JVC Calibration Software V6 For 2015 Models (X9000,X7000,X5000,RS400,RS500,RS600) - Page 132 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3931 of 4164 Old 12-16-2018, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you create a custom gamma with 2.4 gamma then that becomes Normal.The calibrated gamma can be slightly higher, presumably to offset an subsequent gamma droop.
What I was talking about is custom color profile, not custom gamma. When you create a profile, besides coordinates there's a gamma parameter. And it affects the gamma readings even if Normal gamma is selected in the PJ.

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post #3932 of 4164 Old 12-16-2018, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito View Post
What I was talking about is custom color profile, not custom gamma. When you create a profile, besides coordinates there's a gamma parameter. And it affects the gamma readings even if Normal gamma is selected in the PJ.

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That’s what I meant. Typo corrected.

BTW, I actually mentioned that option in my earlier post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56344298

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-16-2018 at 07:03 AM.
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post #3933 of 4164 Old 12-16-2018, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s what I meant. Typo corrected.

BTW, I actually mentioned that option in my earlier post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56344298
Ah, I see. That makes sense.
Any idea what may have caused the Spyder to become so bad?

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post #3934 of 4164 Old 12-20-2018, 03:55 PM
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Many of the posts in this thread, which now dates back 3 years, reference uploading 709 and 2020 color profiles. Can it be assumed that units manufactured in mid-2018 would already have the latest and best of these, or not?
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post #3935 of 4164 Old 12-20-2018, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
Many of the posts in this thread, which now dates back 3 years, reference uploading 709 and 2020 color profiles. Can it be assumed that units manufactured in mid-2018 would already have the latest and best of these, or not?
Units manufactured in mid 2018 are not the model numbers that this thread was set up to talk about.
the rs-X00 series early on did not include a BT2020 profile. later models do.
None of the current models have a 709 profile out of the box. the new models releases sometime soon do.

there are no "versions" of the profiles, they are fixed descriptions of color primaries for a color space. If they are on the projector there is no need to update them.

Specific to JVC, the color profile also contains a flag to enable a physical color filter or not if the projector has one.
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post #3936 of 4164 Old 12-20-2018, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
None of the current models have a 709 profile out of the box.
Actually, all the unused User Profiles are preset to Rec709. I don't know why JVC didn't label one as such. They seem to prefer Standard.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-20-2018 at 06:44 PM.
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post #3937 of 4164 Old 12-20-2018, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple X View Post
Units manufactured in mid 2018 are not the model numbers that this thread was set up to talk about.
the rs-X00 series early on did not include a BT2020 profile. later models do.
None of the current models have a 709 profile out of the box. the new models releases sometime soon do.

there are no "versions" of the profiles, they are fixed descriptions of color primaries for a color space. If they are on the projector there is no need to update them.

Specific to JVC, the color profile also contains a flag to enable a physical color filter or not if the projector has one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Actually, all the unused User Profiles are preset to Rec709. I don't know why JVC didn't label one as such. They seem to prefer Standard.
Thanks Purple X and, as always, Dominic.

Last edited by jwhart; 12-21-2018 at 06:54 AM.
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post #3938 of 4164 Old 12-21-2018, 07:52 PM
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I have questions regarding colour space


I have Rec709, P3 and BT2020 with custom gamma curves loaded up and it looks fantastic (thanks Dominic!)
But I'm reading that some UHD content is graded using Rec709. I thought all HDR content was using BT2020? So how do I know what colour space to use when watching something?.. And does the P3 gamut ever get used?

And btw, I've got my HDR custom gamma curves loaded in and looking great. But is there any reason to use a custom gamma curve for SDR content?
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post #3939 of 4164 Old 12-21-2018, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netgod2002 View Post

But I'm reading that some UHD content is graded using Rec709. I thought all HDR content was using BT2020? So how do I know what colour space to use when watching something?..
I have seen some UHD contents in Rec709, but they are not HDR, just 4K SDR.

[/quote]And does the P3 gamut ever get used?[/quote]
They are used in cinemas but not in contents available to consumers.

Quote:
And btw, I've got my HDR custom gamma curves loaded in and looking great. But is there any reason to use a custom gamma curve for SDR content?
The ST.2084 PQ curves are used only for HDR. I sometimes manually create a custom curve to finetune gamma 2.2 or 2.4, e.g., to improve the greyscale tracking especially at low levels where autocal may have some residual errors.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-22-2018 at 06:51 AM.
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post #3940 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 02:16 PM
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Is there any way to get DI working with HDR? I noticed that it doesn't do anything when HDR is on.
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post #3941 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Is there any way to get DI working with HDR? I noticed that it doesn't do anything when HDR is on.
It depends on your projector model. The DI does not work in the HDR mode for the previous two generations (RSx00 and RSx20) unless you use HD Fury Linker to disable auto HDR detection. It does work for the latest models (RSx40).

Note that it’s not related to JVC calibration software.
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post #3942 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It depends on your projector model. The DI does not work in the HDR mode for the previous two generations (RSx00 and RSx20) unless you use HD Fury Linker to disable auto HDR detection. It does work for the latest models (RSx40).

Note that it’s not related to JVC calibration software.
I have RS500. The HD Fury Linker, does it strip HDR off or it only fulls Projector that its not HDR which will make it enable DI. In other words, would I still see the same image quality with all the crunchiness/wide colors along with DI?

I had my projector calibrated about a year ago. Chad did the calibration. He uploaded a custom curve as well. I think things have moved along a lot more now and there are better custom curvess?

BTW, the HDR looks awesome on my 130" 2.40 screen. Screen has 1.3 gain and very neutral. I don't see any artifacts. With HDR on high lamp and Iris on 0, image has tons of brightness (2100 hours on bulb).
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post #3943 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
I have RS500. The HD Fury Linker, does it strip HDR off or it only fulls Projector that its not HDR which will make it enable DI. In other words, would I still see the same image quality with all the crunchiness/wide colors along with DI?

I had my projector calibrated about a year ago. Chad did the calibration. He uploaded a custom curve as well. I think things have moved along a lot more now and there are better custom curvess?

BTW, the HDR looks awesome on my 130" 2.40 screen. Screen has 1.3 gain and very neutral. I don't see any artifacts. With HDR on high lamp and Iris on 0, image has tons of brightness (2100 hours on bulb).
If you already have the Linker with the RS500, and are using the custom curves instead of Gamma D, the DI should be working as the HDR metadata would be blocked by the Linker.
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post #3944 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you already have the Linker with the RS500, and are using the custom curves instead of Gamma D, the DI should be working as the HDR metadata would be blocked by the Linker.
Sorry for the confusion. I don't have Linker. I was asking what would happen if I buy and use Linker. Does the mage still look the same as it does without Linker besides the fact that Iris will work?
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post #3945 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 08:02 PM
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Yes. You still have to manually choose the custom curve.
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post #3946 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Sorry for the confusion. I don't have Linker. I was asking what would happen if I buy and use Linker. Does the mage still look the same as it does without Linker besides the fact that Iris will work?
The Linker “traps” the HDR metadata but does not affect the actual video stream.
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post #3947 of 4164 Old 12-24-2018, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Sorry for the confusion. I don't have Linker. I was asking what would happen if I buy and use Linker. Does the mage still look the same as it does without Linker besides the fact that Iris will work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Yes. You still have to manually choose the custom curve.
Or you can buy a Vertex and use the RS232 output to automatically switch to the proper input based upon the metadata.
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post #3948 of 4164 Old 12-25-2018, 06:04 AM
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True, and that is the setup I am still running using Manni’s guide and code.

Costs more (maybe $300 versus a used Linker, only way to get them, for half that or even 1/3 that?) but is a much more automated tool — once set up.

It was a bit of a beast to get it all going at first.... but assistance here got me over the hump.
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post #3949 of 4164 Old 12-25-2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
So apparently, the Spyder5 has a lens cap on it....

I knew there was a 'simple' answer here - didn't expect it to be me, though!!

I could delete the post, but guess I'll leave it here so others can learn from my stupidity....
I'm stupid too and this just helped me Thx!
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post #3950 of 4164 Old 12-25-2018, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The Linker “traps” the HDR metadata but does not affect the actual video stream.
HDR is supposed to bring higher contrast (black goes blacker) and bright scenes go brighter where applicable. When you say "traps", you mean that it strips out the HDR metadata. In other words, an HDR becomes a 4K without HDR but with wide color gamut?
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post #3951 of 4164 Old 12-25-2018, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
HDR is supposed to bring higher contrast (black goes blacker) and bright scenes go brighter where applicable. When you say "traps", you mean that it strips out the HDR metadata. In other words, an HDR becomes a 4K without HDR but with wide color gamut?
Whether you call it “trap” or “strip”, the metadata does not affect the actual video.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-25-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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post #3952 of 4164 Old 12-26-2018, 02:46 AM
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If i'm using a custom HDR gamma profile (one of Dominic's to be exact), do I need to use something like DVS HDR-10 patterns to fix brightness and contrast clipping? Because the current profile is being clipped on colour, brightness and contrast. If I adjust to suit using brightness, contrast and colour controls, the picture looks rather flat as opposed to the original untouched profile...
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post #3953 of 4164 Old 12-26-2018, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netgod2002 View Post
If i'm using a custom HDR gamma profile (one of Dominic's to be exact), do I need to use something like DVS HDR-10 patterns to fix brightness and contrast clipping? Because the current profile is being clipped on colour, brightness and contrast. If I adjust to suit using brightness, contrast and colour controls, the picture looks rather flat as opposed to the original untouched profile...
Actual hard clipping of White should occur at 1200 nits or 4000 nits, depending on the curve. However, soft clipping is used to compress the entire highlight range of 100-4000 nits below the projector peak nits (say 135 nits), so the gradation near the top end may not clearly visible, when the peak nits is low or the Reference White is relatively high (I use 25 nit, others may use as low as 15).

Colour clipping will occur much earlier, especially for Red. I believe all curves do that. It’s a limitation of these projectors. You can try Manni’s Or Jav’s curves to confirm.

The Brightness control may be adjusted up a few clicks (typically 1 to 3), while making sure Black is not elevated. The lowest patterns may not be visible. The Arves curves (.conf) can be further adjusted using BBO, but the JVC curves (.jgd) are limited to the Brightness control.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-26-2018 at 06:08 AM.
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post #3954 of 4164 Old 12-27-2018, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Actual hard clipping of White should occur at 1200 nits or 4000 nits, depending on the curve. However, soft clipping is used to compress the entire highlight range of 100-4000 nits below the projector peak nits (say 135 nits), so the gradation near the top end may not clearly visible, when the peak nits is low or the Reference White is relatively high (I use 25 nit, others may use as low as 15).

Colour clipping will occur much earlier, especially for Red. I believe all curves do that. It’s a limitation of these projectors. You can try Manni’s Or Jav’s curves to confirm.

The Brightness control may be adjusted up a few clicks (typically 1 to 3), while making sure Black is not elevated. The lowest patterns may not be visible. The Arves curves (.conf) can be further adjusted using BBO, but the JVC curves (.jgd) are limited to the Brightness control.
Im still confused.First off, what is BBO? At the moment I'm clipping right at about 4000 nits (for HDR) and black I need to adjust brightness to about +20 before the bar next to reference black is flashing.. This is using your Simu_HDR_85_4000_002 curve which I don't think I can get much better than that until I'm a bit more knowledgeable. I tried for about 3 hours last night to get something better in Arve's tool but the results were slightly worse. So your curve is optimal for the time being.

And for 1080p. Is the process the same? Should I adjust brightness/contrast using the projector controls using an SDR test disk to resolve all the way down to reference black or is this not the right way to go about things?
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post #3955 of 4164 Old 12-27-2018, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netgod2002 View Post
Im still confused.First off, what is BBO? At the moment I'm clipping right at about 4000 nits (for HDR) and black I need to adjust brightness to about +20 before the bar next to reference black is flashing.. This is using your Simu_HDR_85_4000_002 curve which I don't think I can get much better than that until I'm a bit more knowledgeable. I tried for about 3 hours last night to get something better in Arve's tool but the results were slightly worse. So your curve is optimal for the time being.

And for 1080p. Is the process the same? Should I adjust brightness/contrast using the projector controls using an SDR test disk to resolve all the way down to reference black or is this not the right way to go about things?
BBO is the parameter in Arve’s Tool for adjusting black level. There’s no equivalent for the JVC .jgd curves.

If you have to adjust Brightness to +20 that indicates a range mismatch. It appears that the source is using RGB full range. I thought you previously had the problem but rectified it (post 3886).
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post #3956 of 4164 Old 12-28-2018, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
So I've done lots of tests today and here are my results:

1) The reference color profile on our models is the same as DCI-P3-F, so there is no need to use one slot with DCI-P3F.
2) Instead of calculating the new BT2020 targets from the rec-709 offsets as per Chad's procedure, it is possible to significantly improve the results in BT2020 by calculating specific offsets for the BT2020 profile using P3 targets (we can't use BT-2020 targets because our PJs can't reach BT2020, they reach 65-70% of BT2020 at best).

So here is the procedure I followed:

- I updated Chad's spreadsheet with DCI-P3 targets instead of Rec-709 target. This means that you can calculate offsets with the filter on and at the targets that matter most for current content, i.e. P3.
- I updated Chad's workflow so that it defaults to DCI-P3 / D65 / Power Gamma 2.2

Once you have followed Chad's procedure (or my slightly modified version) to calculate the rec-709 offsets and created the rec-709 custom profile to correct the meter errors at rec-709, load my DCI-P3 workflow, and use the gamut luminance layout to create the offsets for DCI-P3. To do this, do the following:

- In your HDR user preset, select Reference, 6500K, gamma normal on the projector in high lamp, iris fully open. This is important as this will give you the widest possible P3 gamut. Low lamp reaches a narrower gamut, so even if you use low lamp to calculate the offsets select high lamp, iris open. This will make sure that the errors are mostly meter errors and not too much native gamut limitations.
- Run a gamma 33 points+color autocal
- Open the DCI-P3 workflow and measure the current user mode (still on reference, 6500K, gamma normal, high lamp, iris fully open). This will give you the reference reading at various levels of luminance. Copy the RGBW xy just as you did for rec-709, and copy them in my updated DCI-P3 spreadsheet.
- Once all the RGBW data is copied, the speadsheet will give you your new targets for DCI-P3 and BT2020.
- If you want, create a custom profile for DCI-P3. There is little to no consumer content using this, so it's not necessary to do so. However, it is interesting to create one as you can then import and select the new DCI-P3 profile and compare the readings with the reference (non-custom-corrected) one. You should see significant improvements.
- Create a custom BT2020 profile using the new BT2020 targets. This is the profile you'll use for UHD Bluray HDR etc. It's the same as the one you created following Chad's procedure, except that it should give you improved results in BT2020.
- Open a BT2020 / D65 workflow, select the new BT2020 profile in the PJ, select P3 Sweeps (P3 within BT2020) with a normal gamma and check the results. You should notice a significant improvement.
- Select your custom gamma, set 100% white to D65 and measure your actual BT2020 calibration using the multiplier used in your selected Arve curve. Gamut and gamma/greyscale should be fairly close. I attach my final results.
- If you need to use a different setting than HDR High lamp / iris full open, run an autocal using reference/6500k/normal, then select the custom BT2020 profile, custom gamma and set WB to D65 at 100%. There is no need to recalculate a profile in low lamp, it would most likely lead to gamut shrinking.

I did more tests with my Spyder 5 / Spyder 4 and while the Spyder 5 is more accurate facing the screen, it's less accurate facing the projector, which leads to more (unnecessary) correction and a significant loss of brightness (118nits vs 132nits in low lamp HDR, 170nits vs 186nits in high lamp HDR, once fully calibrated to D65). So my last attempt at replacing my Spyder4 by a Spyder5 is over. The Spyder5 is going back as I would never use it given the brightness drop it causes.

Hope this helps. Not much time to follow up on this, but I'm sure those who are fluent in Autocal will pick up on this and will be able to help.

Following this new procedure, I get a color volume of around 98% of P3 in both low lamp and high lamp, so I might go on using low lamp unless I really need the extra pop. The fan noise and heat in high lamp is unpleasant, especially in summer!

Let us know if this improves your BT2020 results or not!
I tried calibrating BT2020 using this procedure (@Manni01;) with no success. This is the first time I attempted calibrating HDR/BT2020 on the projector. I think I followed all the steps, but the result that came out as a custom profile was worse than the original Reference profile in terms of error. The stock BT2020 tracked much better than either of those (even though I didn't autocal it).
Things that may have affected this which I did at my own choice (as they were not clearly described in the manual):
1) gamma selction - I did all measurements using gamma normal as I didn't know how to insert the target gamma corresponding to my custom gamma into Calman.
2) pattern generator settings in Calman. I used RGB Limited 10 bit with HDR and BT2020 turned on.
3) Wen creating the color porfile there was a choice to apply normal or wide filter. I used wide, but made a normal version as well. Neither gave good results.
So, please let me know where I could have screwed it up and whether there is an updated method that I missed, which would give better results?

Last edited by Mojito; 12-28-2018 at 07:28 AM.
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post #3957 of 4164 Old 12-29-2018, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
BBO is the parameter in Arve’s Tool for adjusting black level. There’s no equivalent for the JVC .jgd curves.

If you have to adjust Brightness to +20 that indicates a range mismatch. It appears that the source is using RGB full range. I thought you previously had the problem but rectified it (post 3886).

I've re-tested.
Brightness is +13 to resolve down to bar ref black otherwise I can resolve down to bar 9 (3.2 %) with brightness set to 0.

Contrast is -10 for 4000 nits


Does that seem normal to you?

The source is a nvidia shield set to BT2020 at 10bit and the media is the 4k UHD test patterns (DVS ultra HDR patterns) which the JVC confirms as a source input.

Last edited by netgod2002; 12-29-2018 at 06:19 AM.
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post #3958 of 4164 Old 12-29-2018, 06:30 AM
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I've re-tested.
Brightness is +13 to resolve down to bar ref black otherwise I can resolve down to bar 9 (3.2 %) with brightness set to 0.

Contrast is -10 for 4000 nits


Does that seem normal to you?

The source is a nvidia shield set to BT2020 at 10bit and the media is the 4k UHD test patterns (DVS ultra HDR patterns) which the JVC confirms as a source input.
No, the Brighness control shouldn’t require more than 3 or 4 clicks. As mentioned previously, most likely you have a range mismatch between the Shield and the JVC.

You should not reduce the Contrast when using custom curves. Note that a range mismatch can also affect the high end.
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post #3959 of 4164 Old 12-30-2018, 07:31 AM
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Hello, im trying to load the gamma curves and seem to be stuck, the jvc software say, could not setup a LAN connection.
I have the rs400, everything is connected, im not to savy at this kind of stuff

In the setting page the check button yields a Connection NG, which I interpreted as NoGood ????
I hit the Set button and supposedly connected the PJ
I entered the pj serial # also, screen size and viewing distance.....

ip address in the software settings is the same as the ip of the pj

I did have an issue where i had to activate the ethernet port on my laptop and it shows as active, should i deactivate wifi to check the laptops connectivity????

Im lost :0/ as you can see Lol

As of Feb 20th still looking for a Marantz SR7010
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Last edited by kgveteran; 12-30-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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post #3960 of 4164 Old 12-30-2018, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
Hello, im trying to load the gamma curves and seem to be stuck, the jvc software say, could not setup a LAN connection.
In some cases “cold booting” (temporarily disconnecting the power cord) can help with connection issues.
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