you have the same peak brightness (less than 50nits) to play with in SDR and HDR, and are clipping content in both, I wonder where's the benefit in the PQ (there is no objective benefit in getting the DI back, not having to adjust per title for black levels or clipping point etc as these are benefits of SDR BT2020 already with the Panny and Integral combo).

Again, it's not urgent, and it's not for me but for other users, so as far as I'm concerned no problem if you only answer this much later, or even if you don't answer it at all.
Hey Manni,

When I was doing my quick pictorial analasis of the Arve curves a while back (I am still using the 650 Curve and love it - so much so, I havent been fussed as of yet to try the little bit extra all you guys have managed with the tool) I had set SDR to wide open to match at least the peak white of the HDR that I was comparing.

I have to say that the 1300 nit clipped SDR was very bright, but clearly lose a crap ton of highlight fineese to the image, and when compared directly with HDR, well, the image became more contrasty and punchy, definitely HDR looked better with the curves.

BUT, the 4000 nit SDR title, which I used the contrast slider only in the Panny to clip to 4000 nits was very close to the HDR image curves but with a couple of natable differences, the majority of the midtones were matching HDR, but the SDR highlights were totally muted it seemed, odd since the peak white points would have been fundamentally the same, but it was the distance between say 200 nits ant 4000 nits which just looked a bit muted, and this can be seen in the below images.

If there is something specific you want me to try out Manni, set for a certain peak white, using certain curves, I would be more than happy to spending an hour having a look and even taking a couple more snaps, if it helps...

But yeah, my take, since I actually did brightness match SDR with HDR for about 80 nits was, HDR just looked more 'correct' when they were both matched in peak white clipping points. No doubt about it. You do need to quite quickly A/B them, or better yet take some images to see/remember how the highlights look different but they definitely do, and not in favour of SDR WCG.

Going down to -10 for SDR WCG clipping back at 1100 nits again, well its nice, but with those stress test shots in 4k nit films you just lose too much, but for 1000 nit films, its still nice, I don't mind it, but have to say, I don't miss it either since getting the DI back and a completely natural HDR image now. I also dont see the ANSI increase in wide open being much of a muchness when you can hit >100k:1 intra-scene with lower APL films, I think that's a far more obvious advantage over what is it, 30:1 ANSI increase on a good day going from -10 to -0? Wish I could have my cake and eat it too. I do relish in normal HD Bluray viewing actually, I like both. I am sure Planet Earth would be far less of an event in SDR in HD thats for sure, thats why I held out, but older films and such, I certainly dont sit there wishing they were HDR. MadVR does such a good job that for me its all still 99% SDR HD.

I should give LDVD's Medium curve a go, sounds like everybody likes it. I do feel like despite clipping for 4000 nits in my curve, I would like just a tiny bit more finesse on the edge of that clipping point, I do feel like it last few levels of gradient are just a bit too close together hence almost giving the illusion of clipping earlier.

I know you have seen these, but check out the 4000 nit comparisons again, those are set for approx 80 nits clipping and brightness matched, you will also see were 4000 nit SDR falls apart, its not in average brightness its actually the highlight info being a bit muted and losing a lot of that punch you get with HDR of the same exact peak white.



SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ST2084 4000 Nits

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203254

SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 700 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203255

SDR WCG 1300 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 600 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203256




SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ST2084 4000 Nits

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203257

SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 700 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203258

SDR WCG 1300 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 600 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203260




SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ST2084 4000 Nits

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203261

SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 700 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203262

SDR WCG 1300 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 600 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203263




SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ST2084 4000 Nits

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203264

SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 700 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203265

SDR WCG 1300 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 600 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203266




SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ST2084 4000 Nits

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203267

SDR WCG 4000 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 700 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203268

SDR WCG 1300 Nits Vs HDR ARVE 600 Curve

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/203269

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Hey Manni,

When I was doing my quick pictorial analasis of the Arve curves a while back (I am still using the 650 Curve and love it - so much so, I havent been fussed as of yet to try the little bit extra all you guys have managed with the tool) I had set SDR to wide open to match at least the peak white of the HDR that I was comparing.

I have to say that the 1300 nit clipped SDR was very bright, but clearly lose a crap ton of highlight fineese to the image, and when compared directly with HDR, well, the image became more contrasty and punchy, definitely HDR looked better with the curves.

BUT, the 4000 nit SDR title, which I used the contrast slider only in the Panny to clip to 4000 nits was very close to the HDR image curves but with a couple of natable differences, the majority of the midtones were matching HDR, but the SDR highlights were totally muted it seemed, odd since the peak white points would have been fundamentally the same, but it was the distance between say 200 nits ant 4000 nits which just looked a bit muted, and this can be seen in the below images.

If there is something specific you want me to try out Manni, set for a certain peak white, using certain curves, I would be more than happy to spending an hour having a look and even taking a couple more snaps, if it helps...

But yeah, my take, since I actually did brightness match SDR with HDR for about 80 nits was, HDR just looked more 'correct' when they were both matched in peak white clipping points. No doubt about it. You do need to quite quickly A/B them, or better yet take some images to see/remember how the highlights look different but they definitely do, and not in favour of SDR WCG.

Going down to -10 for SDR WCG clipping back at 1100 nits again, well its nice, but with those stress test shots in 4k nit films you just lose too much, but for 1000 nit films, its still nice, I don't mind it, but have to say, I don't miss it either since getting the DI back and a completely natural HDR image now. I also dont see the ANSI increase in wide open being much of a muchness when you can hit >100k:1 intra-scene with lower APL films, I think that's a far more obvious advantage over what is it, 30:1 ANSI increase on a good day going from -10 to -0? Wish I could have my cake and eat it too. I do relish in normal HD Bluray viewing actually, I like both. I am sure Planet Earth would be far less of an event in SDR in HD thats for sure, thats why I held out, but older films and such, I certainly dont sit there wishing they were HDR. MadVR does such a good job that for me its all still 99% SDR HD.

I should give LDVD's Medium curve a go, sounds like everybody likes it. I do feel like despite clipping for 4000 nits in my curve, I would like just a tiny bit more finesse on the edge of that clipping point, I do feel like it last few levels of gradient are just a bit too close together hence almost giving the illusion of clipping earlier.

I know you have seen these, but check out the 4000 nit comparisons again, those are set for approx 80 nits clipping and brightness matched, you will also see were 4000 nit SDR falls apart, its not in average brightness its actually the highlight info being a bit muted and losing a lot of that punch you get with HDR of the same exact peak white.
Hi Javs,

Thanks for this. I've advised to use the actual peak brightness for SDR BT2020 up to 100nits for a while, so you did what was expected. I'm not surprised by your results, but you have twice as much peak brightness as Ric, so you do have much more room for highlights than he does.

Also, Ric is clipping around 2500nits (as I remember), so he's losing highlights detail in 4000nits titles too, which you aren't with a 650 curve.

The reason why you lost detail above 200nits in SDR BT2020 might be because you use only contrast in the Panny to set the clipping point. As you might remember, that's not what I recommend. I use the SDR slider too, down to -4 or -5, and constrast at -1 in the Panny. I know that I'm clipping around 2000nits, but I definitely have all the details below. For example, in a 1000nits title such as Deadpool, there is no loss of detail in the highlights at all. I know that below that it changes gamma significantly, but until -5 I find it helps getting better highlights.

Of course, with 4000nits titles that go up to 4000nits such as Madmax or BvS, there is a loss of details, but not as much as what you describe.

So yes, when you have some time, it would help if you could try to set SDR BT2020 properly, with contrast at -1 in the Panny and SDR at -4 or -5 (that gives me 1200-2000nits clipping). I might have the contrast slider at -1 in the JVC as well, can't remember.

Still, you have a lot more headroom for highlights. With a 650 curve, you can have reference white at around 16nits in HDR, like most of us do, while Ric has to lower it to under 10nits or so, and he's still clipping at 2500nits, so still losing details on 4000nits titles with content going up to 4000nits.

As people are getting closer to 100nits peak brightness, no doubt it makes sense to use a custom curve and get the linker. Anything above 50nits has potential for some improvement, but as up to 100nits you can simply set peakY to your actual PeakY in SDR BT2020 and enjoy, I find the benefit becomes stronger as you get close to 100nits, and above of course, as you can keep reference white at the same level (around 16nits) and have more headroom for highlights.

My question was specifically for Ric, who with a 42nits peak brightness doesn't have enough brightness for SDR arguably. This is the reason why I was asking him where the PQ improvement objectively lie in his HDR curve vs SDR BT2020. With 80nits peakY, you're close enough to 100nits to get a lot more benefits, and in any case you are at least above 50nits, which is what we need for SDR. If you do any testing, please set your peakY to 42nits, otherwise I already agree with you, with 80nits I would use HDR with a custom curve and a Linker too.

By the way, I'm not saying that there are no objective PQ benefits in Ric's case, I'm only asking what they are because I can't understand why or how he could reach a significantly better picture with such a low peak brightness.

Also, in SDR I would always privilege on/off over ANSI especially for low APL titles, but in HDR I find that 30-35% better ANSI makes a huge difference, that's why I prefer to use the iris fully open in HDR, especially now that we've solved the black floor issue.
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Last edited by Manni01; 04-03-2017 at 08:27 AM. Reason: typo
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post #23572 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 07:08 AM
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So, Chad did it eh. Well, then, you are obviously in good hands. Am curious, what are your thoughts regarding the differences you see between a Chad calibrated Gamma D and a Chad custom curve? How was the curve created; Arve's tool or Calman?
I haven't done much A/B with D vs his Custom but I was very impressed with Custom Curve. I didn't feel the need to switch.

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Do you happen to know if Chad makes calibration trips to West Coast/Southern Cal, etc.? Thanks.
No Idea. Sorry. You can contact him off his site.
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post #23573 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 08:44 AM
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So, if I setup my Lumagen Pro to indicate to the JVC not to go into HDR, but send the HDR2020 input to a SDR2020 output, select my HDR setup user memory to select the REC2020 color space, custom Gamma, etc. that should do it? Just wondered if HDR yes on the JVC just selected Gamma D and makes no other changes? Thanks. SJ
Yes, that's how mine is set up too (HDR off on the Lumagen Pro output, but On for input) and it works great. The JVC will not report HDR, but should show Deep Color greyed out, to indicate you are receiving 12-bits.
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post #23574 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 08:51 AM
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So, if I setup my Lumagen Pro to indicate to the JVC not to go into HDR, but send the HDR2020 input to a SDR2020 output, select my HDR setup user memory to select the REC2020 color space, custom Gamma, etc. that should do it? Just wondered if HDR yes on the JVC just selected Gamma D and makes no other changes? Thanks. SJ
I don't own the Lumagen Pro so i'm not sure how the interface works -- but the procedure you describe looks to be correct.

If the JVC detects HDR, you are correct in that the JVC will auto switch to Gamma D and therefore your Lumagen is not set correctly.
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Yes, that's how mine is set up too (HDR off on the Lumagen Pro output, but On for input) and it works great. The JVC will not report HDR, but should show Deep Color greyed out, to indicate you are receiving 12-bits.
Thanks. I will try that out. Also, does Deep Color "greyed out" mean 12 bit for 4K60 or 4K24 signals to the JVC? They both can be greyed out. The manual just stated it is receiving 4:2:2. Maybe that means 12 bit, but wanted to check. SJ
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post #23576 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 09:18 AM
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Do you happen to know if Chad makes calibration trips to West Coast/Southern Cal, etc.? Thanks.
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He did last year and I missed him. He told me maybe later this year.....
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No Idea. Sorry. You can contact him off his site.
On Chad's web site there is place to "contact us". All you west coast folks interested in his services should do as I did, send a note to him, and his scheduler will make a list of interested people.

When they reach a critical mass (not sure what that number is) the scheduler will reach out to confirm you are serious and start scheduling appointments.

But it's that first piece that is critical -- essentially registering your interest with his scheduler via the ChadB site. He was out this way in early 2016. Hopefully enough of us are interested that we can drum up enough volume that a 2017 visit takes place.

Go here, now, and do your good deed: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/contact.html
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post #23577 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Thanks. I will try that out. Also, does Deep Color "greyed out" mean 12 bit for 4K60 or 4K24 signals to the JVC? They both can be greyed out. The manual just stated it is receiving 4:2:2. Maybe that means 12 bit, but wanted to check. SJ
Yes, 4:2:2 is always 12 bit, hence the greyed out. I use the Radiance Pro as well, works perfect every time.
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post #23578 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 11:43 AM
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Yes, 4:2:2 is always 12 bit, hence the greyed out. I use the Radiance Pro as well, works perfect every time.
The Oppo allows one to choose 8, 10, or 12 bit for 4K24 4:2:2. The Oppo Info screen shows that it is outputting whichever bit rate is chosen. The JVC shows the same blank greyed screen for whichever bit rate is chosen. If the illegal format 4K60 4:4:4 12 bit is chosen in the Oppo the Oppo Info screen shows 4K60 4:4:4 8 bit, as does the JVC screen, so the Oppo does not just blindly show what is chosen.

There was some discussion earlier in this and other threads that the Oppo is indeed sending out 8, 10, and 12 bit. This was also confirmed in two different emails from Oppo to me. At one time 4K24 4:2:2 12 bit was the only legal 4K24 4:2:2 format that could be sent, hence JVC used the blank greyed screen to denote any incoming 4K24 4:2:2 data. Apparently the HDMI specs do not prevent 8 and 10 bit but have not written video identification codes to allow the info display of these formats.

Unfortunately I have not found anyone who 100% confirms the 8 and 10 bit 4:2:2 formats. One would need a more sophisticated device than the JVC to actually display the bit depths.

Does the Lumagen offer any information as to whether or not 8 or 10 bit are actually being sent out?
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post #23579 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 12:02 PM
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Between starting the disc in your player, getting through the production intros, then disc menu, then play the movie -- the JVC will auto flip to Gamma D 2 or 3 times... Wait until after you hit play from the disc menu and once you start hearing production intro music/sound you need to pause the movie -- switch off Gamma D and onto your Custom Gamma curve. Then watch the movie.

The linker allows you hide/mask the HDR metadata info while retaining the HDR data signal. This way, the JVC doesn't autoswitch to Gamma D and you gain access to the DI which is normally disabled when JVC is in HDR mode.

I finally spent the weekend getting the Linker installed (special shout out to CJ for all his great testing and posts where I compiled a nice list Friday night of "Do's & Don't's"), and after some driver version hassles I got the FW updated to 0.19a and installed on the output of my Denon's HDMI-1 using the Fury 4K cable into the Linker then out using a 30ft "High Speed" 22AWG Silver Monoprice (not "4K certified" per sea but been using this all year NO problems; even when watching FULL 4K uTube videos and the latest 4K/60p UHD movie Bill Lynn so I know the cable's bandwidth is SOLID), while running the HDMI-2 on the Denon straight to the JVC Input 2 for 3D (worked great but sometimes had to turn OFF the Denon to force an EDID renegotiation on the current input (hot switching between JVC inputs seems to be a bit wonky). Those with dual HDMI outputs may want to consider this setup to increase response times and added flexibility.

Once I got a picture using EDID=8 I previewed the last Harry Potter which has almost as good spectral highlighting as the new Ghostbusters (check out the wizard battle at ~40:00min marker (WOW!). The reengagement of the DI on the JVC using the custom Arve gamma looked Frickin' fantastic (I just could not believe how deep and rich the low APL areas became [not crushed tho] and even to my eyes increased CR so well the spectral highlights just exploded off the screen!), and in the end WELL worth the hassle the Linker induces with syncing!

BTW - for those w/ an Oppo/Linker config Ken @HDfury said the new 0.20 FW will be released some time today!


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post #23580 of 31985 Old 04-03-2017, 12:18 PM
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Does the Lumagen offer any information as to whether or not 8 or 10 bit are actually being sent out?
I've not seen it confirmed from Lumagen, @jrp ?, but on the third debug menu (hit OK 3 times) there is "BP:XX" and on HDR that has been BP:12 and I've been assuming BP is Bits Precision (or Bits per Pixel).

Last edited by dlinsley; 04-03-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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