Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 953 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28561 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, as I understand it, people are reporting that the Oppo is showing the best tone mapping for UHD sources now, but it's doing it when going from HDR to SDR (let's say a setting that avoids a washed out look in linear gamma). But how about the improvement in color luminance and specular highlights the HDR signal provides?

How is the Oppo 203 w/the newest beta providing better results than the custom curves found in the Arves tool when using the Oppo means converting to SDR, sacrificing those specular highlights? That's where I'm confused.
That really depends on ones screen size, throw distance, acoustic transparent screen etc. Some won't be able to even notice specular highlights or the increased color volume as they are already using high lamp and Iris wide open using HDR with a custom curve.

For me, I like having my projector in low lamp and the iris at -8 or -7 with the color filter in place. I then have headroom to open the iris up as the lamp ages. I also have less fan noise and heat to deal with. Those are important to me. It may not be perfect yet but, it shows they are still working on it. I'm curious if the Panasonic ub900 & HD-fury are still a better sdr2020 combo or if it has it's issues with clipping and such.

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post #28562 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, as I understand it, people are reporting that the Oppo is showing the best tone mapping for UHD sources now, but it's doing it when going from HDR to SDR (let's say a setting that avoids a washed out look in linear gamma). But how about the improvement in color luminance and specular highlights the HDR signal provides?

How is the Oppo 203 w/the newest beta providing better results than the custom curves found in the Arves tool when using the Oppo means converting to SDR, sacrificing those specular highlights? That's where I'm confused.
You need to ask someone thats actually tried.
I do not have the required Beta FW on my Oppo yet,
and will wait for the beta to be made an official release.

I prefer to use my Panasonic UB900 for 4K/UHD with HDR on my JVC
With custom gamma curve it looks extremely close to what I see on my OLED.

My Oppo is for DV UHD's on the OLED.
to date the only titles that I play on the JVC through the Oppo
are 3D blurays that are region B locked. Panny cant play those.
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post #28563 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, as I understand it, people are reporting that the Oppo is showing the best tone mapping for UHD sources now, but it's doing it when going from HDR to SDR (let's say a setting that avoids a washed out look in linear gamma). But how about the improvement in color luminance and specular highlights the HDR signal provides?

How is the Oppo 203 w/the newest beta providing better results than the custom curves found in the Arves tool when using the Oppo means converting to SDR, sacrificing those specular highlights? That's where I'm confused.
I don't think that's the case regarding specular highlights...the tone mapping is being done in the player versus in the projector. By outputting a SDR signal, it's doing what the HD Fury product does, which is "trick" the projector so it doesn't apply the wrong gamma curve (Gamma D) to the signal. All the information is still there, it's just in a different container (so to speak). I'd love to have @Manni01 confirm this.

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post #28564 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I don't think that's the case regarding specular highlights...the tone mapping is being done in the player versus in the projector. By outputting a SDR signal, it's doing what the HD Fury product does, which is "trick" the projector so it doesn't apply the wrong gamma curve (Gamma D) to the signal. All the information is still there, it's just in a different container (so to speak). I'd love to have @Manni01 confirm this.
Not manni, but Kris Deering posted this in the 640 thread:

Quote:

There is no such thing as HDR to SDR. There are only tone maps. You are just picking which one is doing the tone map. So you either create your own tone map with the Arve tool, or you use the tone map that Oppo has delivered. It is not giving up anything for specular highlights, it is just creating a curve that overlays a standard gamma (2.4) so the projector doesn't apply its own HDR processing. The Oppo's image will have much better shadow detail and the image won't have that dim look that so many complain about.
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post #28565 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:22 AM
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That was my understanding as well. Kris is the expert here, so I'm glad I didn't muck it up!

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post #28566 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, as I understand it, people are reporting that the Oppo is showing the best tone mapping for UHD sources now, but it's doing it when going from HDR to SDR (let's say a setting that avoids a washed out look in linear gamma).
This is no different than using a player+HDfury+custom curve approach. It's just that your custom curve is being handled by the player instead of being uploaded to and run by the projector, and the HDfury is no longer necessary for DI.

EDIT: or just go with what Kris said! Lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
But how about the improvement in color luminance and specular highlights the HDR signal provides?
Color seems improved using the new Oppo curve(s)- especially compared to the brighter curves you might make using Arve's tool. Remember: you're still in BT.2020 color space, so there's no compromise there. Also- some of this will come down to personal taste and setup. If you prefer a high contrast image, you can do that by running low lamp with your iris closed down, but you will be sacrificing gamut coverage and the impact of some of those specular highlights (which simply won't be as bright) in the process. If you prefer to go as bright as possible, you can get more of those things back by opening your iris and running high lamp, but at the expense of contrast/black levels.
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post #28567 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
That really depends on ones screen size, throw distance, acoustic transparent screen etc. Some won't be able to even notice specular highlights or the increased color volume as they are already using high lamp and Iris wide open using HDR with a custom curve.

For me, I like having my projector in low lamp and the iris at -8 or -7 with the color filter in place. I then have headroom to open the iris up as the lamp ages. I also have less fan noise and heat to deal with. Those are important to me. It may not be perfect yet but, it shows they are still working on it. I'm curious if the Panasonic ub900 & HD-fury are still a better sdr2020 combo or if it has it's issues with clipping and such.
Thanks, Tom. That is helpful. Yeah, I have the Fury and the UB900 and should give it a try by flagging out HDR. And with HDR on, I too run my PJ in low lamp. I could run it in high also as fan noise almost silent there too (different JVC model).

The newest firmware on the UB900 allows the use of the Dynamic Range slider in HDR mode and that can help adjust against clipping.
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post #28568 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Not manni, but Kris Deering posted this in the 640 thread:

Quote:

There is no such thing as HDR to SDR. There are only tone maps. You are just picking which one is doing the tone map. So you either create your own tone map with the Arve tool, or you use the tone map that Oppo has delivered. It is not giving up anything for specular highlights, it is just creating a curve that overlays a standard gamma (2.4) so the projector doesn't apply its own HDR processing. The Oppo's image will have much better shadow detail and the image won't have that dim look that so many complain about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
That was my understanding as well. Kris is the expert here, so I'm glad I didn't muck it up!
Yes, I had covered the bases, so to say, and posted my question here in addition to there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
This is no different than using a player+HDfury+custom curve approach. It's just that your custom curve is being handled by the player instead of being uploaded to and run by the projector, and the HDfury is no longer necessary for DI.

EDIT: or just go with what Kris said! Lol!



Color seems improved using the new Oppo curve(s)- especially compared to the brighter curves you might make using Arve's tool. Remember: you're still in BT.2020 color space, so there's no compromise there. Also- some of this will come down to personal taste and setup. If you prefer a high contrast image, you can do that by running low lamp with your iris closed down, but you will be sacrificing gamut coverage and the impact of some of those specular highlights (which simply won't be as bright) in the process. If you prefer to go as bright as possible, you can get more of those things back by opening your iris and running high lamp, but at the expense of contrast/black levels.

Thank you all! That's helpful.
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post #28569 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That's an interesting point about test patterns not being the best way to test the Oppo mapping. I guess real world content is going to be the best way to test. Hmmmm...
It's just speculation. If it's doing "real" tone mapping, and not just curve adjustments, that means it looks at, and tries to retain local contrast (detail) and can do some non-linear things locally that don't apply to the whole. Kind of like how you can't calibrate with a DI enabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, as I understand it, people are reporting that the Oppo is showing the best tone mapping for UHD sources now, but it's doing it when going from HDR to SDR (let's say a setting that avoids a washed out look in linear gamma). But how about the improvement in color luminance and specular highlights the HDR signal provides?
Don't think about it as converting to SDR, think of it as converting to a format that our projectors better understand (gamma curve). As such you'd still calibrate like you were doing HDR (brighter peak white), so you'd still be getting HDR on screen, it's just transported in a different format to the projector.
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post #28570 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
...

it is just creating a curve that overlays a standard gamma (2.4) so the projector doesn't apply its own HDR processing.

...
So it sounds like the best gamma calibration to do in the auto-cal program at the start of all this is the power 2.4?
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post #28571 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 10:46 AM
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So it sounds like the best gamma calibration to do in the auto-cal program at the start of all this is the power 2.4?
AutoCal calibrates all gamma curves at the same time.
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post #28572 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 11:13 AM
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I'm a noob. I own a X950 (RS 600) JVC projector model and an Oppo 205. Does the Oppo new firmware benefit this series? Is it necessary to download the auto-cal, in the positive case, to use the four modes? Thanks in advance for the information.
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post #28573 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 11:28 AM
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AutoCal calibrates all gamma curves at the same time.
I forgot. I've only done this once. I touch it up with CalMAN and a LUT box. But now that I'm into 4k... I'd have to pay more for a LUT box than my projector cost! So... back to auto-cal, though this projector is very stable.
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post #28574 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
I'm a noob. I own a X950 (RS 600) JVC projector model and an Oppo 205. Does the Oppo new firmware benefit this series? Is it necessary to download the auto-cal, in the positive case, to use the four modes? Thanks in advance for the information.
Sure, the new BETA OPPO firmware gives you more options for converting HDR to SDR2020 output, which can benefit your RS600 because it will probably look better with that than when sending the RS600 HDR (unless you have a custom HDR curve developed for your setup in your home, in which case some people prefer that).

--

COMPLETELY separate, you can use Autocal and the right light meter to calibrate your projector.

--

COMPLETELY separate, some people use the Autocal program to upload a custom gamma for HDR. If you haven't been down that path, using the features of your Oppo is probably easier and just as satisfying in most cases.
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post #28575 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter Santos Filho View Post
I'm a noob. I own a X950 (RS 600) JVC projector model and an Oppo 205. Does the Oppo new firmware benefit this series? Is it necessary to download the auto-cal, in the positive case, to use the four modes? Thanks in advance for the information.
The Oppo assumes that your display has a gamma of 2.4, so any "gamma droop" in the projector will affect the Oppo curves as well. On the other hand, since people adjust the Oppo visually (as compared with calibrating using a meter), it really doesn't matter much.
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post #28576 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Oppo assumes that your display has a gamma of 2.4, so any "gamma droop" in the projector will affect the Oppo curves as well. On the other hand, since people adjust the Oppo visually (as compared with calibrating using a meter), it really doesn't matter much.
So, what's the general consensus, everyone? Is the Oppo tone mapping w/the beta better than the Panny UB900+Fury combo?
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post #28577 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Oppo assumes that your display has a gamma of 2.4, so any "gamma droop" in the projector will affect the Oppo curves as well. On the other hand, since people adjust the Oppo visually (as compared with calibrating using a meter), it really doesn't matter much.
What does that mean exactly?

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post #28578 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
Take a look at the blue R rating warning in the beginning of Blade Runner 2049.
🖖🏼
Are you using the JVC BT.2020 profile? Or another?

As I mentioned earlier, I had downloaded Manni's Rec-2020NF (No Filter) profile a couple of weeks ago. I only did it because I was annoyed by all the filter on/off changes when the Vertex Macros changed User Mode based on content. I wanted to see how it compared to the JVC BT.2020 profile. I did not perform an Autocal after loading it to my RS500.

I started up both my RS500 and LG B7A OLED tonight and loaded Blade Runner 2049 into my Oppo. I paused the Oppo at the Ratings splash to visually compare the color in my RS500 and LG.

When played in HDR the blue color was visually equal on the LG, RS500/BT.2020 profile, and RS500/Rec-2020NF profile. This was with an Arve Tool created custom HDR gamma in the JVC.

When played with HDR OFF (BT.2020), the blue color was the same for LG and RS500/BT.2020, and did not appear to be of a different blue hue than I saw in HDR. But the RS500/Rec-2020NF combination had a definite purple tint to the blue Rating splash. This was with Mode 4 and Target Luminance set to 300 in the Oppo and Gamma 2.4 in the RS500.

So as far as I am concerned, there is no color issue with the new Oppo HDR Off (BT.2020) option.

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post #28579 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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What does that mean exactly?
JVC projectors are notorious for experiencing a "droop" in gamma over time. However, such droop can be repaired by running the autocal software. With regard to the OPPO, there are internal controls that can compensate for the droop without having to run the autocal. It would be better to correct the droop with the autocal though.
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post #28580 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
JVC projectors are notorious for experiencing a "droop" in gamma over time. However, such droop can be repaired by running the autocal software. With regard to the OPPO, there are internal controls that can compensate for the droop without having to run the autocal. It would be better to correct the droop with the autocal though.
I get that, but that's not what I thought I was seeing in that post.
Thanks

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post #28581 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You shouldn't have to calibrate that out.

Unfortunately MadVR seems to be doing the same thing. I don't want to have to make a LUT or a calibration manually using primaries displays through the HDR tone mapping, that just seems like a bit of a mess.

There should be no colour shift in these things.
I wasn't asking whether you should or shouldn't (which I agree with). I was asking if it "could".


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I did a 10 point gray scale calibration with the color filter in place before I evaluated.

I don’t think it’s somthing that could be calibrated out.

OK thanks for clarifying.


Quote:
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Not manni, but Kris Deering posted this in the 640 thread:



Quote:



There is no such thing as HDR to SDR. There are only tone maps. You are just picking which one is doing the tone map. So you either create your own tone map with the Arve tool, or you use the tone map that Oppo has delivered. It is not giving up anything for specular highlights, it is just creating a curve that overlays a standard gamma (2.4) so the projector doesn't apply its own HDR processing. The Oppo's image will have much better shadow detail and the image won't have that dim look that so many complain about.

Sounds like HarperVision!
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post #28582 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That's an interesting point about test patterns not being the best way to test the Oppo mapping. I guess real world content is going to be the best way to test. Hmmmm...
Just an FYI; the Masciola HDR test patterns I checked (Black Clipping and White Clipping) both had HDR10 metadata reported by my Vertex when played in HDR.

Max Display Luminance 1000
Min Display Luminance .0005
MaxCLL 1000
MaxFALL 400
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post #28583 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Interesting,

Im getting a colour shift using MadVR's tone mapping too. This time for me I notice it in the reds.

Just out of interest, on the Oppo, could you check, this scene?

Mad Max - 20min 14seconds

Spoiler!
I tested that scene in HDR with your 4000 nit curve loaded to my RS500 and then again with Oppo HDR Off (BT.2020) Mode 4 / Target Luminance 300. In RS500 BT.2020 profile and Gamma 2.4. Time stamp was different in my playback; 20 minutes 12 seconds.

I do not see the red color shift that you have in your Tone Mapping screen shot. Neither do I see the white blotches. My colors are very similar between HDR and Oppo HDR Off BT.2020. Though I can't do a side by side comparison and I am totally inept at photography. I did adjust the RS500 iris for the SDR test so that the picture closely matched what I saw on my LG OLED.
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post #28584 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I wasn't asking whether you should or shouldn't (which I agree with). I was asking if it "could".
Oh I know, I was just picking up a pitchfork!!

Source displays etc should all be outputting the correct colour for a given gamut, its really annoying when they don't, so much so, I probably wouldn't use them if they did.

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post #28585 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
I tested that scene in HDR with your 4000 nit curve loaded to my RS500 and then again with Oppo HDR Off (BT.2020) Mode 4 / Target Luminance 300. In RS500 BT.2020 profile and Gamma 2.4. Time stamp was different in my playback; 20 minutes 12 seconds.

I do not see the red color shift that you have in your Tone Mapping screen shot. Neither do I see the white blotches. My colors are very similar between HDR and Oppo HDR Off BT.2020. Though I can't do a side by side comparison and I am totally inept at photography. I did adjust the RS500 iris for the SDR test so that the picture closely matched what I saw on my LG OLED.
Thanks, thats good to know the Oppo does seem to be outputting the right colour then.

And also good to know there does seem to be an issue at least with my MadVR setup, I am sure its something that will be worked out eventually. Those white blotches, those are something I do take issue with, and why I don't use the MadVR tone mapping right now. The colour shift is also annoying, but yeah, it is what it is.

So I am guessing that your fire highlights, they probably look closer to what I photographed on my HDR one yeah? Definitely a bright orange, not shifting nearer to white.

I know my HDR Curve shot is accurate, that's been measured etc, so that's the correct colour for that.

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post #28586 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
So I am guessing that your fire highlights, they probably look closer to what I photographed on my HDR one yeah? Definitely a bright orange, not shifting nearer to white.
Correct.

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post #28587 of 31979 Old 01-29-2018, 11:47 PM
 
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Ok, so let me see if i have this correct...

... the oppo "tone mapping" is converting to 0-1024 hdr luminance range to 0-256 sdr luminance range, correct? Maybe to the 16-235 is more accurate.

... is the oppo hdr slider function for adjusting for highlight clipping similar to the 640/990/9900 projector hdr controls for picture tone, bright level or a combo of both? I'll get a better sense of what's going on once i have a oppo 203 in hand. I'm curious if the slider function and top end is linear or remains a fixed curve, or does the shape of the top end curve change based on luminance value, 400, 400, 600, etc? I assume it's linear with a sharp cut off point that moves up and down the luminance range, with the primary gamma curve, tone map shaping happening with modes 1 thru 4.

Regarding ths ub900, does the hdr slider function also control mapping with test files hosted on the usb port?

Since the 203 has 2x hdmi outputs, it looks like i could use a set up like this ...

... all other sources -> denon receiver -> oppo -> projector, with the oppo 2nd hdmi audio out -> denon for audio playback when using the oppo for media playback.

That way all 4k hdr sources which currently pass thru the denon -> projector, could be tone mapped by the oppo 203?

This makes me wonder when there would be any benefit of letting the ub900 handle certain bd titles and use the oppo for tone mapping. Maybe this would induce some audio video sync issues?

Last edited by Bytehoven; 01-30-2018 at 12:14 AM.
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post #28588 of 31979 Old 01-30-2018, 01:00 AM
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I'm having issues with PJ (X7000) which seems to interfere with the other HDMI output of my AV processor (Yamaha 5100).
I have the following setup:
Yamaha 5100 AV processor.
Various sources, including Oppo 203, Xbox, Sat box connected to 5100
HDMI out 1 is connectd to JVC PJ
HDMI out 2 - to LG 4K TV
PJ is connects with a fiberoptic HDMI cable from Kramer: https://www.kramerav.com/Product/CP-AOCH/60

The problem I'm having is when I want to watch any source on TV with my PJ off, the TV cannot lock to the 5100. You can see flickering in cycles where it tries to lock the signals.
I think that this is due to the fact that the optical cable is active and there is some activity within the cable even with the turned off projector, which causes some interference between HDMI Out 1 and HDMI Out 2. This doesnt happen with a normal cable or if I unplug the optical cable from either the PJ or 5100.
I'm not sure which piece of my equipment is to blame for this, but it seems that even when PJ is off, the HDMI inputs remain active and powered causing the cable to be also active. As a reuslt Yamaha is trying constantly to lock with the PJ and while trying to lock, it flickers the HDMI out to TV.
Has anyone had any similar experience with optical cables or just similar experience? Is it possible to completely power off the HDMI outputs when PJ is off? Any other solutions?
BTW, I previousely had Celerity optical cable, which requires external power on the PJ side. I had the same issue there too, but I managed to build a device that cuts off the power to the cable when the PJ is turned off. That solved the problem.
Kramer cable doesnt requre external power, so this trick doesn't work anymore.
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post #28589 of 31979 Old 01-30-2018, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
Clipping is user controlled. If you see clipping, you need to drop your luminance target until it goes away. I've seen no evidence of black crush on Mode 2, but that's just going by eye. No reason to rush into anything regarding your purchase- wait a bit and see how things pan out. There will still be Oppos available in March and beyond.



Actually, you can pipe your XB1X through the Oppo and apply the HDR processing to it as well. I'm doing exactly that with my Nvidia Shield and it works great.
I agree with Strawberry on the new Oppo Beta. I switched back from custom curves to the Panny - Integral (HDR-SDR) as I could not get the custom curves as balanced (clipping) and bright as I wanted. The Panny - Integral is a great option, looked great with all UHD discs but the Oppo Beta seams to be much better. In addition, the HDMI input on the OPPO with my Roku is awesome. With my Marantz AV7702 that is only HDMI 2.0, I need to run UHD direct to the projector (and audio HDMI to the Marantz). Now, I can run UHD discs and Roku UHD (Netflix, Amazon, Vudu) with the new processing direct to the projector. They all look great (bright, good highlights, great shadow detail). I am impressed. The Oppo processing applied to other sources is awesome. The unit now is more than just a UHD player. It is a processor and UHD player -------> and keeps me from needing to invest in my legacy equipment (that is not that old).

Last edited by rrebello; 01-30-2018 at 07:31 AM.
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post #28590 of 31979 Old 01-30-2018, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, what's the general consensus? Is the Oppo tone mapping better than the Panny UB900+Fury combo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrebello View Post
I agree with Strawberry on the new Oppo Beta. I switched back from custom curves to the Panny - Integral (HDR-SDR) as I could not get the custom curves as balanced (clipping) and bright as I wanted. The Panny - Integral is a great option, looked great with all UHD discs but the Oppo Beta seams to be much better.

They all look great (bright, good highlights, great shadow detail). I am impressed. The Oppo processing applied to other sources is awesome. The unit now is more than just a UHD player. It is a processor and UHD player -------> and keeps me from needing to invest in my legacy equipment (that is not that old).
So, that's that.

When I used the Panny UB900-Integral without HDR checked off, the highlights on objects looked dull. I then used the Panny -Integral with HDR with ST2084 gamma in the X990, making some minor tweaks in the Panny's contrast and brightness settings. The image looked very good. Then came the Arves tool, and now this! So, it seems the consensus is this is better than all those previous mechanisms.

SO if I purchased the Oppo 203, I would then simply download the beta firmware via the internet and I'll be good to go?
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