Official JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000) Owner's Thread - Page 149 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3558Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4441 of 5851 Old 07-06-2017, 07:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
T-Bone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,264
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 458 Post(s)
Liked: 272
If this was answered already, I apologize.

If you set a custom gamma curve for HDR, does it work for virtually all 4K UHD discs? Or is there still a variance between the media that requires tweaking the JVC settings depending on the disk played?

I don't own the 400. Still try to get information.

-T
T-Bone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4442 of 5851 Old 07-07-2017, 07:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,890
Mentioned: 256 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12803 Post(s)
Liked: 10436
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by david8613 View Post
I game and watch movies so i brought a Sony hw45es switching from a jvc rs2 as a stop gap until jvc can get a projector with decent lag time. Did something change with a firmware update? Seeing some good deals on the used market, is very tempting...
The current generation of JVC's have a low lag gaming mode. They have been shipping since first of February.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #4443 of 5851 Old 07-09-2017, 04:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Nexgen76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,195
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 766 Post(s)
Liked: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
If this was answered already, I apologize.

If you set a custom gamma curve for HDR, does it work for virtually all 4K UHD discs? Or is there still a variance between the media that requires tweaking the JVC settings depending on the disk played?

I don't own the 400. Still try to get information.

-T
So far i have three custom gamma curves loaded but I've been using the DV curve for everything on 4K disc & haven't needed to switch yet...... But from what i learned HDR on streaming vs what's on disc is different animal to setup.

I just became a proud owner of Panasonic UB900 & added Mani custom Dolby Vision gamma curve. Using the Dynamic range slider HDR from this PJ is finally jaw dropping.
Gorilla Killa likes this.

JVC NX5 Panasonic UB820 PC Madvr
Sliver Ticket 120' Cinema white screen
Aggressive 1299 L/C/R/, Volt 10XL x 2 surround, MKII Atmos Modules x 4(Jav's build)
Pioneer Elite SC-LX801 Acurus A125x5
Ported Primate SI 18" HST subs x 2(DIY) V.B.S.S.x 4(MBM)
Nexgen76 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4444 of 5851 Old 07-09-2017, 10:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveCallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,236
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 864 Post(s)
Liked: 791
Any detrimental effects by having to use more of the zoom? I ended up moving a little too fast when I mounted mine tonight and realized I ended up at 16' away from where the screen will be instead of 18' like I had in mind. Screen will be 2.35:1, 142" diagonal, so I would be using 1.91x zoom. Does more zoom add pixelation?
SteveCallas is offline  
post #4445 of 5851 Old 07-10-2017, 11:13 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,890
Mentioned: 256 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12803 Post(s)
Liked: 10436
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Any detrimental effects by having to use more of the zoom? I ended up moving a little too fast when I mounted mine tonight and realized I ended up at 16' away from where the screen will be instead of 18' like I had in mind. Screen will be 2.35:1, 142" diagonal, so I would be using 1.91x zoom. Does more zoom add pixelation?
Good job on the mess up. Because for that size screen, I would have recommended mounting at 16' over 18', if given a choice.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #4446 of 5851 Old 07-10-2017, 03:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SteveCallas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,236
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 864 Post(s)
Liked: 791
I'd imagine to conserve light output, but there has to be some tradeoff in detail or sharpness, no?
SteveCallas is offline  
post #4447 of 5851 Old 07-10-2017, 08:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,890
Mentioned: 256 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12803 Post(s)
Liked: 10436
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I'd imagine to conserve light output, but there has to be some tradeoff in detail or sharpness, no?
You are not going to see any loss of detail or sharpness, when moving from 18' to 16' throw.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #4448 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 12:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Discounted JVC X5000 vs the future

Hi, I would love some feedback on my situation regarding my choice of buying a discounted JVC or holding out for the future. I live in Sweden so actual prices are not comparable to Britain or US, so will quote them in percentage relative to each other.

I'm in the process of upgrading my projector from an old BenQ W20000 dlp that I've used since 2009. Me and my family are mainly movie and tv-series focused, no gaming at all, and my priorities are:

1. A great cinematic experience at home with both Blu-ray and 4k material.
2. A quality projector that will not become absolete or incompatible within 5 years.

Our room is completely light controlled with black walls and ceiling, a 100 inch standard gain white screen (Adea Plano) with a projection range of about 3,5 meters.

I went and compared a discounted JVC X5000 (25% off original retail price; demo unit with 180 lamp hours) with an Epson TW9300. The JVC hit a soft spot with me for two reasons you probably already know: great cinematic depth and saturation in colours, punchy contrast and deep blacks without loosing detail.

The TW9300 wasn't far behind but lacked the extra punch and clarity - especially on 4k - that I crave at this price point. The TW9300 is about 8% cheaper than the JVC though...

My question: Am I coming to late to the JVC X5000 party, even with the discount, considering future native 4k panels or even the new X5500? The X5000 price is still quite serious for my budget. I plan to hold on to this projector for a long time and don't want to be boxed into an incompatibility corner at this moment in time of transition from semi-4k (eshift) to native 4k, HDR etc.

Still, my priorities remain: a true cinematic experience and a robust, future-proof projector with a budget around the TW9300 price range (+-10%).

Will the JVC X5000 be a good choice here?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4449 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 01:18 AM
Senior Member
 
mpyw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Hi, I would love some feedback on my situation regarding my choice of buying a discounted JVC or holding out for the future. I live in Sweden so actual prices are not comparable to Britain or US, so will quote them in percentage relative to each other.

I'm in the process of upgrading my projector from an old BenQ W20000 dlp that I've used since 2009. Me and my family are mainly movie and tv-series focused, no gaming at all, and my priorities are:

1. A great cinematic experience at home with both Blu-ray and 4k material.
2. A quality projector that will not become absolete or incompatible within 5 years.

Our room is completely light controlled with black walls and ceiling, a 100 inch standard gain white screen (Adea Plano) with a projection range of about 3,5 meters.

I went and compared a discounted JVC X5000 (25% off original retail price; demo unit with 180 lamp hours) with an Epson TW9300. The JVC hit a soft spot with me for two reasons you probably already know: great cinematic depth and saturation in colours, punchy contrast and deep blacks without loosing detail.

The TW9300 wasn't far behind but lacked the extra punch and clarity - especially on 4k - that I crave at this price point. The TW9300 is about 8% cheaper than the JVC though...

My question: Am I coming to late to the JVC X5000 party, even with the discount, considering future native 4k panels or even the new X5500? The X5000 price is still quite serious for my budget. I plan to hold on to this projector for a long time and don't want to be boxed into an incompatibility corner at this moment in time of transition from semi-4k (eshift) to native 4k, HDR etc.

Still, my priorities remain: a true cinematic experience and a robust, future-proof projector with a budget around the TW9300 price range (+-10%).

Will the JVC X5000 be a good choice here?
If you don't game, the X5000 is almost identical to the X5500 (with other different of 100 lumens extra and out of box usable HDR setting)
However, those HDR setting can be solved with many method available in AVS here.
I have my X5000 and after running the Autocal, tweak the contrast/brightness and importing a few custom Gamma and colour profile, it look gorgeous.
Am thinking of adding the HDfury Linker to make the Auto Iris work in HDR mode.
Lightivity likes this.

To be or NOT to be......YOU are WHO you ARE
mpyw is offline  
post #4450 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 03:26 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyw View Post
If you don't game, the X5000 is almost identical to the X5500 (with other different of 100 lumens extra and out of box usable HDR setting)
However, those HDR setting can be solved with many method available in AVS here.
I have my X5000 and after running the Autocal, tweak the contrast/brightness and importing a few custom Gamma and colour profile, it look gorgeous.
Am thinking of adding the HDfury Linker to make the Auto Iris work in HDR mode.
Thanks! I'm not super fond of tweaking, but by the sounds of it getting good HDR is not a lot of trouble. Is JVC providing the profiles and then I just import through an interface?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4451 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 06:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
sotwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 220 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Thanks! I'm not super fond of tweaking, but by the sounds of it getting good HDR is not a lot of trouble. Is JVC providing the profiles and then I just import through an interface?
For HDR you will have 2 choices to get a proper gamma curve to work. JVC is not providing the curves. 1- download a curve from the 1st page of the calibration software thread. You will then use the import function in the JVC autocal software to upload the curve. 2- use the Arve curve to create your own hdr gamma curve.
Lightivity likes this.
sotwell is offline  
post #4452 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 06:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Hi, I would love some feedback on my situation regarding my choice of buying a discounted JVC or holding out for the future. I live in Sweden so actual prices are not comparable to Britain or US, so will quote them in percentage relative to each other.

I'm in the process of upgrading my projector from an old BenQ W20000 dlp that I've used since 2009. Me and my family are mainly movie and tv-series focused, no gaming at all, and my priorities are:

1. A great cinematic experience at home with both Blu-ray and 4k material.
2. A quality projector that will not become absolete or incompatible within 5 years.

Our room is completely light controlled with black walls and ceiling, a 100 inch standard gain white screen (Adea Plano) with a projection range of about 3,5 meters.

I went and compared a discounted JVC X5000 (25% off original retail price; demo unit with 180 lamp hours) with an Epson TW9300. The JVC hit a soft spot with me for two reasons you probably already know: great cinematic depth and saturation in colours, punchy contrast and deep blacks without loosing detail.

The TW9300 wasn't far behind but lacked the extra punch and clarity - especially on 4k - that I crave at this price point. The TW9300 is about 8% cheaper than the JVC though...

My question: Am I coming to late to the JVC X5000 party, even with the discount, considering future native 4k panels or even the new X5500? The X5000 price is still quite serious for my budget. I plan to hold on to this projector for a long time and don't want to be boxed into an incompatibility corner at this moment in time of transition from semi-4k (eshift) to native 4k, HDR etc.

Still, my priorities remain: a true cinematic experience and a robust, future-proof projector with a budget around the TW9300 price range (+-10%).

Will the JVC X5000 be a good choice here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Thanks! I'm not super fond of tweaking, but by the sounds of it getting good HDR is not a lot of trouble. Is JVC providing the profiles and then I just import through an interface?
First, I'd have to agree with mpyw. It's not likely that you'll be able to soon get a true 4k panel Projector, and/or laser Projector, at anywhere near the price point you're looking at for the JVC X5000. Certainly, nobody knows for sure, and we could be wrong, but even if something does come around that does provide better features, for the same price, it doesn't stop your Projector from working.

As for compatibility, it doesn't seem like there's anything in the near future that would create problems for you. Dolby Vision is the latest buzz, but that's not currently, nor likely to be in the foreseeable future, a viable option for any projector.

Like mpyw, I have this Projector, have done Autocal, and created custom curves for HDR using Arve's software, and am blown away by what I'm seeing.

Doing these adjustments isn't as simple as importing a color profile, however, and it will take some time invested to learn what needs to be done. You'll also need to buy a Spyder 5 in order to do the Autocal, but that's generally around a $100 product in the U.S.

There is a lot of information on accomplishing these tasks in the first post in Manni01's Autocal thread, and the people here are more than willing to help you through the process. Once you've done some reading, thinking, and preparation, it really isn't too bad. And it is definitely worth the effort, in getting the most out of your projector.

Hope this helps!

Don
Lightivity likes this.

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4453 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 08:41 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
First, I'd have to agree with mpyw. It's not likely that you'll be able to soon get a true 4k panel Projector, and/or laser Projector, at anywhere near the price point you're looking at for the JVC X5000. Certainly, nobody knows for sure, and we could be wrong, but even if something does come around that does provide better features, for the same price, it doesn't stop your Projector from working.

As for compatibility, it doesn't seem like there's anything in the near future that would create problems for you. Dolby Vision is the latest buzz, but that's not currently, nor likely to be in the foreseeable future, a viable option for any projector.

Like mpyw, I have this Projector, have done Autocal, and created custom curves for HDR using Arve's software, and am blown away by what I'm seeing.

Doing these adjustments isn't as simple as importing a color profile, however, and it will take some time invested to learn what needs to be done. You'll also need to buy a Spyder 5 in order to do the Autocal, but that's generally around a $100 product in the U.S.

There is a lot of information on accomplishing these tasks in the first post in Manni01's Autocal thread, and the people here are more than willing to help you through the process. Once you've done some reading, thinking, and preparation, it really isn't too bad. And it is definitely worth the effort, in getting the most out of your projector.

Hope this helps!

Don
It does help, thank you.

I'm a bit nervous about the tweaking part still. Autocal is ok I believe, but I read the Manni post regarding HDR and it's a bit over my head. But if I understood it correctly, after Autocal, I can download and use/apply a premade custom gamma curve that fits my screen situation (nits)?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."

Last edited by Lightivity; 07-14-2017 at 08:45 AM.
Lightivity is offline  
post #4454 of 5851 Old 07-14-2017, 08:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
It does help, thank you.

I'm a bit nervous about the tweaking part still. Autocal is ok I believe, but I read the Manni post regarding HDR and it's a bit over my head. But if I understood it correctly, After Autocal, I can download the use/apply a premade custom gamma curve that fits my screen situation (nits)?
If you can handle Autocal, you can definitely handle creating your own curves, as it's actually quicker and simpler. See lovingdvd's 'speed guide' for this process here:

SpeedGuide

ETA: this will give you much better results than downloading/using somebody else's curves, although there isn't any harm in trying.

Don
Lightivity likes this.

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000

Last edited by DLCPhoto; 07-14-2017 at 08:54 AM.
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4455 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 05:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
If you can handle Autocal, you can definitely handle creating your own curves, as it's actually quicker and simpler. See lovingdvd's 'speed guide' for this process here:

SpeedGuide

ETA: this will give you much better results than downloading/using somebody else's curves, although there isn't any harm in trying.

Don
Stupid question: What happens when I watch a 4k movie with HDR-mastering on the JVC on a "regular" setting = not HDR gamma?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4456 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 06:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Stupid question: What happens when I watch a 4k movie with HDR-mastering on the JVC on a "regular" setting = not HDR gamma?
The JVC will automatically switch to Gamma D. JVC does suggest some tweaks to this Gamma setting, for HDR viewing, but the results are pretty poor: very dark image overall, poor shadow detail, etc.

Because of this, for a while many here were using the HDFury Integral to convert from HDR to SDR, while maintaining Wide Color Gamut, so regular Gamma and settings could be used. But then Manni and Arve came up with the Custom Curve option, which produces results vastly superior to JVC's Gamma D. The Oppo 203 UHD Player now has an option to do this without needing the Integral. It didn't work very well when they first introduced it, but I think they have improved on it in recent months.

Apparently JVC has somewhat fixed this with their newer line (420/520/620), with a special HDR Picture Mode, so the custom curve approach is less crucial than it is with the prior generation. But these don't produce anything better than what can be achieved with the older line, with a Custom Curve.

But seriously, installing and using Arve's software to create a Custom Curve for your specific room is pretty straightforward, and actually much quicker and simpler than Autocal.

Your other option is to get your Projector professionally calibrated. The challenge here is finding somebody who is up to date on the tools and techniques to deal appropriately with HDR. Just because someone is ISF certified, and can do an excellent 'regular' calibration, doesn't mean they really know how to tune things for good HDR performance.
kenreau likes this.

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4457 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 07:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
The JVC will automatically switch to Gamma D. JVC does suggest some tweaks to this Gamma setting, for HDR viewing, but the results are pretty poor: very dark image overall, poor shadow detail, etc.

Because of this, for a while many here were using the HDFury Integral to convert from HDR to SDR, while maintaining Wide Color Gamut, so regular Gamma and settings could be used. But then Manni and Arve came up with the Custom Curve option, which produces results vastly superior to JVC's Gamma D. The Oppo 203 UHD Player now has an option to do this without needing the Integral. It didn't work very well when they first introduced it, but I think they have improved on it in recent months.

Apparently JVC has somewhat fixed this with their newer line (420/520/620), with a special HDR Picture Mode, so the custom curve approach is less crucial than it is with the prior generation. But these don't produce anything better than what can be achieved with the older line, with a Custom Curve.

But seriously, installing and using Arve's software to create a Custom Curve for your specific room is pretty straightforward, and actually much quicker and simpler than Autocal.

Your other option is to get your Projector professionally calibrated. The challenge here is finding somebody who is up to date on the tools and techniques to deal appropriately with HDR. Just because someone is ISF certified, and can do an excellent 'regular' calibration, doesn't mean they really know how to tune things for good HDR performance.
Wow, thank you! So in essence, if I tell my Blu-ray 4K player (Sony X800) to output HDR to the JVC, I'll need to create the custom curve to get an optimal HDR projection. But if I tell the player to just send SDR information, I will project the 4k image through the normal calibrated setting?

I will try to read up on the Arve software, but just a couple quick questions:

1. Does creating a Custom Curve using the Arve software require a Spider?
2. Does the Arve process require an intitial Autocal calibration, or is a manual calibration beforehand also ok?

EDIT: made som changes in the questions (sorry )

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."

Last edited by Lightivity; 07-15-2017 at 07:48 AM.
Lightivity is offline  
post #4458 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 08:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Wow, thank you! So in essence, if I tell my Blu-ray 4K player (Sony X800) to output HDR to the JVC, I'll need to create the custom curve to get an optimal HDR projection. But if I tell the player to just send SDR information, I will project the 4k image through the normal calibrated setting?

I will try to read up on the Arve software, but just a couple quick questions:

1. Does creating a Custom Curve using the Arve software require a Spider?
2. Does the Arve process require an intitial Autocal calibration, or is a manual calibration beforehand also ok?

EDIT: made som changes in the questions (sorry )
Correct, HDR output from your player requires a custom curve to get optimal HDR picture quality. If you output SDR from your player, then you can play it as a regular Blu-ray, without need for any custom curves.

Keep in mind:

4k/HDR blu-rays provide 3 benefits: increased resolution, wider dynamic range, and a wider color gamut. To get the benefit from all 3 factors, you will need the custom curves. If you use an Oppo 203, or put an HDFury Integral into the chain, you will get the 4k resolution, keep the Wide Color Gamut, and lose the wider dynamic range. If you use your Sony player to output SDR only, you maintain the 4k resolution, while losing both the wider dynamic range and the wider color gamut.

To be honest, gaining the 4k resolution only is a fairly minor improvement over a well-done conventional Blu-ray. And since our JVC Projectors are eShift, we're not even getting the full benefit there, resolution-wise.

Many times, it's only the UHD disc that contains the Atmos soundtrack, so if you have this capability in your theater, you will get this benefit. But if you're not Atmos-capable, and you're only getting a small bump in resolution, it is a subjective call as to whether it's worth the added expense for the gear and higher cost of the discs.

To get the full benefit, you need all 3 levels of improvement listed above. And to be honest, even when you have all three, the amount of improvement over a well-done conventional Blu-ray is not night and day, most of the time. In my opinion, the jump from DVD to Blu-ray is pretty substantial; the jump from regular Blu-ray to 4k/HDR Blu-ray is not nearly as great. And the amount of improvement will vary from one movie to another, and even from one scene to another.

In answer to your questions:

1. Creating Custom Curves with Arve's software does not require the use of the Spyder.

2. The Arve process assumes, and builds on, a correct Calibration, however one gets there. Autocal is generally considered the best way to get there, short of a professional calibration.

Don

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4459 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 10:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Correct, HDR output from your player requires a custom curve to get optimal HDR picture quality. If you output SDR from your player, then you can play it as a regular Blu-ray, without need for any custom curves.

Keep in mind:

4k/HDR blu-rays provide 3 benefits: increased resolution, wider dynamic range, and a wider color gamut. To get the benefit from all 3 factors, you will need the custom curves. If you use an Oppo 203, or put an HDFury Integral into the chain, you will get the 4k resolution, keep the Wide Color Gamut, and lose the wider dynamic range. If you use your Sony player to output SDR only, you maintain the 4k resolution, while losing both the wider dynamic range and the wider color gamut.

To be honest, gaining the 4k resolution only is a fairly minor improvement over a well-done conventional Blu-ray. And since our JVC Projectors are eShift, we're not even getting the full benefit there, resolution-wise.

Many times, it's only the UHD disc that contains the Atmos soundtrack, so if you have this capability in your theater, you will get this benefit. But if you're not Atmos-capable, and you're only getting a small bump in resolution, it is a subjective call as to whether it's worth the added expense for the gear and higher cost of the discs.

To get the full benefit, you need all 3 levels of improvement listed above. And to be honest, even when you have all three, the amount of improvement over a well-done conventional Blu-ray is not night and day, most of the time. In my opinion, the jump from DVD to Blu-ray is pretty substantial; the jump from regular Blu-ray to 4k/HDR Blu-ray is not nearly as great. And the amount of improvement will vary from one movie to another, and even from one scene to another.

In answer to your questions:

1. Creating Custom Curves with Arve's software does not require the use of the Spyder.

2. The Arve process assumes, and builds on, a correct Calibration, however one gets there. Autocal is generally considered the best way to get there, short of a professional calibration.

Don
Well put.

For me, the greatest jump in quality will be going from my 2008 projector to the JVC; the native contrast and color upgrade is a night and day change, and that is just based on the standard Blu-ray image. 4K is mostly icing on that cake, although of course I prefer the icing to be as well tasting as possible within my means.

If I understand you properly, using the Sony X800 and HDR output + custom gamma will provide all your three stated benefits (resolution, dynamic range and wide color gamut)

Using the Oppo 203 and HDR output without custom gamma will get me resolution and wide colour gamut? How is this done?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4460 of 5851 Old 07-15-2017, 12:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Well put.

For me, the greatest jump in quality will be going from my 2008 projector to the JVC; the native contrast and color upgrade is a night and day change, and that is just based on the standard Blu-ray image. 4K is mostly icing on that cake, although of course I prefer the icing to be as well tasting as possible within my means.

If I understand you properly, using the Sony X800 and HDR output + custom gamma will provide all your three stated benefits (resolution, dynamic range and wide color gamut)

Using the Oppo 203 and HDR output without custom gamma will get me resolution and wide colour gamut? How is this done?
I'm somewhat new to the projector world (set up my first system a little over a year ago), but from all I've learned, you're right that the overall experience with the JVC should be dramatically better.

And yes, the custom gamma will give the best results with the RS400 for 4k/HDR.

Now, just to be precise, we aren't getting "true" 4k, due to eShift, so perhaps roughly '3k' vs '4k'. And the Wide Color Gamut of the RS400 isn't quite as wide as with the RS500/RS600 which have a physical filter to provide a wider gamut of colors. And due to inherent brightness limitations, televisions are able to provide a superior rendition of the wide dynamic range in brightness than virtually any consumer level projectors.

But within these inherent limitations, custom curves allow us to take advantage of all 3 dimensions of improvement available with 4k/WCG/HDR content.

Regarding the HDR to SDR conversion, 4k is maintained, as is WCG, but the HDR component is 'tone-mapped' to SDR. This is done either with the Oppo 203, which has a built-in feature to do this, or with other players, using the HDFury Integral. Basically, the player is 'tricked' into thinking the display device it is sending to isn't capable of HDR so that the HDR content is mapped into the narrower SDR range.

Generally speaking, the Panasonic UB900 with the HDFury Integral were generally felt to do this the best. The Oppo added this feature to its player, to accomplish this without needing the Integral, and initially did a poor job. They have improved it, apparently, but I'm not sure if they now do as good a job as the Panasonic. But both approaches will do a pretty good job.

As I said, before Arve's software became available, this approach of HDR to SDR conversion was the 'preferred' route to view 4k/WCG content on our Projectors. But now that we have this tool, this has mostly fallen by the wayside.

The only place where HDR to SDR conversion might still be desired is where the maximum brightness of one's system is significantly less than 100 nits. The basic idea here is that if one doesn't have enough available brightness, there just isn't enough 'room' to take advantage of the potential High Dynamic Range. This would be due to low gain screen, long throw distances, lower projector lumen output, etc.

But bottom line, even with the RS400, with Autocal and a custom curve, the 4k/WCG/HDR experience is pretty dang good! Add the overall image size which provides great immersion, and a good sound system, I now prefer to watch movies at home, finding the experience to be superior to any commercial theater I have been to, or have access to.

Don
Lightivity likes this.

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4461 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 04:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I'm somewhat new to the projector world (set up my first system a little over a year ago), but from all I've learned, you're right that the overall experience with the JVC should be dramatically better.

And yes, the custom gamma will give the best results with the RS400 for 4k/HDR.

Now, just to be precise, we aren't getting "true" 4k, due to eShift, so perhaps roughly '3k' vs '4k'. And the Wide Color Gamut of the RS400 isn't quite as wide as with the RS500/RS600 which have a physical filter to provide a wider gamut of colors. And due to inherent brightness limitations, televisions are able to provide a superior rendition of the wide dynamic range in brightness than virtually any consumer level projectors.

But within these inherent limitations, custom curves allow us to take advantage of all 3 dimensions of improvement available with 4k/WCG/HDR content.

Regarding the HDR to SDR conversion, 4k is maintained, as is WCG, but the HDR component is 'tone-mapped' to SDR. This is done either with the Oppo 203, which has a built-in feature to do this, or with other players, using the HDFury Integral. Basically, the player is 'tricked' into thinking the display device it is sending to isn't capable of HDR so that the HDR content is mapped into the narrower SDR range.

Generally speaking, the Panasonic UB900 with the HDFury Integral were generally felt to do this the best. The Oppo added this feature to its player, to accomplish this without needing the Integral, and initially did a poor job. They have improved it, apparently, but I'm not sure if they now do as good a job as the Panasonic. But both approaches will do a pretty good job.

As I said, before Arve's software became available, this approach of HDR to SDR conversion was the 'preferred' route to view 4k/WCG content on our Projectors. But now that we have this tool, this has mostly fallen by the wayside.

The only place where HDR to SDR conversion might still be desired is where the maximum brightness of one's system is significantly less than 100 nits. The basic idea here is that if one doesn't have enough available brightness, there just isn't enough 'room' to take advantage of the potential High Dynamic Range. This would be due to low gain screen, long throw distances, lower projector lumen output, etc.

But bottom line, even with the RS400, with Autocal and a custom curve, the 4k/WCG/HDR experience is pretty dang good! Add the overall image size which provides great immersion, and a good sound system, I now prefer to watch movies at home, finding the experience to be superior to any commercial theater I have been to, or have access to.

Don
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh . I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4462 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 05:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DLCPhoto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 2,499
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1694 Post(s)
Liked: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh . I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
Sounds like a good approach! I think it can be done with a Mac, but I'm not sure. You can post or search in the main RS500/RS600 thread about this, as that has greater traffic than this thread, and the most knowledgeable people post there regularly.

As for the wip branch, here's the link:

Arve's Software, WIP Branch

He provides a good summary and instructions at that link. Combined with the Speedguide, you should be up and running fairly easily.

Finally, regarding brightness, the AVScience guys (Mike Garrett, JDSmoothie, Craig Peer) indicate that the Projector Central Calculator is not really accurate for brightness determinations (while it is just fine for distance and size calculations, etc.). You can contact them via PM, or in the RS500/RS600 thread, and provide the specifics of your situation: Screen Size and Gain, Throw Distance, which Projector you're getting, etc, and they can do a quick calculation for you.

Good luck! Keep us posted on your progress as you get the gear, and set it up.

Don

JVC NX7, DCR Lens, Marantz SR7010, Screen Innovations 160" 2.35:1 Screen
Front L/R: Duntech Sovereigns, powered by 2 bridged Adcom GFA-555
Center: Revel C208 powered by Cambridge Audio Azur 851W
Dolby Bed (4): Sony Core SS-CS5, Atmos (4): Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE
Subwoofer: DIY 8' sub with 4 18" SI Drivers, powered by iNuke 6000
DLCPhoto is offline  
post #4463 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 05:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,180
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1462 Post(s)
Liked: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh . I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
This post from me will help you immensely.

You're on your own with the mac though.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #4464 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 06:33 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,890
Mentioned: 256 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12803 Post(s)
Liked: 10436
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh . I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
What is your
Screen size?
Screen fabric?
Aspect ratio?
Throw distance?

The calculator is not accurate for brightness.
Lightivity likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #4465 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 08:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
This post from me will help you immensely.

You're on your own with the mac though.
That's weird, your link forwards from page 109 to 145 and lands on a post from someone not you Which post are you referring to? The one with the Youtube-link?

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4466 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 08:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,180
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1462 Post(s)
Liked: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
That's weird, your link forwards from page 109 to 145 and lands on a post from someone not you Which post are you referring to? The one with the Youtube-link?
This forum platform is messed up. Open the link in a private/incognito tab and it will open correctly.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #4467 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What is your
Screen size?
Screen fabric?
Aspect ratio?
Throw distance?

The calculator is not accurate for brightness.
- Screen size: 230 cm diagonal (90 inch)
- Screen fabric: matt, white, stretchable/soft plastic fabric on a fixed frame. The brand of frame and fabric is Adeo Plano, gain 1.2
- Aspect ratio: 16:9
- Throw distance: 3,6 meters

Room is bat cave: completely light-controlled with painted black ceiling and velvet on walls, black carpet on floor.

EDIT 1: The screen surface is probably VisionWhitePro (bought long ago so lost the details of the purchase): http://www.adeoscreen.com/default.php?t=site&pgid=186

Edit 2: Throw distance is 3.6 m

EDIT 3: My gain is 1.2

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."

Last edited by Lightivity; 07-16-2017 at 03:29 PM.
Lightivity is offline  
post #4468 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 03:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Lightivity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
This forum platform is messed up. Open the link in a private/incognito tab and it will open correctly.
Now I found it, thanks!

Your post seems to suggest a different process than the one explained by DLCPhoto above:

1. Download Arve's Software, WIP Branch
2. Speed Guide

JVC RS400/X5000, Marantz SR5011, Sony UHD X800
—————————-
"National unity in Europe is still defined in terms of blood and earth. In the USA it's the idea – expressed in the Constitution – that supports the development of the nation. In the matter of integration the difference is profound: everyone can agree on an idea, but no-one can change their ties of blood."
Lightivity is offline  
post #4469 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 03:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,180
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1462 Post(s)
Liked: 773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightivity View Post
Now I found it, thanks!

Your post seems to suggest a different process than the one explained by DLCPhoto above:

1. Download Arve's Software, WIP Branch
2. Speed Guide
Should be the same process. Step 3 is the custom gamma step. The "DIY" link goes right to lovindvd's post and the 'tool' link goes right to the GitHub link.

The most difficult part of this entire forum is finding single post condensed DIY's. After I cobble together the posts necessary to come up with an A-Z step-by-step guide, I'll usually make an all inclusive single post and and link it in my sig. That's exactly what I did and its written for someone new to the RS400/500/600 and that is the link I gave you (also in my sig). Step 1 addresses 4K cable issues. Step 2 is the idiot proof JVC Gamma D settings. Step 3 is the custom gamma which is a better solution than Gamma D.

I just did color & gamma calibration and have a couple outstanding questions, once I have that figured out, I'll be posting a single condensed DIY for that, too. (Step 1 is buy a Spyder 5, if your curious).
Lightivity, Modicen and Kiding like this.
Dreamliner is offline  
post #4470 of 5851 Old 07-16-2017, 11:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
jake51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 727
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Liked: 62
Where on the box can I find the serial number?
How many digits is it?
I forgot to write it down before mounting the projector
jake51 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
DLA-RS400 , DLA-RS500U

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off