Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 958 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28711 of 31979 Old 02-03-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Don’t use that scene for shadow detail. Use the scene where his son is laying next to the tree and Leo is in the background. It is right after the guys leave with the boat by the river in chapter four I think. You can go to the chapter that starts with them in the woods with the rain and rewind back to it. This scene shows drastic differences between different tone maps. It is what started me thinking about all of this after comparing it on an OLED and a projector.
This is the waveform.

I have never had a problem with this scene with the curves I have been using for the past 2-3 months. They are identical to the new Manni ones up to nearly 300+ nits or so as you will see from the EOTF plots above... Shadow detail here has always been good for me, I have watched this film since then.

Its a tough scene that's for sure... I think the biggest improvement was clipping to 0 nits black and not 0.005. there is a very faint grey line where 0.005 nits is on that plot, if you look really closely, and it chops right in half the information on this waveform, so clipping to 0.005 is where the problem is.

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post #28712 of 31979 Old 02-03-2018, 03:14 PM
 
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Could you explain how you're capturing the image and are you using davinci for waveform analysis?

I'm curious about your camera settings. Does it have a histogram? I assume you went thru a process to make sure what the camera captures is accurate enough to use for your waveform analysis.

I ask because i have the ability to send a live camera feed into my rig and to a waveform. I have thought about using it to watch gamma changes live, especially when trying to run the 2x x990s side by side. Going by eye is one thing. Watching the waveform would be much more accurate and possibly faster.
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post #28713 of 31979 Old 02-03-2018, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Kris, hi can you confirm if this is the scene you are referring to? 00:20:30 time stamp

screen grab from the source on a PC



That’s it. I actually start all the way back when they are watching the guys leave with the boat. If you watch thru that scene with an OLED it is eye opening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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post #28714 of 31979 Old 02-03-2018, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Could you explain how you're capturing the image and are you using davinci for waveform analysis?

I'm curious about your camera settings. Does it have a histogram? I assume you went thru a process to make sure what the camera captures is accurate enough to use for your waveform analysis.

I ask because i have the ability to send a live camera feed into my rig and to a waveform. I have thought about using it to watch gamma changes live, especially when trying to run the 2x x990s side by side. Going by eye is one thing. Watching the waveform would be much more accurate and possibly faster.
Byte, these are direct screengrabs from the source, I would never take an image of an HDR projection and attempt to analyse the waveform, thats the wrong way to do it.

And yes, I am using resolve.

I have all these UHD films backed up on my PC now. So its a cinch to get a proper frame grab into resolve and get a look at whats going on.

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post #28715 of 31979 Old 02-03-2018, 06:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Byte, these are direct screengrabs from the source, I would never take an image of an HDR projection and attempt to analyse the waveform, thats the wrong way to do it.

And yes, I am using resolve.

I have all these UHD films backed up on my PC now. So its a cinch to get a proper frame grab into resolve and get a look at whats going on.
I hear ya, but when you think about it, the probe we use with auto cal or any other calibration solution is basically a sensor ( camera) sending image data to the software. Although a highly sensitive and specifically calibrated sensor.

Which bluray drive are you using?

Last edited by Bytehoven; 02-03-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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post #28716 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I've released the V3.0 of the JVC Macro feature for the Vertex. Initially it should have been a V2.1 but given the work done in the new curves and the three sets attached I thought it was worthy of a 3.0 moniker.

The new f/w isn't available yet, but I'll link to it in the post above as soon as @HDfury releases it. It is only the auto algo that is not optimized in the current f/w (it will work fine with the new curves but it will select the 4K curve more often than necessary). If you use the custom tab (as suggested in the new PDF guide for V3.0) you don't need to wait for the new f/w to try the curves.

As the new curves are significantly redesigned and I got good feedback from @Kris Deering for one of the sets (I'll let him comment further when he's had the time to look at the other two sets in his 16/9 setting), I thought I'd make them available now as a Vertex is only necessary to switch between the curves automatically according to content (or suppress Gamma D / get the DI back in HDR), it is not necessary to use the curves themselves.

I've also edited the first post in the calibration thread because it was full of old curves. I'll only provide the curves in the Vertex pack from now on, it's easier for me to maintain.

Here is what's new (a lot more info in the PDF included in the pack, so please read it before asking questions!).

New in V3.0
  • Added support for three HDR10 custom curves (for content up to 1100nits, 2200nits and 4000nits). The auto algo only handles two curves (1K and 4K), which is sufficient in most cases (that’s what I use personally), but the custom tab now handles three curves by default (1K, 2K and 4K) which offers a marginally more progressive implementation.
  • I’m providing three new sets of completely redesigned curves. All these curves are significantly brighter, especially in the low end, and they handle highlights differently. You now get: 1 set for Dolby Cinema Emulation (107nits), which should be good for users with a peakY of 95-115nits. One set for Brightness Challenged Users (85nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 75-95nits. And one set for Enhanced Cinematic Experience (120nits), which should be good for users with a PeakY of 110-130nits. Note: These DCE, BCU and ECE sets are NOT custom curves. Custom curves are designed by a competent calibrator and adjusted to your environment, set-up and personal taste as there is no standard for HDR10 for projectors. However, these generic, low-res curves (11 control points instead of 256) should cover the needs of a wide range of users and give decent results for the most common set-ups. The low-res aspect doesn’t mean that the picture resolution is lower, only that the control points in the gamma curve are not as precise. There is little to no difference visually between a hi-res and a lo-res curve, provided the targets are right for your environment. If you want better quality or true custom curves, please hire a competent calibrator (or learn to do it yourself using the available tools and guides) before ruling out custom curves. You haven’t tried custom curves unless you’ve adjusted your PeakY precisely to the target of one of the included sets. All the curves use a bbi of 0 and a bbo of 0.004.
  • The Automatic Algo is back to testing content according to Max_Brightness and Max_CLL. Min_Brightness isn’t tested by default, but it’s still there if you want to use it in the custom tab.

I hope some of you will find this useful.
I spent a few hours viewing Manni new cinematic experience curves, and I am loving the way everything is looking.

Suicide Squad, Magnificent 7, Mad Max, The Revilant, all look great.
Fantastic 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

Is there anyway you can share the Arve tool settings for these curves?

I would like to adjust the bbo just a bit.
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post #28717 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVD MAN View Post
I spent a few hours viewing Manni new cinematic experience curves, and I am loving the way everything is looking.

Suicide Squad, Magnificent 7, Mad Max, The Revilant, all look great.
Fantastic 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

Is there anyway you can share the Arve tool settings for these curves?

I would like to adjust the bbo just a bit.
Glad you like the new curves.

No plan to share settings at this stage because they are different for each curve and I haven't had the time to test all the curves in depth yet, but you can adjust bbo with the brightness control. It's not 100% correct to do it that way but if it's just 1 click up or down I don't think it will be an issue.

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post #28718 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sotwell View Post
Thanks. So is the high lamp not necessary with the new tone mapping like it was with custom curves? I use -5 low lamp for SDR. Should i keep that or move to high lamp for the hdr highlights?
If your calibration is anything like mine (I had Chad come out as well) then your SDR2020 profile lamp-mode should not be adjusted. If he calibrated your SDR2020 profile in low lamp, then all the other setting will be off if you switch to high lamp.

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post #28719 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
If Chad created an SDR BT.2020 mode for you, try that
I shouldn't have come back -- now I gotta go sell my ub900 and get the Oppo for these SDR2020 modes.

I've gotta imagine I would just utilize my SDR2020 profile and if the picture looks too dark or too bright -- I can switch modes on the fly. amirite?
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post #28720 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Glad you like the new curves.

No plan to share settings at this stage because they are different for each curve and I haven't had the time to test all the curves in depth yet, but you can adjust bbo with the brightness control. It's not 100% correct to do it that way but if it's just 1 click up or down I don't think it will be an issue.
Understood. Thanks for your consistency on improving the image of these JVC projectors for UHD HDR.
Without your expertise and your dedication I would be viewing a terrible Gamma D setting.

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post #28721 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 09:25 AM
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muhaha

it is unbelievable..i have just get used to work with custom curves. and now it seems that the game is started again (there is an oppo option at least). first of all many thanks for everyone doing their best to share their knowledge.

in my setup

tvbox 4k
oppo 203
roku 4

AV8802A

RS600

how can i make the setup? does the source matter ( 1080p 0r 4k) ?
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post #28722 of 31979 Old 02-04-2018, 12:42 PM
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For those interested in madVR tone mapping, I've just released a new build (v0.92.12). Please follow-up discussion in this new AVSForum thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...projector.html
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post #28723 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 02:32 PM
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Oppo 203

Hi folks...just testing today...sdr modes are very nice and configurable...aswesome shawdow detail AND colour saturation...amazing on low lamp, iris -5! More testing to do but very impressed thus far!

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post #28724 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 04:02 PM
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I am getting really close to wanting to buy the 203 again. If for anything, to do some testing vs my Panasonic UB900. It would be nice to have both on hand to put through the paces.
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post #28725 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am getting really close to wanting to buy the 203 again. If for anything, to do some testing vs my Panasonic UB900. It would be nice to have both on hand to put through the paces.
The Oppo video seems more crisp to me than my ub-900...perhaps just because of better tone mapping so contrast etc is improved
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post #28726 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 04:14 PM
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The tone mapping DEFINITELY effects visual sharpness. I noticed this A LOT when I was reviewing the 885ES projector. With the projector's tone mapping resolution looked good (native 4K) but the image looked a bit flat. Switched to the Oppo tone mapping and subjective sharpness, detail and depth increased by leaps and bounds. The very opening of Dunkirk when it shows the guys walking down the road (literally the opening frame that isn't a title) is a great example of this. If I bounced between Arve curves, projector tone maps and my Lumagen I would get drastically different results with this scene in apparent detail and contrast.

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post #28727 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The tone mapping DEFINITELY effects visual sharpness. I noticed this A LOT when I was reviewing the 885ES projector. With the projector's tone mapping resolution looked good (native 4K) but the image looked a bit flat. Switched to the Oppo tone mapping and subjective sharpness, detail and depth increased by leaps and bounds. The very opening of Dunkirk when it shows the guys walking down the road (literally the opening frame that isn't a title) is a great example of this. If I bounced between Arve curves, projector tone maps and my Lumagen I would get drastically different results with this scene in apparent detail and contrast.
I also find with the Oppo tone mapping, color saturation is HUGELY improved...the blue uniforms in Star Trek beyond never looked so luxurious!
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post #28728 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am getting really close to wanting to buy the 203 again. If for anything, to do some testing vs my Panasonic UB900. It would be nice to have both on hand to put through the paces.
Yo, Coach, The Panny/Integral/SDRBT2020 was definitely superior to the OPPO's (old) Strip metadata function. However, the new HDR tone mapping function on the OPPO is a completely different animal. The OPPO takes this round for sure.
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post #28729 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Kris, hi can you confirm if this is the scene you are referring to? 00:20:30 time stamp

screen grab from the source on a PC

Zombie, what screen gain r u using? I can’t resolve his right eye as well as your pic and I’m using Oppo sdr luminance 200 nits mode 4, low lamp iris -5

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post #28730 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Zombie, what screen gain r u using? I can’t resolve his right eye as well as your pic and I’m using Oppo sdr luminance 200 nits mode 4, low lamp iris -5
That is a direct screen grab from the UHD source. I'm taking a look at it later with my own curves + manni and javs recent curves. I'll grab the oppo soon so I can see for myself how it compares.
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post #28731 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Zombie, what screen gain r u using? I can’t resolve his right eye as well as your pic and I’m using Oppo sdr luminance 200 nits mode 4, low lamp iris -5
Also that pic is in LOG gamma, not HDR gamma. The real HDR shot will be way darker.
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post #28732 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
That is a direct screen grab from the UHD source. I'm taking a look at it later with my own curves + manni and javs recent curves. I'll grab the oppo soon so I can see for myself how it compares.
It appears that Arve’s tool does not include tone mapping for the low end hor HDR10. When I calibrate to ST.2390 Tone mapping the low end is noticeably brighter.
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post #28733 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It appears that Arve’s tool does not include tone mapping for the low end hor HDR10. When I calibrate to ST.2390 Tone mapping the low end is noticeably brighter.
I got a few requests via PM to post my “bright curves”.

The different tone mapping curves are intended to preserve the “overall brightness” when contents are viewed on systems with different peak nits. If you don’t know the peak luminance of your system, try the 85 nit curves first; if you want an even brighter picture overall you can try the 60 nit curves, keeping in mind the brighter curves will have less “HDR effect”.

See this post for some comparison samples:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55874834

The attached curves use 25 nits for the diffuse white or reference white (“bw” in Arve’s Tool). The curves are for 4000-nit and 1200-nit masters as indicated in the file name.

EDIT: The curves were originally created for the RS4x0 projectors. For RS5x0/6x0 the compensation should probably be reduced. The attached graph shows the low end bumps for 0.005 nits (solid blue line) and 0.001 nits (dashed blue line). The three 135-nit curves have different amount of black compensation. Black-compensated curves are only in the JVC jgd format.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-22-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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post #28734 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hi folks...just testing today...sdr modes are very nice and configurable...aswesome shawdow detail AND colour saturation...amazing on low lamp, iris -5! More testing to do but very impressed thus far!
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The tone mapping DEFINITELY effects visual sharpness. I noticed this A LOT when I was reviewing the 885ES projector. With the projector's tone mapping resolution looked good (native 4K) but the image looked a bit flat. Switched to the Oppo tone mapping and subjective sharpness, detail and depth increased by leaps and bounds. The very opening of Dunkirk when it shows the guys walking down the road (literally the opening frame that isn't a title) is a great example of this. If I bounced between Arve curves, projector tone maps and my Lumagen I would get drastically different results with this scene in apparent detail and contrast.
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I also find with the Oppo tone mapping, color saturation is HUGELY improved...the blue uniforms in Star Trek beyond never looked so luxurious!
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Yo, Coach, The Panny/Integral/SDRBT2020 was definitely superior to the OPPO's (old) Strip metadata function. However, the new HDR tone mapping function on the OPPO is a completely different animal. The OPPO takes this round for sure.
I have the same findings. Watched some UHD clips tonight with the new beta for the 203, and it was spectacular, Planet Earth 2 was mind blowing, and Valerian was much more vibrant colours, really pops now.

That beeing said, my earlier custom curves and Panny combo was when i tried to make my own curves, clearly not optimal. I downloaded Manni’s latest curves, and the DC1K was miles better than mine. But the OPPO is still better, best i have seen so far. Very happy with the newly accuired 203

And oh yes, i switched to low lamp too, and still awsome picture.

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Last edited by Nalleh; 02-05-2018 at 08:47 PM.
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post #28735 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 09:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am getting really close to wanting to buy the 203 again. If for anything, to do some testing vs my Panasonic UB900. It would be nice to have both on hand to put through the paces.
I have a 2nd x990 coming soon and i plan to have the ub900 -> x990 and 203 -> x990 running side by side.

The plan is to try to play around with the ub900-x990 to see how much closer i can get to the 203-x990 combo.

I'll be using this software on a macpro. https://www.divergentmedia.com/scopebox. with a live camera to view 10bit hdr10 test patterns on a 10bit waveform monitor.

I might also be able to record the hdmi output of the 203 to see how it is manipulating the hdr10 test patterns.If anyone has a video field monitor with waveform, like a smallHD or Ninja, etc, you could do the same thing to see what is going on.

Keep in mind, this process is only to be able to see the waveform from both projectors at the same time, while making adjustments to get the ub900->x990 to line up with the 203->x990.

I will try it with multiple target luminance ranges.

One caveat, the 2x x990s will have different lamps characteristics, one new and one with 200+ hours.
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post #28736 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I have the same findings. Watched some UHD clips tonight with the new beta for the 203, and it was spectacular, Planet Earth 2 was mind blowing
Planet Earth 2 is absolutely fan-freakin-tasic. This is what I was expecting 4K to look like two years ago. My Oppo-JVC setup actually rivals my LG OLED now, only bigger. What a long, strange trip it's been. So glad we've arrived.

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post #28737 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 11:10 PM
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There’s a lotta love for the Oppo here these days!

A year ago, some of us (me!) were sending them back, now I’m tempted to buy again.

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post #28738 of 31979 Old 02-05-2018, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
There’s a lotta love for the Oppo here these days!

A year ago, some of us (me!) were sending them back, now I’m tempted to buy again.
Since day one of ownership of the Oppo 203 ( from first release) i have never had anything complimentary so say about it in comparison to my UB900.... , That has changed.
The Tone Mapping IS a big deal, it produces spectacular results with my Z1/RS4500..

My UB900 will now take a turn in "retirement"

Speaking of "Planet Earth II" ... looked at it last night with the Oppo and it is Jaw Droppingly good!!
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post #28739 of 31979 Old 02-06-2018, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
The Oppo video seems more crisp to me than my ub-900...perhaps just because of better tone mapping so contrast etc is improved
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Yo, Coach, The Panny/Integral/SDRBT2020 was definitely superior to the OPPO's (old) Strip metadata function. However, the new HDR tone mapping function on the OPPO is a completely different animal. The OPPO takes this round for sure.
I ordered an Oppo 203 the first day they came out. Then once I discovered the strip metadata feature was flawed, I sent it back and stuck with my UB900/Intergal combo.

Back in October I had Chad back out and he re-calibrated my X750R to give me some true HDR curves. The picture was looking great. I am still lacking some in overall brightness since I like to run in low lamp, but the slider feature on the UB900 allows me to give a subtle boost in brightness on those certain 4K titles that need it.

That being said, since I am not using the HDR/SDR Conversion(or whatever the technical term is ), I am most curious how the Oppo can improve upon standard HDR playback on my system.
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post #28740 of 31979 Old 02-06-2018, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I ordered an Oppo 203 the first day they came out. Then once I discovered the strip metadata feature was flawed, I sent it back and stuck with my UB900/Intergal combo.

Back in October I had Chad back out and he re-calibrated my X750R to give me some true HDR curves. The picture was looking great. I am still lacking some in overall brightness since I like to run in low lamp, but the slider feature on the UB900 allows me to give a subtle boost in brightness on those certain 4K titles that need it.

That being said, since I am not using the HDR/SDR Conversion(or whatever the technical term is ), I am most curious how the Oppo can improve upon standard HDR playback on my system.
If Chad used the Arve tool, I “believe” they are still SDR curves as the tone mapping occurs on the pj, but I could be wrong...the Oppo gives a lot of flexibility for tone mapping with 4 modes and a luminance slider...

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