Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 2177 Old 12-17-2015, 08:04 PM
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Seegs, that Sim Lumis you just got has got you singing DLP praises again! There is a lot to love about DLP's... I've never owned one of the high end ones, though I wouldn't mind trying out a 3 chipper one day.

I wonder if using the AVS Test Disk as a control element might be preferable to all owners going into the Service Menu. A lot of bad things can be done to a projector by accidental misuse of the service menu.
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post #62 of 2177 Old 12-17-2015, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
Seegs, that Sim Lumis you just got has got you singing DLP praises again! There is a lot to love about DLP's... I've never owned one of the high end ones, though I wouldn't mind trying out a 3 chipper one day.

I wonder if using the AVS Test Disk as a control element might be preferable to all owners going into the Service Menu. A lot of bad things can be done to a projector by accidental misuse of the service menu.

Yes, and this is especially true with the 1000ES/1100ES. I've been in plenty of projectors' service menus before, but the amount of things you can change in this unit's service menu is quite large. Most of the settings are pretty cryptic and I highly suggest you do not touch anything unless you know exactly what it's function is for.

To get into the 1000ES/1100ES service menu press enter, enter, left arrow, enter and you will get a prompt asking if you want to enter the service menu. Choose yes. Press menu on your remote and go to info the portion of the regular menu. Here you'll see a whole slew of new sub menus that you can enter. Seeing how I sold my 1100ES last month, I'm going off of memory here on where the internal test patterns are so I hope someone can confirm, or correct me, on where they are. Choose the 'Other' sub menu and press down twice. I believe the text box says "other patterns" or "other patterns enb" or something like that. To show them (there are like 10-15 if I remember correctly) press right to scroll through them. To exit them you need need to press left and go all the way back through them again. You'll find both full field 100% IRE and full field 0% IRE test patterns when you scroll through them. If I remember correctly they are one after another. Remember that if you have the dynamic iris enabled (or a manually selected iris stop) it will still be enabled when you go through these patterns and effect your contrast measurements. So be sure to turn the iris off (iris full open) before you enter the service menu to take your measurements.

To remove the option to get into the service menu, exit the service menu and press enter, enter, left arrow, and enter again and say yes when prompted. And I'll say it again, DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING IN THIS MENU YOU DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND. But it should be noted that you need to save any changes you make and if you don't save them they won't be kept once you exit service menu mode (or power the unit down without saving). But please still be careful. I'm not responsible if you brick your projector...
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post #63 of 2177 Old 12-17-2015, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
Seegs, that Sim Lumis you just got has got you singing DLP praises again! There is a lot to love about DLP's... I've never owned one of the high end ones, though I wouldn't mind trying out a 3 chipper one day.

I wonder if using the AVS Test Disk as a control element might be preferable to all owners going into the Service Menu. A lot of bad things can be done to a projector by accidental misuse of the service menu.
I've always loved a great DLP image. It's just that the higher contrast of these LCoS machines is mighty tempting to get me to turn away from DLP forever. JVC is getting pretty close at tying up the last few loose ends in their image to make it a permanent switch.
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post #64 of 2177 Old 12-17-2015, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They don't?


Eeeh
No, not the LED units. They do sequential color three times faster than the best color wheels and is equivalent to an 18x color wheel. For a 60hz input each color is flashed on screen 360 times (or 1080 individual flashes) per frame. RBE is not visible from these LED units.
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post #65 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 04:42 AM
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Last night I measure my VW1000/11000 with a CA813 light meter.

My current lamp have 450 hours on it but overall the projector have close to 2000 hours.

Result 12 inch from the lens, low lamp, iris off (fully open), mid throw : 6700:1

My FL in low lamp : 21 and 34 in high lamp

Those result are almost the exact match from Sound and Vision review : http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...1zV6HogKpjZ.97


I also check my gamma and color, and they still look pretty good. No gamma drift and no color shrink.

So as far as I am concern, I think I could say that my unit dont suffer from degradation. At least for now.
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post #66 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
No, not the LED units. They do sequential color three times faster than the best color wheels and is equivalent to an 18x color wheel. For a 60hz input each color is flashed on screen 360 times (or 1080 individual flashes) per frame. RBE is not visible from these LED units.
If you're sensitive to it, you can still see rainbows on LED DLPs or Three-Chip DLPs. Most people don't though.
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post #67 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 07:05 AM
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If you're sensitive to it, you can still see rainbows on LED DLPs or Three-Chip DLPs. Most people don't though.
How would one see rainbows on a three-chip DLP? I thought with 3-chippers there are no sequential colors and therefore no rainbows (just like with 3-chip LCD and LCOS).
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post #68 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If you're sensitive to it, you can still see rainbows on LED DLPs or Three-Chip DLPs. Most people don't though.
3 chip DLP projectors don't do sequential color so, no , you can't see rainbows with them. On an LED unit it is extremely unlikely that a person would see them due to how much faster the colors are being flashed on screen.

With that said, let's try and stay on topic here.
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post #69 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 11:36 AM
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That is the $28,000 question? I suspect that most owners that started with a 1000ES and upgraded are already over the 3 year warranty. And new owners with under 500 hours have not seen any CR loss either. And as I pointed out earlier, there doesn't seem to be a huge number of owners posting their results. Add in the fact that several owners have already sold their projectors (including the OP) and moved on. There just doesn't seem to be that many 1000/1100 owners that will be able to talk to Sony while still under warranty. That could be different with the other models.

I'm still under warranty, so I plan to have this discussion with them, but not until after the holidays. I was hoping to gather info / ammo first.
Well I'm one of the exceptions - I bought my 1000ES 6 months ago as a dealer demo with 1687 hours on the chassis (I now have almost 2,000). But I have it in writing from both the dealer and a somewhat high-up-the-chain Sony executive that the unit is under full factory warranty for 3 years from the date of my purchase. Plus they threw in a 5 year third-party warranty on top of it.

So - I will be very curious to see what happens if I measure crap contrast numbers and then try to get Sony to do something about it.

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post #70 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
...JVC is getting pretty close at tying up the last few loose ends in their image to make it a permanent switch.
Nonsense my friend - switching among projectors so frequently clearly serves some psychological purpose for you - whether or not you realize it on a conscious level. If you ever DID find a projector with an image you found completely satisfying you'd be in mental distress very quickly!

You are clearly doomed to the looney bin for life.
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post #71 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 12:40 PM
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And what DLP units have you seen? LED units do not have visible rainbows and a few color wheel units are extremely good in this regard such as the Marantz 1080p units and the Planar/Runco single chip units.
Still there is no affordable DLP with a native CR near 4000:1. As long as TI is sitting on its monopoly and charging ridicoulous prices and licensing fees for their Chips that are basically 5 yeras old (a really long time for IC tech) technology there will be no place for enthusiast homecinemas. We should also skip this discussion as every argument on that topic is well known.
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post #72 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 01:00 PM
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Not to mention that the subject of DLP has nothing to do with this thread at all. I wish the OP would stick to the subject in his own thread. SMH
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post #73 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not to mention that the subject of DLP has nothing to do with this thread at all. I wish the OP would stick to the subject in his own thread. SMH
Did you even bother to read my last post?

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With that said, let's try and stay on topic here.

But I appreciate you adding yet another off topic post to derail the thread even further...
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post #74 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 03:07 PM
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Chronoptimist posted about a bad experience with an old HW10, which is probably not germane to the current discussion (same for any talk about the old RPTV issues really). He closed his post with some comment about getting back into projection with a DLP. Again, nothing to do with this thread, but for some reason YOU found it necessary to segue with an immediate post about the beauty of DLP, which precipitated with several more off topic posts on that subject. I simply pointed out that it would be nice to keep this thread on track concerning a specific issue nicely spelled out in your first post. And no, I missed that sentence in yet another DLP post about doing that, but the fact remains that you lead it astray in the first place.

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post #75 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
Chronoptimist posted about a bad experience with an old HW10, which is probably not germane to the current discussion (same for any talk about the old RPTV issues really). He closed his post with some comment about getting back into projection with a DLP. Again, nothing to do with this thread, but for some reason YOU found it necessary to segue with an immediate post about the beauty of DLP, which precipitated with several more off topic posts on that subject. I simply pointed out that it would be nice to keep this thread on track concerning a specific issue nicely spelled out in your first post. And no, I missed that sentence in yet another DLP post about doing that, but the fact remains that you lead it astray in the first place.
Stop telling me what I can and cannot post about. I really don't care if you want every post in this thread to be 100% on topic. That's not how forums work. Things go astray from time to time. My post about DLP was to say that it doesn't suffer from the same kinds of degradation that LCD-variant technologies suffer from. I felt that it was an important point to make as not everyone knows that. I left the 1000ES thread specifically to get away from you and the hoard who didn't want to hear that the 1000ES wasn't perfect and/or the best projector ever made. It's not. Even when I asked if people could post contrast measurements from their 1000ES units in a thread dedicated to that projector, I was told that I still didn't get the hint. So I left that thread and started a new one. If you don't like it, get out. Do not follow me in here, especially when I left that thread like you asked, and try to run this thread as well. It would polite of you to take the hint except this time it won't be so cryptic and I'll say specifically who I'm talking about...
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post #76 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 04:29 PM
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I actually think some specific information about Sony's past problems with SXRD technology probably are germane to the thread. Also, the HW10 was one of the projectors cited in the German thread as having the color drift/ contrast loss problem. Although these past problems were (supposedly) fixed, I have a feeling there are some things from that past Sony problem that might lead to solving the current dilemma.

(It really is probably my fault that the thread got off topic. I knew from the projector shootout thread that Seegs got a new Sim Lumis so I was commenting on it.)
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post #77 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 07:00 PM
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I left the 1000ES thread specifically to get away from you and the hoard who didn't want to hear that the 1000ES wasn't perfect and/or the best projector ever made. It's not.
Do you honestly continue to claim to have no agenda with statements like that? How can anyone take this thread seriously with such statements? Did it not occur to you that I obviously wouldn't be here if I thought the Sony was perfect. I've said as much in both threads.

I also clearly said that I missed your sentence asking to get back on topic. I only asked for the same thing, but apparently you're not mature enough to recognize that fact or see that you're the one who took it off topic in the first place. That's made even more obvious by your attack posts which continue to do so. Hey, but it's your thread, do with it what you will.

I don't want to continue a pissing contest and am gladly leaving this thread given your attitude. Just do me the courtesy of removing my quote out of your opening post. I don't want to be a part of your apparent subjective witch-hunt. I was hoping for some objectivity, but shame on me for expecting to find that in a thread that you started. Later dude....
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post #78 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do you honestly continue to claim to have no agenda with statements like that? How can anyone take this thread seriously with such statements?
And what agenda do you think I have? I would really like to hear this one. I have no allegiance. I'm not being paid off by JVC, TI, or Sony to say good or bad things about any one of them. I don't write professional reviews for publications that can only survive if net-positive reviews are made and can only receive review samples if net-positive reviews are written and published. I simply go where the best images are. I have no shame in outing an issue when I see one and I especially have no shame in praising a great image when I see one. The 1100ES and other Sony 4K units only have a great image if their stellar contrast remains in tact throughout most of their lifetime. That is why I sold my 1100ES. It will degrade far faster than any other projector I've had here and for the price that's a real issue. My agenda is simple and that's to make more people aware of the issue so that Sony permanently corrects it. And if Sony does and releases an 1100ES-type unit with a fix then one day I may revisit a Sony projector because, as I said before, I go to where the best images are and without that fix, Sony unfortunately does not have one of these as the panels degrade too quickly to keep a great image.
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post #79 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 08:22 PM
 
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In my extremely limited interactions with you Seegs108 you DO come across as having a strong dislike for Sony... Enough that this thread originally seemed a bit like piling on when I first saw it. Our previous conversation was in the Panamorph X-1 thread back in August. You seemed to really focus (which I suppose is interesting choice of words) on the substandard lens in their entry level stuff and refused to believe that other features beyond the lens might appeal to buyers at that price point. While I appreciate that you've had more projectors go through your hands than most folks have it still seemed a bit odd at the time... Like Sony had $&#%ed in your cornflakes or something.
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post #80 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 08:55 PM
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I was tempted to go with a Sony 4k projector for my main system, upgraded from an Acer LED projector. Thank goodness I went with a 80" 4k TV instead to hold off till next years models.
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post #81 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 10:15 PM
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Came across this thread via a friend, funny how almost all threads/topics throughout many forums seem to end up like this with bickering...

Anyhow, I bought an HW40 back in April, calibrated/ measured it a couple of times over the first 150 odd hrs but not since. I now have 510 hrs on it and after reading this thread am obviously quite concerned. A few weeks ago I was thinking of upgrading to the HW65 but read a few horror stories of very poor convergence on several samples which put me off.

There's mention of an unnoficial comment from Sony that the HW65 has been fixed of this early panel degradation, is this just hearsay or is there hard fact somewhere ?.

I'm going to re measure CR and gamma over the holiday period to see if any things changed badly.
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post #82 of 2177 Old 12-18-2015, 10:26 PM
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Came across this thread via a friend, funny how almost all threads/topics throughout many forums seem to end up like this with bickering...

Anyhow, I bought an HW40 back in April, calibrated/ measured it a couple of times over the first 150 odd hrs but not since. I now have 510 hrs on it and after reading this thread am obviously quite concerned. A few weeks ago I was thinking of upgrading to the HW65 but read a few horror stories of very poor convergence on several samples which put me off.

There's mention of an unnoficial comment from Sony that the HW65 has been fixed of this early panel degradation, is this just hearsay or is there hard fact somewhere ?.

I'm going to re measure CR and gamma over the holiday period to see if any things changed badly.
This is what I find confusing, does it take a measurement with a device to tell us that the contrast ration has dropped dramatically ???
At 510 hours (physically measuring aside), what does the contrast look like now on your HW40; with you naked eye ?
But at 510 hours, maybe it hasn't really suffered yet, assuming that its going to happen.

My 300ES is at 480 hours and it still has lots of punch, contrast wise, but I still intend to take a measurement, if for noting else but to satisfy my curiosity.
And then of course again at 1000 hours.
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post #83 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 04:53 AM
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In my experience almost every product has some issues or limitations. Those issues/limitations will drive some product owners crazy and others won't really care. Some people love to come and talk about them and other's rather buy the product and just enjoy it for what it is. Some people love the audio side of HT, some love the video side and some love both. That is why we have these forums, to share ideas and information and make some friends along the way. In my personal opinion, everybody should be able to enjoy AVS in way that makes sense for them and if somebody is here to enjoy it and use it differently than you do, that doesn't make the other person wrong or right. Just like real life, not everyone is going to be best friends and there will be some friction. That is no different than what you see in families, at work and in culture.
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post #84 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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In my extremely limited interactions with you Seegs108 you DO come across as having a strong dislike for Sony... Enough that this thread originally seemed a bit like piling on when I first saw it. Our previous conversation was in the Panamorph X-1 thread back in August. You seemed to really focus (which I suppose is interesting choice of words) on the substandard lens in their entry level stuff and refused to believe that other features beyond the lens might appeal to buyers at that price point. While I appreciate that you've had more projectors go through your hands than most folks have it still seemed a bit odd at the time... Like Sony had $&#%ed in your cornflakes or something.
I don't dislike Sony, I dislike the issues their current projectors suffer from. Contrast loss is a HUGE deal when were talking about how much these projectors cost. And in the context of competitive home theater projectors they seriously lose their value as the panels degrade. Because I want to make more people aware of this issue it's "like Sony had $&#%ed in my cornflakes or something"?

W.Mayer in the $20,000+ forum says Sony may have an announcement on what their plan is on a fix for new projectors so this won't remain an issue. He hinted that we should hear something in the new year.

Regarding the X-1; It's a good lens for the money, but even compared to the UH480 that can be had for a couple hundred dollars more b-stock (as others have pointed out in that thread) it isn't particularly a good lens. Without any CA correction within the lens (and being forced to use a panel alignment feature) it isn't a good choice for a projector in the $3000+ range as it brings one of these projector's performance down a notch in my opinion.
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post #85 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 06:11 AM
 
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I don't dislike Sony, I dislike the issues their current projectors suffer from. Contrast loss is a HUGE deal when were talking about how much these projectors cost. And in the context of competitive home theater projectors they seriously lose their value as the panels degrade. Because I want to make more people aware of this issue it's "like Sony had $&#%ed in my cornflakes or something"?

W.Mayer in the $20,000+ forum says Sony may have an announcement on what their plan is on a fix for new projectors so this won't remain an issue. He hinted that we should hear something in the new year.

Regarding the X-1; It's a good lens for the money, but even compared to the UH480 that can be had for a couple hundred dollars more b-stock (as others have pointed out in that thread) it isn't particularly a good lens. Without any CA correction within the lens (and being forced to use a panel alignment feature) it isn't a good choice for a projector in the $3000+ range as it brings one of these projector's performance down a notch in my opinion.
I have a new in the box projector in the $2000 range. That is quiet, has low input lag for gaming, reasonable placement flexibility, is fairly accurate out of the box making calibration optional, and is still pretty bright in its best mode. I like the motion smoothing options on it (I prefer them to what Epson provides) and I also like Reality Creation when used in moderation (And YES the picture is a bit soft without it). It has all the aspect modes required for use with an anamorphic lens, a three year warranty and a contrast ratio in the 5000:1 range (which is probably already slight overkill in my room). It achieves this ratio without an iris that I might otherwise see open and close. And I get to enjoy the benefits of LCoS without breaking the bank until JVC comes out with true 4K and hopefully brings down input lag a bit.

Despite all of the above being important to ME and nothing else in the price range really having this combination of features you kept going on and on about the terrible lens and attempted to make me feel like I'd made a bad choice. It certainly came across as an irrational hatred of Sony. I appreciate that your vast personal experience can result in a lot of goodness for this forum but trying to use it for good and not evil would be nice. Not everyone wants to buy used equipment or hunt down a B Stock.

I have two more years of warranty and will pursue Sony to the end of the earth IF I have problems. But for now I'm not going to worry about it.
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post #86 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 06:19 AM
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^
This....
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post #87 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 06:21 AM
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Shouldn't the title be "Affects All......" not "Effects All....."

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Last edited by joerod; 12-19-2015 at 06:29 AM.
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post #88 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I have a new in the box projector in the $2000 range. That is quiet, has low input lag for gaming, reasonable placement flexibility, is fairly accurate out of the box making calibration optional, and is still pretty bright in its best mode. I like the motion smoothing options on it (I prefer them to what Epson provides) and I also like Reality Creation when used in moderation (And YES the picture is a bit soft without it). It has all the aspect modes required for use with an anamorphic lens, a three year warranty and a contrast ratio in the 5000:1 range (which is probably already slight overkill in my room). It achieves this ratio without an iris that I might otherwise see open and close. And I get to enjoy the benefits of LCoS without breaking the bank until JVC comes out with true 4K and hopefully brings down input lag a bit.

Despite all of the above being important to ME and nothing else in the price range really having this combination of features you kept going on and on about the terrible lens and attempted to make me feel like I'd made a bad choice. It certainly came across as an irrational hatred of Sony. I appreciate that your vast personal experience can result in a lot of goodness for this forum but trying to use it for good and not evil would be nice. Not everyone wants to buy used equipment or hunt down a B Stock.

I have two more years of warranty and will pursue Sony to the end of the earth IF I have problems. But for now I'm not going to worry about it.
Like I said in my previous post, I mentioned that a projector in the $3000+ range would be a bad choice to combine with the X-1 lens due to optical quality/CA issues. So in your case the use of an X-1 is fine as that projector doesn't qualify for my previous statement. As I've said, for the asking price it's a good lens. Though I'm confused by the way you wrote your post. I don't remember the specific conversation we had. Are you also referring to the lens used in the HW 1080p series Sony units? That lens also has several issues outlined here. If you'd like to continue this conversation, please PM me.

Last edited by Seegs108; 12-19-2015 at 06:35 AM.
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post #89 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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We're getting off topic....again. If anyone else wants to tell me how much they dislike me or some of my other posts, please PM me instead.
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post #90 of 2177 Old 12-19-2015, 07:24 AM
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I plan to measure my new VW1100 once i receive it from Japan and i also plan to re-measure it from time to time to see if the degradation also affects a new unit like mine and if so, at what speed. I`ve never measured contrast or lumens before on any of my past projectors so i`m looking for recommendations on a light meter, any tips for a reasonable cost?

Last edited by BakeApples; 12-19-2015 at 07:28 AM.
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