Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 959 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28741 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I got a request by PM to post my curves. Here are the ones for 86 and 130 nits peak, corresponding to what I get in 2.35:1 and 16:9 modes respectively. The diffuse white level is 25 nits, black level compensation set for 0.005 nits (I have an x570/RS420).
Very good job with these curves, at least looking at the low end.

I wish Spectracal will support BT2390 earlier than expected (next fall last time I heard). Or that HCFR/Argyll would support the Discus.

Or what I might do is look at the targets in HDFR and use these in Calman instead of the Calman targets.

Where are you hard clipping with these?

I'll link your curves to the first post of the JVC Autocal thread, they are definitely worth looking at. [EDIT: done]

We can't do this with Arve's tool because it would raise the mid-tones too much and would compress the highlights further.

I wish @arve would support BT2390 fully with the tool, it would be faster than going back to manual calibration.
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Last edited by Manni01; 02-06-2018 at 04:34 AM.
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post #28742 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
If Chad used the Arve tool, I “believe” they are still SDR curves as the tone mapping occurs on the pj, but I could be wrong...the Oppo gives a lot of flexibility for tone mapping with 4 modes and a luminance slider...
I will have to ask him to be sure.

All I do know is that I don't have to do any conversions using the Integral anymore. It is just straight HDR, with his curves.

I don't know all the terminology very well to be 100% sure what he did, but I do know I liked the end result.
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post #28743 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I will have to ask him to be sure.

All I do know is that I don't have to do any conversions using the Integral anymore. It is just straight HDR, with his curves.

I don't know all the terminology very well to be 100% sure what he did, but I do know I liked the end result.
I ran “HDR” out of my Panni and only used the Linker to get my DI back...the hdr->sdr coversion was done on the pj with a custom Arve curve...

Dominic Chan’s curves look VERY nice too with nicely increased shawdow detail...I find the Oppo did the best job at increasing color saturation however...

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post #28744 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
The .5 second Power On / Power Off duration and 500ms delay duration definitely did the trick. My Harmony setup set the on and off duration to 0 seconds with a 1000ms delay which caused my projector to not consistently turn on/off. Mark's tip to adjust the duration time worked like a charm and the projector turns on and off beautifully!

Again, here were the power delay adjustment settings for the Harmony if someone stumbles on this post at a future date:
Yup, that did the trick, alright. Been struggeling with the power off command on my Harmony Ultimate, and programmed these delays a week ago, and it has worked flawless since : So thanks for the tip

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post #28745 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
There’s a lotta love for the Oppo here these days!

A year ago, some of us (me!) were sending them back, now I’m tempted to buy again.
Guess my 900 I just got last fall can become my upstairs player. This will be my third still have my Samsung, it is unused currently. Wonder if the new pannys...how their mapping will be...could wait I guess and hope a firmware integrates it to the 900....oh well this hobby (obsession) continues

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post #28746 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Very good job with these curves, at least looking at the low end.
All credits go to @zoyd who updated HCFR to support HDR10 with ST.2390 tone mapping.

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Or what I might do is look at the targets in HDFR and use these in Calman instead of the Calman targets.
That's definitely doable.
Or we can export the targets from HCFR and "import" them into the Arve *.conf file which seems to contain the targets for 256 points.
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Where are you hard clipping with these?
HCFR hard clips at the points where the PQ curve intersects the Master MaxL, which is about 76% input for 1000 nits Master, and 91% input for 4000 nits Master.

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I'll link your curves to the first post of the JVC Autocal thread, they are definitely worth looking at.
Thanks. These should be useful for those who do not want to get into Arve's Tool.

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I wish Arve would support BT2390 fully with the tool, it would be faster than going back to manual calibration.
I haven't actually tried it, but in principle one can start with a curve generated with Arve's Tool, and use JVC AutoCal to bump up the lowest 2 or 3 gamma control points (5, 10, 15% input). That should be much faster (and more accurate) than doing the entire curve with AutoCal.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-06-2018 at 07:33 AM.
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post #28747 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Dominic Chan’s curves look VERY nice too with nicely increased shawdow detail...I find the Oppo did the best job at increasing color saturation however...
That is an inherent limitation of any tone curves (at least the "1D" curves) - they cannot control the saturation.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-06-2018 at 06:28 AM.
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post #28748 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:25 AM
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Trying to understand what y'all are doing with the Oppo that makes it so great now over how it used to be before the Oppo received this new firmware update. Are y'all introducing a setting in the Oppo that is making a picture "better" on top of a picture that already had been custom calibrated by the likes of Chad or another calibrator. Or......or y'all using the Oppo to give you a better picture on top of curves y'all attempted as hobbyist self-calibrators? And is this for SDR? HDR to SDR? HDR? or all 3? Just trying to get a better understanding of the differences between having a completely custom calibrated projector (by Chad) along with the Panny 900 versus having the Oppo replace the Panny.

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post #28749 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
Trying to understand what y'all are doing with the Oppo that makes it so great now over how it used to be before the Oppo received this new firmware update. Are y'all introducing a setting in the Oppo that is making a picture "better" on top of a picture that already had been custom calibrated by the likes of Chad or another calibrator. Or......or y'all using the Oppo to give you a better picture on top of curves y'all attempted as hobbyist self-calibrators? And is this for SDR? HDR to SDR? HDR? or all 3? Just trying to get a better understanding of the differences between having a completely custom calibrated projector (by Chad) along with the Panny 900 versus having the Oppo replace the Panny.
Post 28635, Manni sums it up nicely...
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post #28750 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Post 28635, Manni sums it up nicely...
Thanks for the post number. I try to keep up with the posts but damn, this thread will blow up if I'm away from it for just a couple days.

So, am I correct to interpret that what is being talked about is HDR to SDR conversion to display SDR BT2020? Or do I totally not comprehend Manni's explanation? Or is it something else?

Cheers,
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post #28751 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I ordered an Oppo 203 the first day they came out. Then once I discovered the strip metadata feature was flawed, I sent it back and stuck with my UB900/Intergal combo.

Back in October I had Chad back out and he re-calibrated my X750R to give me some true HDR curves. The picture was looking great. I am still lacking some in overall brightness since I like to run in low lamp, but the slider feature on the UB900 allows me to give a subtle boost in brightness on those certain 4K titles that need it.

That being said, since I am not using the HDR/SDR Conversion(or whatever the technical term is ), I am most curious how the Oppo can improve upon standard HDR playback on my system.
The new HDR Off modes are so much better than the Strip Metadata feature was, or is now after some improvements. It seems like Oppo went back to the drawing board and started over with a clean slate. I expect they will eventually remove the existing Strip Metadata option.

What we don't seem to understand is why these new modes also appear to crush blacks when using the Masciola patterns, but we don't see this occurring when watching real content.
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post #28752 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
Thanks for the post number. I try to keep up with the posts but damn, this thread will blow up if I'm away from it for just a couple days.

So, am I correct to interpret that what is being talked about is HDR to SDR conversion to display SDR BT2020? Or do I totally not comprehend Manni's explanation? Or is it something else?
Yes. Simply put, it's about where the tone mapping is performed. The Oppo 203 w/new beta apparently can perform the tone mapping for HDR in the player while restricting the PJ from doing it there, avoiding the PJ's associated HDR gamma (which is limited at this time). That then allows you to employ standard gamma, like 2.4, used for SDR for better control and consistency in the peaks and darks of the image.
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post #28753 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Yes. Simply put, it's about where the tone mapping is performed. The Oppo 203 w/new beta apparently can perform the tone mapping for HDR in the player while restricting the PJ from doing it there, avoiding the PJ's associated HDR gamma (which is limited at this time). That then allows you to employ standard gamma, like 2.4, used for SDR for better control and consistency in the peaks and darks of the image.
Thank you for the explanation. So, if I'm using a custom HDR calibration curve (done by Chad) for my HDR movies, and happy with that, then something like this wouldn't be applicable to me, correct? This would be for those individuals that want to increase brightness by sending "SDR" birghtness" with a HDR tone map? If so, then I'm guessing that would need yet another custom curve (ie., SDR/HDR curve)?

Appreciate all the help!

Cheers,
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post #28754 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
This would be for those individuals that want to increase brightness by sending "SDR" birghtness" with a HDR tone map? If so, then I'm guessing that would need yet another custom curve (ie., SDR/HDR curve)?
You don’t need another custom curve, as long as the projector can display SDR properly at gamma 2.4.
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post #28755 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
Thanks for the post number. I try to keep up with the posts but damn, this thread will blow up if I'm away from it for just a couple days.

So, am I correct to interpret that what is being talked about is HDR to SDR conversion to display SDR BT2020? Or do I totally not comprehend Manni's explanation? Or is it something else?
Whether you call it HDR to SDR conversion or tone mapping, you select a BT.2020 color profile and most likely the 2.4 gamma in your JVC when using the new HDR Off modes in the Oppo. You can't use any HDR curves that Chad created, or any others created with the Arve Tool or Autocal either.
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post #28756 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You don’t need another custom curve, as long as the projector can display SDR properly at gamma 2.4.
Forgive me, but I'm not quite sure I understand what gamma 2.4 is but I assume my SDR curve Chad created is done using that? Or better yet, how do you know that it is displaying SDR properly???

Cheers,
Ray

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post #28757 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:17 AM
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Whether you call it HDR to SDR conversion or tone mapping, you select a BT.2020 color profile and most likely the 2.4 gamma in your JVC when using the new HDR Off modes in the Oppo. You can't use any HDR curves that Chad created, or any others created with the Arve Tool or Autocal either.
Ok, so let me see if I have this correct for this scenario playing a 4K HDR disc. I would NOT use the HDR curve that Chad created as I normally, I'd use the SDR curve but I'd also need to change the color profile to 2020? If that's correct, then I'm confused what "curve" I'd use as you say "You can't use any HDR curves that Chad created"

I truly apprecaite that patience some of y'all have with us marginally smart on this stuff

Cheers,
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post #28758 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:30 AM
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Forgive me, but I'm not quite sure I understand what gamma 2.4 is but I assume my SDR curve Chad created is done using that? Or better yet, how do you know that it is displaying SDR properly???
If Chad has created an SDR curve for you then it’s the one to use, but switch the colour profile to BT.2020.
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post #28759 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:43 AM
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Ok, so let me see if I have this correct for this scenario playing a 4K HDR disc. I would NOT use the HDR curve that Chad created as I normally, I'd use the SDR curve but I'd also need to change the color profile to 2020?

I truly apprecaite that patience some of y'all have with us marginally smart on this stuff
No problem. Now, if you're happy with the curve calibration in your current set up, then you probably shouldn't bother.

This option is for those who are unhappy with the PJ doing the tone mapping along with the PJ's inherent HDR gamma curve. In that situation, the Oppo's tone mapping will be clearly better. You will have to do more research to see if the Oppo 203 will offer you some benefit over the calibration you have now. For me, I have the X990 (not professionally calibrated) but even with fully operable iris in HDR and ST2084 gamma OOTB, I'm already putting my Panasonic UB900 player up for sale and going for the Oppo 203.

As far as the Oppo 203 to gamma Gamma D comparison, I wonder if it's like comparing a late model Turbo 997 relying on PDK to an older air-cooled bug with manual stick. Even if you add a short throw shifter onto the ol' coveted collectible, it's still not going to perform nearly as well as where the shifting occurs electronically with the PDK transmission.
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post #28760 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:43 AM
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Quick newb to custom curves question (most anyone using custom curves should be able to chime in quickly):

How many custom curves can I have stored in my RS600? Is it only limited to 3 at a time, or can I store three different curves to each of the different User settings?

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post #28761 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

I haven't actually tried it, but in principle one can start with a curve generated with Arve's Tool, and use JVC AutoCal to bump up the lowest 2 or 3 gamma control points (5, 10, 15% input). That should be much faster (and more accurate) than doing the entire curve with AutoCal.
Hi, I had a chance to take a look late last night, I went right for the very low APL clip in The Revenant that was discussed earlier. It definitely looked better than many of the other curves I have tested recently. Shadow detail really stood out in this scene in comparison. Thanks for sharing!!

It was getting late but started to to work on tweaking 5/10/15 in the autocal on one of my previous curves to try and match what you did with this curve. It does seem Arve's tool needs an update to be able to handle BT2390. I'll go back to this tonight and report back.



I ordered a 203 today, it better be *awesome* in comparison or I'm sending a few of you the bill..

Last edited by zombie10k; 02-06-2018 at 07:53 AM.
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post #28762 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 07:59 AM
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Quick newb to custom curves question (most anyone using custom curves should be able to chime in quickly):

How many custom curves can I have stored in my RS600? Is it only limited to 3 at a time, or can I store three different curves to each of the different User settings?
It’s three total. However, it literally only takes a minute to upload a curve, so you can have a bunch stored on you computer for uploading.
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post #28763 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:03 AM
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It was getting late but started to to work on tweaking 5/10/15 in the autocal on one of my previous curves to try and match what you did with this curve.
If you have a meter it would be better to measure the levels in HCFR.
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post #28764 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:03 AM
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It’s three total. However, it literally only takes a minute to upload a curve, so you can have a bunch stored on you computer for uploading.
Thank you

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post #28765 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Yes. Simply put, it's about where the tone mapping is performed. The Oppo 203 w/new beta apparently can perform the tone mapping for HDR in the player while restricting the PJ from doing it there, avoiding the PJ's associated HDR gamma (which is limited at this time). That then allows you to employ standard gamma, like 2.4, used for SDR for better control and consistency in the peaks and darks of the image.
I also appreciate the explanation by Aztar along with what Manni explained.

My projector still has a SDR profile Chad created when I was using the HDR/SDR conversion with the Pan/Integral combo. That being said, I will probably still need him to tweak this since he didn't touch it the last time down.

It will be interesting to see what I like better after I test this out.

Thanks again.
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post #28766 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:13 AM
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Thank you

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I do not have a light meter to test brightness. I am using a 106" wide high power 2.8 screen at mid throw range and a new bulb so I assume that I have plenty of brightness. My second assumption is that I should only test the curves that are created for the most nits and not bother testing the lower nits ones, is this what I should be doing?
I am hoping to just get the oppo203, I just want the picture to be the best it can be. I dont really enjoy all this technical adjusting and stuff but since I have the Vertex here I might as well see what improvements I can make. Ybr444 bt2020 really looks horrible on my screen now so i use 4K rgb bt2020 with the Vertex...then again I haven't properly set up a custom curve yet.

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Chad B calibrated JVC RS600, 112" 2.35 DaLite 2.8 High Power Screen (395 calibrated nits baby!!), 7.5.4 Marantz AV7702, Aerial Acoustics Model 6, Model 5, CC3, Def Tech UIWBP/A, 4-15" Infinite Baffle Sub + 15" Velodyne Sub Near-field, OPPO 203, Geek Pulse DAC, NVidia Shield
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post #28767 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
To add to this statement, and for those who own the 00 series projectors, you also regain the use of the DI without the need for any additional hardware. This is a significant benefit. I have also found that I can switch to low lamp with plenty of brightness.
Yes, this brings the HDR performance of the 00 series and the 20 series to nearly the same level of the 40 series.
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post #28768 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I shouldn't have come back -- now I gotta go sell my ub900 and get the Oppo for these SDR2020 modes.

I've gotta imagine I would just utilize my SDR2020 profile and if the picture looks too dark or too bright -- I can switch modes on the fly. amirite?
The button toward the lower left corner of the Oppo remote, button with picture of a wrench, takes you to an overlay on the screen, that allows you to adjust the tone mapping settings. That way you can quickly make changes during the movie.
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post #28769 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The button toward the lower left corner of the Oppo remote, button with picture of a wrench, takes you to an overlay on the screen, that allows you to adjust the tone mapping settings. That way you can quickly make changes during the movie.
Even better, the Oppo Media Control App for iOS (I don't know if there is an Android version) allows you to made both HDR Off mode changes and to modify the Target Luminance value. It is dynamic and you can see the results on the screen without any distracting OSD overlays.
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JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral
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post #28770 of 31987 Old 02-06-2018, 09:12 AM
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Even better, the Oppo Media Control App for iOS (I don't know if there is an Android version) allows you to made both HDR Off mode changes and to modify the Target Luminance value. It is dynamic and you can see the results on the screen without any other distracting OSD overlays.
Android app works perfectly as well. It's awesome.

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