Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 955 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28621 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there is no objective way to truly say one is better than the other. There is only subjective, and in that case the difference is CLEARLY in favor of the Oppo. Remember, when I brought all this stuff up early on I was talking about the Radiance Pro and how much better the results were. The Oppo is more in line with that, though not to that level yet. Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.


I know that with a custom Arve curve you can do a measurement in a calibration software program and it tracks PQ just fine, so we say that it is accurate. BUT, I don't think that works like we thought, because it clearly presents all kinds of issues in shadow detail when you compare custom curves to these new tools (and then against a flat panel, which I do with a C7 OLED). I can't imagine ANYONE taking a custom curve over what I do with the Lumagen if I A/B'ed them. The Oppo is closer to the Lumagen than the custom curves, especially when it comes to shadow detail and overall image clarity/brightness. Everyone I've shown this to in person said it was like getting a new projector. I'm WELL aware of how to do custom curves with Arve, I've been doing them as long as anyone. I've even had others make custom curves for me to play devil's advocate (Manni included) and the results are ALWAYS the same. I think in this case seeing is believing.


But, with the Oppo you will have to make adjustments from time to time. This is going to be user dependent because obviously some people are more sensitive to artifacts than others (or even know what artifacts to look for). I can't say how often you'd have to tweak something, but I know in my limited use it is required from time to time. But this is in beta still so I would expect that, plus it is trying to apply universal curves to usage situations. So YMMV will probably always apply.
Damn I cant wait for this.. Going to buy an oppos next week...
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post #28622 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:05 PM
 
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Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
........When I compared the Lumagen to the custom curves the biggest things I notice are substantial difference in shadow detail (scene in Revenant is a perfect example for this), intra image contrast (opening shot in Dunkirk is a great example for this) and overall image clarity/brightness (seen with almost any content, but Revenant is another great example for this one).

Your comments actually sound a lot like what I experienced when I first nailed my HarperVision settings on the 5040. I had an Epson 5040 and LS10500 and a JVC RS600 here at the same and I have to say my heart and eyes were trying to choose the 5040 with HarperVision over the RS600 with custom curves, but my brain kept telling me it was heresy to even think that! In the end I sold the RS600 and 5040 in hopes to replicate what I got on the 5040 on the one I kept, the LS10500.


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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
It's great how you can close the aperture for more native contrast. Once they tweak the settings enough that leaves it at minimal adjusting, the OPPO players are going to be sold out.

Yeah I just bought our last one in stock so I can compare my custom curves and settings to what the Oppo will give us. I'm going to have to tell them to order more to keep up with demand! Anyone interested in a UB900 and HDF Vertex or Integral combo?

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post #28623 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there is no objective way to truly say one is better than the other. There is only subjective, and in that case the difference is CLEARLY in favor of the Oppo. Remember, when I brought all this stuff up early on I was talking about the Radiance Pro and how much better the results were. The Oppo is more in line with that, though not to that level yet. Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.


I know that with a custom Arve curve you can do a measurement in a calibration software program and it tracks PQ just fine, so we say that it is accurate. BUT, I don't think that works like we thought, because it clearly presents all kinds of issues in shadow detail when you compare custom curves to these new tools (and then against a flat panel, which I do with a C7 OLED). I can't imagine ANYONE taking a custom curve over what I do with the Lumagen if I A/B'ed them. The Oppo is closer to the Lumagen than the custom curves, especially when it comes to shadow detail and overall image clarity/brightness. Everyone I've shown this to in person said it was like getting a new projector. I'm WELL aware of how to do custom curves with Arve, I've been doing them as long as anyone. I've even had others make custom curves for me to play devil's advocate (Manni included) and the results are ALWAYS the same. I think in this case seeing is believing.


But, with the Oppo you will have to make adjustments from time to time. This is going to be user dependent because obviously some people are more sensitive to artifacts than others (or even know what artifacts to look for). I can't say how often you'd have to tweak something, but I know in my limited use it is required from time to time. But this is in beta still so I would expect that, plus it is trying to apply universal curves to usage situations. So YMMV will probably always apply.
I still haven't had a chance to look at the Radiance or the Oppo, so I can't comment on that, but I have since seen issues in MadVR and I've asked Madshi to make a few changes so that I have a chance to identify exactly what the problem is, i.e. whether it's calibration related or MadVR related. I've also had issues selecting calibrations with MadVR, so for now I am back to custom curves.

In fact I've asked HD Fury to make a few changes to the Vertex JVC Macro implementation and we'll deliver soon a V2.1 with new DCE curves that I've entirely redesigned. I'd like you to test the HDR10-DC1K curve with the Revenant and tell me if it's better or not. It should be significantly better than any of the curves you've tested to date. If you do see the difference I'll make one for your peakY.

For me the Vertex switching automatically to 2-3 curves according to MaxCLL/MaxBrightness is still a better solution, but I hope that Madshi will be able to make the requested changes to that I can get back to diagnose the HDR to SDR conversion in MadVR more precisely and we can get a fully automated solution with MadVR.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Two weeks ago Manni also posted in doom9 this comment about madVR's tone mapping:

> the result is significantly better than what I've been
> able to get with any custom curves, especially regarding
> saturation in shadow detail and highlights.

Have you had a chance to try madVR's tone mapping yet? Would love to hear your opinion. (I know, it's difficult to try if you don't have an HTPC already up and running.)
Sure, I did write that at the time, but since I have also posted that I was experiencing issues and that I needed more time (and changes in MadVR to test properly the origin of the issues).

Ideally, especially until the external command works reliably, we would need:

- MadVR/GPU/OS reporting SDR BT2020 in the HDMI stream, so that the Vertex can select the correct calibration automatically. I know that you can't do this without a custom API but given the current state of the external commands and also the fact that many of us don't have the HTPC as our only source, we will need this at some point.
- MadVR to display the active 3D LUT to know exactly what MadVR is doing behind the scenes when doing the conversion.

I am seeing various issues, especially with highlight compression, and as far as I can see MadVR isn't as adaptive as I thought it was initially. But before reporting anything and wasting your time, I'd like to rule out calibration issues, so I'll resume my tests as soon as we get the active LUT reporting in MadVR. I also had issues with some of the 3D LUTs created with Calman (weird posterization), so I need to investigate that as well.

At the moment, it looks like MaDVR doesn't adapt the curve to the reported MaxCLL, so it works great at one end of the spectrum or the other, but it doesn't work as well for all titles if you want it to improve the low end. Similar to the Oppo apparently.

It would be great to have a way to test MaxCLL/MaxBrightness in profiles, or at least one threshold (possibly more) in the HDR to SDR conversion settings to specify different peakY values depending on content.

The big plus of MadVR (and something that the Radiance can do but not the Oppo) is its ability to provide perfect calibration with its 3D LUTs. Unless/until I can get this to work as it should, the custom curve(s) remain a better option, at least here.

This is why for now I'm back to custom curves (with MadVR in passthrough mode), as it gives me full automation for all titles and all sources.

I'm sure we'll get there in the end, but neither MadVR nor the Oppo seem to have reached that stage yet.

I don't have any time to discuss this at the moment but as my name is mentioned despite the fact that I said I wouldn't post anymore in these threads following the harassment of a couple of weeks ago, I just want to set the record straight

I'll post briefly when the V2.1 of the Vertex JVC Macro is ready, but I'm not going to debate any of this here (no time or inclination), so please don't drag me in this discussion.

When I've been able to rule out possible calibration issues with a 3D LUT indicator, I'll post in the doom9 thread to report any issues or improvement suggestions based on my observations.
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post #28624 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
At the moment, it looks like MaDVR doesn't adapt the curve to the reported MaxCLL
Why would I do that, when I can actually measure the brightest pixel in each frame myself and adjust the tone mapping curve to that (which is what I do)?
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post #28625 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Why would I do that, when I can actually measure the brightest pixel in each frame myself and adjust the tone mapping curve to that (which is what I do)?
I have also discovered MacCLL is not always accurate even when it is reported, so I agree that's a far superior method. Spider-man Homecoming is an example of containing content nearly 4x higher than its reported MaxCLL.

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post #28626 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:39 PM
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Why would I do that, when I can actually measure the brightest pixel in each frame myself and adjust the tone mapping curve to that (which is what I do)?
I also thought that you would be doing this when I initially tested, but I can't get MadVR to improve the low end for low nits titles AND not crush the highlights for high nits titles with a single peakY value.

If I use 200-300, I get better low end for 1100nits tiles, but the compression in the highlights is unacceptable for titles with a content going significantly above 1100nits (Mad Max, Pacific Rim, The Shallows, etc).

If I use 400 or more, I get better highlights resolution for high nits titles but there is no improvement in the low end of 1000nits titles compared to a good 4000nits custom curve.

Again, I need to do more tests, I was only correcting your statement as you were only quoting my initial reaction and not the reservations I've expressed since.

I also have issues with calibration so I'd like to rule these out before taking your time with reports.

I have very little time at the moment, so until I can do proper tests with enough information from MadVR about what it's doing I've parked it.

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post #28627 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:54 PM
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Can someone please straighten my brain out please?

Ok...I’m confused on HDR Gamma D vs SDR bt2020...up until a couple weeks ago I didn’t even realize the custom curves are actually SDR and even Chad creates SDR curves BUT apparently Gamma D is a native HDR curve...2 questions:

1) why is Gamma D unable to be modified into a decent hdr curve?
2) can someone not create a functional hdr curve from scratch instead of reverting to sdr?

What am I missing here? Thanks...I’m preparing to get flamed
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post #28628 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 03:56 PM
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Manni
I have valued your posts and efforts to improve our JVC projectors. You are one of several here who have provided an ongoing education on how things work (or don't) and find ways to improve our viewing experience.

I hope you will continue your efforts HERE in the future.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I still haven't had a chance to look at the Radiance or the Oppo, so I can't comment on that, but I have since seen issues in MadVR and I've asked Madshi to make a few changes so that I have a chance to identify exactly what the problem is, i.e. whether it's calibration related or MadVR related. I've also had issues selecting calibrations with MadVR, so for now I am back to custom curves.

In fact I've asked HD Fury to make a few changes to the Vertex JVC Macro implementation and we'll deliver soon a V2.1 with new DCE curves that I've entirely redesigned. I'd like you to test the HDR10-DC1K curve with the Revenant and tell me if it's better or not. It should be significantly better than any of the curves you've tested to date. If you do see the difference I'll make one for your peakY.

For me the Vertex switching automatically to 2-3 curves according to MaxCLL/MaxBrightness is still a better solution, but I hope that Madshi will be able to make the requested changes to that I can get back to diagnose the HDR to SDR conversion in MadVR more precisely and we can get a fully automated solution with MadVR.



Sure, I did write that at the time, but since I have also posted that I was experiencing issues and that I needed more time (and changes in MadVR to test properly the origin of the issues).

Ideally, especially until the external command works reliably, we would need:

- MadVR/GPU/OS reporting SDR BT2020 in the HDMI stream, so that the Vertex can select the correct calibration automatically. I know that you can't do this without a custom API but given the current state of the external commands and also the fact that many of us don't have the HTPC as our only source, we will need this at some point.
- MadVR to display the active 3D LUT to know exactly what MadVR is doing behind the scenes when doing the conversion.

I am seeing various issues, especially with highlight compression, and as far as I can see MadVR isn't as adaptive as I thought it was initially. But before reporting anything and wasting your time, I'd like to rule out calibration issues, so I'll resume my tests as soon as we get the active LUT reporting in MadVR. I also had issues with some of the 3D LUTs created with Calman (weird posterization), so I need to investigate that as well.

At the moment, it looks like MaDVR doesn't adapt the curve to the reported MaxCLL, so it works great at one end of the spectrum or the other, but it doesn't work as well for all titles if you want it to improve the low end. Similar to the Oppo apparently.

It would be great to have a way to test MaxCLL/MaxBrightness in profiles, or at least one threshold (possibly more) in the HDR to SDR conversion settings to specify different peakY values depending on content.

The big plus of MadVR (and something that the Radiance can do but not the Oppo) is its ability to provide perfect calibration with its 3D LUTs. Unless/until I can get this to work as it should, the custom curve(s) remain a better option, at least here.

This is why for now I'm back to custom curves (with MadVR in passthrough mode), as it gives me full automation for all titles and all sources.

I'm sure we'll get there in the end, but neither MadVR nor the Oppo seem to have reached that stage yet.

I don't have any time to discuss this at the moment but as my name is mentioned despite the fact that I said I wouldn't post anymore in these threads following the harassment of a couple of weeks ago, I just want to set the record straight

I'll post briefly when the V2.1 of the Vertex JVC Macro is ready, but I'm not going to debate any of this here (no time or inclination), so please don't drag me in this discussion.

When I've been able to rule out possible calibration issues with a 3D LUT indicator, I'll post in the doom9 thread to report any issues or improvement suggestions based on my observations.
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post #28629 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Ok...I’m confused on HDR Gamma D vs SDR bt2020...up until a couple weeks ago I didn’t even realize the custom curves are actually SDR and even Chad creates SDR curves BUT apparently Gamma D is a native HDR curve...2 questions:

1) why is Gamma D unable to be modified into a decent hdr curve?
2) can someone not create a functional hdr curve from scratch instead of reverting to sdr?

What am I missing here? Thanks...I’m preparing to get flamed
The parameters in JVC's gamma menu won't do what is needed to get a good tone map out of them.

Nothing is reverted to SDR per se, it is just a different tone map. There is no such thing as HDR to SDR, it is just a tone map that is sent to the projector without the HDR flag so that the projector doesn't try to apply its own processing. So you are still watching HDR content, it is just tone mapped down to accommodate the lower brightness output of the projector.

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post #28630 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:12 PM
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I just purchased a UB900 to use with my RS600 and now it appears the OPPO is the way to go. Can someone tell me what I would gain by buying the OPPO. ? Is there anything the UB900 does better at this point?
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post #28631 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The parameters in JVC's gamma menu won't do what is needed to get a good tone map out of them.

Nothing is reverted to SDR per se, it is just a different tone map. There is no such thing as HDR to SDR, it is just a tone map that is sent to the projector without the HDR flag so that the projector doesn't try to apply its own processing. So you are still watching HDR content, it is just tone mapped down to accommodate the lower brightness output of the projector.
Ok, thanks Kris...so if I am understanding correctly, it’s not a question of hdr vs sdr, it’s a question of where the tone mapping is being done as all the content in 4K uhd is hdr...if the tone mapping is done in the player (ie. Oppo, Panasonic) or via a custom Arve curve on the pj, why are some folks referring to it as SDR? What should we refer to it as? HDR?

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post #28632 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Ok, thanks Kris...so if I am understanding correctly, it’s not a question of hdr vs sdr, it’s a question of where the tone mapping is being done as all the content in 4K uhd is hdr...if the tone mapping is done in the player (ie. Oppo, Panasonic) or via a custom Arve curve on the pj, why are some folks referring to it as SDR? What should we refer to it as? HDR?
You could just call it a tone map. SDR is just the projector doesn't engage its own processing or limit what you can do (dynamic iris and such).
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post #28633 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:30 PM
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I really appreciate your explanation.

My pocketbook does not, but that's not your problem.

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there is no objective way to truly say one is better than the other. There is only subjective, and in that case the difference is CLEARLY in favor of the Oppo. Remember, when I brought all this stuff up early on I was talking about the Radiance Pro and how much better the results were. The Oppo is more in line with that, though not to that level yet. Manni was skeptical until he saw something that performs in a similar manner and said he's done with custom curves for good.


I know that with a custom Arve curve you can do a measurement in a calibration software program and it tracks PQ just fine, so we say that it is accurate. BUT, I don't think that works like we thought, because it clearly presents all kinds of issues in shadow detail when you compare custom curves to these new tools (and then against a flat panel, which I do with a C7 OLED). I can't imagine ANYONE taking a custom curve over what I do with the Lumagen if I A/B'ed them. The Oppo is closer to the Lumagen than the custom curves, especially when it comes to shadow detail and overall image clarity/brightness. Everyone I've shown this to in person said it was like getting a new projector. I'm WELL aware of how to do custom curves with Arve, I've been doing them as long as anyone. I've even had others make custom curves for me to play devil's advocate (Manni included) and the results are ALWAYS the same. I think in this case seeing is believing.


But, with the Oppo you will have to make adjustments from time to time. This is going to be user dependent because obviously some people are more sensitive to artifacts than others (or even know what artifacts to look for). I can't say how often you'd have to tweak something, but I know in my limited use it is required from time to time. But this is in beta still so I would expect that, plus it is trying to apply universal curves to usage situations. So YMMV will probably always apply.
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One of the issues with the PQ tracking using calibration software is they are too coarse. When you look at the points they are not the same as when we look at SDR. So if SDR gamma plotting is 5%, 10%, 20%, etc, the same percentages in HDR cover MUCH wider gaps in between. So the part of the signal that makes the most difference in everyday viewing is being represented by a miniscule amount of that plot. Jim Peterson at Lumagen discusses the same issue in his webinar for the Pro if you are using the 1D LUT for grayscale.
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post #28634 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:36 PM
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Manni, thanks for updating us on your latest findings. Always appreciated.

Spoiler!
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post #28635 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The parameters in JVC's gamma menu won't do what is needed to get a good tone map out of them.

Nothing is reverted to SDR per se, it is just a different tone map. There is no such thing as HDR to SDR, it is just a tone map that is sent to the projector without the HDR flag so that the projector doesn't try to apply its own processing. So you are still watching HDR content, it is just tone mapped down to accommodate the lower brightness output of the projector.
Correct, but just to clarify, there is no HDR flag. The content is still HDR, but none of the HDR metadata is sent to the projector to prevent it from switching to its HDR mode/gamma automatically. The only thing that tells the display that it's dealing with HDR content is the HDR metadata. If you don't sent it, the display thinks it's displaying SDR even if exactly the same content is sent.

I know you know the rest, but I'm going to try to explain for others.

What people don't understand is that when we say HDR metadata, it doesn't mean HDR content, or an HDR layer on top of an SDR layer. On UHD Bluray, there is no SDR layer. There is an HDR10 mandatory layer, and optionally a DV layer or soon an HDR10+ layer (let's ignore that for now). So you have an HDR10 mandatory layer, and HDR metadata that describes the way this HDR10 layer was created, and (theoretically) which kind of data it contains. It's metadata, not data. If you don't send the HDR metadata, you are still sending the full HDR10 layer, and it's that HDR layer that is displayed, either using a custom curve or gamma D (in our projectors). If you use an SDR calibration to display it, it won't be displayed properly, which proves that it's still HDR content.

When doing and HDR to SDR conversion, whether in the source or in the display, we are changing the location of the conversion, but it's not necessarily the same kind of conversion:

- When we use the UB900 HDR to SDR BT2020 conversion, the source is assuming an SDR display (i.e. a non-HDR-capable display), so it's tone mapping to about 100nits peakY. It is therefore NOT using all the potential brightness in the PJ, for those who can reach significantly above that. This means that although it's doing a decent job, it's NOT using the whole dynamic range of the display (the highlights are far more compressed). The advantage is better black levels and better native contrast (if we close the iris to get 100nits peakY), but the downside is less dynamic range. You are NOT watching HDR with this conversion, and it is INFERIOR to what a well-designed custom curve can provide, unless your display has significantly less than 100nits peak brightness.
- When we use MadVR or the Oppo new f/w or the Radiance Pro to do the HDR to SDR conversion, we are telling the source how bright the display can be, and the source is expecting the content to be displayed on an HDR-capable display, i.e. a display able to reach far more than 100nits (if we're not talking about projectors). So in that case, the HDR to SDR conversion, despite the fact that it's done in the source, is using the same range (whole native brightness) the display is capable of, which means that it's still displaying HDR content and it will look just as HDR (if well done) as it would if the display was in HDR mode. The downside is that if we use the iris fully open, the black floor goes up (and the native contrast goes down). But this is not an issue if you're willing to use the DI, as you then get a far better overall contrast, even if the black floor is slightly raised.

In both these cases, because the source is sending the content using a power gamma and not an ST2084 gamma, we have to use an SDR calibration, but the content displayed is still HDR!

The HUGE advantage for projectors of doing the HDR to SDR conversion in the source when the source is aware that the display is HDR capable, is that we can calibrate accurately and automatically to a known standard, in that case SDR BT2020 power gamma 2.4. This is NOT possible to do at this stage with HDR, simply because there is no HDR standard for projectors (bar ST2390 which isn't supported by all software yet).

So calibrating the display to SDR BT-2020 and asking the source to do the conversion while being aware that it can send "SDR" content that goes far above 100nits (i.e. HDR content) is what makes a whole difference. When the source is able to adapt the ST2390 curve to the content dynamically, the results are even better.

In other words, when we say "HDR", we mean content with a high dynamic range, i.e. using (usually) more than 0-100nits encoded with an ST-2084 gamma.

But when we say "SDR", we can mean two things: 1) legacy content encoded with a standard dynamic range and a power gamma or BT1886 gamma, or 2) HDR content converted to a power gamma 2.4, but still covering a high dynamic range (and ideally a WCG, hence BT2020).

It's important to make this distinction, otherwise it's not possible to understand the difference between the HDR to SDR conversion of the UB900 (type 1) and the HDR to SDR conversion from MadVR, new Oppo f/w or Radiance Pro (type 2).

I know it's enough to do most people's head in, but unfortunately that's what we have to deal with in these early days of HDR implementation.

And now I'm really out...

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post #28636 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 05:38 PM
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Great explanation Manni and much appreciated!
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post #28637 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Correct, but just to clarify, there is no HDR flag. The content is still HDR, but none of the HDR metadata is sent to the projector to prevent it from switching to its HDR mode/gamma automatically. The only thing that tells the display that it's dealing with HDR content is the HDR metadata. If you don't sent it, the display thinks it's displaying SDR even if exactly the same content is sent.

I know you know the rest, but I'm going to try to explain for others.

What people don't understand is that when we say HDR metadata, it doesn't mean HDR content, or an HDR layer on top of an SDR layer. On UHD Bluray, there is no SDR layer. There is an HDR10 mandatory layer, and optionally a DV layer or soon an HDR10+ layer (let's ignore that for now). So you have an HDR10 mandatory layer, and HDR metadata that describes the way this HDR10 layer was created, and (theoretically) which kind of data it contains. It's metadata, not data. If you don't send the HDR metadata, you are still sending the full HDR10 layer, and it's that HDR layer that is displayed, either using a custom curve or gamma D (in our projectors). If you use an SDR calibration to display it, it won't be displayed properly, which proves that it's still HDR content.

When doing and HDR to SDR conversion, whether in the source or in the display, we are changing the location of the conversion, but it's not necessarily the same kind of conversion:

- When we use the UB900 HDR to SDR BT2020 conversion, the source is assuming an SDR display (i.e. a non-HDR-capable display), so it's tone mapping to about 100nits peakY. It is therefore NOT using all the potential brightness in the PJ, for those who can reach significantly above that. This means that although it's doing a decent job, it's NOT using the whole dynamic range of the display (the highlights are far more compressed). The advantage is better black levels and better native contrast (if we close the iris to get 100nits peakY), but the downside is less dynamic range. You are NOT watching HDR with this conversion, and it is INFERIOR to what a well-designed custom curve can provide, unless your display has significantly less than 100nits peak brightness.
- When we use MadVR or the Oppo new f/w or the Radiance Pro to do the HDR to SDR conversion, we are telling the source how bright the display can be, and the source is expecting the content to be displayed on an HDR-capable display, i.e. a display able to reach far more than 100nits (if we're not talking about projectors). So in that case, the HDR to SDR conversion, despite the fact that it's done in the source, is using the same range (whole native brightness) the display is capable of, which means that it's still displaying HDR content and it will look just as HDR (if well done) as it would if the display was in HDR mode. The downside is that if we use the iris fully open, the black floor goes up (and the native contrast goes down). But this is not an issue if you're willing to use the DI, as you then get a far better overall contrast, even if the black floor is slightly raised.

In both these cases, because the source is sending the content using a power gamma and not an ST2084 gamma, we have to use an SDR calibration, but the content displayed is still HDR!

The HUGE advantage for projectors of doing the HDR to SDR conversion in the source when the source is aware that the display is HDR capable, is that we can calibrate accurately and automatically to a known standard, in that case SDR BT2020 power gamma 2.4. This is NOT possible to do at this stage with HDR, simply because there is no HDR standard for projectors (bar ST2390 which isn't supported by all software yet).

So calibrating the display to SDR BT-2020 and asking the source to do the conversion while being aware that it can send "SDR" content that goes far above 100nits (i.e. HDR content) is what makes a whole difference. When the source is able to adapt the ST2390 curve to the content dynamically, the results are even better.

In other words, when we say "HDR", we mean content with a high dynamic range, i.e. using (usually) more than 0-100nits encoded with an ST-2084 gamma.

But when we say "SDR", we can mean two things: 1) legacy content encoded with a standard dynamic range and a power gamma or BT1886 gamma, or 2) HDR content converted to a power gamma 2.4, but still covering a high dynamic range (and ideally a WCG, hence BT2020).

It's important to make this distinction, otherwise it's not possible to understand the difference between the HDR to SDR conversion of the UB900 (type 1) and the HDR to SDR conversion from MadVR, new Oppo f/w or Radiance Pro (type 2).

I know it's enough to do most people's head in, but unfortunately that's what we have to deal with in these early days of HDR implementation.

And now I'm really out...
WOW! Thanks! Had to read it about 9 times but it’s starting to sink in! The terminology is confusing, to say the least...thanks again!

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The parameters in JVC's gamma menu won't do what is needed to get a good tone map out of them.



Nothing is reverted to SDR per se, it is just a different tone map. There is no such thing as HDR to SDR, it is just a tone map that is sent to the projector without the HDR flag so that the projector doesn't try to apply its own processing. So you are still watching HDR content, it is just tone mapped down to accommodate the lower brightness output of the projector.

Yes, this is exactly why I always made it a point to call it "HDR on/in SDR" when trying to explain what I did on the Epsons and now what's done here and on the Sonys.

Amazing info Kris and Manni01!!!
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post #28639 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 06:33 PM
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In fact I've asked HD Fury to make a few changes to the Vertex JVC Macro implementation and we'll deliver soon a V2.1 with new DCE curves that I've entirely redesigned. I'd like you to test the HDR10-DC1K curve with the Revenant and tell me if it's better or not. It should be significantly better than any of the curves you've tested to date. If you do see the difference I'll make one for your peakY.
Looked at Manni's new curve and it has improved significantly in the shadow detail department. Looks great with my test clip in The Revenant. Still lacks a bit of the overall image pop I see from the Lumagen, but this was a generic curve and not designed specifically for my setup. Gonna work with Manni to develop one specifically for my setup and see what can be achieved.
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post #28640 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I know it's enough to do most people's head in, but unfortunately that's what we have to deal with in these early days of HDR implementation.

And now I'm really out...
Not only was that one heck of an explanation, but you get an A+ for superb grammar as well.
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post #28641 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 07:26 PM
 
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No ... I have zero interest in building a PC rig for this...
I'm in a similar situation... my MacPro setup is for studio post production, so all of my RAIDs and data archives are HFS+ volumes hosted off USB 2.0, USB 3.0 or ATTO SAS R680 and H680 PCIe cards. I use a nVideo GTX980Ti for connecting the rig with the projection system via a DisplayPort -> HDMI cable rated for full 4K.

I have dabbled with Plex for hosting NAS type service for access around the home, but I don't have a dedicated NAS for hosting media data to my home network.

I have the ability to run Win 10 from a internal SSD volume for gaming and possibly for hosting a windows based HTPC. If I explore a windows based HTPC solution with my MacPro, I'm not yet sure how I would need to host any media files so they can be accessed by external devices like the OPPO, Roku, etc. I am able to use a windows software media player to access my HFS+ volumes, so I don't think I need to create a specific NTFS volume to host movies or music for MadVR + Player.

Can the OPPO see volumes under windows that are not served up as a NAS? I'll soon know for myself, but was curious.

If I do end up needing to run a NAS solution under windows, I'd welcome any suggestions that go beyond Plex. When I say go beyond, Plex limits what it will load from a media volume to those file formats it can read. So Plex does not show any DVD, HD or UHD folder structures for play back by devices capable of playing back of BDMV folder for instance.

As an aside, given the delay in getting keys for backing up the latest BD or UHD titles, how do HTPC users avoid needing an external BD player for those titles until a volume key is available? I assume it's a windows based media player that can read and play back directly from the disc... but please confirm.

Thanks in advance.
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post #28642 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 07:47 PM
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I watched the Batman Begins UHD disc tonight in my Oppo. This title looked better in Mode 2 than Mode 4. Really brought out the highlights in the night scenes which is most of the movie. I kept Target Luminance at 300.

For reference, the HDR metadata for this title is:

Max Display Luminance 4000
Min Display Luminance 0.005
MaxCLL 992
MaxFALL 226

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post #28643 of 31899 Old 01-31-2018, 11:10 PM
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I've asked HD Fury to make a few changes to the Vertex JVC Macro implementation and we'll deliver soon a V2.1 with new DCE curves that I've entirely redesigned.

I'll post briefly when the V2.1 of the Vertex JVC Macro is ready.
@Manni01

Looking forward to v2.1 and new DCE curves. No pressure...

Seriously, in no hurry as I'm just getting around to testing the new Oppo Beta FW and also a new Zappiti One 4K HDR hooked to it on HDMI in.
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post #28644 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 01:17 AM
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I also thought that you would be doing this when I initially tested, but I can't get MadVR to improve the low end for low nits titles AND not crush the highlights for high nits titles with a single peakY value.

If I use 200-300, I get better low end for 1100nits tiles, but the compression in the highlights is unacceptable for titles with a content going significantly above 1100nits (Mad Max, Pacific Rim, The Shallows, etc).

If I use 400 or more, I get better highlights resolution for high nits titles but there is no improvement in the low end of 1000nits titles compared to a good 4000nits custom curve.
madVR's tone mapping works like this: If you actually tell madVR the proper peak Nits value that you measure your display as, all the pixels in the lower Nits range (ideally from 0-100 Nits) are displayed absolutely perfectly, in the same way a true 10,000 Nits display would show them. Tone mapping only starts somewhere above this lower Nits range. However, we can't simply jump abruptly from 0 compression to strong compression, so the tone mapping curve needs to start smoothly, otherwise the image would get a somewhat unnatural clipped look. Practically, if you set madVR's peak luminance value to 200 Nits, the tone mapping curve starts compressing pixels at 23 Nits. If you set madVR's peak luminance value to 400 nits, the tone mapping curve starts compressing at 75 Nits.

Of course projectors are rather dim, compared to flat panel displays. So if you actually tell madVR the proper Nits value you measured, tone mapping will be very heavily handed, and you'll lose a lot of highlight detail. So naturally, you'll want to pretend that your projector has higher peak luminance capability than it really has. If you do that, tone mapping will relax a little, but the overall image (including the low end range!) will be darker than the UHD Blu-Ray disc encoding asks for.

This probably explains why you're not happy with either the 200 Nits nor 400 Nits setting? I suppose what you really want/need is some tricky tone mapping curve which doesn't compress highlights as much as it mathematically should, while at the same time making sure that the lower end is reproduced exactly as the UHD disc asks for? We're approaching the impossible here: Since your projector is so dim, a lot of compression is needed. So where should we compress? If you enter the measured Nits value, the top end if heavily compressed. You don't like that. If you enter a much higher than measured Nits value, the bottom end becomes too dark (= compressed in a sense). You don't like that. So if you don't like compression at the top end and not at the bottom end, where should be compress instead? I suppose we could try making the tone mapping curve flatter, so that it compresses more strongly in the mid range and less strongly in the top range, but doing that would probably take some life out of the picture...

Anyway, here's a quick test suggestion: madVR's "contrast" slider is a linear light S curve gamma modification. So you could try to enable gamma processing, use 400 Nits to get less compression, and then use the contrast slider to "help" the lower end. Maybe that's more to your liking? Doing it this way will move away from the scientific approach of madVR's tone mapping curve, though. But I suppose lying to madVR by entering a higher than measured peak Nits value already gets rid of the science, anyway...
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post #28645 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR's tone mapping works like this: If you actually tell madVR the proper peak Nits value that you measure your display as, all the pixels in the lower Nits range (ideally from 0-100 Nits) are displayed absolutely perfectly, in the same way a true 10,000 Nits display would show them. Tone mapping only starts somewhere above this lower Nits range. However, we can't simply jump abruptly from 0 compression to strong compression, so the tone mapping curve needs to start smoothly, otherwise the image would get a somewhat unnatural clipped look. Practically, if you set madVR's peak luminance value to 200 Nits, the tone mapping curve starts compressing pixels at 23 Nits. If you set madVR's peak luminance value to 400 nits, the tone mapping curve starts compressing at 75 Nits.

Of course projectors are rather dim, compared to flat panel displays. So if you actually tell madVR the proper Nits value you measured, tone mapping will be very heavily handed, and you'll lose a lot of highlight detail. So naturally, you'll want to pretend that your projector has higher peak luminance capability than it really has. If you do that, tone mapping will relax a little, but the overall image (including the low end range!) will be darker than the UHD Blu-Ray disc encoding asks for.

This probably explains why you're not happy with either the 200 Nits nor 400 Nits setting? I suppose what you really want/need is some tricky tone mapping curve which doesn't compress highlights as much as it mathematically should, while at the same time making sure that the lower end is reproduced exactly as the UHD disc asks for? We're approaching the impossible here: Since your projector is so dim, a lot of compression is needed. So where should we compress? If you enter the measured Nits value, the top end if heavily compressed. You don't like that. If you enter a much higher than measured Nits value, the bottom end becomes too dark (= compressed in a sense). You don't like that. So if you don't like compression at the top end and not at the bottom end, where should be compress instead? I suppose we could try making the tone mapping curve flatter, so that it compresses more strongly in the mid range and less strongly in the top range, but doing that would probably take some life out of the picture...

Anyway, here's a quick test suggestion: madVR's "contrast" slider is a linear light S curve gamma modification. So you could try to enable gamma processing, use 400 Nits to get less compression, and then use the contrast slider to "help" the lower end. Maybe that's more to your liking? Doing it this way will move away from the scientific approach of madVR's tone mapping curve, though. But I suppose lying to madVR by entering a higher than measured peak Nits value already gets rid of the science, anyway...
I understand all this, and this is why I'm saying that MadVR isn't as adaptive as it could/should be to get best results depending on the content for each title, at least with our projectors.

My display has 120nits PeakY (actual) in low lamp with 1750 hours on. I quickly saw that using the actual peakY was compressing too much, this is when I started raising the value. But then it seems impossible to find a single value that provides bright enough picture for 1000-1100nits titles (in a way that addresses the issue pointed by Kris Deering in titles such as The Revenant) and still resolve enough highlights that you don't clip visible information in titles with content going significantly above 1100nits.

What I can do with custom curves is use the equivalent of a 200nits value in MadVR for 1000-1100nits titles (titles with no content above 1100nits), and the equivalent of a 400nits+ value in MadVR for 4000nits titles (titles with content above 1100nits). The Vertex switches automatically between these two curves (in fact I'm playing with three curves at the moment, although I think two are probably enough).

My initial assumption was that MadVR would look at the content, and adjust the room left for the highlights according to said content. We don't need as much room for highlights with content under 1100nits, so we can ramp up the brightness of the curve to improve the low end and keep less room for highlights.

I have no interests in "tricks". The custom curves are mostly based on BT2390, they are just not adaptable the way MadVR could/should be if it was looking for MaxCLL and adjusting the value for PeakY accordingly, as it seems the current adaptive way based on the frame analysis isn't able to address the above issue..

I guess you can't do this on a frame by frame basis without causing significant jumps in picture brightness because the content wasn't mastered that way (it's not HDR10+ or DV), but you can get a fairly accurate estimate of the actual MaxCLL, if using MaxBrightness to first identify whether the title has valid metadata or not, then determine whether it could have content above 1100nits or not, then use MaxCLL to test again if the metadata is valid or not, then if it's valid get an indication of the content. If there is any uncertainty on the accuracy of the metadata, I fall back on 4000nits to be on the safe side.

This is the latest automatic algo I've asked HD Fury to implement in the Vertex for the V2.1 of the JVC Macro feature (HDR10-Main is a curve clipping at 4000nits, HDR10-Optional is a curve clipping at 1100nits with a higher diffuse white):

IF HDR10_Max_Brightness EQUALS 0 THEN HDR10-Main ELSE ** invalid metadata so select 4000nits curve
IF HDR10_Max_Brightness BELOW OR EQUALS 1100 THEN HDR10-Optional ELSE ** in that case we know the content can't be above 1100nits, so we select the 1100nits curve even if the maxCLL is invalid (it often is equal to 0)
IF HDR10_Max_CLL EQUALS 0 THEN HDR10-Main ELSE ** (title is a 4000nits curve with invalid MaxCLL, so I select the 4000nits curve to be safe)
IF HDR10_Max_CLL BELOW OR EQUALS 1100 THEN HDR10-Optional ELSE HDR10-Main ** (otherwise I use MaxCLL to select the 1100nits or 4000nits curve).

With the custom tabs, I can use the JVC max of three custom curves and I select (at the moment) a curve according to MaxCLL that clips at 1100nits, 2200nits or 4000nits following the algo above but testing MaxCLL for 2200nits as well. If you prefer, you could do 500nits, 1200nits and 4000nits as the MaxCLL value has little bearing with the MaxBrightness value, but with the Vertex the algo would be less accurate as there are a limited amount of lines and conditions available in the custom mode so I prefer to stick to values used in the mastering metadata info, even if it's not 100% accurate. I think the algo above will be 99% of the time a best case scenario.

This is why I'm suggesting to add ways to test for MaxBrighness and MaxCLL in profiles in MadVR, or preferably ways to specify at least one threshold value (preferably two) so that MadVR can adjust the internal value of PeakY according to the actual MaxCLL of each title (using algo above or similar), or let us specify the PeakY value we want to apply according to content if you can't find an algo to extrapolate this for projectors from the actual peakY (which would be, of course, the ideal way to implement this).

For example, if the algo above (or similar) was implemented in MadVR and we had the possibility to specify a PeakY value for 1100nits and 4000nits content, I would specify for my actual peakY of 120 a value of 200nits for 1100nits content and 450 (possibly more) for titles with content up to 4000nits (or above). This would give a similar result to what I can get at the moment with custom curves, using the Vertex to select automatically the correct calibration according to content. Ideally, we would want to support a few more MaxCLL threshold, such as 500nits and 2200nits.

Again, I've parked my tests in MadVR at the moment due to lack of time. MadVR works great in passthrough mode with 2/3 custom curves and the Vertex to switch automatically between the curves according to the actual content, not only with the HTPC as a source but with any other source and any other calibration (3D, x.v.color, HLG BT2020, HLG REC709, SDR film, SDR TV, many of which are not supported by MadVR/LAV). I want to first establish that the calibration is correct and assess whether some of the issues I'm seeing are calibration related or MadVR related before fine-tuning the peakY value I need according to content and providing you with a detailed report. The earlier you find the time to implement this, the faster I can resume my tests and resume this discussion with you, probably in the doom9 thread rather than here as most of it isn't JVC specific (and probably too technical and boring for most of the readers of this thread).

I have run a full autocal of my PJ a couple of days ago to calibrate my SDR Rec-709, SDR BT2020 and HDR10 baselines and I've created new 3D LUTs (rec-709 profile which I use to also create PAL and NTSC LUT and SDR BT2020 profile which I use to also create a DCI-P3 LUT). I'm only waiting for MadVR to report the active 3D LUT in the OSD to resume my testing.

By the way, for those who were wondering about autocal with the BT-2020NF colour profile, you can use standard instead of reference and the calibration will be accurate. You can't use the BT2020-NF profile without running an autocal without the filter enabled at the iris/lamp mode you will be using. The autocal you have made with reference and BT2020F won't be accurate when you select BT2020-NF and it will cause gamma and color shifts. You will also need to correct the errors from your Spyder in the BT2020NF profile, same as with the BT2020F profile.

Madshi I would appreciate if we don't start a long discussion here and now. As I said, I need to resume testing once I've ruled out any potential issue with calibration in MadVR. Once I'm 100% sure that the correct 3D LUT is applied, I'll provide more feedback and we can move on.
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post #28646 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 03:16 AM
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IMHO the best (most scientific) approach would be to tell madVR the true measurement of your display's peak Y value, and then leave the rest in madVR's hands. That's the only way madVR even has a chance to reproduce the important low end (e.g. 0-25 Nits) faithfully. If that doesn't produce good enough results right now, let's work together on improving that.

BTW, yes, adjusting tone mapping to the measured peakY frame by frame produces flickering, that's why I'm using a rolling average.
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post #28647 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
IMHO the best (most scientific) approach would be to tell madVR the true measurement of your display's peak Y value, and then leave the rest in madVR's hands. That's the only way madVR even has a chance to reproduce the important low end (e.g. 0-25 Nits) faithfully. If that doesn't produce good enough results right now, let's work together on improving that.

BTW, yes, adjusting tone mapping to the measured peakY frame by frame produces flickering, that's why I'm using a rolling average.
Agreed, but that produces unacceptable clipping even for 1100nits titles, so not an option in practice.

We can't be 100% scientific with projectors, there are too many variables and no satisfying standard.

Looking forward to doing more testing when you have the time to implement the active 3D LUT report in the OSD.

If there is any way you could get your hand on a custom API allowing you to get the GPU/OS to report the correct content info in the HDMI stream (especially SDR rec-709 or SDR BT2020), this would be greatly useful to automate the calibration changes so that the optimal baseline calibration is always selected (SDR Rec-709 or SDR BT-2020). Even if you manage to fix the external command in MadVR, we will have to use IP control (this is what Arve's tool uses) which means that we won't be able to use iRule, Roomie and other apps also using IP to control the PJ as it will conflict with it. The Vertex uses RS-232, so it works perfectly in parallel with iRule, Roomie etc. I know it's a niche problem but for us projector owners with dedicated rooms it's a very important point.

JVC Autocal Software V11 Calibration for 2019 Models
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
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post #28648 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Looked at Manni's new curve and it has improved significantly in the shadow detail department. Looks great with my test clip in The Revenant. Still lacks a bit of the overall image pop I see from the Lumagen, but this was a generic curve and not designed specifically for my setup. Gonna work with Manni to develop one specifically for my setup and see what can be achieved.
Good to hear. I've emailed you a set of three curves clipping at 1100nits, 2200nits and 4000nits tuned to your peakY and bbo. Please let us know how close they are to what you see with the Oppo/Radiance (I wish I could see this myself!).

These are not the curves I use (my current peakY is 120nits) but they are similar and the DCE curves included in the V2.1 of the Vertex JVC Macro will be based on a similar curve too. This will allow selecting the correct curve automatically based on MaxBrightness/MaxCLL as detailed in the algo above, hence a true plug and play solution for the user (once the vertex is configured) provided you can get 107nits or close. Otherwise proper custom curves will still be needed.
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JVC Autocal Software V11 Calibration for 2019 Models
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders

Last edited by Manni01; 02-01-2018 at 03:46 AM.
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post #28649 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Correct, but just to clarify, there is no HDR flag. The content is still HDR, but none of the HDR metadata is sent to the projector to prevent it from switching to its HDR mode/gamma automatically. The only thing that tells the display that it's dealing with HDR content is the HDR metadata. If you don't sent it, the display thinks it's displaying SDR even if exactly the same content is sent.

I know you know the rest, but I'm going to try to explain for others.

What people don't understand is that when we say HDR metadata, it doesn't mean HDR content, or an HDR layer on top of an SDR layer. On UHD Bluray, there is no SDR layer. There is an HDR10 mandatory layer, and optionally a DV layer or soon an HDR10+ layer (let's ignore that for now). So you have an HDR10 mandatory layer, and HDR metadata that describes the way this HDR10 layer was created, and (theoretically) which kind of data it contains. It's metadata, not data. If you don't send the HDR metadata, you are still sending the full HDR10 layer, and it's that HDR layer that is displayed, either using a custom curve or gamma D (in our projectors). If you use an SDR calibration to display it, it won't be displayed properly, which proves that it's still HDR content.

When doing and HDR to SDR conversion, whether in the source or in the display, we are changing the location of the conversion, but it's not necessarily the same kind of conversion:

- When we use the UB900 HDR to SDR BT2020 conversion, the source is assuming an SDR display (i.e. a non-HDR-capable display), so it's tone mapping to about 100nits peakY. It is therefore NOT using all the potential brightness in the PJ, for those who can reach significantly above that. This means that although it's doing a decent job, it's NOT using the whole dynamic range of the display (the highlights are far more compressed). The advantage is better black levels and better native contrast (if we close the iris to get 100nits peakY), but the downside is less dynamic range. You are NOT watching HDR with this conversion, and it is INFERIOR to what a well-designed custom curve can provide, unless your display has significantly less than 100nits peak brightness.
- When we use MadVR or the Oppo new f/w or the Radiance Pro to do the HDR to SDR conversion, we are telling the source how bright the display can be, and the source is expecting the content to be displayed on an HDR-capable display, i.e. a display able to reach far more than 100nits (if we're not talking about projectors). So in that case, the HDR to SDR conversion, despite the fact that it's done in the source, is using the same range (whole native brightness) the display is capable of, which means that it's still displaying HDR content and it will look just as HDR (if well done) as it would if the display was in HDR mode. The downside is that if we use the iris fully open, the black floor goes up (and the native contrast goes down). But this is not an issue if you're willing to use the DI, as you then get a far better overall contrast, even if the black floor is slightly raised.

In both these cases, because the source is sending the content using a power gamma and not an ST2084 gamma, we have to use an SDR calibration, but the content displayed is still HDR!

The HUGE advantage for projectors of doing the HDR to SDR conversion in the source when the source is aware that the display is HDR capable, is that we can calibrate accurately and automatically to a known standard, in that case SDR BT2020 power gamma 2.4. This is NOT possible to do at this stage with HDR, simply because there is no HDR standard for projectors (bar ST2390 which isn't supported by all software yet).

So calibrating the display to SDR BT-2020 and asking the source to do the conversion while being aware that it can send "SDR" content that goes far above 100nits (i.e. HDR content) is what makes a whole difference. When the source is able to adapt the ST2390 curve to the content dynamically, the results are even better.

In other words, when we say "HDR", we mean content with a high dynamic range, i.e. using (usually) more than 0-100nits encoded with an ST-2084 gamma.

But when we say "SDR", we can mean two things: 1) legacy content encoded with a standard dynamic range and a power gamma or BT1886 gamma, or 2) HDR content converted to a power gamma 2.4, but still covering a high dynamic range (and ideally a WCG, hence BT2020).

It's important to make this distinction, otherwise it's not possible to understand the difference between the HDR to SDR conversion of the UB900 (type 1) and the HDR to SDR conversion from MadVR, new Oppo f/w or Radiance Pro (type 2).

I know it's enough to do most people's head in, but unfortunately that's what we have to deal with in these early days of HDR implementation.

And now I'm really out...
Excellent! Thanks.
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post #28650 of 31899 Old 02-01-2018, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Agreed, but that produces unacceptable clipping even for 1100nits titles, so not an option in practice.

We can't be 100% scientific with projectors, there are too many variables and no satisfying standard.
We haven't even seriously tried yet! I've only implemented one general scientific tone mapping curve, without any real tweaks/modifications aimed at projectors yet. Please don't give up so quickly! Let's try to achieve the best scientific solution first, and only after we've seriously tried that and failed, it would be time to admit defeat and look for alternatives.
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