Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 850 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25471 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Agree, BUT, in many of the large sceeen setups, things can get pretty dim sometimes, and that's not necessarily correct either...

I've watched many people go with the biggest screen their room will fit not realizing there is a point where the pj will have a hard time keeping up...
But the larger the screen, it seems like you need less brightness compared to a small flat panel.

For example, I don't like more than 14-15 ftL on my 9 foot wide scope screen. My room is very dark and I just don't like that bright of an image (I know others differ). I am fine with 30ftL on my 51" plasma from 8 feet back in my living room at night and lights off. No way I could ever consider 30ftL on my projection screen - with sunglasses sure.
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post #25472 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
But the larger the screen, it seems like you need less brightness compared to a small flat panel.

For example, I don't like more than 14-15 ftL on my 9 foot wide scope screen. My room is very dark and I just don't like that bright of an image (I know others differ). I am fine with 30ftL on my 51" plasma from 8 feet back in my living room at night and lights off. No way I could ever consider 30ftL on my projection screen - with sunglasses sure.
I guess that's how we differ...I wish I could have all the brightness I want on my 120" screen without having to clip the highlights...
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post #25473 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I guess that's how we differ...I wish I could have all the brightness I want on my 120" screen without having to clip the highlights...
Same.

Do what I did and start saving for that 4K Laser light-canon that will replace your 600 in a few years.
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post #25474 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Same.

Do what I did and start saving for that 4K Laser light-canon that will replace your 600 in a few years.
I'm continuing to test...I "suspect" I will return the tv BUT I can tell you the pj does create issues on my 120" screen 1.0 gain...Ie. the lapels in the opening scene of Lucy, good and defined, with my blacks and contrast set correctly on the tv...the opening scene of the Martian where the camera is panning across the rock face, nice and well defined on tv, darker on pj...I suspect I could fix all of the pj issues by shrinking screen size and increasing screen gain
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post #25475 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I'm continuing to test...I "suspect" I will return the tv BUT I can tell you the pj does create issues on my 120" screen 1.0 gain...Ie. the lapels in the opening scene of Lucy, good and defined, with my blacks and contrast set correctly on the tv...the opening scene of the Martian where the camera is panning across the rock face, nice and well defined on tv, darker on pj...I suspect I could fix all of the pj issues by shrinking screen size and increasing screen gain
You have a UB900 and a Linker -- Have you tried SDR2020 with your 120" setup and how it compares to 120" HDR and new TV HDR?

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post #25476 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
You have a UB900 and a Linker -- Have you tried SDR2020 with your 120" setup and how it compares to 120" HDR and new TV HDR?
I did the pj sdr to pj hdr somewhere waaaaay back but I think that was before the Arve curve came along and may have only been comparing sdr against gamma d...

I think if I was going to any more testing it would be to shrink my pj screen size for hdr and then compare brightness levels to tv hdr

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post #25477 of 31985 Old 07-18-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I did the pj sdr to pj hdr somewhere waaaaay back but I think that was before the Arve curve came along and may have only been comparing sdr against gamma d...

I think if I was going to any more testing it would be to shrink my pj screen size for hdr and then compare brightness levels to tv hdr
Of all the things I've considered, shrinking the screen size is not one of them.

Higher gain AT screen? Maybe.
Move PJ closer to screen? Maybe.
JVC/Sony 4K Laser? Maybe.

I'm going to be 40 next year and I don't know if my eyes can truly appreciate the benefits of HDR.

All I know is that UB900 keeps dropping in price and the Dynamic Range slider is something I want to toy with and at worst SDR2020 will probably keep me and wifey happy for years to come. We're dorks and are more impressed with 3D than UHD at the moment.

I didn't think Rogue One would benefit from 3D, but WRONG AGAIN. Star Wars space fights in 3D never looked better!

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post #25478 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 01:12 AM
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I picked up the Kong: Skull Island 4K/3D steelbook yesterday. After watching the movie in 3D, I tried zooming all the way on my screen when I was playing around with the 4K disc. The smallest image I could make was 79" 16x9 diagonal. I realized a few things:

1) Going from a 10.5' to a 5.5' wide image is A LOT smaller.
2) It makes a difference, but NOT enough to warrant the trade off in size.
3) You REALLY notice the lens light leak. Big time.
4) I definitely, absolutely, unequivocally prefer 3D. At 136" 2.35:1, 3D easily provides the biggest impact.

On another note: Is the HDR slider on the UB900 really all that different from using a brighter custom gamma curve?
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post #25479 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
completely forgot this was arriving today. nice heavy steel book with the UHD and 3D versions.

I just got done the 3D version and thought it was excellent. UHD version later tonight


anyone else see this yet?

I tried ordering it last night Jason but I guess I'm SOL cause BestBuy shows out of stock (both store or ship)!

I have the Amazon version sitting here on my desk (non 3D/Steelbook), but would rather wait for this 3D/4K BB version (dang it!).

We did watch 5th Element and thought the increase in PQ was very slight; went back and watched the last 20min on BD to test (at times my Denon 7200 4K up conversion quality looked just as good!). Still... the steelbook cover is a cool one to have.
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Last edited by krichter1; 07-19-2017 at 08:34 AM.
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post #25480 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I bet you would have liked the 2.8 HP screen. picture this @ 11 feet wide. 3D is nice and bright through the glasses and can run most HDR content in low lamp and it's still quite bright.

that's a neutral gain screen in the background.
After all these years of you showing this difference pic, it still never ceases to blow me away what a HUGE diff this makes! I would love to come see it some day!
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post #25481 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
I tried ordering it last night Jason but I guess I'm SOL cause BestBuy shows out of stock (both store or ship)!

I have the Amazon version sitting here on my desk (non 3D/Steelbook), but would rather wait for this 3D/4K BB version (dang it!).

We did watch 5th Element and thought the increase in PQ was very slight; went back and watched the last 20min on BD to test (at times my Denon 7200 4K up conversion quality looked just as good!). Still... the steelbook cover is a cool one to have.

wow I didn't realize how popular these steel books are, especially this on since it had the UHD/2D/3D all in the 1 package. There's a number of them on ebay but looks like asking price is $42-$50

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kong-Skull-I...-/152628970308


the 3D BD didn't have the ATMOS track so I remuxed the 2D / 3D BD together and it worked perfect!

definitely enjoyed the 3D version over the UHD HDR, they put good effort into the camera work that plays into the 3D.



snakes on a plane and now a huge ape on the island..



don't miss the ending scene after the credits.. King Kong and Godzilla will meet again!
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post #25482 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 05:17 PM
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Dear owners, anyone on the X7000 looking to upgrade to the X7500? Heard that the X7000 takes up to 20 seconds to handshake with HDMI, where the X7500 is faster? Also are there any material picture quality differences between the two? I can either wait for the X7000 to be discounted, or go for an X7500.
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post #25483 of 31985 Old 07-19-2017, 06:34 PM
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I don’t currently own a JVC (maybe someday!) but do own a projector. I’ve read through this forum about the development of custom gamma curves for HDR.

I’m wondering if it’s possible to generalize the curves for other HDR projectors. I understand that Arve’s tool is designed to work with the JVC projectors, so I am not asking if the tool works for other projectors. My question is different – assuming that the curves are targeting the ST 2084 standard and have fine-tuned the best multiples / roll-offs / clip point targets for HDR content, then could the learnings and approach be applied to other projectors?

For example, if the curves were to specify the target nits at each level of an 11 point grey scale, gamma curves could potentially be manually set. The HCFR calibration software identifies the target nits across the grey scale in this way, but they are the absolute targets (e.g, 10K nits at peak white). If I knew what the correct adjusted target nits were across the 11 point grey scale, I could manually calibrate my projector using a custom gamma curve. I just don’t know how to scale the targets and set the roll offs etc.

I can give the specifics of my set-up as needed, but it’s more of a general question at this stage.

Any input would be appreciated.
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post #25484 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 04:57 AM
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Not to discount any of the great work Arve or Manni have done, but there's really nothing "special" about what they've done in relation to JVC (well Arve's work is definitely specific to JVC). If you go back, it all started with Manni doing calibrations vs the HDR10 workflow in Calman, but using a multiplier to make the measurements meaningful. That workflow applies to any projector with multipoint gamma calibration capabilities, assuming the controls have enough range. Dave Harper essentially did the same thing on the Epson LS10000.

Arve's tool though, is really only useful for JVC, because it's built specifically for the JVC autocal interface.

Back to general HDR calibration, it's not that different from SDR calibration, provided you have a calibration suite with an HDR workflow. Basically you just calibrate grayscale like normal, but you have to know/accept that you're going to have to deviate from the curve at the high end, and pay special attention to that when you do it.

My first HDR calibration on my RS600 was by hand with Calman, and it worked very well. It wasn't really that different from Arve's tool, which is "just" much faster and more granular.
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post #25485 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Dear owners, anyone on the X7000 looking to upgrade to the X7500? Heard that the X7000 takes up to 20 seconds to handshake with HDMI, where the X7500 is faster? Also are there any material picture quality differences between the two? I can either wait for the X7000 to be discounted, or go for an X7500.
Users report a slight improvement, i.e., less than 10% from what I have read.
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post #25486 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 703 View Post
Dear owners, anyone on the X7000 looking to upgrade to the X7500? Heard that the X7000 takes up to 20 seconds to handshake with HDMI, where the X7500 is faster? Also are there any material picture quality differences between the two? I can either wait for the X7000 to be discounted, or go for an X7500.
Almost zero difference in sync time between the two models.
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post #25487 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Not to discount any of the great work Arve or Manni have done, but there's really nothing "special" about what they've done in relation to JVC (well Arve's work is definitely specific to JVC). If you go back, it all started with Manni doing calibrations vs the HDR10 workflow in Calman, but using a multiplier to make the measurements meaningful. That workflow applies to any projector with multipoint gamma calibration capabilities, assuming the controls have enough range. Dave Harper essentially did the same thing on the Epson LS10000.

Arve's tool though, is really only useful for JVC, because it's built specifically for the JVC autocal interface.

Back to general HDR calibration, it's not that different from SDR calibration, provided you have a calibration suite with an HDR workflow. Basically you just calibrate grayscale like normal, but you have to know/accept that you're going to have to deviate from the curve at the high end, and pay special attention to that when you do it.

My first HDR calibration on my RS600 was by hand with Calman, and it worked very well. It wasn't really that different from Arve's tool, which is "just" much faster and more granular.
I appreciate your response and it makes sense. But unfortunately, it doesn't progress me toward my goal. I've read various forums for hours looking for more specifics (and am very familiar with Dave's approach that runs the HDR signal through SDR). I get everything you've said and have actually already gotten to a decent initial calibration.

I am using HCFR that does not have any workflows. So my question is much more specific - you say that you did a manual calibration for a projector with HDR. Great. Can you share the specific targets you were aiming for across the grey scale? For example, HCFR suggests the following targets for ST 2084

100% - 10,000 (nits)
90% - 3889
80% - 1542
70% - 613
60% - 240
50% - 94
40% - 33
30% - 10
20% - 2.45
10% - 0.328
0% - 0

So now I have the absolute curve. How do I translate it to a curve I can use to create a custom gamma curve? Do I just re-scale the entire curve using a constant multiplier? Any sort of general response is likely something I've already read 2-3 times. Again, any specifics around this would be much appreciated. I felt like this forum would be a good place to hunt because so much time and effort has been put into trying to get a good HDR calibration using a projector.
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post #25488 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
I appreciate your response and it makes sense. But unfortunately, it doesn't progress me toward my goal. I've read various forums for hours looking for more specifics (and am very familiar with Dave's approach that runs the HDR signal through SDR). I get everything you've said and have actually already gotten to a decent initial calibration.

I am using HCFR that does not have any workflows. So my question is much more specific - you say that you did a manual calibration for a projector with HDR. Great. Can you share the specific targets you were aiming for across the grey scale? For example, HCFR suggests the following targets for ST 2084

100% - 10,000 (nits)
90% - 3889
80% - 1542
70% - 613
60% - 240
50% - 94
40% - 33
30% - 10
20% - 2.45
10% - 0.328
0% - 0

So now I have the absolute curve. How do I translate it to a curve I can use to create a custom gamma curve? Do I just re-scale the entire curve using a constant multiplier? Any sort of general response is likely something I've already read 2-3 times. Again, any specifics around this would be much appreciated. I felt like this forum would be a good place to hunt because so much time and effort has been put into trying to get a good HDR calibration using a projector.

The answer you seek is purely in the PJ's ability to "Import" custom gammas like JVC allows thru their custom written "Auto Cal" software . If it doesn't you are basically SOL unless you know a PRO calibrator for your PJ who can mimic what is being done in these custom gammas for HDR (the knowledge is in it's infancy and so too is its general knowledge in the calibrator world). You could ping @Chad B to see if he has knowledge of your PJ (he knows well the minutia of these custom gammas on the JVC so he may be able to translate those curves to another PJ).

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post #25489 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 07:58 AM
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I thought Manni posted a screenshot from Calman, that should have had targets in it, but I can't find it now, and I don't have my numbers anymore.

What I can say is, we've found a multiplier of 6-8 seems to work well, depending on your peak white. Lower multipliers are brighter. In Calman we can enter the multiplier directly into the screen "profile" (I forget what it's actually called. If HCFR can't do that, here's what I'd do:

  • Measure 100% white, this will be your peak white value and your target for anything over 4000 nits (looks like anything over 90% per your numbers) I've found the difference in calibrating with a lower clipping point for 1100 nit titles insignificant.
  • Divide those targets by 6-8, for the targets up to about 50-60%, this will give you a reasonable match between what the software "expects" and what you actually measure
  • For the stuff between 60 and 90%, try to make a smooth curve in that area, you're going to have to play around a bit with the targets and figure out what looks best to you as far as retaining brightness vs leaving some contrast/saturation in the highlights.
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post #25491 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 09:59 AM
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grab it now before it's sold out like the KSI combo pack

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/guardian...?skuId=5904801
Done
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Done


Double Done!!
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post #25493 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 10:42 AM
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Glad to see Disney finally rolling out the UHD's
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post #25494 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 12:10 PM
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Glad to see Disney finally rolling out the UHD's
It's about time !
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post #25495 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I thought Manni posted a screenshot from Calman, that should have had targets in it, but I can't find it now, and I don't have my numbers anymore.

What I can say is, we've found a multiplier of 6-8 seems to work well, depending on your peak white. Lower multipliers are brighter. In Calman we can enter the multiplier directly into the screen "profile" (I forget what it's actually called. If HCFR can't do that, here's what I'd do:

  • Measure 100% white, this will be your peak white value and your target for anything over 4000 nits (looks like anything over 90% per your numbers) I've found the difference in calibrating with a lower clipping point for 1100 nit titles insignificant.
  • Divide those targets by 6-8, for the targets up to about 50-60%, this will give you a reasonable match between what the software "expects" and what you actually measure
  • For the stuff between 60 and 90%, try to make a smooth curve in that area, you're going to have to play around a bit with the targets and figure out what looks best to you as far as retaining brightness vs leaving some contrast/saturation in the highlights.
Very helpful. Thank you. This is the kind of insight I figured you might have based on working with these curves. Some of the software allows for multipliers, but it is up to the user to know what to enter into the open box. This at least gives my some tangible guidance as a starting point. If anyone else has a post calibration report that shows the actual nits across the grey scale that your curve generates, that would also be interesting to see.
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post #25496 of 31985 Old 07-20-2017, 05:35 PM
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when using Ray's white clipping pattern to set end slope in Arve's tool "se", do you want the 4000 bar to be barely blinking or not showing at all?
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post #25497 of 31985 Old 07-21-2017, 04:39 AM
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I'd treat 4000 nits like 100% white, ie not flashing/visible.
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post #25498 of 31985 Old 07-21-2017, 06:28 AM
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Quick question: On these projectors, if I'm watching an HD Blu-ray and it calls for 100% white, is the output the same color and brightness as 4K HDR 100% white?

Same question for all other colors.
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post #25499 of 31985 Old 07-21-2017, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Quick question: On these projectors, if I'm watching an HD Blu-ray and it calls for 100% white, is the output the same color and brightness as 4K HDR 100% white?

Same question for all other colors.
I'm oversimplifying and some grades don't follow this method, but directionally that answer is:

No, 100% white for a blu-ray should be about 50nits, i.e. 14ftl, for front projection.

100% white for UHD blu-ray should be as high as possible on our projectors, most targeting at least 100nits where possible (though people have created curves for lower peak output capabilities).

Typically, an object that is 100% white in a SD grade is going to be 50 nits, and the same object, if it doesn't have spectral highlights, is still going to be about 50 nits in UHD -- but that means it is NOT 100% white in UHD. That extra headroom in UHD reproduction is then used for spectral highlights.
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post #25500 of 31985 Old 07-21-2017, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I'm oversimplifying and some grades don't follow this method, but directionally that answer is:

No, 100% white for a blu-ray should be about 50nits, i.e. 14ftl, for front projection.

100% white for UHD blu-ray should be as high as possible on our projectors, most targeting at least 100nits where possible (though people have created curves for lower peak output capabilities).

Typically, an object that is 100% white in a SD grade is going to be 50 nits, and the same object, if it doesn't have spectral highlights, is still going to be about 50 nits in UHD -- but that means it is NOT 100% white in UHD. That extra headroom in UHD reproduction is then used for spectral highlights.
I know if I watch an HD Blu-ray in low lamp at -14 iris, 100% white will be darker than 100% white with HDR in high lamp at 0 iris....but calibration aside, with the same lamp and iris settings, is 100% of xyz color going to be the same brightness between BD & UHD/HDR?
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