Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I also had an optical block failure back in the day on my rear projection Sony tv. The symptoms are totally different between the rear projection units and the front projector issues being discussed on this thread.
I wouldn't say they are totally different...there are similarities.
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post #32 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I wouldn't say they are totally different...there are similarities.
My old SXRD rear projection TV developed a huge purple stripe down the middle of the screen. Others had something similar, I think sometimes in green. I think at other times the optical block would just stop working. Were there other issues that more closely resembled what we are seeing on this thread with the rear projection optical blocks? Maybe I just don’t remember all the details?
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post #33 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I also had an optical block failure back in the day on my rear projection Sony tv. The symptoms are totally different between the rear projection units and the front projector issues being discussed on this thread.
The old rear projection units got the green blob. Mine did that.
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post #34 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I wouldn't say they are totally different...there are similarities.
Not IMO. My first RP SXRD developed 'purple blacks' (which is exactly what it sounds like) within about a year or ownership. They replaced the optical block. The replacement had 'green blob'.
Sony replaced it after a fight. Second one was fine for years but eventually developed color temp issues. ' Warm 2' looked extremely cold. I gave that TV away when Sony agreed to provide a discounted replacement.

I never had what I would have described as a loss of contrast but I didn't own meters back then and had no means to measure.
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post #35 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I seem to remember rear projection SXRD failing much sooner after release. My A2000 developed problems almost immediately. My A3000 lasted for about four years. When did Sony release their first SXRD front projector? 2008? Why haven't they all dropped dead by now?
I'm guessing, but it could be that the FP's had a much shorter cooling air flow and took longer to manifest.

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post #36 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:37 AM
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For the projector panels that are affected by this issue, does Sony replace it at no charge under warranty?
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post #37 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I also had an optical block failure back in the day on my rear projection Sony tv. The symptoms are totally different between the rear projection units and the front projector issues being discussed on this thread.
I had yellow blob. More had green blob. I think it depended on which filter failed first. My purpose in my post was not to diagnose the problems, but to point out than Sony has had endemic SXRD problems with one kind of PJ in the past, and how they "solved" it.

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post #38 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Not IMO. My first RP SXRD developed 'purple blacks' (which is exactly what it sounds like) within about a year or ownership. They replaced the optical block. The replacement had 'green blob'.
Sony replaced it after a fight. Second one was fine for years but eventually developed color temp issues. ' Warm 2' looked extremely cold. I gave that TV away when Sony agreed to provide a discounted replacement.

I never had what I would have described as a loss of contrast but I didn't own meters back then and had no means to measure.
Contrast loss was the single biggest issue on my SXRD. Chad B, my calibrator, measured the MLL at .023 before I got rid of it (third year). The display was around .009 when I first got it. However, my blacks were also turning blue/purple by the third year as well and it was harder to get the color gamut looking as good with calibration - the gamut was actually shrinking and well below rec 709. I had to switch from standard to wide color gamut which actually was over-saturated, but it was a better compromise. I had no blobs and the overall uniformity was actually very good. So, while the issues are not identical, I think the contrast loss is very similar in a way and goes to highlight the issues Sony has always had with SXRD technology. I think it would be great if they could fix the issue at last as I want to see as much front projection competition and improvement as possible, but I would not take their word it's fixed on some of the newer projectors until it's been verified by reliable independent sources.
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post #39 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 10:57 AM
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Just ordered a light meter with a resolution of 0.01 lux, it's a fairly cheap one but I want to measure my HW50. The current light meter I have has a resolution of 1 lux, for lumen brightness that's ok but for the black level it will not be precise enough.

Ok, my HW50 is on the second lamp (first lamp changed around 2400 hours) and has about 6 hours on second lamp.
The projector is just under three years, 2 months of guarantee left.

When I got the new meter I will follow the directions of that on/off measurement (linked thread in OP).
and use the following settings (correct me if wrong):

High lamp
Iris completely off

Will do an on/off measurement with 100% IRE and 0% IRE clip.
HW50 is not calibrated and using cinema1.

Is the ANSI contrast also relevant?

And what figures should I expect? Anybody got some contrast figures of a new HW50/HW55/HW65?

Will report back when I got my meter (will take some weeks, china-express )
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post #40 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Are any of the latest 4K Projectors from Sony Affected? VPL-VW320ES/ VPL-VW520ES which are the VPL-VW365ES / VPL-VW665ES in the US.
As that is what I am considering purchasing, and if they are I will stay clear. I don't particularly want to deal with Sony on QC issues as it brings back the optical block nightmares I had with my SXRD RPTV.
Just for the record, I owned the SXRD RPTV that was replaced by Sony under the class-action. This issue looks nothing like that one. What some are finding is that the native CR has worsened after at least 500 hours. As you can see from the lack of anyone posting their measurements in this thread, even this issue remains somewhat open for debate. There are plenty of 1100ES owners that still love their projector and have not even bothered to measure native CR. As such, the issue may exist, but the sky doesn't appear to be falling either.
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post #41 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Cine4home got 8000-18000:1 static, depending on configuration.
Can you please post a link to that specific post? It would be helpful to have them all in one place. Thanks.
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post #42 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Contrast loss was the single biggest issue on my SXRD. Chad B, my calibrator, measured the MLL at .023 before I got rid of it (third year). The display was around .009 when I first got it. However, my blacks were also turning blue/purple by the third year as well and it was harder to get the color gamut looking as good with calibration - the gamut was actually shrinking and well below rec 709. I had to switch from standard to wide color gamut which actually was over-saturated, but it was a better compromise. I had no blobs and the overall uniformity was actually very good. So, while the issues are not identical, I think the contrast loss is very similar in a way and goes to highlight the issues Sony has always had with SXRD technology. I think it would be great if they could fix the issue at last as I want to see as much front projection competition and improvement as possible, but I would not take their word it's fixed on some of the newer projectors until it's been verified by reliable independent sources.
David, what you've described is almost exactly the issue that most of the German posters had with their Sony's. Color drift was as bad or even worse than contrast loss. The owners and calibrators could adjust the color but the color gamut was shrinking and all contrast losses were permanent.

I've attached the image I found on their forum for a new HW55 compared to a used HW50 but with a new lamp. Both projectors are supposed to be showing red.
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post #43 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
For the projector panels that are affected by this issue, does Sony replace it at no charge under warranty?
That is the $28,000 question? I suspect that most owners that started with a 1000ES and upgraded are already over the 3 year warranty. And new owners with under 500 hours have not seen any CR loss either. And as I pointed out earlier, there doesn't seem to be a huge number of owners posting their results. Add in the fact that several owners have already sold their projectors (including the OP) and moved on. There just doesn't seem to be that many 1000/1100 owners that will be able to talk to Sony while still under warranty. That could be different with the other models.

I'm still under warranty, so I plan to have this discussion with them, but not until after the holidays. I was hoping to gather info / ammo first.

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post #44 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
David, what you've described is almost exactly the issue that most of the German posters had with their Sony's. Color drift was as bad or even worse than contrast loss. The owners and calibrators could adjust the color but the color gamut was shrinking and all contrast losses were permanent.

I've attached the image I found on their forum for a new HW55 compared to a used HW50 but with a new lamp. Both projectors are supposed to be showing red.
I know this picture and I did a chck on my HC5 on this with a red test pattern. It definetely does not look like the HW50, I dont have the purple tint. I also occasionally watch soccer on my gear and checked the picture with my TV/ipad sky go and it looks mostly the same despite for the fact that green is more satuated on my HC5 (which is normal for this unit out of the box). I will check on my black levels when I am home in january.
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post #45 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Not IMO. My first RP SXRD developed 'purple blacks' (which is exactly what it sounds like) within about a year or ownership. They replaced the optical block. The replacement had 'green blob'.
Sony replaced it after a fight. Second one was fine for years but eventually developed color temp issues. ' Warm 2' looked extremely cold. I gave that TV away when Sony agreed to provide a discounted replacement.

I never had what I would have described as a loss of contrast but I didn't own meters back then and had no means to measure.
If your blacks turned purple, I think it's a safe bet that your contrast went down lol.
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post #46 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Can you please post a link to that specific post? It would be helpful to have them all in one place. Thanks.
http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Cine...1000-C4HEd.htm.

If you aren't using Chrome as your web browser you'll need to put that through google translate to get it to translate to english. Chrome automatically detects foreign languages and translates.
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post #47 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 05:25 PM
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I use Chrome. There's a little lost in translation, but here's the pertinent sentences on native CR. It sounds like their measurements varied somewhat and depended on zoom setting, which makes sense.

"also the zoom and the current position of the optical iris depends. Our first test equipment showed a contrast latitude of 8,000:1 (Iris In / Zoom max) and 18,000:1. Also in the series average, these values ​​largely confirm and only need to be slightly revised downwards. The native contrast of the VPL-VW1000 moves according to the zoom / iris between 7,000:1 and 16,000:1"

The low number of 7,000:1 isn't that far off the 6,500:1 that S&V reported. S&V never mentioned their zoom AFAIK, just high lamp and DI off. I know that zoom setting plays a part in lumen output so it obviously factors into CR measurements as well. I think that any measurements done by owners need to be taken at both zoom min and max, as well as lamp high and low with DI off to get meaningful numbers. Listing of meter and hours should be noted as well.

One other thought that could also affect measurements is the panel setting for either full 4K or UHD. I think that the later is slightly less bright since it's using less pixels. I could be wrong on this, so feel free to correct.

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post #48 of 2171 Old 12-16-2015, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I use Chrome. There's a little lost in translation, but here's the pertinent sentences on native CR. It sounds like their measurements varied somewhat and depended on zoom setting, which makes sense.

"also the zoom and the current position of the optical iris depends. Our first test equipment showed a contrast latitude of 8,000:1 (Iris In / Zoom max) and 18,000:1. Also in the series average, these values ​​largely confirm and only need to be slightly revised downwards. The native contrast of the VPL-VW1000 moves according to the zoom / iris between 7,000:1 and 16,000:1"

The low number of 7,000:1 isn't that far off the 6,500:1 that S&V reported. S&V never mentioned their zoom AFAIK, just high lamp and DI off. I know that zoom setting plays a part in lumen output so it obviously factors into CR measurements as well. I think that any measurements done by owners need to be taken at both zoom min and max, as well as lamp high and low with DI off to get meaningful numbers. Listing of meter and hours should be noted as well.

One other thought that could also affect measurements is the panel setting for either full 4K or UHD. I think that the later is slightly less bright since it's using less pixels. I could be wrong on this, so feel free to correct.
Good idea,

So what we need:

Measurement min zoom / high and low lamp / iris off
Measurement max zoom / high and low lamp / iris off
Light meter used
Lamp hours

Maybe Seegs could add this to the OP so we have comparable results?
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post #49 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 05:33 AM
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I just measured my VW500ES3.

Initial measurement was done at 65h and now I have 545h.
Contrast has not really changed , 47213:1 (at 65h) to 45148:1 (now) (100% on/off, measured reflective from my screen)

Only think I noticed was that the red and green Points of the Color space were slightly off, but nothing that couldn't have been fixed quickly.

I still will have to adjust Gamma (very) Little, as the Close to perfect curve I generated at 65h is no longer such as Close to 2,22, but is a bit off. (see attached photos)

what struggles me most is, that the autocalibration did not Change anything with the slightly off red and green!

When I initially calibrated the device, I first ran the autocalibration and then fine tuned with HCFR (using a Spyder 3)
So my Assumtion was that in case the Colors my drift a bit, that the autocalibration will be able to comensate that.
But I now did measures before and after Autocalibration and there is no difference in the red and green Points.

My biggest concern with the VW500 is the still exisiting issue with the mystically apprearing green dots on the Panel.
I got my vw500 replaced already once and the new one (now have the replacement for 545h/6 months) also show several of these dots...

At the Moment I don't see a contrast issue with mine... let's hope it stays that way.
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post #50 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdiebirdies View Post
I just measured my VW500ES3.

Initial measurement was done at 65h and now I have 545h.
Contrast has not really changed , 47213:1 (at 65h) to 45148:1 (now) (100% on/off, measured reflective from my screen)

Only think I noticed was that the red and green Points of the Color space were slightly off, but nothing that couldn't have been fixed quickly.

I still will have to adjust Gamma (very) Little, as the Close to perfect curve I generated at 65h is no longer such as Close to 2,22, but is a bit off. (see attached photos)

what struggles me most is, that the autocalibration did not Change anything with the slightly off red and green!

When I initially calibrated the device, I first ran the autocalibration and then fine tuned with HCFR (using a Spyder 3)
So my Assumtion was that in case the Colors my drift a bit, that the autocalibration will be able to comensate that.
But I now did measures before and after Autocalibration and there is no difference in the red and green Points.

My biggest concern with the VW500 is the still exisiting issue with the mystically apprearing green dots on the Panel.
I got my vw500 replaced already once and the new one (now have the replacement for 545h/6 months) also show several of these dots...

At the Moment I don't see a contrast issue with mine... let's hope it stays that way.
Birdie,

Can u also measure native (without iris)? And mention high/low lamp?

thx!

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post #51 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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For what it's worth, I measured my 1100ES (which I recently sold) with new SXRD panels and a new optical block that was recently installed (last month) and only 4 hours are on the projector since these were newly installed. I had posted these results a few weeks ago in the 1000ES thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I just measured my unit. This light engine (SXRD panels, optical block, ect) literally has 4 hours on it. The lamp has 176 hours of use, but I doubt this will alter the contrast measurements. High lamp mode was used and I used the internal test patterns found within the service menu of the projector to take peak white and black level readings. The iris was set to off (fully open, no dynamic iris). I measured with my Minolta CL-200 recently calibrated by Tom Huffman of Chromapure. It was placed on a tripod about 6 inches from the lens and the sensor was placed as close to image center as possible:





I measured max zoom (max brightness) and telephoto (max contrast) and got 14,008:1 and 16,888:1 respectively for native on/off contrast.

Guys, if you have a lux meter, please measure your 1100ES/1000ES projectors and let me know what you get. My numbers match up pretty well with many of the pro-reviews out there who've measured new units. If you post please let us know how long you've owned the projector and roughly how many hours you've put on it.
This is within the cine4home measurements, though my max zoom zoom measurement is higher than what cine4home got (7000:1). But it should be noted that only a small difference in either white or black measurement can account for this (seemingly) large difference.
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post #52 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 10:22 AM
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But it should be noted that only a small difference in either white or black measurement can account for this (seemingly) large difference.
And I think that's the problem in the nutshell. Without a completely controlled environment using the same testing criteria (meter, settings, distance, hours, etc.), we could get minor differences, particularly when measuring 0% black, that could produce a wide range of measured native contrast ratios. My 3,700:1 was measured close to the lens, but at regular zoom that I'm currently using for projection.

I need to take it again with min and max zooms and with 4K and UHD aspects and those will also likely affect light output. Not sure when I can to this, but want to also try measuring using my Chroma 5. I'm thinking on waiting until I get at least 100 hours on this new lamp (which would put me at around 2000 hours on the projector) and do a complete calibration.

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post #53 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash3d View Post
Good idea,

So what we need:

Measurement min zoom / high and low lamp / iris off
Measurement max zoom / high and low lamp / iris off
Light meter used
Lamp hours

Maybe Seegs could add this to the OP so we have comparable results?
I think any test should also mention panel aspect if a 4K projector specifying if it was taken using the full 4K panel or UHD. It might be best to take it with both with zoom min and max and lamp high and low. That's only eight measurements with DI off and shouldn't take long to do while you have the meter out.

4K panel / min zoom / low lamp
4K panel / min zoom / high lamp
4K panel / max zoom / low lamp
4K panel / max zoom / high lamp
UHD panel / min zoom / low lamp
UHD panel / min zoom / high lamp
UHD panel / max zoom / low lamp
UHD panel / max zoom / high lamp

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post #54 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
I think any test should also mention panel aspect if a 4K projector specifying if it was taken using the full 4K panel or UHD. It might be best to take it with both with zoom min and max and lamp high and low. That's only eight measurements with DI off and shouldn't take long to do while you have the meter out.

4K panel / min zoom / low lamp
4K panel / min zoom / high lamp
4K panel / max zoom / low lamp
4K panel / max zoom / high lamp
UHD panel / min zoom / low lamp
UHD panel / min zoom / high lamp
UHD panel / max zoom / low lamp
UHD panel / max zoom / high lamp
It should be noted that the internal test patterns are full 4K (4096 x 2160) and are the ones I used for my measurements.
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post #55 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
It should be noted that the internal test patterns are full 4K (4096 x 2160) and are the ones I used for my measurements.
I've been using the AVS disc. I think that full 4K helps CR a little (but maybe not). If so, that could account for some of the differences. Not sure what Ekki or S&V used.

Can you post how you get to the internal test patterns (service menu? if so, post remote key pattern for access along with typical warning)? That might make it easier for all and further eliminate any differences in measurements. It always helps to when trying to compare findings when everyone is using similar baseline, methodology, etc. Using the internal patterns would also eliminate four measurements which helps too.

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post #56 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 01:37 PM
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Definitely not a new issue. I had a lot of problems with my HW10 back in 2009 after something around 400-500 hours of use in the low lamp/high fan mode - specifically because I did not mind the noise and would prefer that it ran cooler.
When new, white balance was relatively neutral and easy to get a flat D65 result with the 2pt controls. After 400+ hours of use, it was impossible to get good results with only 2pt controls. It was not your typical shift due to the bulb aging, but because the response was now so non-linear that it would have required at least 10pt controls to reign it in.
Gamma on that projector only allowed you to select presets, and the "Gamma 3" preset, which I think was the lowest, measured a flat 2.3 gamma out of the box. After 400+ hours of use, that measured 1.98 average - though it was far from a "flat" 1.98 gamma; very non-linear.
Uniformity was relatively good when the projector was new - though not perfect - and it showed significant degradation after 400+ hours of use:

I don't think I have contrast measurements to hand, but it definitely lost contrast as well - in excess of 1000:1 native on/off from what I remember - though that was the least of its problems.
And it obviously won't be an issue for the higher-end SXRD projectors, but that thing never stayed in focus either. If you let the projector warm up, refocused it, and then watched a movie, it would be out of focus after 90 minutes.
Sent it in to Sony and not only was I told that it was "within specifications" but the gloss black finish was all scratched up when I got it back from them.
I took a big loss selling it, because it was only a few months old, and I just couldn't enjoy it in that state.
Buying that piece of crap was the biggest HT mistake I ever made.
I was so put off by the experience that I ended up selling the rest of the projection gear (nice fixed-frame screen, room treatments etc.) and haven't had one since.
I am getting the itch again, but after that experience I'm thinking of going back to single-chip DLP. Never had a problem with them.
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post #57 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
I am getting the itch again, but after that experience I'm thinking of going back to single-chip DLP. Never had a problem with them.
DLP by nature is just better at many things including longevity and is not nearly effected by heat and UV light like LCD-variant technologies can be.
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post #58 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 04:28 PM
 
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DLP by nature is just better at many things including longevity and is not nearly effected by heat and UV light like LCD-variant technologies can be.
Yeah... Call me when three chip reaches the home for under $4k...sadly I've yet to see a single chip DLP that doesn't rainbow me to death.
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post #59 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah... Call me when three chip reaches the home for under $4k...sadly I've yet to see a single chip DLP that doesn't rainbow me to death.
And what DLP units have you seen? LED units do not have visible rainbows and a few color wheel units are extremely good in this regard such as the Marantz 1080p units and the Planar/Runco single chip units.
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post #60 of 2171 Old 12-17-2015, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
And what DLP units have you seen? LED units do not have visible rainbows and a few color wheel units are extremely good in this regard such as the Marantz 1080p units and the Planar/Runco single chip units.

They don't?


Eeeh
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