Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 957 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28681 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The idea is that all pixels at or below diffuse white (which should really be the bulk of the frame's pixels) should stay the same regardless of the peak luminance of the frame, but if the frame's peak luminance differs, we can compress specular highlights more or less strongly to make the most out of the display's luminance capabilities.
I suppose restricting the dynamic mapping to highlights will minimize the "pumping effect".
However, from what I've seen, many of the complaints about the custom curves are regarding "dark pictures", far more than lack of "sparkle" in specular highlights.
As a matter of fact, many Oppo users who rave about the bright pictures are using low lamp power with iris closed down, so obviously they are not looking at specular highlights.

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post #28682 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tibia View Post
I use Chromapure AutoCal to calibrate my JVC RS600 with a Lumagen Radiance Pro and wonder if the color profile "x.v. Color" mentioned on page 31 in the RS600 Owner's Manual of any value now that UHD is common place? If UHD Bluray natively supports DCI-P3, could JVC RSxxx series projectors get closer to achieving 100% of the DCI-P3 gamut if the x.v. color profile were selected? Just curious if anyone has tried this.
Forget x.v.color. It’s not a standard gamut (you can’t calibrate to it), it’s an extension of rec-709 and it is of no use whatsoever for UHD Bluray content. X.v.color uses the same filter as BT-2020 or DCI-P3, so there is nothing to gain there. Also all the controls are disabled with x.v.color, which makes it a very poor profile to use for any other purpose than x.v.color content (mostly a few dozens of Min4K blurays).
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post #28683 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Forget x.v.color. It’s not a standard gamut (you can’t calibrate to it), it’s an extension of rec-709 and it is of no use whatsoever for UHD Bluray content. X.v.color uses the same filter as BT-2020 or DCI-P3, so there is nothing to gain there. Also all the controls are disabled with x.v.color, which makes it a very poor profile to use for any other purpose than x.v.color content (mostly a few dozens of Min4K blurays).
Thank you Manni01. This is pretty much what I thought.

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post #28684 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I suppose restricting the dynamic mapping to highlights will minimize the "pumping effect".
However, from what I've seen, many of the complaints about the custom curves are regarding "dark pictures", far more than lack of "sparkle" in specular highlights.
As a matter of fact, many Oppo users who rave about the bright pictures are using low lamp power with iris closed down, so obviously they are not looking at specular highlights.
Right, we need both:

1. Adaptive tone mapping to retain specular highlights without impacting the main content, especially
2. Better APL handling, particularly when it comes to shadow detail and color rendering

and they may not be related much (except that the solution to each shouldn't hurt the other).
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post #28685 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 01:02 PM
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Hey guys, i am trying out the new firmware on the Oppo 203 and have a few questions. I want to compare this to using my customer gamma curves.
- In the setting menu on the Oppo for HDR - do i select "off btw2020" or strip metadata?
- Do i then just make sure the projector is set to gamma 2.4, bt2020 color and turn down the lamp?

dumb question - if HDR on Oppo is set to "off bt2020" then how am i still getting a HDR picture?
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post #28686 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sotwell View Post
if HDR on Oppo is set to "off bt2020" then how am i still getting a HDR picture?
This post by Manni01 explains it well:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55512784
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post #28687 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 01:40 PM
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I just installed the new beta firmware to my Oppo 203 to check out the four new modes that were just added and I have a question.
Since Chad B. calibrated my JVC-RS500, do I still select the HDR Rec BT.2020 setting he created for me and then go select one of the modes in the Oppo?
Or do I have to create a brand new profile in my JVC and use that with the OPPO modes?

Thanks.

Ray

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post #28688 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotwell View Post
Hey guys, i am trying out the new firmware on the Oppo 203 and have a few questions. I want to compare this to using my customer gamma curves.
- In the setting menu on the Oppo for HDR - do i select "off btw2020" or strip metadata?
- Do i then just make sure the projector is set to gamma 2.4, bt2020 color and turn down the lamp?

dumb question - if HDR on Oppo is set to "off bt2020" then how am i still getting a HDR picture?
Yes, you have to select "off BT2020"
Yes, select the BT2020 color profile. Turning down the lamp is purely to taste. You can go either way.
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post #28689 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Yes, you have to select "off BT2020"
Yes, select the BT2020 color profile. Turning down the lamp is purely to taste. You can go either way.
Thanks. So is the high lamp not necessary with the new tone mapping like it was with custom curves? I use -5 low lamp for SDR. Should i keep that or move to high lamp for the hdr highlights?
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post #28690 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sotwell View Post
Thanks. So is the high lamp not necessary with the new tone mapping like it was with custom curves? I use -5 low lamp for SDR. Should i keep that or move to high lamp for the hdr highlights?
Right now I am using low lamp as I feel I am getting more than enough brightness for my screen size. In some cases, you will find that high lamp gives you a more dynamic picture with a bit more punch and color saturation. I would say just pause a scene and go between low and high lamp, and see which you prefer to use on a regular basis.

And no, it is not mandatory to be in high lamp for this new tone mapping function. It all comes down to screen size and preference.
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post #28691 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
I just installed the new beta firmware to my Oppo 203 to check out the four new modes that were just added and I have a question.
Since Chad B. calibrated my JVC-RS500, do I still select the HDR Rec BT.2020 setting he created for me and then go select one of the modes in the Oppo?
Or do I have to create a brand new profile in my JVC and use that with the OPPO modes?
No need to create a new BT.2020 profile (how are you going to do that any way?); just use the existing one.
However, you may want to create a new Picture Mode with the specific combination of settings (gamma, lamp power, iris, colour profile etc) to make it easier to switch between different settings.
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post #28692 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
I just installed the new beta firmware to my Oppo 203 to check out the four new modes that were just added and I have a question.
Since Chad B. calibrated my JVC-RS500, do I still select the HDR Rec BT.2020 setting he created for me and then go select one of the modes in the Oppo?
Or do I have to create a brand new profile in my JVC and use that with the OPPO modes?

Thanks.

Ray
If Chad created and/or loaded a custom HDR gamma curve that you use for watching HDR, you can't use that gamma with the Oppo's new HDR Off modes. The picture will be dark and tinted red.

Better to create a new user mode that uses the same BT.2020 color profile, but for gamma choose something like 2.4 instead.

If Chad created an SDR BT.2020 mode for you, try that

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post #28693 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 04:47 PM
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Vertex JVC Macro V3.0 Released

I've released the V3.0 of the JVC Macro feature for the Vertex. Initially it should have been a V2.1 but given the work done in the new curves and the three sets attached I thought it was worthy of a 3.0 moniker.

The new f/w isn't available yet, but I'll link to it in the post above as soon as @HDfury releases it. It is only the auto algo that is not optimized in the current f/w (it will work fine with the new curves but it will select the 4K curve more often than necessary). If you use the custom tab (as suggested in the new PDF guide for V3.0) you don't need to wait for the new f/w to try the curves.

As the new curves are significantly redesigned and I got good feedback from @Kris Deering for one of the sets (I'll let him comment further when he's had the time to look at the other two sets in his 16/9 setting), I thought I'd make them available now as a Vertex is only necessary to switch between the curves automatically according to content (or suppress Gamma D / get the DI back in HDR), it is not necessary to use the curves themselves.

I've also edited the first post in the calibration thread because it was full of old curves. I'll only provide the curves in the Vertex pack from now on, it's easier for me to maintain.

Here is what's new (a lot more info in the PDF included in the pack, so please read it before asking questions!).

New in V3.0
  • Added support for three HDR10 custom curves (for content up to 1100nits, 2200nits and 4000nits). The auto algo only handles two curves (1K and 4K), which is sufficient in most cases (that’s what I use personally), but the custom tab now handles three curves by default (1K, 2K and 4K) which offers a marginally more progressive implementation.
  • I’m providing three new sets of completely redesigned curves. All these curves are significantly brighter, especially in the low end, and they handle highlights differently. You now get: 1 set for Dolby Cinema Emulation (107nits), which should be good for users with a peakY of 95-115nits. One set for Brightness Challenged Users (85nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 75-95nits. And one set for Enhanced Cinematic Experience (120nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 110-130nits. Note: These DCE, BCU and ECE sets are NOT custom curves. Custom curves are designed by a competent calibrator and adjusted to your environment, set-up and personal taste as there is no standard for HDR10 for projectors. However, these generic, low-res curves (11 control points instead of 256) should cover the needs of a wide range of users and give decent results for the most common set-ups. The low-res aspect doesn’t mean that the picture resolution is lower, only that the control points in the gamma curve are not as precise. There is little to no difference visually between a hi-res and a lo-res curve, provided the targets are right for your environment. If you want better quality or true custom curves, please hire a competent calibrator (or learn to do it yourself using the available tools and guides) before ruling out custom curves. You haven’t tried custom curves unless you’ve adjusted your PeakY precisely to the target of one of the included sets. All the curves use a bbi of 0 and a bbo of 0.004.
  • The Automatic Algo is back to testing content according to Max_Brightness and Max_CLL. Min_Brightness isn’t tested by default, but it’s still there if you want to use it in the custom tab.

I hope some of you will find this useful.

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post #28694 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 04:55 PM
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I've looked at Manni's new curves and they are by far the closest that I've seen to the results I get using the Oppo beta FW or the Lumagen. Not exactly the same, but a lot of the same attributes that I think people will like (image not as dim, far better shadow detail).

Outstanding work on this Manni!
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post #28695 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've looked at Manni's new curves and they are by far the closest that I've seen to the results I get using the Oppo beta FW or the Lumagen. Not exactly the same, but a lot of the same attributes that I think people will like (image not as dim, far better shadow detail).

Outstanding work on this Manni!
Thanks Kris, it's in large part thanks to your feedback on The Revenant and the 0.005nits titles. Once I saw with MadVR something closer to what I suppose you were seeing with the Oppo and the Radiance Pro, it made it clear where improvements could be made in the low end and overall brightness of the curves.

What also helped is the fact that I now have 120nits at 1800hours instead of the 210nits I had with a new bulb. That gives me more motivation to solve issues that are more visible with a lower peakY.

Hopefully with three sets of three curves more people will find something that suits their needs.
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post #28696 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've looked at Manni's new curves and they are by far the closest that I've seen to the results I get using the Oppo beta FW or the Lumagen. Not exactly the same, but a lot of the same attributes that I think people will like (image not as dim, far better shadow detail).

Outstanding work on this Manni!
Kris if you already had a OPPO and the Lumagen was not an option due to costs would you choose to use the OPPO or the curves? If you could answer that based on 1st performance, and then 2nd ease of use that would be great.
In no way do I want to diminish the fantastic work Manni is doing but if the two are relatively close in performance then for us newbs the ease of use becomes the determining factor.
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post #28697 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've looked at Manni's new curves and they are by far the closest that I've seen to the results I get using the Oppo beta FW or the Lumagen. Not exactly the same, but a lot of the same attributes that I think people will like (image not as dim, far better shadow detail).

Outstanding work on this Manni!
Kris if you already had a OPPO and the Lumagen was not an option due to costs would you choose to use the OPPO or the curves? If you could answer that based on 1st performance, and then 2nd ease of use that would be great.
In no way do I want to diminish the fantastic work Manni is doing but if the two are relatively close in performance then for us newbs the ease of use becomes the determining factor.
In its current form I?d lean toward the custom curves for ease of use but the Oppo is more flexible for dialing into preference and different viewing situations.
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post #28698 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
In its current form I?d lean toward the custom curves for ease of use but the Oppo is more flexible for dialing into preference and different viewing situations.
Ease of use is relative. It’s not easy to create a custom curve. I suppose once one has it dialed in by a professional or through self study and tools it becomes a wash.

But out of the box, surely the Oppo is easier than learning how to create a custom curve.....and probably gives better results unless one has a very good curve?
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post #28699 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 06:10 PM
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Thanks Kris and Nathan. It sounds like they are very close in performance and ease of use depends on your familiarity with using curves from what I gathered from your replies.
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post #28700 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
In its current form I?d lean toward the custom curves for ease of use but the Oppo is more flexible for dialing into preference and different viewing situations.
Ease of use is relative. It?s not easy to create a custom curve. I suppose once one has it dialed in by a professional or through self study and tools it becomes a wash.

But out of the box, surely the Oppo is easier than learning how to create a custom curve.....and probably gives better results unless one has a very good curve?
I meant if they were simply loading the curves Manni provided. The Oppo is plug and play and very easy to use, though it is still in beta so YMMV from time to time.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Ease of use is relative. It’s not easy to create a custom curve. I suppose once one has it dialed in by a professional or through self study and tools it becomes a wash.

But out of the box, surely the Oppo is easier than learning how to create a custom curve.....and probably gives better results unless one has a very good curve?
To add to this statement, and for those who own the 00 series projectors, you also regain the use of the DI without the need for any additional hardware. This is a significant benefit. I have also found that I can switch to low lamp with plenty of brightness.
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post #28702 of 31987 Old 02-02-2018, 07:35 PM
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I only have a 106" screen, and a really short throw, so brightness only took a bad hit in Gamma D...I still can't believe they charged good $ for a PJ that claimed HDR with that garbage...what a joke.
Thankfully the 203 is finally rounding into shape.
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Nice work on the v3 curves. Lots of options here, you cant go wrong with either yours or mine it seems.

Ours are actually very similar if looking at the 107nit curves, at least they are to my V1 curves, they had a shallow rolloff, I have since changed mine while looking at content clipping and ended up at my v2 curves.

Just for academic comparison.

Manni's are the light grey lines, mine are the darker black lines... As for the shadow detail and midrange of the curves, they are almost completely identical to each other until the highlight rolloff, interesting,

Those of you using my curves already, looks like we have been looking at mostly the same image in regards to shadow detail and mid tones for some time now.

107Ynit / 4000nit Manni DVE / 4000nit Javs V2 curves:



107Ynit / 1100nit Manni DVE / Javs 1200nit V2 Curves, this one is slightly different in the mid tones, it will be ever so slightly brighter. Manni's 1100nit curve is actually probably rolling off at closer to 1500 nits.



Those of you that used to run my V1 curves, they had a much more shallow roll off, lets look at the 4000nit one.

107nit 4000 Manni DVE curve / Javs 4000nit V1 Curves.



If we want to further improve the shadow detail in the Revenant from either Manni's or my curves, we would need to be lifting the curves in the first 20nits or so vs the rest... Only the fire and the brightest parts of the following image are passing the ~300nit mark. 90% of this shot sits well under 100 nits.


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I've recently took some time and fine-tuned the convergence settings. I managed to eliminate any blue or red tints and the lines on the test pattern are solid. However, I noticed that in some places the lines have some slight yellow/green/blue tint to them. Is it something I should warry about? If so, any tips on how to get rid of it?
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I've recently took some time and fine-tuned the convergence settings. I managed to eliminate any blue or red tints and the lines on the test pattern are solid. However, I noticed that in some places the lines have some slight yellow/green/blue tint to them. Is it something I should warry about? If so, any tips on how to get rid of it?
I always remember being told not to worry too much about fine tuning convergence settings as there were side effects that were possibly more damaging to the overall picture. Something about keeping adjustments to whole pixel increments but not sure if that’s accurate any more.
I know the most important thing to do is make sure the projector is square and plumb to the screen and fortunately JVC’s seem to have improved a lot in factory convergence in recent years.
Maybe some more knowledgeable projector owners can help or correct if I’m in error.
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post #28706 of 31987 Old 02-03-2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I’m providing three new sets of completely redesigned curves. All these curves are significantly brighter, especially in the low end, and they handle highlights differently. You now get: 1 set for Dolby Cinema Emulation (107nits), which should be good for users with a peakY of 95-115nits. One set for Brightness Challenged Users (85nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 75-95nits. And one set for Enhanced Cinematic Experience (120nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 110-130nits. [B]Note: These DCE, BCU and ECE sets are NOT custom curves. Custom curves are designed by a competent calibrator and adjusted to your environment, set-up and personal taste as there is no standard for HDR10 for projectors. However, these generic, low-res curves (11 control points instead of 256) should cover the needs of a wide range of users and give decent results for the most common set-ups. The low-res aspect doesn’t mean that the picture resolution is lower, only that the control points in the gamma curve are not as precise. There is little to no difference visually between a hi-res and a lo-res curve, provided the targets are right for your environment.


I hope some of you will find this useful.
Do you ever post the curves directly from the ARVE tool so we can dial in our own bbo? I'm getting right around 107nits with my current HDR settings on my rs540 (low lamp, iris -5) so I wanted to try the DCE curves.
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post #28707 of 31987 Old 02-03-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Nice work on the v3 curves. Lots of options here, you cant go wrong with either yours or mine it seems.

Ours are actually very similar if looking at the 107nit curves, at least they are to my V1 curves, they had a shallow rolloff, I have since changed mine while looking at content clipping and ended up at my v2 curves.

Just for academic comparison.

Manni's are the light grey lines, mine are the darker black lines... As for the shadow detail and midrange of the curves, they are almost completely identical to each other until the highlight rolloff, interesting,

Those of you using my curves already, looks like we have been looking at mostly the same image in regards to shadow detail and mid tones for some time now.

107Ynit / 4000nit Manni DVE / 4000nit Javs V2 curves:



107Ynit / 1100nit Manni DVE / Javs 1200nit V2 Curves, this one is slightly different in the mid tones, it will be ever so slightly brighter. Manni's 1100nit curve is actually probably rolling off at closer to 1500 nits.



Those of you that used to run my V1 curves, they had a much more shallow roll off, lets look at the 4000nit one.

107nit 4000 Manni DVE curve / Javs 4000nit V1 Curves.



If we want to further improve the shadow detail in the Revenant from either Manni's or my curves, we would need to be lifting the curves in the first 20nits or so vs the rest... Only the fire and the brightest parts of the following image are passing the ~300nit mark. 90% of this shot sits well under 100 nits.



Don’t use that scene for shadow detail. Use the scene where his son is laying next to the tree and Leo is in the background. It is right after the guys leave with the boat by the river in chapter four I think. You can go to the chapter that starts with them in the woods with the rain and rewind back to it. This scene shows drastic differences between different tone maps. It is what started me thinking about all of this after comparing it on an OLED and a projector.


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post #28708 of 31987 Old 02-03-2018, 11:21 AM
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Kris, hi can you confirm if this is the scene you are referring to? 00:20:30 time stamp

screen grab from the source on a PC

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post #28709 of 31987 Old 02-03-2018, 11:28 AM
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Greetings,

Jason, that sequence begins right at the 0:19:55 minute mark (chapter 4).


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post #28710 of 31987 Old 02-03-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Kris, hi can you confirm if this is the scene you are referring to? 00:20:30 time stamp

screen grab from the source on a PC

Greetings,

Yes, that's it..


Regards,
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