Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 954 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28591 of 31987 Old 01-30-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So, that's that.

When I used the Panny UB900-Integral without HDR checked off, the highlights on objects looked dull. I then used the Panny -Integral with HDR with ST2084 gamma in the X990, making some minor tweaks in the Panny's contrast and brightness settings. The image looked very good. Then came the Arves tool, and now this! So, it seems the consensus is this is better than all those previous mechanisms.

SO if I purchased the Oppo 203, I would then simply download the beta firmware via the internet and I'll be good to go?
The firmware is still in Beta so you will have to download it on a thumb drive and load that way.
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post #28592 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 03:46 AM
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So is it just me who's bothered by Kris' comments that the Oppo beta firmware requires fiddling with every title you play?
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post #28593 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
So is it just me who's bothered by Kris' comments that the Oppo beta firmware requires fiddling with every title you play?
Yeah, that comment got me too...I have not pulled the trigger yet on the 203...perhaps there is a setting that doesn’t let perfect be the enemy of the good and is more or less a set and forget...

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post #28594 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
So is it just me who's bothered by Kris' comments that the Oppo beta firmware requires fiddling with every title you play?
I don't remember "Every title", wasn't the mention of mastering at different levels the trigger, like clipped whites? I think claw said he measured mode 2 and it was 10,000, so he dropped it to mode 4- and measured 4,000...or something along those lines..posts are in the Oppo thread.

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post #28595 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 04:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
So is it just me who's bothered by Kris' comments that the Oppo beta firmware requires fiddling with every title you play?
Yes, but that is in the context of dialing in for max brightness before clipping. If you set it up so that it clips at 4000 nits, or even 1000 nits, it's no different than custom curves and an easier solution.

Only a process that actually calculates the source dynamics automatically would be hands free. That does not degrade what the oppo can do, especially given it's a less involved solution than madvr + htpc or a way expensive lumagen.

Yes it's a manual solution... but does that really detract from it's benefits?

If we're gonna blame someone on the the need to fiddle, let's lay the blame in the right place, and that is with film mastering process that really needs a standardization cop on the beat.
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post #28596 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 04:51 AM
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Yes, but that is in the context of dialing max brightness before clipping. If you set it up so that it clips at 4000 nits, or even 1000mmnits, it's no different than custom curves and an easier solution.
I don't know, that's not the impression I got, it seemed to me like if you set it to clip high (eg 4000 nits for Mad Max) then it would end up too dark for titles with less bright highlights.

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Yes it's a manual solution... but does that really detract from it's benefits?
Doesn't it? That was one of the big knocks against JVC's Gamma D implementation, you had to fiddle with it on a per-title basis to make things look acceptable. I know there are people out there who like to fiddle with each movie, but I'm not one of them. I don't want to have to look up the metadata before I pop in a disc, or to try to find a scene with highlights and check if things are OK before watching, or watch, and always wonder if something being crushed.

I'm not saying it's not great that Oppo is making improvements, but I'd hope that before they release the final they'd get it to a point where you can just set it up to not clip up to 4000 nits and just use that for every title.

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If we're gonna blame the need to fiddle, let's lay the blame in the right place, and that is with film mastering process that really needs a standardization cop on the beat.
I don't think the mastering is the problem, we've basically proven that with custom curves. With a properly designed custom curve, everything looks decent, that you don't need to chase setting for every title. Other than a handful of titles like Lucy that clearly have errors (elevated black floor) or Oblivion where who knows what went wrong, I haven't seen a lot of evidence of widespread mastering problems.

What I have seen is widespread poor HDR implementations, especially on projectors, and that should not be forgotten (maybe forgiven if they ever get their act together), which of course would likely have been lessened if there were standards for how to perform tone mapping.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting Kris's comments, especially since he keeps recommending it, but it really seems like a two-steps forward, two-steps back sort of thing. But like I said, it's beta, so hopefully they'll get the fiddly part worked out. I was pretty close to ordering an Oppo based on Kris's praise of the feature, but not if I'm going to have to guess and fiddle with every movie I put in the thing. That's just not acceptable IMO.
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post #28597 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 06:54 AM
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I thought that i would have to adjust a lot but it's not too much of a problem. I probably won't go out and buy an O PPO if I didn't have one. However, I find the picture more enjoyable than the custom curves. I was really considering buying a high gain screen to help with hdr even with the curves. I just could not get acceptable brightness. I created a 500nit curve to help cope with brightness on certain titles, so it was never just leave it on one setting and forget. Now, I can have too much brightness in hdr, so it's a better situation for me. It's not perfect but a step in the right direction. Basically I get more brightness for HDR with the OPPO on low lamp with the aperture at -8 than I did with my 4000nit curve with the aperture at 0 on high lamp. Adding more than double the native contrast with the OPPO route, it's a win-win in my situation.
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post #28598 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Basically I get more brightness for HDR with the OPPO on low lamp with the aperture at -8 than I did with my 4000nit curve with the aperture at 0 on high lamp. Adding more than double the native contrast with the OPPO route, it's a win-win in my situation.
Has anyone actually measured the OPPO EOTF to see what's giving the apparent brightness boost? The player can't possibly increase the light output from the projector.
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post #28599 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 07:53 AM
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Has anyone actually measured the OPPO EOTF to see what's giving the apparent brightness boost? The player can't possibly increase the light output from the projector.
The player is not giving any brightness boost. It's due to how player tone maps hdr.
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post #28600 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 08:18 AM
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Has anyone actually measured the OPPO EOTF to see what's giving the apparent brightness boost? The player can't possibly increase the light output from the projector.
No one has posted measurements OTHER THAN noting what they are seeing using black level test patterns.... which of course doesn't answer your question about how APL is increased (ie, what the EOTF or tone mapping looks like on a chart).

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I don't think the mastering is the problem, we've basically proven that with custom curves. With a properly designed custom curve, everything looks decent, that you don't need to chase setting for every title. Other than a handful of titles like Lucy that clearly have errors (elevated black floor) or Oblivion where who knows what went wrong, I haven't seen a lot of evidence of widespread mastering problems.

What I have seen is widespread poor HDR implementations, especially on projectors, and that should not be forgotten (maybe forgiven if they ever get their act together), which of course would likely have been lessened if there were standards for how to perform tone mapping.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting Kris's comments, especially since he keeps recommending it, but it really seems like a two-steps forward, two-steps back sort of thing. But like I said, it's beta, so hopefully they'll get the fiddly part worked out. I was pretty close to ordering an Oppo based on Kris's praise of the feature, but not if I'm going to have to guess and fiddle with every movie I put in the thing. That's just not acceptable IMO.
I think you are spot on here. We have seen, with the custom curve when created well, that it is possible to tone map in a way that works for all titles (other than known mistakes) without clipping black detail and highlight detail.

So far, the reports regarding the Oppo approach indicate it is VERY pleasing, VERY easy, and requires adjustment for each title to avoid clipping (and of course it always clips below 2% black at present according to posted tests).

If this can be solved, it sounds like a big win.

But even if it continues to require fiddling etc, it is probably easier for most users to get satisfactory results this way than to try to create a custom curve on their own given the amount of frustration people have experienced doing that.

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I don't remember "Every title", wasn't the mention of mastering at different levels the trigger, like clipped whites? I think claw said he measured mode 2 and it was 10,000, so he dropped it to mode 4- and measured 4,000...or something along those lines..posts are in the Oppo thread.
They clip at different points, but in order to retain highlight detail, one needs to twiddle with the luminance slider and try different modes (which may also interact with shadow detail as well). In other words, it's not just about the clipping point but also (behind the scenes) the shape of the curve the determines whether the image works.

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Yeah, that comment got me too...I have not pulled the trigger yet on the 203...perhaps there is a setting that doesn’t let perfect be the enemy of the good and is more or less a set and forget...
That's the key. I think that setting is called "Custom HDR gamma in the JVC".....so far.

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So is it just me who's bothered by Kris' comments that the Oppo beta firmware requires fiddling with every title you play?
Yep, that's the only thing keeping me from ordering another Oppo.
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post #28601 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 08:33 AM
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The player is not giving any brightness boost. It's due to how player tone maps hdr.
I understand that. I just can’t imagine what kind of specular highlights one can get with -8 iris at low lamp, regardless of the tone map.
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post #28602 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 08:39 AM
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It is going to take time to determine the best combination of Mode and Target Luminance.

I could be wrong but it seems like I don't need to adjust Targent Lum. as often since I switched to mode 4 instead of 2. With mode 2 I kept seeing blown out highlights on some titles, and would have to raise the target from 300/400 to 500/600 or even higher in order to get detail in highlights.

So far with mode 4 it seems to be less of an issue. Maybe because the Oppo is not trying to tone map mostly non-existent content above 4000 nits in mode 4, while in mode 2 it does try to tone map out to 10000 nits and it ends up compressing highlights too much. I don't know.

One thing I found interesting was that in Mode 2/Target Lum. 300, I had to dial down the iris in my RS500 to -10 in Low Lamp for the picture to match the brightness my LG OLED was displaying. This is the same iris value I previously used for all SDR content while I needed to open the iris all the way for HDR with custom gammas. That shows me how much more overall brightness I can get this way than with JVC custom gammas.
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post #28603 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 08:57 AM
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One thing I found interesting was that in Mode 2/Target Lum. 300, I had to dial down the iris in my RS500 to -10 in Low Lamp for the picture to match the brightness my LG OLED was displaying which is the same iris value I previously used for all SDR content. That shows me how much more overall brightness I can get this way than with JVC custom gammas.
Unless the OPPO is doing some kind of dynamic mapping, I can’t think of any reason why a custom curve cannot produce similar “effects”. The shape of the curve might be significantly different than the ones we’ve been using.
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post #28604 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 09:02 AM
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I thought that i would have to adjust a lot but it's not too much of a problem. I probably won't go out and buy an O PPO if I didn't have one. However, I find the picture more enjoyable than the custom curves. I was really considering buying a high gain screen to help with hdr even with the curves. I just could not get acceptable brightness. I created a 500nit curve to help cope with brightness on certain titles, so it was never just leave it on one setting and forget. Now, I can have too much brightness in hdr, so it's a better situation for me. It's not perfect but a step in the right direction. Basically I get more brightness for HDR with the OPPO on low lamp with the aperture at -8 than I did with my 4000nit curve with the aperture at 0 on high lamp. Adding more than double the native contrast with the OPPO route, it's a win-win in my situation.
It sounds like you didn't have your multiplier or bw/bm set right. The way I always setup my curve is I set bm to my known peak brightness and then I mess with bw to get the overall brightness that I wanted. If you set bm to 100 (ie you have 100 nits) and bw to 25, you get a quite bright image, though I believe saturation in the highlights suffers a bit.

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If this can be solved, it sounds like a big win.
I certainly hope they do, and if they do, I may get one. Though that depends on how well new discs are "supported" for ripping, since right now I can just use madVR for all my UHD BDs.

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But even if it continues to require fiddling etc, it is probably easier for most users to get satisfactory results this way than to try to create a custom curve on their own given the amount of frustration people have experienced doing that.
Yeah, though given blee's comment above, I kind of wonder if there's a serious misunderstanding with many folks about how to setup a custom gamma.
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post #28605 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 09:06 AM
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Yes, interesting. You raise a good pint.

Has anyone who has had a professionally created custom gamma like those that Chad builds preferred the Oppo by a wide margin?

So far it seems people who had trouble getting a good custom curve prefer the Oppo, so it’s definitely a viable solution. But maybe not the only one....
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post #28606 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 09:17 AM
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It sounds like you didn't have your multiplier or bw/bm set right. The way I always setup my curve is I set bm to my known peak brightness and then I mess with bw to get the overall brightness that I wanted. If you set bm to 100 (ie you have 100 nits) and bw to 25, you get a quite bright image, though I believe saturation in the highlights suffers a bit.



I certainly hope they do, and if they do, I may get one. Though that depends on how well new discs are "supported" for ripping, since right now I can just use madVR for all my UHD BDs.



Yeah, though given blee's comment above, I kind of wonder if there's a serious misunderstanding with many folks about how to setup a custom gamma.

I never said that the custom curves where not a good solution or hinted that I had trouble with the simple process of creating one. I tried about 20 different custom curves. They are not hard to create. I used probably every curve that has been mentioned with different bms as well since I was interested in how they can look. But the brighter the curve, the less highlights you get. I use a 500nit curve as well as a 4000nit curve, which is supposed to be the best universal curve. However, I find that the OPPO tone mapping is just better. I have the OPPO and I can choose to use either one without spending any extra money. With the 4000nit curve, I needed at least 25ftL which can be a lot of lumens. I can use significantly less and get a similar image with double the native contrast.

Stanger, you will most likely use MadVR tone mapping over the custom curve.
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post #28607 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
It is going to take time to determine the best combination of Mode and Target Luminance.

I could be wrong but it seems like I don't need to adjust Targent Lum. as often since I switched to mode 4 instead of 2. With mode 2 I kept seeing blown out highlights on some titles, and would have to raise the target from 300/400 to 500/600 or even higher in order to get detail in highlights.

So far with mode 4 it seems to be less of an issue. Maybe because the Oppo is not trying to tone map mostly non-existent content above 4000 nits in mode 4, while in mode 2 it does try to tone map out to 10000 nits and it ends up compressing highlights too much. I don't know.

One thing I found interesting was that in Mode 2/Target Lum. 300, I had to dial down the iris in my RS500 to -10 in Low Lamp for the picture to match the brightness my LG OLED was displaying. This is the same iris value I previously used for all SDR content while I needed to open the iris all the way for HDR with custom gammas. That shows me how much more overall brightness I can get this way than with JVC custom gammas.
Damn I’m close to buying an Oppo! Sounds like heaven with plenty of brightness!

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post #28608 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 09:56 AM
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Yes, interesting. You raise a good pint.

Has anyone who has had a professionally created custom gamma like those that Chad builds preferred the Oppo by a wide margin?

So far it seems people who had trouble getting a good custom curve prefer the Oppo, so it’s definitely a viable solution. But maybe not the only one....
Kris Deering has said it's better, which is why it's so interesting. Hopefully they can get it sorted so it's plug and play.

Right now it seems it's kind of a pick your poison sort of thing, you can have a custom curve that works well for everything, or the Oppo's tone mapping, which is reportedly better, but isn't universal, and requires a bit of tinkering on a per-title basis.

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I never said that the custom curves where not a good solution or hinted that I had trouble with the simple process of creating one. I tried about 20 different custom curves. They are not hard to create. I used probably every curve that has been mentioned with different bms as well since I was interested in how they can look. But the brighter the curve, the less highlights you get. I use a 500nit curve as well as a 4000nit curve, which is supposed to be the best universal curve. However, I find that the OPPO tone mapping is just better. I have the OPPO and I can choose to use either one without spending any extra money. With the 4000nit curve, I needed at least 25ftL which can be a lot of lumens. I can use significantly less and get a similar image with double the native contrast.
FWIW, I fully believe that the Oppo is better, once you get it dialed in, which is why I'm interested in it. I've just seen enough people have trouble with custom curves (like your comment about having to use a "500 nit curve" which I'm not sure what that means but it seems odd to me) that I wonder if many folks having trouble are adjusting the wrong things.

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Stanger, you will most likely use MadVR tone mapping over the custom curve.
I still haven't entirely decided which one I like better. I haven't taken any serious time to compare the two. I know with my initial settings madVR was way brighter (mid tones) but I've upped the target nits to bring that down and now they're closer.
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Damn I’m close to buying an Oppo! Sounds like heaven with plenty of brightness!

Same here. We have one left in stock and I'm about ready to pull the trigger myself!
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post #28610 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 12:07 PM
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Im getting a colour shift using MadVR's tone mapping too. This time for me I notice it in the reds.
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Thanks, thats good to know the Oppo does seem to be outputting the right colour then.

And also good to know there does seem to be an issue at least with my MadVR setup, I am sure its something that will be worked out eventually. Those white blotches, those are something I do take issue with, and why I don't use the MadVR tone mapping right now. The colour shift is also annoying, but yeah, it is what it is.
Key question: If you don't have a true 10,000 Nits BT.2020 display to compare to, how can you know which tone mapping has a color shift and which has not?

Anyway, the issue has been brought to my attention in this monster thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...ut-thread.html

So I'll follow-up in detail and with some suggestions there.
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post #28611 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 12:23 PM
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Yes, interesting. You raise a good pint.

Has anyone who has had a professionally created custom gamma like those that Chad builds preferred the Oppo by a wide margin?

So far it seems people who had trouble getting a good custom curve prefer the Oppo, so it’s definitely a viable solution. But maybe not the only one....
The problem here is there is no objective way to truly say one is better than the other. There is only subjective, and in that case the difference is CLEARLY in favor of the Oppo. Remember, when I brought all this stuff up early on I was talking about the Radiance Pro and how much better the results were. The Oppo is more in line with that, though not to that level yet. Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.


I know that with a custom Arve curve you can do a measurement in a calibration software program and it tracks PQ just fine, so we say that it is accurate. BUT, I don't think that works like we thought, because it clearly presents all kinds of issues in shadow detail when you compare custom curves to these new tools (and then against a flat panel, which I do with a C7 OLED). I can't imagine ANYONE taking a custom curve over what I do with the Lumagen if I A/B'ed them. The Oppo is closer to the Lumagen than the custom curves, especially when it comes to shadow detail and overall image clarity/brightness. Everyone I've shown this to in person said it was like getting a new projector. I'm WELL aware of how to do custom curves with Arve, I've been doing them as long as anyone. I've even had others make custom curves for me to play devil's advocate (Manni included) and the results are ALWAYS the same. I think in this case seeing is believing.


But, with the Oppo you will have to make adjustments from time to time. This is going to be user dependent because obviously some people are more sensitive to artifacts than others (or even know what artifacts to look for). I can't say how often you'd have to tweak something, but I know in my limited use it is required from time to time. But this is in beta still so I would expect that, plus it is trying to apply universal curves to usage situations. So YMMV will probably always apply.

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post #28612 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 12:48 PM
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Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.
Two weeks ago Manni also posted in doom9 this comment about madVR's tone mapping:

> the result is significantly better than what I've been
> able to get with any custom curves, especially regarding
> saturation in shadow detail and highlights.

Have you had a chance to try madVR's tone mapping yet? Would love to hear your opinion. (I know, it's difficult to try if you don't have an HTPC already up and running.)
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post #28613 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Two weeks ago Manni also posted in doom9 this comment about madVR's tone mapping:

> the result is significantly better than what I've been
> able to get with any custom curves, especially regarding
> saturation in shadow detail and highlights.

Have you had a chance to try madVR's tone mapping yet? Would love to hear your opinion. (I know, it's difficult to try if you don't have an HTPC already up and running.)
No, and I don't think I will unless someone local has it for me to look at. I have zero interest in building a PC rig for this, especially with the performance I get from my Lumagen.


When I compared the Lumagen to the custom curves the biggest things I notice are substantial difference in shadow detail (scene in Revenant is a perfect example for this), intra image contrast (opening shot in Dunkirk is a great example for this) and overall image clarity/brightness (seen with almost any content, but Revenant is another great example for this one).
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post #28614 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:07 PM
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I have zero interest in building a PC rig for this, especially with the performance I get from my Lumagen.
I fully understand.
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post #28615 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:14 PM
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One of the issues with the PQ tracking using calibration software is they are too coarse. When you look at the points they are not the same as when we look at SDR. So if SDR gamma plotting is 5%, 10%, 20%, etc, the same percentages in HDR cover MUCH wider gaps in between. So the part of the signal that makes the most difference in everyday viewing is being represented by a miniscule amount of that plot. Jim Peterson at Lumagen discusses the same issue in his webinar for the Pro if you are using the 1D LUT for grayscale.
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post #28616 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:23 PM
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Updated to the new beta firmware, and everything works perfect. The new HDR of with 300 nits and 2 setings work great with my projector and -11 in Low Lamp Picture is amazing

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post #28617 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there is no objective way to truly say one is better than the other. There is only subjective, and in that case the difference is CLEARLY in favor of the Oppo. Remember, when I brought all this stuff up early on I was talking about the Radiance Pro and how much better the results were. The Oppo is more in line with that, though not to that level yet. Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.


I know that with a custom Arve curve you can do a measurement in a calibration software program and it tracks PQ just fine, so we say that it is accurate. BUT, I don't think that works like we thought, because it clearly presents all kinds of issues in shadow detail when you compare custom curves to these new tools (and then against a flat panel, which I do with a C7 OLED). I can't imagine ANYONE taking a custom curve over what I do with the Lumagen if I A/B'ed them. The Oppo is closer to the Lumagen than the custom curves, especially when it comes to shadow detail and overall image clarity/brightness. Everyone I've shown this to in person said it was like getting a new projector. I'm WELL aware of how to do custom curves with Arve, I've been doing them as long as anyone. I've even had others make custom curves for me to play devil's advocate (Manni included) and the results are ALWAYS the same. I think in this case seeing is believing.


But, with the Oppo you will have to make adjustments from time to time. This is going to be user dependent because obviously some people are more sensitive to artifacts than others (or even know what artifacts to look for). I can't say how often you'd have to tweak something, but I know in my limited use it is required from time to time. But this is in beta still so I would expect that, plus it is trying to apply universal curves to usage situations. So YMMV will probably always apply.

Well stated and thanks for the input.
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post #28618 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:42 PM
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Updated to the new beta firmware, and everything works perfect. The new HDR of with 300 nits and 2 setings work great with my projector and -11 in Low Lamp Picture is amazing

It's great how you can close the aperture for more native contrast. Once they tweak the settings enough that leaves it at minimal adjusting, the OPPO players are going to be sold out.
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post #28619 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:47 PM
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It's great how you can close the aperture for more native contrast. Once they tweak the settings enough that leaves it at minimal adjusting, the OPPO players are going to be sold out.
So far I have tried 8 films and not had to adjust any settings yet. It's perfect for me as it is.

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post #28620 of 31987 Old 01-31-2018, 01:57 PM
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So far I have tried 8 films and not had to adjust any settings yet. It's perfect for me as it is.
Some are pickier than others but it's a very acceptable image. I tried my backup projector with some uhd bd and it still looked great. I'm just lucky that I got the OPPO from the beginning.
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