Official JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/X5000) Owner's Thread - Page 197 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5881 of 5910 Old 01-07-2020, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Do you use the Panny UB-420 for streaming HDR?

The UI leaves a lot to be desired, but I think I may use it for streaming regardless. It's great the HDR Optimizer works for streaming, I didn't even know that it did from the way everyone was earlier saying there is no solution for streaming. The IR receiver on the Panny is one of the weakest IR's I've ever seen, I'm probably going to need an IR repeater, for now just angled it perfectly at the screen works somewhat.

The quality is great after watching some of Dark, amazing, but it could just be the cinematography on that series. Not really into that show though, slow and depressing kind of nature (well it is called Dark after all), but cleanliness of the image (at least on the episode I was watching) was amazing. That and Witcher are the best thing I've seen so far streaming wise. I just received my RS-420 a couple weeks ago though, so haven't watched that much stuff yet.

I plan to compare my old JVC in 1080p side-by-side to the RS-420 to see how much difference. I thought a lot of this was hype (some of it may be), but I have to say, I am seeing some MAJOR difference, unless it's just the camera. I zoomed the 2:1 Aspect on my scope almost all the way, and the quality barely even went down.

Don't recall seeing that before on anything really, usually always notice some loss in quality.
Nope, no streaming, will strictly be used for psychical discs

So I have these sources then in my room:
- UB424 for UHD HDR discs due to HDR optimizer
- UB900 for HD discs, output set to 1080p fixed, this might be made redundant if I settle for the 424 to play HD discs as well
- Vero4K+ Kodi box, all local content from my NAS, 99% is 1080p anyway
- And some other old stuff like Laserdiscs upscaled via a Lumagen 2144 to 1080p
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post #5882 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Peule_P View Post
Well I could play regular Blu-rays indeed with the UB424 without changing any settings, but I prefer to play them in 1080p with e-shift disabled.
The UB424 will upscale to 4K otherwise unless I change the output to 1080p manually every time.

As for the custom curves, I then can use custom 1 for 2.4, custom 2 for Javs V3 1200nits and custom 3 for Javs V3 4000 nits, right?
And when I play HDR content on preset 3 cycle to the corresponding custom 2 or 3 curve?
I used to do that for awhile but got tired of fussing with it and eventually just left eShift on. I had a PS3/PS4/HD BD & 4K BD. I had to start trimming so the HD BD player was the first to go. Then I got rid of the PS4 in anticipation of the backwards compatible PS5.

I forget specifically which JAVS V3 curve I ended up with, I loaded a couple and kept trying different ones until I found one I liked and forgot which one it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Do you use the Panny UB-420 for streaming HDR?

The UI leaves a lot to be desired, but I think I may use it for streaming regardless. It's great the HDR Optimizer works for streaming, I didn't even know that it did from the way everyone was earlier saying there is no solution for streaming. The IR receiver on the Panny is one of the weakest IR's I've ever seen, I'm probably going to need an IR repeater, for now just angled it perfectly at the screen works somewhat.

The quality is great after watching some of Dark, amazing, though it could just be the cinematography on that series. Not really into that show though, slow and depressing kind of nature (well it is called Dark after all), but cleanliness of the image (at least on the episode I was watching) was amazing. That and Witcher are the best thing I've seen so far streaming wise. I just received my RS-420 a couple weeks ago though, so haven't watched that much stuff yet.

I plan to compare my old JVC in 1080p side-by-side to the RS-420 to see how much difference. I thought a lot of this was hype (some of it may be), but I have to say, I am seeing some MAJOR difference, unless it's just the camera. I zoomed the 2:1 Aspect on my scope almost all the way, and the quality barely even went down.

Don't recall seeing that before on anything really, usually always notice some loss in quality.
I've been streaming with my Nvidia Shield. I did not know the HDR Optimizer works on the Panny for streaming. I wonder if the HDR Slider does also...probably. I don't stream much because its 50/50 if it looks good or not. I've said before I wish Panasonic made an HDMI I/O box that converted all HDR to SDR2020.

I've not had any IR issues, but my entire equipment rack is in another room and I use a Harmony Elite, so I wouldn't notice this issue.

Forum hyperbole is a real problem. I try not to overstate my position and only recommend things I know for certain to be true. But when I know I'm right, I'll stand firm and lean in.

When I upgraded my RS46 to RS400 in 2016 I noticed right away the pixels were physically closer together. With eShift off that difference is super noticeable. I was previously able to just barely make out pixel spacing from my seating position on my screen size, with the RS400 I can't. I also noticed the black level was slightly higher on the RS400 but that was quickly forgotten about when I saw how much brighter the RS400 was over the RS46. I was 100% fully satisfied with HD on the RS400.

When it came to HDR though, I was sorely disappointed. It was still 2016 and the forum kept talking about how great everything looked and I was just not having any of it. Months and months of drama ensued where the forum would defend the way it looked until a new option came available, then they'd bash the old option and praise the new one. Rinse and repeat a few times until we finally landed on SDR2020 with the UB420/820. Streaming is still a bit of a mixed bag and isn't as consistent as SDR2020 discs via the UB420/820. I still wish would could get a SDR2020 HDMI I/O box, that would be so awesome.


SDR2020 with the UB420/820 is the key to excellent looking UHD on the RS series projectors.
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post #5883 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 02:01 AM
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I still haven't done an A/B comparison, so doesn't mean much from memory, but looks good none-the-less. I agree streaming is a mixed bag, but all movies are a mixed bag in general, some still have way too much random noise in them. I don't mind a little noise here and there, but some are just bad.

The main shows on Netflix have been very high quality, Lost in Space, Witcher, Dark, etc...
Dark Crystal also looks good, but having trouble getting into it.

The JVC has always been extra sensitive to image noise, and it still has that dancing mosquito noise as well in some cases.
However, overall I forgive that aspect as it produces a great image otherwise, nothing too close really.

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post #5884 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The JVC has always been extra sensitive to image noise, and it still has that dancing mosquito noise as well in some cases.
The default setting (5) of the RS420 MPC Enhance is too high and exaggerates the image noise.
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post #5885 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The default setting (5) of the RS420 MPC Enhance is too high and exaggerates the image noise.
I turned that off long ago, first thing I did when I received the projector. I rotate between 0 and 2 on that setting. Have owned 15 different projectors and had many many more in my HT, JVC's always show a bit more noise than certain DLP's I've owned for instance. However, on the really clean content, they do very well. It's partly because of the higher contrast makes noise easier to see, but it is also partly related to the LCOS technology. DLP can have noise issues too, but I find it slightly less intrusive, it blends in a tad better.

The noise reduction works well on these particular JVC's, but all NR makes things look a bit over-cooked, so I only use it if I'm desperate.

Look at the date of when I joined the forum, I've been at this a long time.

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Last edited by coderguy; 01-08-2020 at 05:24 AM.
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post #5886 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
When I upgraded my RS46 to RS400 in 2016 I noticed right away the pixels were physically closer together. With eShift off that difference is super noticeable. I was previously able to just barely make out pixel spacing from my seating position on my screen size, with the RS400 I can't. I also noticed the black level was slightly higher on the RS400 but that was quickly forgotten about when I saw how much brighter the RS400 was over the RS46. I was 100% fully satisfied with HD on the RS400.

SDR2020 with the UB420/820 is the key to excellent looking UHD on the RS series projectors.
I am going to load the custom gamma curves, just haven't gotten around to it, after I do that I will probably mostly use the Roku, but possibly the Panny on occassion. I may get an Apple TV 4k, but probably will wait for the next version of Roku and see if they add anything better. Since my 16:9 portion of my scope screen is only just about 100" anyhow, I've got brightness to spare by opening the manual aperture.

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post #5887 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 11:43 PM
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So yesterday I tested the UB424 and wow, just wow, now I can really kick back and enjoy a UHD disc
Still some tweaking to do and need to fix my projector's gamma drift as it is off a little bit.

But for now I settled with this:
Panasonic set to:
SDR2020 output, HDR optimizer ON, all values to 0 (messed with the sliders but liked this the best)

JVC set to:
BT.2020, 6500K, Gamma custom 1 - 2.4, low lamp manual and fully open
Yes it still does look better with the lamp in high, but the noise kills it for me... and as long as you don't do A/B testing it still kicks ass in low mode
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post #5888 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 11:46 PM
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One thing though I noticed is that the UB424 sometimes would freeze for 1 sec and then would continue.
I did only test with 1 disc for now (UHD Black Hawk Down), so it might be the disc, but I was also constantly flipping the optimizer on/off and changing the sliders, so perhaps at some point the player needs to buffer the video or something?
Anyone experienced this?
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post #5889 of 5910 Old 01-08-2020, 11:50 PM
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The UI lags sometimes, maybe the UI caused the freeze.
I haven't watched that many disks on it, but no freeze yet.

I did have Netflix freeze once, the streaming looks good but the streaming UI is horrible.

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post #5890 of 5910 Old 01-09-2020, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The UI lags sometimes, maybe the UI caused the freeze.
I haven't watched that many disks on it, but no freeze yet.

I did have Netflix freeze once, the streaming looks good but the streaming UI is horrible.
Thanks, for sure will try some other discs as well, was just wondering if anyone else experienced this.
Funny note though, on my local Dutch forum where I also bought the player, the seller replied that he had exactly the same issue with Black Hawk Down and therefore returned the disc.

EDIT: found a handful of complaints both on this forum and on blu-ray.com forums without audio dropouts of video freezes on Black Hawk Down as well, so might have been a bad production run?
Contacted the store where I bought it and will get a replacement, which is hopefully better...?

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post #5891 of 5910 Old 01-13-2020, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can run the ATV4K in HDR mode and turn off matching. You’ll get the wide gamut for HDR contents; SDR contents will be played in an HDR “container” so that there is no resync and yet you get the correct colours.
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I have the ATV4K and run it as 4K SDR. ...yes WCG is nice but for ME it's not worth the hassle of a 10-second black screen and Gamma D. ...
Dominic: Please correct me if I'm confused.

You're saying with the ATV set to 4K HDR and matching OFF, you leave the projector in BT2020. You then get WCG with HDR contents. With SDR contents the colors are correct even with the projector in BT2020.

If this is correct, then batpig (and all of us) can have WGC without the resync or Gamma D popping up.

Am I confused?

Thanks,

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post #5892 of 5910 Old 01-13-2020, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Pip View Post
Dominic: Please correct me if I'm confused.

You're saying with the ATV set to 4K HDR and matching OFF, you leave the projector in BT2020. You then get WCG with HDR contents. With SDR contents the colors are correct even with the projector in BT2020.

If this is correct, then batpig (and all of us) can have WGC without the resync or Gamma D popping up.

Am I confused?

Thanks,

Pip
That is how it should work if you turn off matching. Unfortunately, the ATV sometimes changes the metadata which would then kick the projector back to Gamma D (without resync) unless you have a Linker that blocks the metadata.
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post #5893 of 5910 Old 01-14-2020, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That is how it should work if you turn off matching. Unfortunately, the ATV sometimes changes the metadata which would then kick the projector back to Gamma D (without resync) unless you have a Linker that blocks the metadata.
"Missed it by that much."

Any ideas why or when the ATV does this?

Thanks,

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post #5894 of 5910 Old 01-14-2020, 09:15 AM
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"Missed it by that much."

Any ideas why or when the ATV does this?

Thanks,

Pip
I can’t guess why, but it seems to happen mostly with Dolby Vision titles. A Linker is the best solution for the RS4/5/600 projectors.

BTW, you can try the following settings for Gamma D, which hopefully make it somewhat tolerable:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56987686

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post #5895 of 5910 Old 01-19-2020, 01:17 AM
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Sorry is this has been covered, but thinking of picking up an RS400/420/440 for my home theater.

Only concern is gaming.

I game a fair amount. No FPS like Call of Duty. I play games like Red Dead 2, GTA5, Forza Horizon 4-generally adventure, RPG, racing.

Will the input lag be a problem for me?
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post #5896 of 5910 Old 01-19-2020, 01:44 AM
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Sorry is this has been covered, but thinking of picking up an RS400/420/440 for my home theater.

Only concern is gaming.

I game a fair amount. No FPS like Call of Duty. I play games like Red Dead 2, GTA5, Forza Horizon 4-generally adventure, RPG, racing.

Will the input lag be a problem for me?
For me it is no issue. Don’t notice it, but I have all enhancements like CMD and e-shift turned OFF.
I would assume those add delay as well
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post #5897 of 5910 Old 01-19-2020, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mkiv808 View Post
Sorry is this has been covered, but thinking of picking up an RS400/420/440 for my home theater.

Only concern is gaming.

I game a fair amount. No FPS like Call of Duty. I play games like Red Dead 2, GTA5, Forza Horizon 4-generally adventure, RPG, racing.

Will the input lag be a problem for me?
The RS-400/500/600 does not have a low-lag mode for gaming, the 420 and later series do.

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post #5898 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Peule_P View Post
For me it is no issue. Don’t notice it, but I have all enhancements like CMD and e-shift turned OFF.

I would assume those add delay as well
So you have to give up 4k for low lag?
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post #5899 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 01:13 AM
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So you have to give up 4k for low lag?
My PS4 (not the Pro version) is 1080p, so why would I want e-shift?
I prefer movies from 1080p source with e-shift off as well, I only use e-shift for UHD discs and then I have to add 100ms audio delay in my AVR so I assume that is the extra processing time needed.
With e-shift off and 1080p sources my audio delay is set to 0ms and it is fine

I have a RS400 btw

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post #5900 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Peule_P View Post
My PS4 (not the Pro version) is 1080p, so why would I want e-shift?

I prefer movies from 1080p source with e-shift off as well, I only use e-shift for UHD discs and then I have to add 100ms audio delay in my AVR so I assume that is the extra processing time needed.

With e-shift off and 1080p sources my audio delay is set to 0ms and it is fine



I have a RS400 btw
Well I do have an Xbox One X and like to game in 4k. Would the lag be as bad in 4k on a RS420/440?
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post #5901 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 01:09 PM
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Well I do have an Xbox One X and like to game in 4k. Would the lag be as bad in 4k on a RS420/440?
Not sure much benefit to e-shift in gaming, I would turn it off to be honest. The 4k on e-shifting projectors doesn't look like Native 4k, it is more of an anti-aliasing effect, which can be a negative on the desktop. Though frankly, it's neither here nor their to me, it's just if you compre e-shifted 4k to Native 4k on a PC or gaming device, this is the one area where the Native 4k really outshines these e-shifters in a serious way.

I think most don't game using e-shift, but I could be wrong, don't remember the lag with e-shift on.

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I game on my RS400 and I don't have a problem. I would argue that any amount of input lag on the RS400 is only a problem for people who can see the difference of a game mode and actually have input-lag related issues. I'm sure with an A/B comparison I could be trained to see the difference but I've never ever had an issue with input lag.

The entire RSxxx projector lineup is a phenomenal used value. When I see how much low hour used RS400/RS420 projectors are selling for, I am just blown away at how great of a deal it is. When I look at the cost of a NX5 or NX7, I am fully content to keep my RS400 for quite some time.
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post #5903 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 01:59 PM
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4k should have more than likely have only included the wider color gamut and the 4k signal, not HDR. The HDR implementation should have been done purely by an SDR > HDR conversion algorithm implemented by manufacturers. That way none of this mess, and no extra work for the post-processing for the studios converting stuff to HDR.

Would the results be as good as custom mastering that is then tone mapped, initially better, much better.
Would the results always be as good as custom mastering, no idea, probably not but should be close enough.

Sometimes things just happen backwards, because the more advanced dynamic tone mapping is also enhancing the contrast anyways, not just converting to a smaller dynamic range.

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post #5904 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Not sure much benefit to e-shift in gaming, I would turn it off to be honest. The 4k on e-shifting projectors doesn't look like Native 4k, it is more of an anti-aliasing effect, which can be a negative on the desktop. Though frankly, it's neither here nor their to me, it's just if you compre e-shifted 4k to Native 4k on a PC or gaming device, this is the one area where the Native 4k really outshines these e-shifters in a serious way.



I think most don't game using e-shift, but I could be wrong, don't remember the lag with e-shift on.
Wondering how 4k gaming would be on, say, an Epson 6050UB which appears to have low latency.
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post #5905 of 5910 Old 01-20-2020, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mkiv808 View Post
Wondering how 4k gaming would be on, say, an Epson 6050UB which appears to have low latency.
None of the e-shifters are going to provide that crisp truly Native 4k mode that you seek for gaming, that is more the job of a Native 4k projector. The closest thing is probably a DLP 4k shifter, but most are around 60+ ms lag, but not bad. I don't remember which DLP 4k shifter is best for gaming, you'd have to investigate in the sub-3k threads for that answer.

Beyond that, your answer to 4k gaming is a Native 4k projector, but they aren't cheap.

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post #5906 of 5910 Old 01-23-2020, 11:33 AM
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Hello,

May I ask which custum curve you use to display LLDV (dolby vision) on a RS4OO, I have a UB9000 and via the HDfury vertex2 you can force it to transmit LLDV without the RS400 seeing it and going into range D, but I think the color pricies look a bit washed-out?
To be honest, I didn't go through the whole tread, just the last few pages.

Thank you in advance for the answer.

Gunther
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post #5907 of 5910 Old 01-23-2020, 11:36 AM
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I have a UB9000 and via the HDfury vertex2 you can force it to transmit LLDV without the RS400 seeing it and going into range D, but I think the color pricies look a bit washed-out?
What curve were you using when you found it “washed out”.
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post #5908 of 5910 Old 01-23-2020, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What curve were you using when you found it “washed out”.
Javs V3 4000nit

the colours seem to be over-saturated
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post #5909 of 5910 Old 01-23-2020, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by guntje View Post
Javs V3 4000nit

the colours seem to be over-saturated
Yes, the colours (in particular red) can be oversaturated, hence the custom profile (when needed). However, LLDV (forced or not) should not not washed out compared with HDR10.
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post #5910 of 5910 Old 01-23-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by guntje View Post
Hello,

May I ask which custum curve you use to display LLDV (dolby vision) on a RS4OO, I have a UB9000 and via the HDfury vertex2 you can force it to transmit LLDV without the RS400 seeing it and going into range D, but I think the color pricies look a bit washed-out?
Dominic is the local expert on this stuff. I'm pretty new to HDR stuff and even the newer calibration standards, just got the first HDR projector about a month ago. I have had HDR on a TV for a long time, but I never bothered with it much as I barely watch a TV anymore.

So like you, I'm still wrestling with the details. I only have watched like 3 HDR movies so far, and I'm guessing they were all HDR10.

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