Sony SXRD Degradation Thread - Effects All Current Sony SXRD 1080p/4K Panels - Page 70 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2071 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
Yeah... I just really want the contrast and pop of the RS640, with the resolution/detail of the VW285/385ES. Sigh...
Funny you should say that. JVC had an RS640 / VW385 stack set up, able to cover one or the other instantly, at CES yesterday. The take away after watching the comparison, with 4K HDR - resolution / detail and motion were a wash, but the RS640 had better color ( it has a BT2020 color filter - the VW385 does not ), and it was brighter than the VW385.
From the comparison Arrow made between the rs640 and the vw760es the difference in sharpness is quite massive. And the vw360es uses exactly the same lens so sharpness should be the same across models. Are you sure your source content was proper 4k and not upscaled?

I'll post the difference in sharpness between Sony and JVC when I find those pictures.

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post #2072 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 04:30 AM
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VERY IMPORTANT NOTE - TO READ FIRST
Any color/brightness/whatever difference between both is not important, as the JVC was calibrated and the Sony wasn't. The only thing you can possibly conclude from these comparisons is the sharpness.

Many thanks to Arrow-AV and Javs for providing these pics.

Here's the sharpness difference between the JVC RS9 eshift 4k and native 4k with the new batch of Sony lenses across the VW760ES/VW360ES/VW260ES
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125497
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125495
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125382


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125382

JVC X9500/RS620:



SONY 760/885ES:



SOURCE FRAME OFF DISC:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125492




DOWNLOAD MASTER PHOTO HERE:
https://photos.smugmug.com/SONY-760-...0%5B760%5D.jpg
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post #2073 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
From the comparison Arrow made between the rs640 and the vw760es the difference in sharpness is quite massive. And the vw360es uses exactly the same lens so sharpness should be the same across models. Are you sure your source content was proper 4k and not upscaled?

I'll post the difference in sharpness between Sony and JVC when I find those pictures.
" Quite massive ". Not from a normal seating distance. The difference between 480p and 4K - that's " quite massive ". These two projectors - " barely perceptable " would be the sharpness difference. Can't see it from a normal viewing difference.

Color and brightness differences - those were " quite massive ".
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post #2074 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 08:58 AM
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Not the Center Stage XD. (Actually, I had that for a week in my house but experienced moire with my Panasonic PT-AE4000U at the time - at 12 feet away. Very frustrating!). No, I had the Enlightor 4K after, which didn't have a moire problem but I could see the weave easily at 12 feet.

From that link:

"Enlightor 4k - This material is mostly color neutral. It is a very fine weave. It does have a slight texture from the weave used to pass the audio through the screen. At 8 feet it was slightly visible. This material would be best for 9 foot or greater viewing distance. At ten feet this material looked very good.""

It all depends on your tolerances. While the Enlightor 4K was certainly good enough as my foray into projector screens (I don't count the Center Stage XD as it wasn't usable in my space for... whatever reason due to moire), NOTHING has come close to my ST100 screen I have now. It's about as perfect as I could ever imagine in my man-cave.

In any case, the Enlightor 4K being best for 9-foot or greater is utter baloney if you're sensitive to screen weave, which again comes down to how sensitive you are to these things. I know I'd had friends viewing the Enlightor 4K at 12 feet, and none of them EVER said a word to me about weave. However, both my wife and I noticed it just about every single movie - although of course on lighter material where it shows up easily (sky shots were particularly brutal). That's why going to the ST100 in my new place but at the same distance (12') was/is revelatory. Perfection, really.
Got it. That's about as clean of an image as possible.
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post #2075 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Got it. That's about as clean of an image as possible.
Yep. I have friends with movie rooms costing more than my house that wish they'd gone with the ST100. I will never stop extolling the virtues of it.
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post #2076 of 2175 Old 01-11-2018, 09:02 AM
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Double post - removal!
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post #2077 of 2175 Old 01-24-2018, 12:07 PM
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Usefull info in this thread. As i am about to buy a second hand VW40ES from 2014 with 400 hrs on the 1st lamp and i did some resarch. This unit seems to be less effected (not so many 40 users complaining) by the panels or is it that the users are less bothered as it is the cheapest unit when new?

As the image is (for the money) very nice and filmlike please advice.
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post #2078 of 2175 Old 01-24-2018, 02:39 PM
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Do we have any reports about VW5000 user with high amount of hours on the unit and any changes in Gamma or contrast?
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post #2079 of 2175 Old 01-24-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Spekkie99 View Post
Usefull info in this thread. As i am about to buy a second hand VW40ES from 2014 with 400 hrs on the 1st lamp and i did some resarch. This unit seems to be less effected (not so many 40 users complaining) by the panels or is it that the users are less bothered as it is the cheapest unit when new?

As the image is (for the money) very nice and filmlike please advice.
Hi.

You need to weigh up how good the picture looks (make sure you see it yourself if possible) against the price you are going to pay. 400 Hours on 1st lamp is barely run in.
I think of more importance is the environment it was installed in.

I only suffered degradation on my VW50 from 2006. Green tinge appeared in places (at about 1800 hours) and got gradually worse. The whole optical block was replaced under warranty.
Incidentally, even then, Sony said 'there were no design flaws in the SXRD panels' (as one would imagine they might) but obviously it did continue on some units for a while after that.

I had a VW90ES for 4.5 years, put 2242 hours on it and it looked as good as when I first had it once a new bulb was inserted (even though the original one was still performing very well).

Have fun if you buy it!
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post #2080 of 2175 Old 01-24-2018, 04:22 PM
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Do we have any reports about VW5000 user with high amount of hours on the unit and any changes in Gamma or contrast?
It was theorized that hours on the projector was not the culprit. In fact, hours may help as it seems it was a humidity problem. More running would keep it drier.

Is this still the consensus or has it changed? It's been a while...
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post #2081 of 2175 Old 01-24-2018, 04:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I had a VW90ES for 4.5 years, put 2242 hours on it and it looked as good as when I first had it once a new bulb was inserted (even though the original one was still performing very well). Have fun if you buy it!
I share a similar experience a vw90es i kept until last spring and i was about half way thru my 3rd lamp. I'd note that vw90es had a much better lense and rgb convergence than my new jvc x990. So i kinda took a step forward and a step back.
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post #2082 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 01:25 AM
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Thanks Archibald, Bytehoven and ERKQ for the info about the humidity, did not find that myself, ofcourse i will audit the unit before buying!
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post #2083 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by erkq View Post
It was theorized that hours on the projector was not the culprit. In fact, hours may help as it seems it was a humidity problem. More running would keep it drier.

Is this still the consensus or has it changed? It's been a while...
I think that is probably accurate.

The very early SXRD panels did suffer from degradation somewhere in the optical path that caused purple, blue or green hues to spread across the screen. (only after 1500 or so hours though I might add).

However I think that problem was soon sorted as evidenced by the far superior performance and longevity of my 90ES.

When I use my units, it is always for several hours at a time and as a result everything is at running temperature and sweet as a nut.
I treat mine like my cars engine. Don't give it any beans until it is fully warmed up (say 30minutes - one hour) and then use it for a good few hours.

The worst thing I think one can do with anything that can sit at ambient overnight and then when switched on can generate so much heat, is to turn it on, use it for a 30 minute show and then switch it off.

Another thing is always try to use low bulb as much as possible, the difference in noise and heat is quite marked.

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post #2084 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Spekkie99 View Post
Usefull info in this thread. As i am about to buy a second hand VW40ES from 2014 with 400 hrs on the 1st lamp and i did some resarch. This unit seems to be less effected (not so many 40 users complaining) by the panels or is it that the users are less bothered as it is the cheapest unit when new?

As the image is (for the money) very nice and filmlike please advice.

Measure gamma and contrast of that unit before buying it.
The VPL-HW40 can also suffer severe degradation.
This user had degradation problems but said the image was good.
Finally Sony repaired the optical block and could compare the contrast difference.
Read until the end:
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/v...48385-795.html

Epson EH-LS10500 measurements:http://www.filedropper.com/ls10500
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post #2085 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 04:57 AM
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Measure gamma and contrast of that unit before buying it.
The VPL-HW40 can also suffer severe degradation.
This user had degradation problems but said the image was good.
Finally Sony repaired the optical block and could compare the contrast difference.
Read until the end:
(link removed because its only my 3rd post)
Thanks! A pity he does not mention age or hours on the unit (or is my french that bad).
That picture already looks awfull.
I will audit the unit before i buy it.
But it still remains one of the few reported issues with the hw40es.
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post #2086 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 05:13 AM
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Thanks! A pity he does not mention age or hours on the unit (or is my french that bad).
That picture already looks awfull.
I will audit the unit before i buy it.
But it still remains one of the few reported issues with the hw40es.
And they don't all suffer from it. So, try before you buy! If there are none of the reported issues, then you have a decision to make.
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post #2087 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
And they don't all suffer from it. So, try before you buy! If there are none of the reported issues, then you have a decision to make.
Asking 800 euro is not that bad but its still a lot of money if.....
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post #2088 of 2175 Old 01-25-2018, 05:50 AM
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Asking 800 euro is not that bad but its still a lot of money if.....
Worst case, you splash 800 sovs, and it dies in 6 months to a year. Can you stomach that kind of bill?

If so, then IMO, go for it! Although of course only you can decide if it is worth it or not.

The only guarantee you can make is the condition of it when you buy it.

If it deteriorates in the future then you cannot know that now, especially if the picture currently stacks up.

All you can do is treat it sympathetically and don't use it for short periods. i.e. Let it fully warm up and operate for a good period of time.
Constant power cycling and the associated heat and cold cycle, is not good for anything. No guarantees of course but that is a good general rule for anything with moving parts and that generates heat.

I am guessing the warranty is long gone?

Also personally, I would try to negotiate the price down a little citing your concerns over panel longevity...

Can but try.

Second hand goods, always a risk, but you have to weigh that against the saving over new.

Good luck.
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post #2089 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 02:32 AM
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post #2090 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 03:32 AM
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Lucy

That looks like one of my images.

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post #2091 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 04:54 AM
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VERY IMPORTANT NOTE - TO READ FIRST
Any color/brightness/whatever difference between both is not important, as the JVC was calibrated and the Sony wasn't. The only thing you can possibly conclude from these comparisons is the sharpness.

Many thanks to Arrow-AV and Javs for providing these pics.

Here's the sharpness difference between the JVC RS9 eshift 4k and native 4k with the new batch of Sony lenses across the VW760ES/VW360ES/VW260ES



http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125382

JVC X9500/RS620:



SONY 760/885ES:



SOURCE FRAME OFF DISC:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125492




DOWNLOAD MASTER PHOTO HERE:
https://photos.smugmug.com/SONY-760-...0%5B760%5D.jpg
what good is sharpness when the blacks look grey and the color saturation is poor? That image from the VW760es doesn't do it any justice IMO. yeah it's sharper but the blacks look awful and the colors are extremely dull.

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post #2092 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 05:03 AM
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what good is sharpness when the blacks look grey and the color saturation is poor? That image from the VW760es doesn't do it any justice IMO. yeah it's sharper but the blacks look awful and the colors are extremely dull.
Hi.

If I am correct, I think the JVC was calibrated but the 760 was straight out of the box and thus colour balance etc is not directly comparable.

I think the sharpness was what was being illustrated with these shots, but of course those viewing them without knowing the history/reason for the shots being put up, merely compare (erroneously, but to be expected) like for like.

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post #2093 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 05:26 AM
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Hi.

If I am correct, I think the JVC was calibrated but the 760 was straight out of the box and thus colour balance etc is not directly comparable.

I think the sharpness was what was being illustrated with these shots, but of course those viewing them without knowing the history/reason for the shots being put up, merely compare (erroneously, but to be expected) like for like.

That makes sense then, but OOTB for a 25k projector that looks awful IMO. Considering that most people that buy these projectors don't even touch them after they are installed. Contrary to what many people on this forum believe most people don't tinker w/ their display devices like us.
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post #2094 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 06:00 AM
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That makes sense then, but OOTB for a 25k projector that looks awful IMO. Considering that most people that buy these projectors don't even touch them after they are installed. Contrary to what many people on this forum believe most people don't tinker w/ their display devices like us.
It also may have been a pre production 760 as well, but I do not know for sure.

I would very much hope that out of the box, one of these did not exhibit so much mauve tinting.

I agree to re tinkering, but anyone who buys a display and just uses a setting and leaves it either doesn't care (many, many people) or doesn't see things like I do.

I have adjusted many friends sets and they have been amazed at the difference with just a few colour, brightness and contrast tweaks, never mind a more in depth tweaking!
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post #2095 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 06:18 AM
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I agree to re tinkering, but anyone who buys a display and just uses a setting and leaves it either doesn't care (many, many people) or doesn't see things like I do.
Exactly many people don't care and don't know what is and isn't a proper image nor do they care to take the time to learn so they assume that whomever sets it up has done so at it's greatest capacity.

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post #2096 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 11:59 AM
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That makes sense then, but OOTB for a 25k projector that looks awful IMO. Considering that most people that buy these projectors don't even touch them after they are installed. Contrary to what many people on this forum believe most people don't tinker w/ their display devices like us.
Hard to believe someone would buy a $25K and not calibrate it. But you could be right. I hope not though !
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post #2097 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 02:40 PM
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what good is sharpness when the blacks look grey and the color saturation is poor? That image from the VW760es doesn't do it any justice IMO. yeah it's sharper but the blacks look awful and the colors are extremely dull.
We've already been through all of this in the Sony thread. These screenshots are ONLY to compare sharpness, as any other possible conclusion you could derive from them is by nature false due to the camera settings used to actually make the pictures.

The contrast is decent on this projector at about 20k, with 1800 lumen calibrated output and 90%+ P3 coverage at this lumen output the color saturation should be very good too.

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post #2098 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 02:43 PM
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what good is sharpness when the blacks look grey and the color saturation is poor? That image from the VW760es doesn't do it any justice IMO. yeah it's sharper but the blacks look awful and the colors are extremely dull.
We've already been through all of this in the Sony thread. These screenshots are ONLY to compare sharpness, as any other possible conclusion you could derive from them is by nature false due to the camera settings used to actually make the pictures.
Noted.

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St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
7.2.2 Atmos (3) B&W CWM 7.3 fronts (4) B&W CCM 7.4 surrounds
(2) B&W CCM 682 Atmos (2) JL Audio E112 subs
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post #2099 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baseball0618 View Post
That makes sense then, but OOTB for a 25k projector that looks awful IMO. Considering that most people that buy these projectors don't even touch them after they are installed. Contrary to what many people on this forum believe most people don't tinker w/ their display devices like us.
Hard to believe someone would buy a $25K and not calibrate it. But you could be right. I hope not though !
I?m sure the perecentage for units at this price level is greater but for everyone of us on this forum there are probably at least two people that just want the best at x dollars and that?s where it ends.

JVC RS4500 projector/LG 65B7P/LG 55B7P/ Pannasonic UB820/Oppo 203/Oppo 103D/Apple tv 4K
St 130 138" scope screen
Marantz 7704 /Integra DTA 70.1
7.2.2 Atmos (3) B&W CWM 7.3 fronts (4) B&W CCM 7.4 surrounds
(2) B&W CCM 682 Atmos (2) JL Audio E112 subs
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post #2100 of 2175 Old 01-26-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi.

If I am correct, I think the JVC was calibrated but the 760 was straight out of the box and thus colour balance etc is not directly comparable.

I think the sharpness was what was being illustrated with these shots, but of course those viewing them without knowing the history/reason for the shots being put up, merely compare (erroneously, but to be expected) like for like.

One was a 44megapixel camera and the other (JVC) was a 22mpixel camera... I did ask arrow to shoot those again with the same camera and lens.

I don't think that is a useful comparison.
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