Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 947 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28381 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
What exactly is it that the Oppo does to the video stream to produce an SDR image from an HDR one?


In a wide colour gamut HDR video stream, the chroma values are the chroma values as defined by the colour space and the luma levels are the luma levels defined over the dynamic range - so does the oppo apply it's own EOTF internally to flatten out the transfer function or does it just apply some other manipulation of black/white level and chroma conversion?
My understanding is that the player is applying its own tone mapped curve, similar to what people have been doing by creating “custom HDR curves” in their projectors using calibration software. The player’s new curve is more appropriate for displays with limited brightness (projectors) and is complimentary to a traditional 2.4 power curve one would have set in their projector.

The custom curves people have been creating for HDR in their projectors simply handle his better with more options to fine tune. Apparently, the tone mapping options in the lumagen radiance pro are even better still, as well as using the MadVR rendering software with an HTPC. Oppo is supposed to to be working on an improved version of their internal tone mapping that may be in this ballpark as well.

But basically these are all ways of taking the original HDR signal that is mastered for displays cabable of 1000 nits (for example) and applying a tone mapped curve that is more appropriate for a 100 nit display (for example).
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post #28382 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Maybe I was mistaken. In the context of the JVC projectors, what you said is probably true. However, I think there are also people who actually convert from HDR ST.2084 to a power law gamma (e.g., 2.4) while keeping the wide gamut, and also use the term "SDR BT2020".
Wow, I thought I was confused before...

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post #28383 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
My understanding is that the player is applying its own tone mapped curve, similar to what people have been doing by creating “custom HDR curves” in their projectors using calibration software. The player’s new curve is more appropriate for displays with limited brightness (projectors) and is complimentary to a traditional 2.4 power curve one would have set in their projector.

The custom curves people have been creating for HDR in their projectors simply handle his better with more options to fine tune. Apparently, the tone mapping options in the lumagen radiance pro are even better still, as well as using the MadVR rendering software with an HTPC. Oppo is supposed to to be working on an improved version of their internal tone mapping that may be in this ballpark as well.

But basically these are all ways of taking the original HDR signal that is mastered for displays cabable of 1000 nits (for example) and applying a tone mapped curve that is more appropriate for a 100 nit display (for example).
Ok, I’m a little confused as I was going down the path of a Normal gamma with sdr bt2020...what are u suggesting? All I really know now is to set my Linker to SDR BT2020. I have the Penny ub900 also...I have 85 nits to play with...what gamma do I choose? Also do I use 4K patterns to adjust contrast and brightness or rec 709 patterns?

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post #28384 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
See attached.

There is a JVC Projector device in the iRule database that's a good starting point, but you'll have to add some recent commands if you miss them.
Has anyone used iRule programmed a button for the custom gammas? I’m fairly sure I’m using the right IP hex code but it’s a no go. I posted in the iRule forum without luck. These are the hex codes that I’m using:

Gamma - Custom 1 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x34\x0A
Gamma - Custom 2 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x35\x0A
Gamma - Custom 3 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x36\x0A

I wonder if I need to run another code first?
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post #28385 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Maybe I was mistaken. In the context of the JVC projectors, what you said is probably true. However, I think there are also people who actually convert from HDR ST.2084 to a power law gamma (e.g., 2.4) while keeping the wide gamut, and also use the term "SDR BT2020".
Yes, isn’t that what the oppo and Panasonic are doing? But my personal feeling when using SDR BT2020 from the Panasonic with the dynamic range slider at -4 (some have recommended using it even lower than that) is that while nice the image just looks too dim if I’m using the same aperature I would use for Blu-ray and it takes opening up the iris to make it look right.

I wasn’t aware of people doing conversions to SDR BT 2020 in any other way (other than using the lumagen or MadVR). But for those I’m assuming that they are still trying to use as much light from their projectors as they can reasonably achieve.

@Manni01 : I know you are swamped with both real world work and your work on helping everyone enjoy his hobby so I hate to bug you, but can you clarify for the group?
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post #28386 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
My understanding is that the player is applying its own tone mapped curve, similar to what people have been doing by creating “custom HDR curves” in their projectors using calibration software. The player’s new curve is more appropriate for displays with limited brightness (projectors) and is complimentary to a traditional 2.4 power curve one would have set in their projector.

The custom curves people have been creating for HDR in their projectors simply handle his better with more options to fine tune. Apparently, the tone mapping options in the lumagen radiance pro are even better still, as well as using the MadVR rendering software with an HTPC. Oppo is supposed to to be working on an improved version of their internal tone mapping that may be in this ballpark as well.

But basically these are all ways of taking the original HDR signal that is mastered for displays cabable of 1000 nits (for example) and applying a tone mapped curve that is more appropriate for a 100 nit display (for example).

Interesting stuff.. I'd kind of hoped it'd be something like that. The reason I asked is because I have a Zappiti player and a Dune player - both do terrible HDR to SDR conversions, and while I currently use my own custom curve I created in Arve's tool, I'm also looking for other ways of doing it too..
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post #28387 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Monkey_Man View Post
Has anyone used iRule programmed a button for the custom gammas? I’m fairly sure I’m using the right IP hex code but it’s a no go. I posted in the iRule forum without luck. These are the hex codes that I’m using:

Gamma - Custom 1 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x34\x0A
Gamma - Custom 2 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x35\x0A
Gamma - Custom 3 \x21\x89\x01\x47\x54\x36\x0A

I wonder if I need to run another code first?

I use Crestron to control my pj and these are serial codes for custom gamma:

Custom 1: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x34\x0A
Custom 2: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x35\x0A
Custom 3: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x36\x0A


Mark
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post #28388 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
I use Crestron to control my pj and these are serial codes for custom gamma:

Custom 1: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x34\x0A
Custom 2: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x35\x0A
Custom 3: \x21\x89\x01\x50\x4D\x47\x54\x36\x0A


Mark
Thanks mark, I’ll give those a try!

On a humorous note, I was about to give up on HDR when I realized I wasn’t switching the gamma correction to “import”. I was like man, all these custom curves look the same and terrible. I just need Linker to get the DI back.
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post #28389 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markswift2003 View Post
Interesting stuff.. I'd kind of hoped it'd be something like that. The reason I asked is because I have a Zappiti player and a Dune player - both do terrible HDR to SDR conversions, and while I currently use my own custom curve I created in Arve's tool, I'm also looking for other ways of doing it too..
I’m a total dope when it comes to media players and HTPCs (I hope to change that one day). But if you can use MadVR, manni01 has reported he feels the “SDR BT2020” remapping using this renderer is superior to installing custom HDR curves. So that is worth looking into if it is applicable to your situation. He has said that he would post recommendations for setting that up appropriately once he has had the time to work it all out.
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post #28390 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Yes, isn’t that what the oppo and Panasonic are doing? But my personal feeling when using SDR BT2020 from the Panasonic with the dynamic range slider at -4 (some have recommended using it even lower than that) is that while nice the image just looks too dim if I’m using the same aperature I would use for Blu-ray and it takes opening up the iris to make it look right.

I wasn’t aware of people doing conversions to SDR BT 2020 in any other way (other than using the lumagen or MadVR). But for those I’m assuming that they are still trying to use as much light from their projectors as they can reasonably achieve.
The ITU Standard BT.2020 was actually defined in conjunction with SDR EOTF:
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...0-I!!PDF-E.pdf

It was only later that UHD Blu-Ray adopted the Rec.2020 colour space in conjunction with HDR ETOF.
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post #28391 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Yes, isn’t that what the oppo and Panasonic are doing? But my personal feeling when using SDR BT2020 from the Panasonic with the dynamic range slider at -4 (some have recommended using it even lower than that) is that while nice the image just looks too dim if I’m using the same aperature I would use for Blu-ray and it takes opening up the iris to make it look right.

I wasn’t aware of people doing conversions to SDR BT 2020 in any other way (other than using the lumagen or MadVR). But for those I’m assuming that they are still trying to use as much light from their projectors as they can reasonably achieve.

@Manni01 : I know you are swamped with both real world work and your work on helping everyone enjoy his hobby so I hate to bug you, but can you clarify for the group?
What gamma are u using for sdr bt2020?

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post #28392 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Use all the same settings as you use for Blu-ray sdr except invoke 2020 color.

AFAIK no changes to calibration are necessary.
Ok, using my blu Ray setttings, with colour profile set to bt2020...low lamp, iris 0, edid 10 on Linker...bit of a red push BUT definitely bright...I “think” it’s still as punchy as HDR...more viewing in progress, not sure why the red push...

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post #28393 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
My understanding is that the player is applying its own tone mapped curve, similar to what people have been doing by creating “custom HDR curves” in their projectors using calibration software. The player’s new curve is more appropriate for displays with limited brightness (projectors) and is complimentary to a traditional 2.4 power curve one would have set in their projector.

The custom curves people have been creating for HDR in their projectors simply handle his better with more options to fine tune. Apparently, the tone mapping options in the lumagen radiance pro are even better still, as well as using the MadVR rendering software with an HTPC. Oppo is supposed to to be working on an improved version of their internal tone mapping that may be in this ballpark as well.

But basically these are all ways of taking the original HDR signal that is mastered for displays cabable of 1000 nits (for example) and applying a tone mapped curve that is more appropriate for a 100 nit display (for example).
Ok, I'm going to be pickier than necessary, and I'm just picking your post because it references pretty much the whole discussion from the past page or two.

Firstly, while the end result is similar, there are some important differences between "SDR2020" and custom curves, the most important part is that with a custom curve, you are telling the projector how it should should handle native HDR, ie content coded with the ST.2084 EOTF (or an HLG curve). This means that everything mapping wise is done in the projector, and it will work for, and apply the same mapping, to any source you throw at it, whether it be UHD Blu-ray from a disc, streaming content, ripped content, etc. This curve takes into account the exact parameters of your room, plus your preferences, namely it takes into account the actual brightenss of your setup along with your desired nominal image brightness. The down side is that the curve is "dumb", in that it's a fixed curve that is applied to everything regardless of what's in the content, for example a curve configured for 4000 nits that works with everything, will be leaving brightness (for highlights mostly) on the table if the content doesn't go that high (like some titles that are well under 300 nits peak) since it's always configured for 4000 nits.

On the flip side, SDR2020 is the player mapping the HDR content "down" to an power (or maybe BT.1886) curve. The player doesn't know anything about your environment, it's a "one size fits all" mapping, perhaps with some parameters to adjust like the brightness slider in the Panasonic, or the target nit level in madVR or the Oppo. It can be harder to calibrate this method since you basically have to guess and check, and go back and forth with the various controls since they're interactive and not really. I know with the Panasonic, if you go too high on the brightness slider you start clipping highlights pretty bad, but fiddling with the other picture controls can restore them. I know that was frustrating to me. The up side of this, is these algorithms can be dynamic. For example madVR measures the brightness of every frame and will adjust it's tone mapping accordingly, and while I'm not sure if it does, it could adjust the mapping on a pixel level to retain contrast in highlights that would be reduced with a static mapping like a custom curve.

But like I said, the end result is largely similar. So that said, with the SDR2020 there are probably two ways to handle it:

Try to map it all the way down to SDR, ie 50nits/16fL (or whatever you use), but it's probably better to treat it like it's HDR, since really it still is, it's just using a different tone curve. This is what I'm doing now with madVR, basically I have the exact same calibration on my RS600 as I do for native HDR, but I have the gamma set to 2.4 instead of my IMPORTed custom curve. Remember SDR2020 isn't really converting the video to SDR, it's just mapping it from one curve to another, so really, you should be calibrating/treating it like HDR still, at least as far as brightness goes.

As for the difference, well it's not dramatic, it's more similar than not (assuming a correctly created/calibrated custom curve). However madVR (and presumably Oppo's beta tone mapping feature) can be a lot smarter than a custom curve when it comes to retaining details in highlights and shadows in particular. I believe this is what Kris was talking about regarding comparing his JVC in native HDR or via Lumagen's Intensity Mapping to his OLED.

Hopefully in a generation or two, we'll see projectors with some truly smart HDR tone mapping, and not just using some canned ST.2084 EOTF with a roll off.
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post #28394 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Ok, I'm going to be pickier than necessary, and I'm just picking your post because it references pretty much the whole discussion from the past page or two.

Firstly, while the end result is similar, there are some important differences between "SDR2020" and custom curves, the most important part is that with a custom curve, you are telling the projector how it should should handle native HDR, ie content coded with the ST.2084 EOTF (or an HLG curve). This means that everything mapping wise is done in the projector, and it will work for, and apply the same mapping, to any source you throw at it, whether it be UHD Blu-ray from a disc, streaming content, ripped content, etc. This curve takes into account the exact parameters of your room, plus your preferences, namely it takes into account the actual brightenss of your setup along with your desired nominal image brightness. The down side is that the curve is "dumb", in that it's a fixed curve that is applied to everything regardless of what's in the content, for example a curve configured for 4000 nits that works with everything, will be leaving brightness (for highlights mostly) on the table if the content doesn't go that high (like some titles that are well under 300 nits peak) since it's always configured for 4000 nits.

On the flip side, SDR2020 is the player mapping the HDR content "down" to an power (or maybe BT.1886) curve. The player doesn't know anything about your environment, it's a "one size fits all" mapping, perhaps with some parameters to adjust like the brightness slider in the Panasonic, or the target nit level in madVR or the Oppo. It can be harder to calibrate this method since you basically have to guess and check, and go back and forth with the various controls since they're interactive and not really. I know with the Panasonic, if you go too high on the brightness slider you start clipping highlights pretty bad, but fiddling with the other picture controls can restore them. I know that was frustrating to me. The up side of this, is these algorithms can be dynamic. For example madVR measures the brightness of every frame and will adjust it's tone mapping accordingly, and while I'm not sure if it does, it could adjust the mapping on a pixel level to retain contrast in highlights that would be reduced with a static mapping like a custom curve.

But like I said, the end result is largely similar. So that said, with the SDR2020 there are probably two ways to handle it:

Try to map it all the way down to SDR, ie 50nits/16fL (or whatever you use), but it's probably better to treat it like it's HDR, since really it still is, it's just using a different tone curve. This is what I'm doing now with madVR, basically I have the exact same calibration on my RS600 as I do for native HDR, but I have the gamma set to 2.4 instead of my IMPORTed custom curve. Remember SDR2020 isn't really converting the video to SDR, it's just mapping it from one curve to another, so really, you should be calibrating/treating it like HDR still, at least as far as brightness goes.

As for the difference, well it's not dramatic, it's more similar than not (assuming a correctly created/calibrated custom curve). However madVR (and presumably Oppo's beta tone mapping feature) can be a lot smarter than a custom curve when it comes to retaining details in highlights and shadows in particular. I believe this is what Kris was talking about regarding comparing his JVC in native HDR or via Lumagen's Intensity Mapping to his OLED.

Hopefully in a generation or two, we'll see projectors with some truly smart HDR tone mapping, and not just using some canned ST.2084 EOTF with a roll off.
Thanks, do u use rec 709patterns to set contrast and brightness or 4K patterns? I’m assuming rec 709?

Edit: I’m streaming remuxes, so my cheapo android streamer would map the curve from hdr to sdr?

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post #28395 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 03:06 PM
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Ok, I'm going to be pickier than necessary, and I'm just picking your post because it references pretty much the whole discussion from the past page or two.

Firstly, while the end result is similar, there are some important differences between "SDR2020" and custom curves, the most important part is that with a custom curve, you are telling the projector how it should should handle native HDR, ie content coded with the ST.2084 EOTF (or an HLG curve). This means that everything mapping wise is done in the projector, and it will work for, and apply the same mapping, to any source you throw at it, whether it be UHD Blu-ray from a disc, streaming content, ripped content, etc. This curve takes into account the exact parameters of your room, plus your preferences, namely it takes into account the actual brightenss of your setup along with your desired nominal image brightness. The down side is that the curve is "dumb", in that it's a fixed curve that is applied to everything regardless of what's in the content, for example a curve configured for 4000 nits that works with everything, will be leaving brightness (for highlights mostly) on the table if the content doesn't go that high (like some titles that are well under 300 nits peak) since it's always configured for 4000 nits.

On the flip side, SDR2020 is the player mapping the HDR content "down" to an power (or maybe BT.1886) curve. The player doesn't know anything about your environment, it's a "one size fits all" mapping, perhaps with some parameters to adjust like the brightness slider in the Panasonic, or the target nit level in madVR or the Oppo. It can be harder to calibrate this method since you basically have to guess and check, and go back and forth with the various controls since they're interactive and not really. I know with the Panasonic, if you go too high on the brightness slider you start clipping highlights pretty bad, but fiddling with the other picture controls can restore them. I know that was frustrating to me. The up side of this, is these algorithms can be dynamic. For example madVR measures the brightness of every frame and will adjust it's tone mapping accordingly, and while I'm not sure if it does, it could adjust the mapping on a pixel level to retain contrast in highlights that would be reduced with a static mapping like a custom curve.

But like I said, the end result is largely similar. So that said, with the SDR2020 there are probably two ways to handle it:

Try to map it all the way down to SDR, ie 50nits/16fL (or whatever you use), but it's probably better to treat it like it's HDR, since really it still is, it's just using a different tone curve. This is what I'm doing now with madVR, basically I have the exact same calibration on my RS600 as I do for native HDR, but I have the gamma set to 2.4 instead of my IMPORTed custom curve. Remember SDR2020 isn't really converting the video to SDR, it's just mapping it from one curve to another, so really, you should be calibrating/treating it like HDR still, at least as far as brightness goes.

As for the difference, well it's not dramatic, it's more similar than not (assuming a correctly created/calibrated custom curve). However madVR (and presumably Oppo's beta tone mapping feature) can be a lot smarter than a custom curve when it comes to retaining details in highlights and shadows in particular. I believe this is what Kris was talking about regarding comparing his JVC in native HDR or via Lumagen's Intensity Mapping to his OLED.

Hopefully in a generation or two, we'll see projectors with some truly smart HDR tone mapping, and not just using some canned ST.2084 EOTF with a roll off.
Stanger, would you share the settings you are using for highlight information in the HDR to SDR conversion settings?

Have you had a look and compared whats its doing to highlights and colours vs the normal HDR curves?

I have found MadVR conversion to actually negatively affect the highlight information and colour overall when its doing tone mapping, and the information is not able to be restored to a level that matches any of the custom HDR curves.

To not have compromised highlights you MUST use the Restore Hue settings, and there is no combination of settings there that truly resores the correct highlight gradation and colour to the area that is affects. I tested this at length and took quick photos of it too, it gets really close, but its not close enough. You can also see what its doing to the image if you look at HDR colour clipping test patterns which illustrates what happens in brighter highlights that contain colour information.

The inconsistencies are very visible in Mad Max.

There is also a notable and very clear colour shift and oversaturation overall when using it vs the calibrated BT2020 HDR curves. And yes, before you ask, I am most certainly telling MadVR that I have a calibrated BT2020 display when I am using the conversion. Yet there is still a colour shift, notably red, which is quite obvious.

The only way I could see around this would be to create a 3D LUT using the HDR to SDR conversion at the same time as measuring Rec2020 primaries while the conversion is in place in order to measure and correct any colour shift that is occuring.

Just quickly, this is what it looks like:

Normal HDR Curves:



HDR to SDR Conversion with BT2020 calibration selected at various nit level outputs (All other calibration settings including Rec709 and P3 still produce the wrong colours)





And to see what it does to test patterns in the most hue setting mode to get highlights looking correct:



When it should look closer to this:



Current MadVR Settings, tried all of them:



Tried every combination of settings on this page.




Thoughts?

p.s. If anyone such as Manni jumps in here to tell me I am incompetent and I am doing it wrong, perhaps take a moment to think about posting a useful comment that actually helps solve this issue rather than going nowhere.
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post #28396 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 04:53 PM
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What gamma are u using for sdr bt2020?
2.4 (or more accurately closer to BT1886)
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post #28397 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 07:12 PM
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Thanks mark, I’ll give those a try!

On a humorous note, I was about to give up on HDR when I realized I wasn’t switching the gamma correction to “import”. I was like man, all these custom curves look the same and terrible. I just need Linker to get the DI back.
Thanks Mark! Your posted hex codes worked like a charm. Now I can switch between gammas quickly without my wife complaining or having to systematically go through all of them to get to the right one.
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post #28398 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
What gamma are u using for sdr bt2020?
1886 based on 2.4 and I target 50 nits peak white.

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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Ok, using my blu Ray setttings, with colour profile set to bt2020...low lamp, iris 0, edid 10 on Linker...bit of a red push BUT definitely bright...I “think” it’s still as punchy as HDR...more viewing in progress, not sure why the red push...
Not sure about the red you are seeing.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Maybe I was mistaken. In the context of the JVC projectors, what you said is probably true. However, I think there are also people who actually convert from HDR ST.2084 to a power law gamma (e.g., 2.4) while keeping the wide gamut, and also use the term "SDR BT2020".
Yet that’s what SDR2020 typically refers to in this context from what I’ve seen here.

—-

The trouble as @stranger89 notes is that this is a source by source solution. And very few sources do it well or even at all. Most just convert to rec709 color, at which point standard blu-ray or HD is probably better.
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post #28399 of 31902 Old 01-21-2018, 11:55 PM
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Thanks Mark! Your posted hex codes worked like a charm. Now I can switch between gammas quickly without my wife complaining or having to systematically go through all of them to get to the right one.
Nice one! Glad they worked


Another thing I've done, and I presume this can be done in iRule, is to set a macro to first send the User Picture Mode (eg. Custom 1 renamed to HDR) then after a 4s delay send the Gamma Mode (Gamma 1 - 3 depending which you use). This then overrides the projector's automatic selection of gamma D.


I do have a Linker, but it doesn't play nicely with a Zappiti player at the moment, so this gives an elegant way to select the correct colour space and gamma without fiddling in menus or having to select gamma 1-3 separately.


Also, I send a standard picture mode 1s after a <stop> press on the Zappiti, so when you return to the menu screens, they're not blown out and you don't need to manually select an "SDR" mode.
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post #28400 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 12:34 AM
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I’m a total dope when it comes to media players and HTPCs (I hope to change that one day). But if you can use MadVR, manni01 has reported he feels the “SDR BT2020” remapping using this renderer is superior to installing custom HDR curves. So that is worth looking into if it is applicable to your situation. He has said that he would post recommendations for setting that up appropriately once he has had the time to work it all out.

I used to fiddle incessantly with HTPCs years ago, but I eventually decided I should probably try to watch a movie at some point, so now I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible, so for me, media players are the way forward.


Can't remember who posted it, but one of the best quotes I read recently on here about custom curves was "it's not rocket science" and once you understand what a gamma curve is squirting out in relation to what you're squeezing in, it's really dead simple - it's just finding the best way of applying it.


My opinion is that a gamma curve in the projector produced in equal parts from measurement, maths and common sense is the most elegant solution and also happens to be the easiest. At least until the manufacturers get their house in order and start actually using the HDR metadata properly!
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post #28401 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 12:36 AM
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...Hopefully in a generation or two, we'll see projectors with some truly smart HDR tone mapping, and not just using some canned ST.2084 EOTF with a roll off.
Very well said!
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Ok, I'm going to be pickier than necessary, and I'm just picking your post because it references pretty much the whole discussion from the past page or two.

Firstly, while the end result is similar, there are some important differences between "SDR2020" and custom curves, the most important part is that with a custom curve, you are telling the projector how it should should handle native HDR, ie content coded with the ST.2084 EOTF (or an HLG curve). This means that everything mapping wise is done in the projector, and it will work for, and apply the same mapping, to any source you throw at it, whether it be UHD Blu-ray from a disc, streaming content, ripped content, etc. This curve takes into account the exact parameters of your room, plus your preferences, namely it takes into account the actual brightenss of your setup along with your desired nominal image brightness. The down side is that the curve is "dumb", in that it's a fixed curve that is applied to everything regardless of what's in the content, for example a curve configured for 4000 nits that works with everything, will be leaving brightness (for highlights mostly) on the table if the content doesn't go that high (like some titles that are well under 300 nits peak) since it's always configured for 4000 nits.

On the flip side, SDR2020 is the player mapping the HDR content "down" to an power (or maybe BT.1886) curve. The player doesn't know anything about your environment, it's a "one size fits all" mapping, perhaps with some parameters to adjust like the brightness slider in the Panasonic, or the target nit level in madVR or the Oppo. It can be harder to calibrate this method since you basically have to guess and check, and go back and forth with the various controls since they're interactive and not really. I know with the Panasonic, if you go too high on the brightness slider you start clipping highlights pretty bad, but fiddling with the other picture controls can restore them. I know that was frustrating to me. The up side of this, is these algorithms can be dynamic. For example madVR measures the brightness of every frame and will adjust it's tone mapping accordingly, and while I'm not sure if it does, it could adjust the mapping on a pixel level to retain contrast in highlights that would be reduced with a static mapping like a custom curve.

But like I said, the end result is largely similar. So that said, with the SDR2020 there are probably two ways to handle it:

Try to map it all the way down to SDR, ie 50nits/16fL (or whatever you use), but it's probably better to treat it like it's HDR, since really it still is, it's just using a different tone curve. This is what I'm doing now with madVR, basically I have the exact same calibration on my RS600 as I do for native HDR, but I have the gamma set to 2.4 instead of my IMPORTed custom curve. Remember SDR2020 isn't really converting the video to SDR, it's just mapping it from one curve to another, so really, you should be calibrating/treating it like HDR still, at least as far as brightness goes.

As for the difference, well it's not dramatic, it's more similar than not (assuming a correctly created/calibrated custom curve). However madVR (and presumably Oppo's beta tone mapping feature) can be a lot smarter than a custom curve when it comes to retaining details in highlights and shadows in particular. I believe this is what Kris was talking about regarding comparing his JVC in native HDR or via Lumagen's Intensity Mapping to his OLED.

Hopefully in a generation or two, we'll see projectors with some truly smart HDR tone mapping, and not just using some canned ST.2084 EOTF with a roll off.

Excellent write up and info Stanger89! There is a third option too though. You can do like I did with HarperVision (and now the German's are for the Sony's custom gammas) and still send full HDR to the projector, but then manually switch to SDR mode on the projector (while maintaining the HDR input signal). This will then cause you to have to make a custom gamma and really jerk some of the picture settings in the menus around to get it back looking normal and awesome and better than straight HDR on projectors (and most other options in my humble opinion!).

Anyone wanting more info can check out the links below my signature on how to do this with the Epsons. Check out the Sony 285 and 385 threads for what's being done there.

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post #28403 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 01:58 AM
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Excellent write up and info Stanger89! There is a third option too though. You can do like I did with HarperVision (and now the German's are for the Sony's custom gammas) and still send full HDR to the projector, but then manually switch to SDR mode on the projector (while maintaining the HDR input signal). This will then cause you to have to make a custom gamma and really jerk some of the picture settings in the menus around to get it back looking normal and awesome and better than straight HDR on projectors (and most other options in my humble opinion!).

Anyone wanting more info can check out the links below my signature on how to do this with the Epsons. Check out the Sony 285 and 385 threads for what's being done there.

E-A-G-L-E-S.......EAGLES!!!!!

Not quite sure what you're saying here in relation to the JVCs - By applying a modified BT.2084 curve and a BT.2020 colour space to a WCG HDR input are we not doing exactly what you say above but just in a slightly different way? ie using the gamma curve to make white and black level adjustments rather than using a more standard curve and changing white/black level with contrast & brightness afterwards?
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Stranger... how are you calibrating your straight line 2.4 gamma? Do you use the projector gamma controls or do use arve's to design a traditional 2.4?

Harper... can you comment on how you are adjusting the sdr gamma controls to shoehorn the hdr souce?

I am also curious if the madvr or oppo tone mapping is linear or can you tweak, stretch or compress areas of the map to suit a desired look?

I'd love to get that link again with the nit information for films. Also, Is there a link(s) which keeps a master list and updates it to include more titles? It would be nice if the studios would provide the tech info right on the title to assist with playback setups. In this regard, is there a trend as far as films being mastered to 300, 1000 and 4000? Or are they falling where ever right now? Seems a little bit like the wild west just now, until maybe a new thx-esque sheriff comes to town. Maybe that will be dolby?

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post #28405 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The down side is that the curve is "dumb", in that it's a fixed curve that is applied to everything regardless of what's in the content, for example a curve configured for 4000 nits that works with everything, will be leaving brightness (for highlights mostly) on the table if the content doesn't go that high (like some titles that are well under 300 nits peak) since it's always configured for 4000 nits.
Haven't people been using two custom tone mapping curves, one for 1000-nit master and the other for 4000-nit master?

Quote:
On the flip side, SDR2020 is the player mapping the HDR content "down" to an power (or maybe BT.1886) curve. The player doesn't know anything about your environment, it's a "one size fits all" mapping, perhaps with some parameters to adjust like the brightness slider in the Panasonic, or the target nit level in madVR or the Oppo. It can be harder to calibrate this method since you basically have to guess and check, and go back and forth with the various controls since they're interactive and not really.
I don't know if this process can even be called "calibration".
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post #28406 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Haven't people been using two custom tone mapping curves, one for 1000-nit master and the other for 4000-nit master?

Those are only the levels of the mastering monitor used in grading - the actual peak levels which vary from film to film can range from a few hundred nits to a couple of thousand.


Have a look at "Maximum Content Light Level" in MediaInfo - that's the important number.


That's why it's important for the manufacturers to start using the data correctly.
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post #28407 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Current MadVR Settings, tried all of them:



Tried every combination of settings on this page.




Thoughts?
I'm pretty close to that, with one exception, I think I've got my "fix to bright" setting at 90% luminance reduction, 10% saturation reduction. I really should play around with it more though. I also haven't settled on a peak nits. 200 resulted in an image that's way too bright, way, way brighter than SDR. I think I've got mine at 300 now too, and that still seems too bright.

Also, I've got my calibrated gamma set to 2.4, since that's what my projector is calibrated to.

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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Excellent write up and info Stanger89! There is a third option too though. You can do like I did with HarperVision (and now the German's are for the Sony's custom gammas) and still send full HDR to the projector, but then manually switch to SDR mode on the projector (while maintaining the HDR input signal). This will then cause you to have to make a custom gamma and really jerk some of the picture settings in the menus around to get it back looking normal and awesome and better than straight HDR on projectors (and most other options in my humble opinion!).
That's basically what the custom gamma is, it's just that Arve made a tool to compute/upload it for us. The first custom gammas we did were by hand adjusting the 11-point gamma settings to be correct.

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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Stranger... how are you calibrating your straight line 2.4 gamma? Do you use the projector gamma controls or do use arve's to design a traditional 2.4?
I just do an autocal, then select a Custom gamma, 2.4, and then +2 on the Dark Level which seems to get pretty close to BT.1886.

Quote:
Harper... can you comment on how you are adjusting the sdr gamma controls to shoehorn the hdr souce?
Not to speak for Dave, but what I remember reading in the Epson threads, he's just cranking on the multi-point gamma controls, or, exactly the same thing we're doing with custom curves, it's just we've got a tool to do it.

Quote:
I am also curious if the madvr or oppo tone mapping is linear or can you tweak, stretch or compress areas of the map to suit a desired look?
Javs posted the madVR controls above, so that's pretty much what you've got to work with there.

Quote:
I'd love to get that link again with the nit information for films. Also, Is there a link(s) which keeps a master list and updates it to include more titles? It would be nice if the studios would provide the tech info right on the title to assist with playback setups. In this regard, is there a trend as far as films being mastered to 300, 1000 and 4000? Or are they falling where ever right now? Seems a little bit like the wild west just now, until maybe a new thx-esque sheriff comes to town. Maybe that will be dolby?
Someone posted this, no idea if it's being kept up or not:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=184653968

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Haven't people been using two custom tone mapping curves, one for 1000-nit master and the other for 4000-nit master?
The more posts/threads I read, the more I think Kris Deering is right, including the mastering monitor details in the metadata was a mistake. Knowing the mastering monitor details, whether the Max Luminance is 1000 or 4000, or whether the black level was 0.005 or 0, doesn't tell us anything useful, and has just, and continues to lead to confusion and taking wrong paths. Most notably look at the recent discussion on calibrating black level. For a long time we thought it was "optimal" to calibrate to black of 0.005 because of a couple of poorly mastered titles and the coincidence that they happened to be from 0.005 nit-black mastering monitors.

But the mastering monitor properties are utterly useless. What we should be paying attention to is MaxCLL, that's what says what the brightest pixel in the movie is, and what's relevant. Take a look at Blade Runner 2049, it's reported as Max Luminance (mastering monitor) of 10,000, however it's MaxCLL is 181. If you were going to pick a curve for that, would it be better to pick a 4000 nit curve, because the Max Luminance is > 1100? Or should you pick a 1100 nit curve because Max CLL is < 1100?

There's lots and lots of "1000 nit" titles that have MaxCLL and MaxFALL brighter than "4000 nit" titles, so going by the mastering monitor properties is no more likely to lead to an "optimal" curve than just using one curve for everything, which is my recommendation. When I've tried comparing curves, where the only thing I change is the white clipping point, the results are vanishingly small, if I wasn't watching the curve be uploaded, I wouldn't notice a difference at all.
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post #28408 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 05:48 AM
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The more posts/threads I read, the more I think Kris Deering is right, including the mastering monitor details in the metadata was a mistake. Knowing the mastering monitor details, whether the Max Luminance is 1000 or 4000, or whether the black level was 0.005 or 0, doesn't tell us anything useful, and has just, and continues to lead to confusion and taking wrong paths. Most notably look at the recent discussion on calibrating black level. For a long time we thought it was "optimal" to calibrate to black of 0.005 because of a couple of poorly mastered titles and the coincidence that they happened to be from 0.005 nit-black mastering monitors.
I think it boils down to a different philosophy - Do you want to calibrate your display to match what was on the mastering display (within the limitation of the peak luminance of your display), or to adjust things get the brightest white and the deepest black without clipping.
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post #28409 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I think it boils down to a different philosophy - Do you want to calibrate your display to match what was on the mastering display (within the limitation of the peak luminance of your display), or to adjust things get the brightest white and the deepest black without clipping.
I don't think so, the ST.2084 EOTF is an "absolute" one, in that every digital code represents and explicit Luminance, so if your display can go brighter than MaxCLL, then you know you can display every pixel in that content without any roll off or tone mapping. You don't need to know Max Luminance, and it doesn't give you any more useful information.

In fact it can result in less accurate reproduction. Consider something like Blade Runner 2049, and say you've got a display capable of 200 nits, according to the Max Luminance (mastering monitor), you should be using a 10,000 nit curve, and that means a significant roll off because you'd want to retain detail all the way to 10,000 nits, which would result in a very low roll off point. However the movie itself never goes above 181 nits, in this case, using Max Luminance (mastering monitor) would lead you to use a curve that would (probably) impact the content, where as using MaxCLL would reveal that you could display every pixel in the movie without any tone mapping/roll off and display it exactly as it was mastered.

That's the point, MaxCLL (assuming it's correct obviously) tells you what the actual max brightness of the content is, which may, or may not have any relation to the mastering monitor parameters. I know I'm not (and I doubt Kris is) advocating "adjusting" content to make it brighter or darker. Quite the contrary, what I'm saying (and what I think Kris was saying) is that the mastering monitor parameters are not useful in determining how the tone mapping should be done, because there is often no correlation between the mastering monitor parameters and the actual content.

Consider something like madVR, which basically has infinite curves available. You wouldn't want it applying tone mapping to compress everything to leave room for a non-existant 10,000 nit peak in Blade Runner based off the mastering monitor specs would you? No, you'd want it to do the minimum tone mapping necessary, which would be to use the MaxCLL of 181, and with a target of 200 nits output, would mean no tone mapping at all (in theory).

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post #28410 of 31902 Old 01-22-2018, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Excellent write up and info Stanger89! There is a third option too though. You can do like I did with HarperVision (and now the German's are for the Sony's custom gammas) and still send full HDR to the projector, but then manually switch to SDR mode on the projector (while maintaining the HDR input signal). This will then cause you to have to make a custom gamma and really jerk some of the picture settings in the menus around to get it back looking normal and awesome and better than straight HDR on projectors (and most other options in my humble opinion!).

Anyone wanting more info can check out the links below my signature on how to do this with the Epsons. Check out the Sony 285 and 385 threads for what's being done there.
Good point. This is what Chad did on my projector.

We send full HDR to the projector.

The projector is prevented from entering HDR mode.

He adjusts the gamma controls (the projector thinks it is SDR content and SDR mode) so that the received content (which is still full HDR) looks correct and uses the maximum range achievable on the projector.

(The fact that he and everyone else uses Arve's tool to adjust the SDR gamma mode for displaying HDR content, instead of using the user accessible controls like in your link, is just an awesome stroke of good 'luck'.)
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