JVC Calibration Software V6 For 2015 Models (X9000,X7000,X5000,RS400,RS500,RS600) - Page 131 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3901 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 05:01 AM
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The spyder 5 Pro dropped to $99 on amazon this morning per camelcamelcamel alert...
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post #3902 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 05:15 AM
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The spyder 5 Pro dropped to $99 on amazon this morning per camelcamelcamel alert...
Wow, thanks for the heads up... one ordered now.
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post #3903 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The curves are meant for specific peak luminance levels. When you change lamp power ideally you should use a different curve; however, if you’re using pre-made curves the it doesn’t really matter. You do need separate autocal for high/low lamp power.
Assuming low lamp mode only, after running Autocal for both SDR and HDR, once the results are saved, does the projector automatically select which to use based on the selected user mode?
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post #3904 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Assuming low lamp mode only, after running Autocal for both SDR and HDR, once the results are saved, does the projector automatically select which to use based on the selected user mode?
Each Picture Mode remembers settings such as lamp power and gamma, until you change the settings within the Picture Mode.
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post #3905 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 03:41 PM
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Gamma calibration

Is there an explantion for steps 3 - 5 of the attached either in an AVSForum thread or from JVC? From this thread:

1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?
2) Which color(s)?
3) Use the mouse to adjust the gamma curve, HOW?
4) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?

Sorry to keep asking so many questions but would like to be prepared before tackling this.
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post #3906 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Is there an explantion for steps 3 - 5 of the attached either in an AVSForum thread or from JVC? From this thread:

1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?
2) Which color(s)?
3) Use the mouse to adjust the gamma curve, HOW?
4) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?

Sorry to keep asking so many questions but would like to be prepared before tackling this.
This is totally independent of the gamma autocal. It’s used for manually adjusting gamma, and requires the use of an external program (HCFR, CalMAN, Chromapure etc) to measure the effects of the adjustment. Normally you would adjust the White, but the three colours R,G,B can also be adjusted independently in case there’s any imbalance between them.
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post #3907 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This is totally independent of the gamma autocal. It’s used for manually adjusting gamma, and requires the use of an external program (HCFR, CalMAN, Chromapure etc) to measure the effects of the adjustment. Normally you would adjust the White, but the three colours R,G,B can also be adjusted independently in case there’s any imbalance between them.
Thanks as always Dominic. Still have the following questions:

1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?
2) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?
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post #3908 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Thanks as always Dominic. Still have the following questions:



1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?

2) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?


For 2) all of the above. Lol. Once you start playing with it you will see what I mean. As you go into the center of the screen and angle the spyder so that it faces the projector directly the position on the auto cal software will change as the brightness seen in the lens changes. Just make sure you end up as center as possible in the screen (the shadow) and right as possible in the auto cal software box


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post #3909 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Thanks as always Dominic. Still have the following questions:

1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?
Use Normal gamma for calibration

Quote:
2) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?
There are no contradictions between them.

The Spyder is positioned such that the shadow of the Spyder is in the centre of the screen.

The (b) part is for adjusting the distance away from the projector. The “box” is not the screen; it is a box shown in the autocal software. You adjust the distance such that in the autocal picture the Spyder is close to the right edge. Note that after adjusting the distance, most likely you will have to re-adjust the height of the Spyder.
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post #3910 of 4163 Old 12-08-2018, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Use Normal gamma for calibration





There are no contradictions between them.



The Spyder is positioned such that the shadow of the Spyder is in the centre of the screen.



The (b) part is for adjusting the distance away from the projector. The “box” is not the screen; it is a box shown in the autocal software. You adjust the distance such that in the autocal picture the Spyder is close to the right edge. Note that after adjusting the distance, most likely you will have to re-adjust the height of the Spyder.


What he said. Lol


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post #3911 of 4163 Old 12-09-2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Thanks as always Dominic. Still have the following questions:

1) I believe that the gamma setting value is 2.2?
2) I know that the Spyder should have the lens facing the projector but have read that it should be positioned (a) in the center of the screen horizontally and vertically and (b) along the right edge of the box; which is it?
In the centre of the screen, in the yellow box the spyder facing the projector as close to the yellow line as possible. Make sure you can see the reflection circle just under the projector or above it.

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post #3912 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
Can someone please tell me what's going on here. My gamma is going out of wack after the autocal.
I started from the factory settings, did a mesurement with Calman and gamma was more or less following the 2.2 curve dropping towards 2.0 on the bright end.
However, after I do an autocal I get this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...490036&thumb=1
A lot of corrections to the gamma. In Calman it looks like this:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...490038&thumb=1
This is the result of gamma-only autocal. If I do the colors+gamma, the colors are slightly better (but not much), but gamma spike is the same.
This is the first time it happens. Before, if anything, I had gamma dropping on the bright end, and now this.
Anyone? Please!
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post #3913 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 11:15 AM
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Had my first calibration go seemingly successfully last night, although I think I need to run it one more time with getting the meter on the right side of the box, as I think I was on the left. Missed that part.

A couple questions I came up with are:

1)Am I allowed to change the file names from the cals to something I can actually know the difference between?

2) I did two cals, one for 1080P profile, which I use the "Reference" color profile for, however this puts the filter in place so should I not change this to standard as well or leave it on reference if that is what I plan to use?

3) Since the recommended gamma for the panny 820 and its tone mapping feature is 2.4 with SDR bt2020, would I still correct gamma to "standard" then adjust it back to 2.4 after the calibration?

I also have a 2.35 screen, so I use a 16:9 profile for Sport/Gaming which has a much smaller diagonal than the 2.35 I use for movies, would I run all of these calibrations at the 2.35 size, even though the patterns appear to be 16:9 when I tried it this way? I would think the spillover on the screen would mess things up.

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post #3914 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
Anyone? Please!
Did you have the meter facing the projector rather than the screen? Does autocal show the meter close to the right side of the “yellow box”?
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post #3915 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Did you have the meter facing the projector rather than the screen? Does autocal show the meter close to the right side of the “yellow box”?
Yes, I've done this many times before. The Spider is facing PJ at the right side of the yellow box, and my Calman meters (C6 and i1 Pro 2) facing screen.
Could this be the sign of the aging lamp or bad spider?

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post #3916 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
Yes, I've done this many times before. The Spider is facing PJ at the right side of the yellow box, and my Calman meters (C6 and i1 Pro 2) facing screen.
Could this be the sign of the aging lamp or bad spider?
I doubt an aging lamp can cause this. After all, it was behaving quite well before autocal.

As for the Spyder, you should be able to check it out in Calman (I believe some versions of Calman do support Spyder5).Have you tried re-installing autocal to see if it makes any difference?
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post #3917 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Had my first calibration go seemingly successfully last night, although I think I need to run it one more time with getting the meter on the right side of the box, as I think I was on the left. Missed that part.

A couple questions I came up with are:

1)Am I allowed to change the file names from the cals to something I can actually know the difference between?
I don't think Autocal is picky about the file names, but just to be sure, you can always copy the files instead of renaming them.

Quote:
2) I did two cals, one for 1080P profile, which I use the "Reference" color profile for, however this puts the filter in place so should I not change this to standard as well or leave it on reference if that is what I plan to use?
For SDR Rec709 or Rec709F would be more accurate than Reference, unless you prefer the slight oversaturation of the latter.

Quote:
3) Since the recommended gamma for the panny 820 and its tone mapping feature is 2.4 with SDR bt2020, would I still correct gamma to "standard" then adjust it back to 2.4 after the calibration?
Manni recommends calibrating using Normal gamma, but you can use 2.4 if you want. However, that would mean that the low end will potentially be less accurate. Also, you would lose the verification at the end (a straight diagonal line)

Quote:
I also have a 2.35 screen, so I use a 16:9 profile for Sport/Gaming which has a much smaller diagonal than the 2.35 I use for movies, would I run all of these calibrations at the 2.35 size, even though the patterns appear to be 16:9 when I tried it this way? I would think the spillover on the screen would mess things up.
Spillover on the screen makes no difference since the Spyder faces the projector. Any secondary reflections will be negligible compared with direct light from the projector.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-11-2018 at 01:52 PM.
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post #3918 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

Spillover on the screen makes no difference since the Spyder faces the projector. Any secondary reflections will be negligible compared with direct light from the projector.
Thanks Dom. I guess the second part of that question thought would be that the screen size is much bigger for the 2.35 image so would that require its own gamma cal? My guess is it too doesn't matter, but I'd love confirmation.

Also, I know it is hugely frowned upon to use an unverified spyder to do a color AND gamma auto calibration..BUT after 1200 hours wouldn't a slightly-off meter and auto cal be better off than just flying on in the dark? I ran a gamma only, and then a gamma and color calibration and at least from a very short initial impression, it seemed to me that the gamma and color cal actually looked slightly better.

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post #3919 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Thanks Dom. I guess the second part of that question thought would be that the screen size is much bigger for the 2.35 image so would that require its own gamma cal? My guess is it too doesn't matter, but I'd love confirmation.
If there are some differences betwen your sports and movie viewing (other than size), such as colour filter, CMD, lamp power, you will need to have separate gamma calibrations. Size by itself does not afffect gamma calibration.
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post #3920 of 4163 Old 12-11-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If there are some differences betwen your sports and movie viewing (other than size), such as colour filter, CMD, lamp power, you will need to have separate gamma calibrations. Size by itself does not afffect gamma calibration.
Thanks again! My only differences for viewing now with the panny 820 is 1080P content for movies and sports being the same, which I did one cal for, then 4k/SDR bt2020 viewing which i did a separate one for. I need to do an additional one for gaming with CMD off, low latency on, but haven't gotten to that one yet. I am also going to toy with clear black as I was previously using it on high, but think I need to get that back to "Low" for all profiles.

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post #3921 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I doubt an aging lamp can cause this. After all, it was behaving quite well before autocal.

As for the Spyder, you should be able to check it out in Calman (I believe some versions of Calman do support Spyder5).Have you tried re-installing autocal to see if it makes any difference?
I tried reinstalling Calman and the result of the measurement is the same.
I also tried comparing the Spyder 5 with C6 on Calman (although there are only three profiled for Spyder and all of them are for LCD, so I checked them on my computer monitor and chose the same profile for both meters).
I thinks the results are more or less
C6 vs C6
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...mentid=2495770

C6 (left) vs Spyder 5 (right)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...mentid=2495772

I'm not really sure how to interpret these. The white is more or less Ok. The colors look bad, however the corresponding color bars are not far away.
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post #3922 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
I'm not really sure how to interpret these. The white is more or less Ok. The colors look bad, however the corresponding color bars are not far away.
What I suggested was to measure the greyscale using both meters; if the Spyder shows similar results as the C6 then the weird behavior is due to autocal and not the meter
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post #3923 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What I suggested was to measure the greyscale using both meters; if the Spyder shows similar results as the C6 then the weird behavior is due to autocal and not the meter
Spyder doesn't have a projector profile in Calman. I guess, I can create one by my i1 Pro 2, but then this will correct the deficiencies of the Spyder.

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post #3924 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
Spyder doesn't have a projector profile in Calman. I guess, I can create one by my i1 Pro 2, but then this will correct the deficiencies of the Spyder.

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The profile may change the relative magnitudes of each curve, but it won’t change the shape of the individual RGB curves. Whats weird with you previous measurement was the shape (tracking through pout the range), which has nothing to do with profiles.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-12-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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post #3925 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The profile will affect the entire curve, it won’t change the shape of the individual RGB curves. What”s weird with you previous measurement was the shape (tracking through pout the range), which has nothing to do with profiles.
I tried loading init file back into the PJ and measured. The gamma was below target as expected. With quite a bit of color temp adjustment the grayscale looks good, but gamma is still below the target even with 2.4 correction value and -5 picture tone.
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post #3926 of 4163 Old 12-12-2018, 10:06 PM
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I did my first gamma only profile last night using standard and normal. The gamma correction showed that the gamma which had quite a bit of droop was corrected well.

I verified it with Lightspace so I thought I was a winner until I noticed that the brightness had dropped. I measured this and it had gone down from 40 Ft lamberts to 31. A very bad result!

Any clues as to why this might have happened?

Also, what are the screen size and viewing distance on the settings screen used for. I noticed the next day that I had inadvertently put 35 instead of 5 metres into as the viewing distance

Could this have caused my issue?
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post #3927 of 4163 Old 12-13-2018, 02:58 AM
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I just used gamma 2 2 to do autocal. Should i redo with standard gamma instead or its ok?

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post #3928 of 4163 Old 12-13-2018, 03:12 AM
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I just used gamma 2 2 to do autocal. Should i redo with standard gamma instead or its ok?

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Gamma 2.2 is the same as Normal. You should get a straight line at the end of calibration.

EDIT: The above statement is for standard calibration. If you create a custom profile with a different base gamma then that becomes Normal.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-16-2018 at 05:10 AM.
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post #3929 of 4163 Old 12-16-2018, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
I tried loading init file back into the PJ and measured. The gamma was below target as expected. With quite a bit of color temp adjustment the grayscale looks good, but gamma is still below the target even with 2.4 correction value and -5 picture tone.
I got a hold of another Spyder and rerun the calibration with great results.
The differences were obvious from the very first run of the autocal software. There were much less corrections than with my Spyder (all in relation to the fresh factory settings with init calibration):
Old Spyder:


New Spyder:


Actually, the autocal did a very good job overall (colors and gamma), and there were very little corrections needed in the Calman. After creation of the corrected color profile this is the result:
Gamma normal:



Gamma 2.4 tweaked to BT1886:


This all brings a question: what heppened to my Spyder which worked fine before? I kept it in the stock box with antimoisture granules (whatever they are called in English), in the dark drawer at room temperature. How come it became so inaccurate?

I also experimented with the gamma settings in the custom color profiles. I created the corrected color profiles with 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 gamma factors and with otherwise same coordinates.
It turns out that this setting does affect the gamma readings. If I select the color profile with gamma factor 2.4 and select the stock Normal gamma in the PJ, it reads gammas around 2.5. I didn't have time to experiment with various combinations, but this is something I'm planning to do.

Another interesting fenomenon that I noticed is that after color autocal the picture was actually slightly brighter than before. This was evident when after the color autocal you run the sequence again and on the meter placement screen the meter turns out to be outside of the yellow box closer to the PJ.
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Last edited by Mojito; 12-16-2018 at 03:58 AM.
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post #3930 of 4163 Old 12-16-2018, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
I also experimented with the gamma settings in the custom color profiles. I created the corrected color profiles with 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 gamma factors and with otherwise same coordinates.
It turns out that this setting does affect the gamma readings. If I select the color profile with gamma factor 2.4 and select the stock Normal gamma in the PJ, it reads gammas around 2.5. I didn't have time to experiment with various combinations, but this is something I'm planning to do.
If you create a custom colour profile with 2.4 gamma then that becomes Normal, for that profile.The calibrated gamma can be slightly higher, presumably to offset an subsequent gamma droop.

I have not tested what happens if you select a “numeric” gamma in that situation, i.e., whether selecting “gamma 2.2” will give you 2.4.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-16-2018 at 06:21 AM.
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