JVC Calibration Software V6 For 2015 Models (X9000,X7000,X5000,RS400,RS500,RS600) - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
So one should select the reference profile, set the gamma to D and do gamma and colour calibration? With the parameters all set to zero? Then go to user 1 and select the Rec2020 profile and gamma D and do colour again? With parameters set to zero? And then set the parameters where they belong?
You shouldn't be using gamma D when calibrating with the Autocal as the PJ is not in HDR and the JVC Autocal doesn't support HDR during calibration. You should set the gamma you use with SDR BT2020, with all the gamma settings set to zero. Gamma D will be calibrated along with the other presets, but it shouldn't be selected during the autocal. What should be selected is the lamp mode and filter mode you are going to use.

Gamma D should only be used with HDR content, when the PJ is in HDR mode.

Again, I have recommended to set gamma manually to a standard gamma in your HDR BT2020 settings, so that when SDR content is played the correct gamma curve is applied. When HDR content is detected, Gamma D will be selected automatically.

Please read the new procedure, I've detailed all the settings and all the user modes I use.
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post #482 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 12:23 PM
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For those interested, amazon has a lighting deal on the spyder5. The pro is selling for $106 and some change
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post #483 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
No, I mean as per my recent procedure that you need to select a standard profile during gamma calibration that will be as close as possible to the profile/filter combination you will actually use.

So in user1 I have my rec-709-NF profile selected when playing blurays, when calibrating gamma+color I will temporarily select the standard colour profile (preset closest to rec-709 that doesn't use the filter), then I will select my rec-709NF custom profile and run a colour only autocal.

In user 2 I have my bt2020 custom profile selected when playing UHD Bluray in HDR, so when calibrating gamma+color I will temporarily select the reference colour profile (preset closest to BT2020 that does use the filter), then I will select my bt2020 custom profile and run a color only autocal.

You have to select a factory colour profile to be able to run gamma, but you want to select one that's the closest to the one you'll actually use.

Again all this is detailed in my updated procedure.
Thank you, Manni, for taking the time to explain the process to us novices. I think I am getting confused as to when to run gamma and color as opposed to running color only. I plan on spending some quality time calibrating tonight so I really want to get it right this time. I was under the impression that I only had to run gamma once, such as when doing the standard color profile for REC 709. After that, I just run the color calibration for each custom profile, such as 709NF, BT2020 etc. However, based on your examples above, it seems that I should rum both gamma and color for each of the REC 709 and the BT2020 profiles. Is that correct?

Thanks Manni
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post #484 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Thank you, Manni, for taking the time to explain the process to us novices. I think I am getting confused as to when to run gamma and color as opposed to running color only. I plan on spending some quality time calibrating tonight so I really want to get it right this time. I was under the impression that I only had to run gamma once, such as when doing the standard color profile for REC 709. After that, I just run the color calibration for each custom profile, such as 709NF, BT2020 etc. However, based on your examples above, it seems that I should rum both gamma and color for each of the REC 709 and the BT2020 profiles. Is that correct?

Thanks Manni
No, you have to re-run gamma every time you change lamp mode or filter setting, and you have to run color every time you change iris range (if you want the autocal to be as precise as it can be over the whole iris range). This is done using the standard color profile (for rec-709) or the reference colour profile (for bt2020). Then you have to run the color autocal for each custom color profile once.
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post #485 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
No, you have to re-run gamma every time you change lamp mode or filter setting, and you have to run color every time you change iris range (if you want the autocal to be as precise as it can be over the whole iris range). This is done using the standard color profile (for rec-709) or the reference colour profile (for bt2020). Then you have to run the color autocal for each custom color profile once.
Ahhhhhh, I get it now. Thanks a bunch, Manni.
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post #486 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You shouldn't be using gamma D when calibrating with the Autocal as the PJ is not in HDR and the JVC Autocal doesn't support HDR during calibration. You should set the gamma you use with SDR BT2020, with all the gamma settings set to zero. Gamma D will be calibrated along with the other presets, but it shouldn't be selected during the autocal. What should be selected is the lamp mode and filter mode you are going to use.

Gamma D should only be used with HDR content, when the PJ is in HDR mode.

Again, I have recommended to set gamma manually to a standard gamma in your HDR BT2020 settings, so that when SDR content is played the correct gamma curve is applied. When HDR content is detected, Gamma D will be selected automatically.

Please read the new procedure, I've detailed all the settings and all the user modes I use.
where is the new procedure??
Is it post 1 of this thread??
thanks
dan

Dan
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post #487 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post
Hello IMDave,
does the spyder express have screw for tripod
as well as the ambient luminosity sensor present in the other probes?
Thank's
Jean-Jacques
Yes, the EXPRESS has the tripod mount and front luminosity sensor ( not that I have tested it, because I do not plan on running the Environment adjustments).
It is exactly the same unit as the PRO and ELITE models.
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post #488 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 03:11 PM
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[quote=brbecker;44477345]
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbecker View Post

Manni01 I moved the S5 about 10.5ft from the projector. The gamma calibration now completes with no errors. The software skips color calibration. Is suppose to do that even though it's selected in the software? Do you have to run color calibration after you upload the results of the calibration? I have posted the results of the first calibration of gamma. Are the results acceptable? Is the blue line the before and the straight white line the after cal. results?


Thanks for your guidance...
brbecker, there is something decidedly wrong with the colour temperature of your "Natural" preset. It should be 6500k, but yours is showing well over 7000k. Looking at the last graph, you are nowhere near D65. Have a look at my graphs in post #467.
Now I, too, am looking for feedback as to whether my Autocal is "on the money", but at least I know I'm in the ballpark.
Maybe go into the projector menu settings and check how your "Natural" is set up. You might have it set at 7500k instead of 6500k?
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post #489 of 4238 Old 06-03-2016, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D_B_0673 View Post
where is the new procedure??
Is it post 1 of this thread??
thanks
dan
Post 2 is the old procedure.

Post 9 and 10 is the updated procedure.

It's all in post 1, so starting by reading post 1 and all the recommended documents / links REALLY helps
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post #490 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Yes, the EXPRESS has the tripod mount and front luminosity sensor ( not that I have tested it, because I do not plan on running the Environment adjustments).
It is exactly the same unit as the PRO and ELITE models.
Well, I will buy one soon.
Thank IMDave

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post #491 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Yes, the EXPRESS has the tripod mount and front luminosity sensor ( not that I have tested it, because I do not plan on running the Environment adjustments).
It is exactly the same unit as the PRO and ELITE models.
Can you confirm that the Express works with the JVC autocal? Did you get good results out of it?
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post #492 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Post 2 is the old procedure.

Post 9 and 10 is the updated procedure.

It's all in post 1, so starting by reading post 1 and all the recommended documents / links REALLY helps
thanks
dan

Dan
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post #493 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 04:41 AM
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When is "Screen Adjustment Mode" info used?
http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/projector/screen/
The Auto Cal manual says to "disable screen mode" before calibration but the associated images/pictures in the manual do not show a dropdown or box to disable it.

What is it for?
Thanks
dan

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post #494 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Can you confirm that the Express works with the JVC autocal? Did you get good results out of it?
Hoping you can tell me Manni.
See my post from the previous page #467
Certainly the projected image from a BR looks very good, post cal.
Having said that, I think my image was pretty good at the 170hr mark on the lamp, and I wouldn't say the difference between "calibrated" and "uncalibrated" was night and day.
Certainly, I'm glad I didn't spend $A300 for the experiment. Just happy ( placebo effect???) to think that the X7000 is now calibrated to the extent the "law of diminishing returns" applies and I won't be taking it any further. ( Famous last words, I know
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post #495 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
Well good news .
Picked up my EXPRESS model Spyder 5 this afternoon.
Firstly. A big thank you to Manni for making this thread idiot proof.
I can confirm the Express works with v7, so save your $$$ folks.
What I can't confirm is whether it is an accurate unit or not.
I took some screen grabs of the gamma and colour calibrations , and will try and upload them for some feedback when I get more time.
Sorry I missed that post


This looks as good as it can be with the Autocal, so without another meter/software to check that's as good as it gets.


170 hours isn't that much for drastic changes, do another autocal in about 500 hours, you should see more benefits.


Great to know the Express works just as well.


Good job (just re-watched Hancock recently)
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post #496 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
This looks as good as it can be with the Autocal, so without another meter/software to check that's as good as it gets.
Thanks Manni, I was really hoping you were going to say that.
Couldn't have done it without this thread and your Rec 709-NF profile.
Many thanks.
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post #497 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 07:43 PM
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Just a comparison to indicate that my Spyder 5 Express is at least precise ( can't confirm it's accuracy for 100% white D65 at this stage).
In this case , User 2 is my Profile for 3D ( High lamp,iris at -6, Rec 709NF ), and User 1 is my Profile for BR ( Low lamp, iris -12 , Rec 709NF). Damn close.
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post #498 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 09:11 PM
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If importing your init file does it normally take forever? I'm going on an hour now
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post #499 of 4238 Old 06-04-2016, 11:14 PM
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I re-ran my auto-cal last night and I think the results are infinitely better than my first try. In fact, I dare say it’s about the best image I have ever been able to achieve. Having done it a second time, and with Manni’s patient coaching, I now realize how terribly wrong I did it the first time.

My gamma no longer has that weird “S” curve. I can now watch Deadpool (HDR) without that sub-burnt look that I previously observed in some scenes. And while Black Crush is greatly diminished, I can still see it to some extent (in Deadpool anyway and practically non-existent on Revenant. Don’t know what it is about the the Revenant but that movie looks the best of all.

I started off running a full gamma and color calibration in NATURAL Picture Mode, Standard Color Profile, 6500K Pre-set and Normal Gamma. All processing turned off, Low Lamp, Iris manual and fully open. After saving the results, I ran a color-only calibration for the various Iris settings (-5, -7, -9, -11, -13). I also ran an identical color-only calibration in USER 2 for Manni’s REC709 NF custom profile, at the same Iris intervals.

I then ran a full gamma and color calibration for SDR BT2020 in USER 3, REFERENCE Color Profile, 6500 K pre-set, still in Low Lamp, followed by a color- only calibration for USER 3, BT2020 Color Profile, at the various Iris settings.

For Natural, REC 709 NF, and SDR BT2020, I am using a custom 2.4 Gamma correction with +2 on dark gamma for a BT1886 curve.

After completing the above, I then switched to HIGH LAMP mode, Iris fully open, and ran a full Gamma and Color Calibration with User1, REFERENCE Color Profile, Normal Gamma, Manual Iris, all processing turned off. After saving I ran a color-only calibration of User 1, JVC’s BT2020 Custom Color Profile, Manual Iris full open, then at -5 and then at -7 etc.

When I was done with the JVC software/autocal/Spyder 5, I switched over to Chromapure/iD3 Pro and calibrated 100% white. As you can see in the attached images, the DE was around 3 so it didn’t take much to tweak it down to .3 DE.

Can't say for sure if my Spyder is a good sample so I will leave that to Manni to pronounce it either way. Like I said, my image is spectacular so it can’t be all bad. The only thing I would want to improve right now is to correct the small bit of occasional black crush----which I can only detect in Deadpool so maybe it's just that movie.

I am attaching some screen shots for the usual suspects to review. There are two things left for me to do:
(1) Figure out how to integrate my HD FURY so I can try SDR BT2020 and
(2) Figure out how to use the Sony Test Patterns and determine where to clip white in HDR.

Kevin said it’s pretty simple using the apple app so we shall see.

A hearty thank-you to Manni and all the other helpful folks on these forums. I think a lot of us Novices would have given up on our BCMs if it weren’t for such folks.


Regards,
Rick
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post #500 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 01:59 AM
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Is this a deal worth mentioning on the Spyder5?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/dea...bration-system
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post #501 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 02:21 AM
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Is this a deal worth mentioning on the Spyder5?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/dea...bration-system
Considering they're selling the PRO for $US20 less than the base model Express, that is a great deal.
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post #502 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I re-ran my auto-cal last night and I think the results are infinitely better than my first try. In fact, I dare say it’s about the best image I have ever been able to achieve. Having done it a second time, and with Manni’s patient coaching, I now realize how terribly wrong I did it the first time.

My gamma no longer has that weird “S” curve. I can now watch Deadpool (HDR) without that sub-burnt look that I previously observed in some scenes. And while Black Crush is greatly diminished, I can still see it to some extent (in Deadpool anyway and practically non-existent on Revenant. Don’t know what it is about the the Revenant but that movie looks the best of all.

I started off running a full gamma and color calibration in NATURAL Picture Mode, Standard Color Profile, 6500K Pre-set and Normal Gamma. All processing turned off, Low Lamp, Iris manual and fully open. After saving the results, I ran a color-only calibration for the various Iris settings (-5, -7, -9, -11, -13). I also ran an identical color-only calibration in USER 2 for Manni’s REC709 NF custom profile, at the same Iris intervals.

I then ran a full gamma and color calibration for SDR BT2020 in USER 3, REFERENCE Color Profile, 6500 K pre-set, still in Low Lamp, followed by a color- only calibration for USER 3, BT2020 Color Profile, at the various Iris settings.

For Natural, REC 709 NF, and SDR BT2020, I am using a custom 2.4 Gamma correction with +2 on dark gamma for a BT1886 curve.

After completing the above, I then switched to HIGH LAMP mode, Iris fully open, and ran a full Gamma and Color Calibration with User1, REFERENCE Color Profile, Normal Gamma, Manual Iris, all processing turned off. After saving I ran a color-only calibration of User 1, JVC’s BT2020 Custom Color Profile, Manual Iris full open, then at -5 and then at -7 etc.

When I was done with the JVC software/autocal/Spyder 5, I switched over to Chromapure/iD3 Pro and calibrated 100% white. As you can see in the attached images, the DE was around 3 so it didn’t take much to tweak it down to .3 DE.

Can't say for sure if my Spyder is a good sample so I will leave that to Manni to pronounce it either way. Like I said, my image is spectacular so it can’t be all bad. The only thing I would want to improve right now is to correct the small bit of occasional black crush----which I can only detect in Deadpool so maybe it's just that movie.

I am attaching some screen shots for the usual suspects to review. There are two things left for me to do:
(1) Figure out how to integrate my HD FURY so I can try SDR BT2020 and
(2) Figure out how to use the Sony Test Patterns and determine where to clip white in HDR.

Kevin said it’s pretty simple using the apple app so we shall see.

A hearty thank-you to Manni and all the other helpful folks on these forums. I think a lot of us Novices would have given up on our BCMs if it weren’t for such folks.


Regards,
Rick
You're welcome, and I'm glad you got results you're happy with.

A few comments:

Your Spyder seems to be pretty accurate as far as 100% white is concerned. A dE of 3 at 100% white compared to the i1d3 is pretty good, although there is no way to know how accurate the i1d3 is, could be less, could be more than that, impossible to know without a reference meter. However, the i1d3s are usually very close so it's in the ballpark.

Your rec-709NF profile in custom 2 measures a bit undersaturated on the green-red side. Again it's impossible to know if it's the meter or the calibration. It shouldn't be bothering you as it's very minor, and is probably less visible than the slight oversaturation (and likely worse tracking) in standard.

Re using the Integral to get BT2020, it should be as simple as setting it to custom mode 10 and setting the JVC to your SDR BT2020 user mode (at least with the Panny, no idea with the Sammy), but if you have any issues post in the main thread or in the HD Fury Integral thread for help.

Re iris positions, I've stopped to do all of these because in my opinion the improvement doesn't justify the time spent. Plus you are wasting time recalibrating color for iris settings whihc are too close to each other, for example -5 and -7, likely overriding one with the other. Harry identified four ranges, 0, -4, -8, 12 and I used to us 0, -5, -10, -15. Neither are fool proof on the new JVCs, because the biggest difference is between -3 and -14, so whether you do -15 or -12 you won't be accurate if you move the iris above or below -13. I've given up on this. I just estimate the iris setting / lamp mode I need in each mode (-3 low lamp in SDR rec 709 or SDR bt2020, -7 high lamp in SDR) and I only autocal that setting. I'll redo an autocal when I need to open the iris in a few hundred hours, or every 500 hours or so. This change is detailed in post 9 & 10. Of course nothing should stop you from running a color autocal for each range, but at least only do it once per actual range (which you will have to identify on the new models), not so close that you override the last one.

I did try to look for ranges last time and apart from the big jump between -14 and -13 (which is when the dual iris kicks out for the first time I think), I couldn't find any consistent boundary, and the errors where quite low anyway, I doubt they would be visible. That's why I gave up doing this. which I don't find sustainable now that we have not one (SDR rec-709) but three modes (SDR Rec-709, SDR BT2020, HDR BT2020) to calibrate.

Anyway, good job!
Dave Vaughn, IMDave and atabea like this.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-05-2016 at 02:55 AM.
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post #503 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 03:10 AM
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Considering they're selling the PRO for $US20 less than the base model Express, that is a great deal.
And $40 Aussie dollars less than the cheapest Express I can find online, including shipping. I have just ordered one - thanks erkq!
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post #504 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 05:03 AM
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I re-ran my auto-cal last night and I think the results are infinitely better than my first try. In fact, I dare say it’s about the best image I have ever been able to achieve. Having done it a second time, and with Manni’s patient coaching, I now realize how terribly wrong I did it the first time.
My gamma no longer has that weird “S” curve
Rick
How can you check the shape of Gamma D? The software only shows the corrected gamma for the one selected when running the calibration, no? Or is the image supposed to show an average of all gammas at the same time?
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post #505 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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How can you check the shape of Gamma D? The software only shows the corrected gamma for the one selected when running the calibration, no? Or is the image supposed to show an average of all gammas at the same time?
You can't measure gamma D without a pattenrn generator able to switch the PJ in HDR mode and a way to use an EOTF correct for a projector, which calibration software haven't sorted out yet (Calman should hopefully come up with something this month so we can use 5.7 and the Integral with a projector).

I assume atabea has used Chromapure with his i1d3 to read the Gamma D curve in SDR, which isn't relevant.

The Gamma D / PQ gamma curve can't be read without the correct tools. AFAIK, they are not avsilable for projectors yet.
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post #506 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 09:21 AM
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Thanks, Manni, for your (always) informative reply. The next time I run auto-cal I will remember not to spend so much time on too many Iris settings. I find that is the most tedious part of the process. Otherwise, I am ecstatic with the results.
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Quick question, i finally got back to my pre calibrated settings and am now going to do the gamma, under natural, standard, 6500k,gamma normal. The filter is normal. Is this where i turn filter off? If so how, I'm double clicking it but not getting a drop down option.
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post #508 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 10:10 AM
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Quick question, i finally got back to my pre calibrated settings and am now going to do the gamma, under natural, standard, 6500k,gamma normal. The filter is normal. Is this where i turn filter off? If so how, I'm double clicking it but not getting a drop down option.
I believe if it says "normal" it is already off so no need to try to turn anything off. Maybe wait for Manni to confirm.
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post #509 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quick question, i finally got back to my pre calibrated settings and am now going to do the gamma, under natural, standard, 6500k,gamma normal. The filter is normal. Is this where i turn filter off? If so how, I'm double clicking it but not getting a drop down option.
Yes, filter normal means filter off.

You don't need to touch the filter setting, just leave it at whatever your user mode needs.
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post #510 of 4238 Old 06-05-2016, 12:42 PM
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I believe if it says "normal" it is already off so no need to try to turn anything off. Maybe wait for Manni to confirm.
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Yes, filter normal means filter off.

You don't need to touch the filter setting, just leave it at whatever your user mode needs.
thank you guys.

here are my new results, hopefully better then the first go around.
so first three are the typical gamma, color, white after doing the 33 point calibration, per phase 1. natural, standard setting
then i did phase 2w/ 0, -5, -10, -15 cmd off/low no attached pics
my final thumbnail is my final color calibration, user4, 709nf, 6500k, 2.4 +2, cmd low, -10 iris

hopefully better then last time
Attached Thumbnails
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My theater build : Roll-In Reels Cinema (7.2.4 atmos theater)
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