Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread - Page 974 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29191 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
High lamp also increases the color volume (not only the color gamut) and with the DI (if you can live with the artifacts mostly during credits) the black floor is the same, so the dynamic contrast is much bigger.
.
Absolutely .... With my Z1/RS4500 i run HDR with "High" laser i get around 46fl ( 150nits) with my 143" scope screen , 46fl combined with the Mode 2 Dynamic Dimming colour and contrast look spectacular .
If i run on MED laser and close the iris down to get 30fl it does "look" way less contrasty and vibrant than the 46fl .

For HDR, the brighter the better..
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post #29192 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
High lamp also increases the color volume (not only the color gamut) and with the DI (if you can live with the artifacts mostly during credits) the black floor is the same, so the dynamic contrast is much bigger.

Also, provided you use high lamp with the iris fully open and the DI, the slightly higher black floor is rarely noticeable, while the higher ANSI contrast (compared to using the iris at a closer setting) is noticeable almost all the time. So unless you have a very low APL scene (mostly black but not entirely, you get a lot more contrast with high lamp, and the black on mixed APL screens looks just as black if not more because the bright parts of the pictures look so much brighter. A good example of this is the end credits of Trolls, the animation. The background looks completely black but the foreground is very bright and colorful. Because the brighter parts are brighter, they make your pupil close a bit more, which makes the black parts blacker. So the measured native black are slightly higher, but the apparent black are the same, if not better. This of course only works in HDR, with brightness going up to +100nits. In SDR, with brightness never above 50nits, that doesn't work and you want the lower black floor.

This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that you need 100nits+ to do HDR properly. If you go down to significantly less, you still have to make room for the highlights or you clip too much, and your picture goes too dark (far darker than bluray).

Not saying that high lamp is preferable (I agree with you it's up to taste), but there are more advantages than those you listed. Main downside apart hit on lamp life is fan noise. That's one of the reasons why I tried low lamp for a while and went back to high lamp.

Asharma has very low peakY (86nits) in low lamp, so for me high lamp isn't an option in his case, it's a requirement. If you can't hit at least 100nits in low lamp, use high lamp is my advice.

I have 140nits/210nits in low/high lamp (with a new lamp), 125nits/175nits now at close to 2000 hours (that's with the filter, I get 140nits/195nits without the filter), so it's an option for me, and I still prefer high lamp due to the higher color volume.

Whether using custom curves or the Oppo, it's important to adjust the parameters so that you have the same diffuse white. Low lamp will leave less headroom for the highlights (more compression which can lead to clipping) than high lamp. Or you'll get a too dark picture if you don't adjust parameters accordingly.

By the way, recently I experienced a weird issue: when I switched to high lamp in HDR (I had been using low lamp for a while), I would get less brightness than in low lamp. But it was only in HDR. In SDR or 3D, I would get the expected higher brightness. So I decided to run an Autocal and of course, that solved it. For some reason, my HDR high lamp calibration had gone wrong. After the autocal things went back to normal, with about 40% more brightness in high lamp.

So if you question your lamp in any given mode, run an autocal (with a known good Spyder, a bad one can have the opposite effect and reduce your brightness by causing unnecessary corrections).
Thank you a Sir...a couple points...I actually only have 65 nits in low lamp so your point is even more pronounced...secondly, had a similar issue with picture going dimmer low lamp iris -5 vs iris 0. 0 was dimmer...re ran Autocal...all good but weird, to your point.

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post #29193 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 04:45 AM
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Ok, I'm very confused - I think I'm doing something wrong.

I have installed the Vertex in my chain, ticked the box saying Disable HDR and loaded up the Brightness challenged curves from Mannis Vertex V3 pack, 1k, 2k and 4k via Autocal.

So, tried Passengers UHD disc, and I'm seeing SDR BT2020 as the output, and the picture looks really dark and colour looks oversaturated, no matter what gamma I select.

I have BT2020 as colourspace on the projector, and I have Import selected under Gamma.

When I change chapters on the Panasonic UB 700, it mentions dynamic range conversion.

Can one of you guys with expertise sanity check what I have done please? I must be missing something really obvious?

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post #29194 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
Ok, I'm very confused - I think I'm doing something wrong.

I have installed the Vertex in my chain, ticked the box saying Disable HDR and loaded up the Brightness challenged curves from Mannis Vertex V3 pack, 1k, 2k and 4k via Autocal.

So, tried Passengers UHD disc, and I'm seeing SDR BT2020 as the output, and the picture looks really dark and colour looks oversaturated, no matter what gamma I select.

I have BT2020 as colourspace on the projector, and I have Import selected under Gamma.

When I change chapters on the Panasonic UB 700, it mentions dynamic range conversion.

Can one of you guys with expertise sanity check what I have done please? I must be missing something really obvious?
Solved the problem, thanks to claws post in the Vertex thread - I was on Edid 14 instead of 11............

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post #29195 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that you need 100nits+ to do HDR properly.
FWIW this is exactly what my calibrator (Chad B) told me. In fact he didn't even calibrate a low lamp HDR mode for me because IIRC my system is 105 high lamp and somewhere in the 70's low lamp.
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post #29196 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 07:23 AM
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HDFury, Oppo, strip metadata, HDR off, SDR2020, DI, high lamp, low lamp, etc. If like me you are in-experienced with video and calibration and cannot keep up with this discussion, this is the best solution for this HDR "situation" :


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post #29197 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 07:46 AM
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1 thing at a time

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post #29198 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that you need 100nits+ to do HDR properly. If you go down to significantly less, you still have to make room for the highlights or you clip too much, and your picture goes too dark (far darker than bluray).


I have 140nits/210nits in low/high lamp (with a new lamp), 125nits/175nits now at close to 2000 hours (that's with the filter, I get 140nits/195nits without the filter), so it's an option for me, and I still prefer high lamp due to the higher color volume
Manni, thanks for all your advice over the years to help us get the most out of our JVC projectors.

I've only recently started watching HDR on my X750 with Netflix and iTunes using an Apple TV 4K and an Oppo 203. I agree that we need to approach HDR differently than SDR. Maximize the available brightness from the projector in HDR and then use whatever tone mapping to match diffuse white to your reference level. The black levels just don't seem to be a problem because the contrast is so high. On a total fade to black the dynamic iris still does its job and the screen disappears.

This is the opposite of how we've always approached SDR where we keep the manual iris clamped down as much as possible to lower the black floor.

BTW, I've also been impressed by the longevity and stability of the lamps in the current JVC range.
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post #29199 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceJK View Post
Manni, thanks for all your advice over the years to help us get the most out of our JVC projectors.

I've only recently started watching HDR on my X750 with Netflix and iTunes using an Apple TV 4K and an Oppo 203. I agree that we need to approach HDR differently than SDR. Maximize the available brightness from the projector in HDR and then use whatever tone mapping to match diffuse white to your reference level. The black levels just don't seem to be a problem because the contrast is so high. On a total fade to black the dynamic iris still does its job and the screen disappears.

This is the opposite of how we've always approached SDR where we keep the manual iris clamped down as much as possible to lower the black floor.

BTW, I've also been impressed by the longevity and stability of the lamps in the current JVC range.
I think I’m going to tweak EVERYTHING around high lamp, iris 0, and Oppo hdr off bt2020...I’m not worried about burning thru bulbs, given what I have invested into my man cave
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post #29200 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I think I’m going to tweak EVERYTHING around high lamp, iris 0, and Oppo hdr off bt2020...I’m not worried about burning thru bulbs, given what I have invested into my man cave
Agreed. Not sure why some spend so much on these rooms and then skimp on the brightness available to save some time on a bulb that is <$500. I want ALL the (calibrated) brightness this sucker can give me. These projectors aren't exactly light cannons. And the "it's too loud" argument is another I don't get as once the movie starts, there is no possible way you can hear the projector in high lamp if you have a proper audio volume.
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post #29201 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 996911 View Post
Agreed. Not sure why some spend so much on these rooms and then skimp on the brightness available to save some time on a bulb that is <$500. I want ALL the (calibrated) brightness this sucker can give me. These projectors aren't exactly light cannons. And the "it's too loud" argument is another I don't get as once the movie starts, there is no possible way you can hear the projector in high lamp if you have a proper audio volume.


Not everyone has the same room configuration, throw distance, screen gain or screen size... or ambient light control.

With my JVC sitting on a bookcase just behind my head,
the front exhaust ports are less than 36" from my ears, it bothers me on High Lamp mode.

I've already concluded I have plenty of brightness in Low Lamp in my room with a short 12' throw and 1.3 gain screen

Spoiler!


I'm a Black Level junkie first and foremost,
That's what first moved me to a JVC BCM (Black Contrast Monster) Before HDR was even out.
Hi Lamp mode with iris wide open raises "MY" black floor unnecessarily. Not interested, sorry.

All this may be moot in a few years

I suspect a 120" size wallpaper type flexible OLED screen will someday crush the home projector market.
It's just a matter time for the price of the technology to trickle down to make it happen on the consumer level.


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post #29202 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Not everyone has the same room configuration, throw distance, screen gain or screen size... or ambient light control.

With my JVC sitting on a bookcase just behind my head,
the front exhaust ports are less than 36" from my ears, it bothers me on High Lamp mode.

I've already concluded I have plenty of brightness in Low Lamp in my room with a short 12' throw and 1.3 gain screen

Spoiler!


I'm a Black Level junkie first and foremost,
That's what first moved me to a JVC BCM (Black Contrast Monster) Before HDR was even out.
Hi Lamp mode with iris wide open raises "MY" black floor unnecessarily. Not interested, sorry.

All this may be moot in a few years

I suspect a 120" size wallpaper type flexible OLED screen will someday crush the home projector market.
It's just a matter time for the price of the technology to trickle down to make it happen on the consumer level.

I agree with you but unfortunately for most no one can replicate your specific situation with such crazy brights on HDR and low lamp. Like you said it's all about variables like room size, screen size and material, location of equipment, materials on walls and ceiling etc. Most if not all others cannot seem to get the brightness you can get.

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post #29203 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I think I’m going to tweak EVERYTHING around high lamp, iris 0, and Oppo hdr off bt2020...I’m not worried about burning thru bulbs, given what I have invested into my man cave
I just watched the sand storm scene in Mad Max on high lamp, iris 0...Oppo hdr off bt2020 Mode 3 400 nits...the rapid flashes from bright to dark were blindingly awesome!! Had to squint...saaaaaaweeeet!

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post #29204 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I think I’m going to tweak EVERYTHING around high lamp, iris 0, and Oppo hdr off bt2020...I’m not worried about burning thru bulbs, given what I have invested into my man cave
And then let YOUR eyes be the final judge.

I have a large, scoped screen with 17' throw, so not the best for NITs. I prefer Zappiti HDMI-in and UHD playback with Oppo HDR off BT.2020, mode 4 (or 3), Lum 250 (adjust on fly using app if needed) into JVC BT.2020 filter, gamma 2.4, Auto 2 DI on, IRIS -0, lamp High. Fan noise not an issue for me with my setup. I have a Mack lamp warranty and spare lamp too.
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post #29205 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
And then let YOUR eyes be the final judge.

I have a large, scoped screen with 17' throw, so not the best for NITs. I prefer Zappiti HDMI-in and UHD playback with Oppo HDR off BT.2020, mode 4 (or 3), Lum 250 (adjust on fly using app if needed) into JVC BT.2020 filter, gamma 2.4, Auto 2 DI on, IRIS -0, lamp High. Fan noise not an issue for me with my setup. I have a Mack lamp warranty and spare lamp too.
The beta have been a good upgrade? I know I mentioned to you about installing it. Been great for me.
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post #29206 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:07 PM
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I'm actually very happy with the tweaks today.

I have done:

Autocal

Determined Peak nits on my screen.

Added a Vertex

Uplosed the Brightness Challenged Curves

Readied the vertex to do Autoselection with my RS232 cable arrives.

It was a bit of work, but I think it will get some more life out of my existing Panasonic UB 700.
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post #29207 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I just watched the sand storm scene in Mad Max on high lamp, iris 0...Oppo hdr off bt2020 Mode 3 400 nits...the rapid flashes from bright to dark were blindingly awesome!! Had to squint...saaaaaaweeeet!
Yep, Mode 3 400nits and up if you have the brightness produces excellent results.

Below 300 nits has to many compromises . Example...... put on Oblivion UHD, i think its chapter 4 or 5 ...it opens with a shot of the Sky Quarters in the right of frame, Left of frame is the Sun, On 300nits or less the Sun will "Pulse" ...the mapping appears to be not able to make up its mind on what to do. With 400 nits and up all is well.

People are only using the lower nit values on the Oppo because they either havnt got the necessary brightness needed OR are obsessed with running in Low Lamp.
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post #29208 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AidenL View Post
I have installed the Vertex in my chain, ticked the box saying Disable HDR and loaded up the Brightness challenged curves from Mannis Vertex V3 pack, 1k, 2k and 4k via Autocal.

I have BT2020 as colourspace on the projector, and I have Import selected under Gamma.
Quote:
Solved the problem, thanks to claws post in the Vertex thread - I was on Edid 14 instead of 11............
If you are using SDR2020, you should be using Gamma 2.4. Not an imported curve, those are for HDR only.
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post #29209 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:46 PM
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If you are using SDR2020, you should be using Gamma 2.4. Not an imported curve, those are for HDR only.
It is HDR though, when EDID 11 is selected.

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post #29210 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:51 PM
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It is HDR though, when EDID 11 is selected.
Right, okay. I got confused at your Disable HDR checkbox part and mentioning Dynamic Range Conversion. I thought you were trying for SDR2020. HDR curves for EDID 11. Gamma 2.4 for EDID 14. BT2020 for both.
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post #29211 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 12:54 PM
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Right, okay. I got confused at your Disable HDR checkbox part and mentioning Dynamic Range Conversion. I thought you were trying for SDR2020. HDR curves for EDID 11. Gamma 2.4 for EDID 14. BT2020 for both.
I managed to confuse myself at times!

All good now though!

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post #29212 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 04:07 PM
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So I painted my projector screen wall this weekend a much darker taupe. It was a lighter taupe shade before. I’ve never been able to convince my wife to allow me to paint the ceiling in our living room where I have my home theater. But I’m really, really pleased with how the screen just disappears tand how much more immersive the movie is.
With Manni’s curves and my set up now, I can not possibly see how I would need anything else to satisfy my viewing experience. Next uo will likely be a vertex for more customizable switching. Unless I can really up my game with my Harmony Elite.

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post #29213 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I just watched the sand storm scene in Mad Max on high lamp, iris 0...Oppo hdr off bt2020 Mode 3 400 nits...the rapid flashes from bright to dark were blindingly awesome!! Had to squint...saaaaaaweeeet!
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Yep, Mode 3 400nits and up if you have the brightness produces excellent results.
Just loaded up that scene myself, and yep, pretty amazing. Gonna have to start rewatching a lot of big movies now with the new settings.

After playing with forever, I too decided Mode 3 was the one I was gonna go with. Left the nits at 300 since that's where Chad had set it, but may need to play around more and see what 400 does since you both mentioned it. Fun times for sure!
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post #29214 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 09:20 PM
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I just installed a new bulb (orange light came on the JVC and a warning...granted, the bulb had 3400 hours on it!). Anyway, I pulled out a recently purchased light meter and here are my readings:

High Power IRIS all the way open: 660 LUX, 61.3 FtL, 273 Nits (Stewart Firehawk)

Low Power IRIS open: 395 Lux, 36.71 FtL, 164 Nits

Is my math correct???? ((Lux/3.14)*1.3 gain screen)

My old bulb was still plenty bright and without the warning, I wouldn't have changed it. I was getting around 500 lux on the old bulb in high power.

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post #29215 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I just installed a new bulb (orange light came on the JVC and a warning...granted, the bulb had 3400 hours on it!). Anyway, I pulled out a recently purchased light meter and here are my readings:

High Power IRIS all the way open: 660 LUX, 61.3 FtL, 273 Nits (Stewart Firehawk)

Low Power IRIS open: 395 Lux, 36.71 FtL, 164 Nits

Is my math correct???? ((Lux/3.14)*1.3 gain screen)

My old bulb was still plenty bright and without the warning, I wouldn't have changed it. I was getting around 500 lux on the old bulb in high power.
Hi Dave,

The formula looks good to me, and the brightness looks like expected [EDIT: I initially thought drop was too high from high to low lamp but I must have made a mistake, 40% is bang on].

Just above 20% loss after 3400 hours is remarkable. I have 20% loss after nearly 2000 hours (and I thought it was pretty good!), so unless mine doesn't lose anything for the next 1500 hours (unlikely) you did very well. Did you use mostly high lamp or low lamp?

Specs says lamp life (4000 hours in low lamp) is when the lamp has lost 50% of its initial power. so you've done significantly above specs.

By the way, I would have replaced it too. Not worth having to clean the inside after a bulb explosion!

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post #29216 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Dave,

The formula looks good to me, and the brightness looks like expected [EDIT: I initially thought drop was too high from high to low lamp but I must have made a mistake, 40% is bang on].

Just above 20% loss after 3400 hours is remarkable. I have 20% loss after nearly 2000 hours (and I thought it was pretty good!), so unless mine doesn't lose anything for the next 1500 hours (unlikely) you did very well. Did you use mostly high lamp or low lamp?

Specs says lamp life (4000 hours in low lamp) is when the lamp has lost 50% of its initial power. so you've done significantly above specs.

By the way, I would have replaced it too. Not worth having to clean the inside after a bulb explosion!
I've had the spare bulb for nearly a year and never felt the need to replace it. I use mostly low lamp and only use high when watching UHD movies. I'll wait a week for an autocal (50 hours our so), then do another the following week and compare the two.
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post #29217 of 32125 Old 02-18-2018, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I just installed a new bulb (orange light came on the JVC and a warning...granted, the bulb had 3400 hours on it!).
Nice. Haven't hit that stage yet so didn't know you could actually get a warning light when the bulb was almost up. Just thought cleaning up an exploding bulb was part of the fun of projector ownership I still had to look forward to.

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post #29218 of 32125 Old 02-19-2018, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I just installed a new bulb (orange light came on the JVC and a warning...granted, the bulb had 3400 hours on it!). Anyway, I pulled out a recently purchased light meter and here are my readings:

High Power IRIS all the way open: 660 LUX, 61.3 FtL, 273 Nits (Stewart Firehawk)

Low Power IRIS open: 395 Lux, 36.71 FtL, 164 Nits

Is my math correct???? ((Lux/3.14)*1.3 gain screen)

My old bulb was still plenty bright and without the warning, I wouldn't have changed it. I was getting around 500 lux on the old bulb in high power.
Dave, your numbers inspired me to check my high lamp numbers, I had been focusing on low lamp up till now. I have 540 lux at the screen, in high lamp, iris fully open, 0.8 gain screen.

Turns out, on my original bulb, I have 135 nits, so I have uploaded the Enhanced Cinema Experience Curve.

It’s getting better and better !
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post #29219 of 32125 Old 02-19-2018, 05:24 AM
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That is fascinating. Assuming your 103” EN4K screen is a 16*9 model, I have the same screen just one size larger in 16*9 equivalence, ie, 109”.

Yet with a new lamp in rec2020 mode, Chad measured 78nits in high lamp iris fully open, off the screen — almost 60 nits less than what you are getting.
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post #29220 of 32125 Old 02-19-2018, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That is fascinating. Assuming your 103” EN4K screen is a 16*9 model, I have the same screen just one size larger in 16*9 equivalence, ie, 109”.

Yet with a new lamp in rec2020 mode, Chad measured 78nits in high lamp iris fully open, off the screen — almost 60 nits less than what you are getting.
We’re u in 2.35 zoomed mode when Chad took the measurement or 16:9 mode? 78 is sounds waaay low if u were in 16:9 mode...

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