JVC Calibration Software V6 For 2015 Models (X9000,X7000,X5000,RS400,RS500,RS600) - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1256Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #541 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 11:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 775 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quick question: I use my Samsung UHD Player strictly for HDR stuff and I use my Samsung F7500 strictly for blu-ray. My UHD player is hooked up directly to the RS500 via HDMI 1 and the F7500 directly to HDMI 2. When I ran the JVC autocal, I had the JVC on HDMI 1 throughout the whole process. What I was wondering is whether the calibration for the REC709NF, which is on HDMI 2, would still apply. Just want to know if I have to re-run the process on their respective/dedicated inputs.

Thanks
atabea is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #542 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,349
Mentioned: 359 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5637 Post(s)
Liked: 5959
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Quick question: I use my Samsung UHD Player strictly for HDR stuff and I use my Samsung F7500 strictly for blu-ray. My UHD player is hooked up directly to the RS500 via HDMI 1 and the F7500 directly to HDMI 2. When I ran the JVC autocal, I had the JVC on HDMI 1 throughout the whole process. What I was wondering is whether the calibration for the REC709NF, which is on HDMI 2, would still apply. Just want to know if I have to re-run the process on their respective/dedicated inputs.

Thanks
AFAIK the profiles are not input dependent but some settings, like the HDMI settings and possibly others are, so you might want to double check that every setting and user setting uses the correct options.

There shouldn't be any need to re-run the JVC Autocal.
atabea likes this.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-10-2016 at 02:03 PM.
Manni01 is offline  
post #543 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 11:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,724
Mentioned: 252 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12696 Post(s)
Liked: 10318
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Quick question: I use my Samsung UHD Player strictly for HDR stuff and I use my Samsung F7500 strictly for blu-ray. My UHD player is hooked up directly to the RS500 via HDMI 1 and the F7500 directly to HDMI 2. When I ran the JVC autocal, I had the JVC on HDMI 1 throughout the whole process. What I was wondering is whether the calibration for the REC709NF, which is on HDMI 2, would still apply. Just want to know if I have to re-run the process on their respective/dedicated inputs.

Thanks
You should be calibrated, but like Manni said, setting like MPC and such have to be manually set per input.
atabea likes this.
Mike Garrett is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #544 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 12:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 775 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Thanks, Manni and Mike, that's good to know.
atabea is offline  
post #545 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 04:43 PM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Manni01,


I just completed a new calibration following your updated procedure. The Bluray calibration look great! Could you tell me if the BT2020 attachments show a successful calibration..thanks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20160610_164755.jpg
Views:	107
Size:	232.5 KB
ID:	1490305   Click image for larger version

Name:	20160610_164811.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	253.4 KB
ID:	1490313   Click image for larger version

Name:	20160610_164824.jpg
Views:	89
Size:	239.3 KB
ID:	1490321   Click image for larger version

Name:	20160610_165623.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	239.4 KB
ID:	1490329  
brbecker is offline  
post #546 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 05:42 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1485 Post(s)
Liked: 2307
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbecker View Post
Manni01,


I just completed a new calibration following your updated procedure. The Bluray calibration look great! Could you tell me if the BT2020 attachments show a successful calibration..thanks.
Your gamma is not correct. You need to redo it and make sure the meter is placed on the further most point of the rectangular box during the calibration.
Manni01 likes this.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #547 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 05:52 PM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
Your gamma is not correct. You need to redo it and make sure the meter is placed on the further most point of the rectangular box during the calibration.

Dave it was..?????
brbecker is offline  
post #548 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dave Vaughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 6,005
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1485 Post(s)
Liked: 2307
Manni is the expert here, but I know it shouldn't be an S-curve. It should be along that line going up from left to right. You may want to retry and double-check the settings that Manni provides.
mariob33 and Manni01 like this.

David Vaughn Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)
Dave Vaughn is offline  
post #549 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 06:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mariob33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Holbrook, Ma
Posts: 1,971
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Send a message via Skype™ to mariob33
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbecker View Post
Manni01,


I just completed a new calibration following your updated procedure. The Bluray calibration look great! Could you tell me if the BT2020 attachments show a successful calibration..thanks.
your gamma is off should be a straight line..two possibilities,
1. perhaps because your trying to calibrate against GAMMA D. I am not sure this is possible.
2. Make sure you didn't leave the dynamic iris on.

In search of video bliss...
mariob33 is online now  
post #550 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 06:51 PM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
Manni is the expert here, but I know it shouldn't be an S-curve. It should be along that line going up from left to right. You may want to retry and double-check the settings that Manni provides.
Thanks Dave that's what I thought...
brbecker is offline  
post #551 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 06:52 PM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post
your gamma is off should be a straight line..two possibilities,
1. perhaps because your trying to calibrate against GAMMA D. I am not sure this is possible.
2. Make sure you didn't leave the dynamic iris on.

mariob33 dynamic iris was off I think...will check...
brbecker is offline  
post #552 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 06:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 775 Post(s)
Liked: 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by brbecker View Post
mariob33 dynamic iris was off I think...will check...
That "S" curve happened to me too and it is definitely wrong. I think I got that incorrect result when I selected Gama D while calibrating the BT2020 profile. you have to select something like normal gamma for it to work
atabea is offline  
post #553 of 4238 Old 06-10-2016, 07:28 PM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
That "S" curve happened to me too and it is definitely wrong. I think I got that incorrect result when I selected Gama D while calibrating the BT2020 profile. you have to select something like normal gamma for it to work
From Manni a couple of pages back:
" You can't measure gamma D without a pattenrn generator able to switch the PJ in HDR mode and a way to use an EOTF correct for a projector, which calibration software haven't sorted out yet (Calman should hopefully come up with something this month so we can use 5.7 and the Integral with a projector).

I assume atabea has used Chromapure with his i1d3 to read the Gamma D curve in SDR, which isn't relevant.

The Gamma D / PQ gamma curve can't be read without the correct tools. AFAIK, they are not avsilable for projectors yet."

Manni01 likes this.
IMDave is offline  
post #554 of 4238 Old 06-11-2016, 02:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,349
Mentioned: 359 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5637 Post(s)
Liked: 5959
What's wrong with the Gamma curve is the target (green line) which should also follow an S shape, but the JVC software isn't sophisticated enough to change the shape of the gamma curve when measuring gamma D, so the target always remain a straight line.

The calibration might be fine, but it's hard to say as we can't compare the target (green) to the after calibration measurement (white). Also, I doubt the measurements are correct as I don't think the Autocal is able to switch the PJ to HDR.

For this reason I suggest to use a standard gamma curve when calibrating and measuring. The gamma D curve will be corrected just like the others, but we don't have a way to check it yet as the EOTF for projectors isn't available yet. I understand Calman will have PJ specific EOTF for projectors soon.

In this case before running a new autocal you might just run a log only with a standard gamma selected to see if the white line follows the green line (it should be very close to it). If it is, there is no need to redo the gamma calibration.

Last edited by Manni01; 06-11-2016 at 02:15 AM.
Manni01 is offline  
post #555 of 4238 Old 06-11-2016, 06:11 AM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
What's wrong with the Gamma curve is the target (green line) which should also follow an S shape, but the JVC software isn't sophisticated enough to change the shape of the gamma curve when measuring gamma D, so the target always remain a straight line.

The calibration might be fine, but it's hard to say as we can't compare the target (green) to the after calibration measurement (white). Also, I doubt the measurements are correct as I don't think the Autocal is able to switch the PJ to HDR.

For this reason I suggest to use a standard gamma curve when calibrating and measuring. The gamma D curve will be corrected just like the others, but we don't have a way to check it yet as the EOTF for projectors isn't available yet. I understand Calman will have PJ specific EOTF for projectors soon.

In this case before running a new autocal you might just run a log only with a standard gamma selected to see if the white line follows the green line (it should be very close to it). If it is, there is no need to redo the gamma calibration.



Ok thanks...I'll setup the S5 meter again today and check...thanks.
Dave Vaughn likes this.
brbecker is offline  
post #556 of 4238 Old 06-11-2016, 06:12 AM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDave View Post
From Manni a couple of pages back:
" You can't measure gamma D without a pattenrn generator able to switch the PJ in HDR mode and a way to use an EOTF correct for a projector, which calibration software haven't sorted out yet (Calman should hopefully come up with something this month so we can use 5.7 and the Integral with a projector).

I assume atabea has used Chromapure with his i1d3 to read the Gamma D curve in SDR, which isn't relevant.

The Gamma D / PQ gamma curve can't be read without the correct tools. AFAIK, they are not avsilable for projectors yet."



Thanks..I'll try again today.
Dave Vaughn likes this.
brbecker is offline  
post #557 of 4238 Old 06-12-2016, 12:53 PM
Member
 
brbecker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Lawrence,KS,USA
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post
your gamma is off should be a straight line..two possibilities,
1. perhaps because your trying to calibrate against GAMMA D. I am not sure this is possible.
2. Make sure you didn't leave the dynamic iris on.

mariob33 you were correct during the BT2020 calibration Gamma D had been selected instead of standard. I redid the gamma calibration using standard gamma then did a color only calibration of BT2020 and the straight line from lower left to upper right was a straight line with a color temp. of D6500.
IMDave likes this.
brbecker is offline  
post #558 of 4238 Old 06-13-2016, 12:10 AM
Senior Member
 
mpyw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Hi,

One question, how do I backup the INIT file before I run the autocal?
I try the export but it shows only 3 types, jpd, prof and gamma for each profile type i.e. cinema, standard & natural

To be or NOT to be......YOU are WHO you ARE
mpyw is offline  
post #559 of 4238 Old 06-13-2016, 01:41 AM
Senior Member
 
IMDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
Hi,

One question, how do I backup the INIT file before I run the autocal?
I try the export but it shows only 3 types, jpd, prof and gamma for each profile type i.e. cinema, standard & natural
The INIT file is created and saved into the same folder as the first Autocal file. You need to run Autocal . There is no option to save INIT until the first Autocal is run.
As Manni has said, just make sure you put it in a safe place, as not to accidentally delete it.
alebonau, mpyw and Manni01 like this.
IMDave is offline  
post #560 of 4238 Old 06-14-2016, 07:40 PM
Senior Member
 
sthompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 219
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I saw a few mentions of the Spyder 5 Pro on sale, looks like the deal is over?

Between the express and the pro versions for the JVC, any recommendations on which one to get?
sthompson is offline  
post #561 of 4238 Old 06-15-2016, 04:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
muzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: MA. USA
Posts: 4,549
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Express supposedly works fine.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
muzz is offline  
post #562 of 4238 Old 06-16-2016, 11:10 PM
Senior Member
 
mpyw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 32
OK, I've got the Express, run the autocal, the gamma is perfect straight line, and saving the color calibration in a few diff settings.....

Then I check using HCFR software, the RGB graph show blue a little high on low y and red a little low on high y and the DeltaE shows 4.1....how can I improve that?

To be or NOT to be......YOU are WHO you ARE
mpyw is offline  
post #563 of 4238 Old 06-17-2016, 07:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
lpnaz480's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: az
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 54
hi manni
just making sure but this setting is for the blurays like fifth element and other sony releases right?

Min4K in user4 for Mastered in 4K blurays
Colour profile: x.v.color
Color Temp: n/a
Gamma: n/a
Iris: -14
Lamp: Low

My theater build : Roll-In Reels Cinema (7.2.4 atmos theater)
lpnaz480 is offline  
post #564 of 4238 Old 06-17-2016, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nathan_h's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 9,330
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2730 Post(s)
Liked: 1961
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
OK, I've got the Express, run the autocal, the gamma is perfect straight line, and saving the color calibration in a few diff settings.....

Then I check using HCFR software, the RGB graph show blue a little high on low y and red a little low on high y and the DeltaE shows 4.1....how can I improve that?
Are you using the same meter for both situations?
nathan_h is offline  
post #565 of 4238 Old 06-17-2016, 09:10 AM
Senior Member
 
mpyw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
OK, I've got the Express, run the autocal, the gamma is perfect straight line, and saving the color calibration in a few diff settings.....

Then I check using HCFR software, the RGB graph show blue a little high on low y and red a little low on high y and the DeltaE shows 4.1....how can I improve that?
Are you using the same meter for both situations?
Yes using the same meter spyder 5
mpyw is offline  
post #566 of 4238 Old 06-17-2016, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,349
Mentioned: 359 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5637 Post(s)
Liked: 5959
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
OK, I've got the Express, run the autocal, the gamma is perfect straight line, and saving the color calibration in a few diff settings.....

Then I check using HCFR software, the RGB graph show blue a little high on low y and red a little low on high y and the DeltaE shows 4.1....how can I improve that?
You can use HCFR to set 100% white to D65 and work on the gamma and color temp manually, but you will only get it closer to the Spyder5. Unless you notice something off, I would just enjoy the projector. If you want to really improve things, then you need a known accurate meter, at the minimum an i1d3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpnaz480 View Post
hi manni
just making sure but this setting is for the blurays like fifth element and other sony releases right?

Min4K in user4 for Mastered in 4K blurays
Colour profile: x.v.color
Color Temp: n/a
Gamma: n/a
Iris: -14
Lamp: Low
Yes, looks good
Just make sure you're in YCC using standard levels not RGB and that all the devices in the chain support xvcolor. The JVC should display x.v.color in the info screen.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro
Manni01 is offline  
post #567 of 4238 Old 06-17-2016, 11:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
lpnaz480's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: az
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes, looks good
Just make sure you're in YCC using standard levels not RGB and that all the devices in the chain support xvcolor. The JVC should display x.v.color in the info screen.
did you run an autocal w/ in your user4 xvcolor?

My theater build : Roll-In Reels Cinema (7.2.4 atmos theater)
lpnaz480 is offline  
post #568 of 4238 Old 06-18-2016, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Manni01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,349
Mentioned: 359 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5637 Post(s)
Liked: 5959
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpnaz480 View Post
did you run an autocal w/ in your user4 xvcolor?
Never tried as you can't calibrate any of the presets. Gamma and color temp are not selectable and x.v.color isn't a gamut in itself, it's relative to rec-709. So I assume x.v.color uses the standard colour profile as a reference, but there is no way to check as you can't measure or calibrate to x.v.color. The gamma and colour temp are calibrated with any other user setting using the same lamp/cmd/iris setting, so I just use the same settings as my rec-709 user mode and it looks fine like that.

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro
Manni01 is offline  
post #569 of 4238 Old 06-18-2016, 11:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
lpnaz480's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: az
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Never tried as you can't calibrate any of the presets. Gamma and color temp are not selectable and x.v.color isn't a gamut in itself, it's relative to rec-709. So I assume x.v.color uses the standard colour profile as a reference, but there is no way to check as you can't measure or calibrate to x.v.color. The gamma and colour temp are calibrated with any other user setting using the same lamp/cmd/iris setting, so I just use the same settings as my rec-709 user mode and it looks fine like that.
thanks again!

My theater build : Roll-In Reels Cinema (7.2.4 atmos theater)
lpnaz480 is offline  
post #570 of 4238 Old 06-19-2016, 10:00 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Guys, just in case...
Suppose someone (me) has lost the pre-calibration backup file of his rs49, cause the HD of his pc was formatted....

Suppose the same someone (me, again...) is having GREAT problems to run the autocal cause nothing works good (my spyder4 has problems with the green... verified it by confronting the measures of my spyder4 with the measures of my xrite... After the autocal, to set the white at 80 IRE, i have to cut off 25 points of green)

... And again suppose that another someone (me, of course) is going to trash the projector through his windows...

Now, the question is:
do you think that a backup init file of another vpr (same model, of course... rs49) could save me?
And, just in case, maybe you know someone that can help me?

Again, just in case...
Thanks from an italian vpr addicted...
jack_pls is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off