Optoma at CES 2016 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Optoma at CES 2016

Optoma showed a prototype of an LED-illuminated projector based on the new Texas Instruments "faux-K" DLP DMD chip. I don't know what the price will be, but I assume it will be over $3000 since it's a new technology.

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post #2 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 12:33 PM
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I like how Optoma's rep described CRT TV's as "one pixel displays." Ultimately the proof will be in the pudding, if TI's chip renders a clean resolution test pattern at 4K resolution, I don't care how it got there, as long as it works. Hopefully you'll have an answer for us sooner than later, Scott. The world has been waiting for a genuinely affordable 4K projection home theater solution.
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post #3 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 12:42 PM
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I was really hoping for a true 4k DLP, but if this looks considerably better than my 1080p Optoma, I may jump in once it hits a nice price point (~$3K). I'd like to see an A/B with the Sony 4K LCD.

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post #4 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 12:54 PM
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I'll be interested to see a consumer ready version. Perhaps at Cedia this year !
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post #5 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I like how Optoma's rep described CRT TV's as "one pixel displays." Ultimately the proof will be in the pudding, if TI's chip renders a clean resolution test pattern at 4K resolution, I don't care how it got there, as long as it works. Hopefully you'll have an answer for us sooner than later, Scott. The world has been waiting for a genuinely affordable 4K projection home theater solution.
Seeing as how the Sony VPL-VW665ES, which has a native 4K imaging chip, can't even come remotely close to resolving a 4K resolution test pattern, I wouldn't worry about it too much. We've seen displays in the past that do well with certain test patterns but that doesn't translate to a better image than those that don't do as well with the same ones.

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post #6 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 01:42 PM
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Although it's not a native 4k projector, the difference I see between this and the JVC 'fauxK' projectors is that this one appears to have half of the 8 million pixels so if the technology can 'wiggle' each pixel fast enough to create 2, then maybe they can truly resolve all 8 million pixels .. unlike the JVC which only has 1/4 of the 8 million pixels and 'wiggles' them diagonally to get to 4 million (if I understand both technologies correctly).. ie. half the resolution.

The other thing I've taken away from the Sony discussion threads is that for 4k projection, the quality of the lenses is critical to the overall sharpness and some of the newer lower model number Sony's are trying to use more plastic lens components and are noticably worse than the top end models. People have claimed that the more expensive lens are not subject to Moore's law so it's difficult to bring the cost down similar to what people have come to expect with other electronic products which either have 'yield-dependent' components (eg. flat panels) that do get less expensive over time as production processes improve .. or those products that have a significant number of electronic circuit components (eg. AVRs with digital signal processing) where Moore's law typically applies. So, it will be very interesting to see the price point and read the in-depth reviews. I also thought I read that the lumens are quite low so may be quite a while before they can do anything approaching HDR.
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post #7 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 01:44 PM
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Nice to see the new DLP chips are being incorporated into new products. Will be tracking this one. I am not sensitive to rainbows so DLP is my preferance.
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post #8 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Optoma showed a prototype of an LED-illuminated projector based on the new Texas Instruments "faux-K" DLP DMD chip. I don't know what the price will be, but I assume it will be over $3000 since it's a new technology.

https://youtu.be/KsslXqkhx7Y
There's nothing "faux" about TI's chip. It delivers all 8.3 million pixels of a 4k source. The fact that it does so by ultra-fast switching does not make it "faux". JVC and Epson e-shift are "faux". But this negatively charged terminology or characterization is not appropriately applied to TI's methodology for rendering 4K.
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post #9 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanR View Post
Although it's not a native 4k projector, the difference I see between this and the JVC 'fauxK' projectors is that this one appears to have half of the 8 million pixels so if the technology can 'wiggle' each pixel fast enough to create 2, then maybe they can truly resolve all 8 million pixels .. unlike the JVC which only has 1/4 of the 8 million pixels and 'wiggles' them diagonally to get to 4 million (if I understand both technologies correctly).. ie. half the resolution.

The other thing I've taken away from the Sony discussion threads is that for 4k projection, the quality of the lenses is critical to the overall sharpness and some of the newer lower model number Sony's are trying to use more plastic lens components and are noticably worse than the top end models. People have claimed that the more expensive lens are not subject to Moore's law so it's difficult to bring the cost down similar to what people have come to expect with other electronic products which either have 'yield-dependent' components (eg. flat panels) that do get less expensive over time as production processes improve .. or those products that have a significant number of electronic circuit components (eg. AVRs with digital signal processing) where Moore's law typically applies. So, it will be very interesting to see the price point and read the in-depth reviews. I also thought I read that the lumens are quite low so may be quite a while before they can do anything approaching HDR.
All good points. Optoma's past LED projectors have neither been bright, nor have they had the best contrast ratios. So, it will be interesting to see if they can up their game this year. I'd better plan on a full 3 days again at Cedia this year too.
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post #10 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 04:33 PM
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I understood they were planning to roll out this projector by July. Also, the light output at CES was a nominal 1400 lumens with the Optima guy suggesting they were aiming for a brighter output on the production units. I really wonder what the native black will be like, fingers crossed
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Any indication about color gamut or high dynamic range?
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post #12 of 70 Old 01-12-2016, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
There's nothing "faux" about TI's chip. It delivers all 8.3 million pixels of a 4k source. The fact that it does so by ultra-fast switching does not make it "faux". JVC and Epson e-shift are "faux". But this negatively charged terminology or characterization is not appropriately applied to TI's methodology for rendering 4K.
If the final images have 8 million pixels with no correlation between them then I agree, but do we really know that is the case?

For instance, do you know what shape the pixels are on the chips and what shape they are on the screen? I would love to see a close up grid of the pixels on the screen. At CEDIA they had a rope to keep people from getting too close.

I wanted to get a picture of a small trademark symbol on a video they were playing, but couldn't get my camera to capture it from the distance I had to be.

I found the video they were playing at the show on Youtube. It is a Harmonic Raptor UltraHD video. I played it today on my RS500 through the Roku 4 and tried to stand at about the same viewing ratio from the screen. There it seemed like I could make out the trademark symbol about as well as I could with the Optoma at CES. Could have been my eyes that were limited though.

Here is a close up picture of it from my JVC.



Might be interesting to look at it with some of the 4K projectors with 4k chips. I'm guessing it would be more clear in general with them.

Thanks,
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post #13 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
If the final images have 8 million pixels with no correlation between them then I agree, but do we really know that is the case?
I guess the jury is still out but all marketing Ive seen from TI indicates this is the case. I guess we will know more closer to release.
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post #14 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 09:53 AM
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Seems to me that if there are not 8 million distinct pixels being displayed, it would be difficult if not impossible to reproduce the test patterns with greater accuracy than the JVC, Epson, and Sony: http://www.trustedreviews.com/texas-...he-home-review
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post #15 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 11:01 AM
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this is awesome, guess I will have to keep a look out on this and the tech progress, like imagic said, dont care how it gets the 4k resolution as long as it looks like 4k resolution in my eyes and is accurate.

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post #16 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 11:05 AM
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In the thread on a BenQ projector I wrote about the technology from 10 years ago with rear projectors (with links): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post40549066

It seems quite likely that the mirrors are on a 45 degree diagonal grid, using a 1/2 pixel shift horizontally (or vertically).
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post #17 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post
In the thread on a BenQ projector I wrote about the technology from 10 years ago with rear projectors (with links): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post40549066

It seems quite likely that the mirrors are on a 45 degree diagonal grid, using a 1/2 pixel shift horizontally (or vertically).
I tried figuring it out from your links, but there it looks like the pixels overlap in the final images and if that is the case then I would call it a form of "faux" K. Not the same as JVCs with only 2 million pixels, but still not the same as displaying 8 million unique pixels. Of course, we could argue about whether pixels on the screen are supposed to overlap, but even if people say there are supposed to overlap I'm not sure this is the way they are supposed to overlap. Of course, there is a certain amount of subtlety to this.

I would love to see some close up pictures, especially if somebody could capture some at 250 fps with a phone camera in slow motion mode, or with another camera at high frame rate.

As far as I can tell the only way for 4 million pixels on a chip to create 8 million pixels on screen with no correlation between them is for the chip to have 50% or less fill ratio. Otherwise after the shift the first set of chip pixels will overlap with the 2nd set of chip pixels. A low fill ratio would hurt both white level and contrast ratio, so my bet is that the points that end up on the screen are not completely independent.

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post #18 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
As far as I can tell the only way for 4 million pixels on a chip to create 8 million pixels on screen with no correlation between them is for the chip to have 50% or less fill ratio.
Not sure thats a problem at all. I think someone said in another thread the pixels shift insanely fast. Like 9000 (sounds a little crazy?) times a second. At that speed, Im guessing it will look like all pixels are on screen at all times. Much like the DLPs colorwheel really only displays one colour at any given time, it still looks RBG. Im not sure.

Anyways, here is from trustedreviews today:

"The potentially controversial part is that it actually carries only four million mirrors. It delivers the eight million pixels of a 4K picture by using the DMD’s phenomenal switching speed to enable each mirror to deliver two distinct and unique pixels for each frame of the image.

TI is confident that any device to use its new chipset will accord with the Consumer Electronics Association’s definition of what constitutes a true 4K device.

Read in full here: http://www.trustedreviews.com/texas-...he-home-review

TI´s own bragging video claims perfect alignment. Wouldn't that be difficult with overlapping pixels? Im not sure, I dont really know how that would work. Their video also claim each mirror creates two distinct and unique pixels etc.

Not sure we will really know for sure until TI makes some statement clarifying whats really going on.

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post #19 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 01:57 PM
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Not sure thats a problem at all. I think someone said in another thread the pixels shift insanely fast. Like 9000 (sounds a little crazy?) times a second.
This is including that they are shown very quickly compared to human vision, which means we can add up all the sub-frames and consider them as a frame.

If the pixels are a diamond shape and shift horizontally by 1/2 of the pixel width then they will overlap.

I'm not saying this wouldn't qualify by somebody's definition of 8 million pixels. We already have issues with pixels overlapping due to things like lens issues, but if we look at just where the projector is trying to put the information overlapping pixels means they have correlation that is not meant to be there with normal 8 million pixel displays.

The stuff I read about a diamond shape with 1/2 a pixel shift would not be 8 million unique pixels on screen, but may be very close to 8 million chip pixels with the diffusion that comes from lenses on real projectors.

CRTs were not perfect in avoiding overlapping pixels, which is one reason I mentioned that there are some subtle issues here about how pixels are counted.

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If it can fully resolve a 4K test pattern, I am willing to call it true 4K, no matter how they do it. But not sure that is what should be used, because the Sony 4K projectors below the VW1100, I don't think they fully resolve a 4K test pattern, but they do use 4K chips, so this does blur the definition.
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post #21 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 03:09 PM
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Here's a graphic of my understanding of what TI is probably doing (with comparisons to 1920x1080 and to UHD (3840x2160). This does allow individual control of 8 million pixels, though they do overlap. No free lunch.
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post #22 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post
Here's a graphic of my understanding of what TI is probably doing (with comparisons to 1920x1080 and to UHD (3840x2160). This does allow individual control of 8 million pixels, though they do overlap. No free lunch.
That looks good.

I wonder why kind of MTF they would have for single pixel wide vertical lines in 4K space. They would resolve that to some degree by just turning on the greed diamonds in your diagram, but then the "black" between the pixels would likely be fairly gray. Not that it wouldn't be from less than perfect lenses or interaction between pixels on the chips with some other designs though.

How about single pixel wide lines at a 45 degree angle in 4k space? How would they do that?

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post #23 of 70 Old 01-13-2016, 03:29 PM
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hey more importantly we are talking about the beginnings of affordable projectors in the 4k space and for that I can get excited.
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Improved graphic attached.

BTW, any ideas on how the shift would be performed?
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As interesting as this new chip may be, Im even more excited about this new philips lightsource. What can we realistically expect from a production model? Anywhere near 2000 lumen?
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As interesting as this new chip may be, Im even more excited about this new philips lightsource. What can we realistically expect from a production model? Anywhere near 2000 lumen?
They said they're at 1200 with the prototype but they think they can go higher.
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Originally Posted by JRock3x8 View Post
They said they're at 1200 with the prototype but they think they can go higher.
With JVC getting 1,600 plus calibrated lumens and 4,500 rated hours from a lamp based projector, they are going to need to get more than 1,200 lumens from this new light source. Other wise, there is very little incentive to buyers to pay more for the new light source in a projector.
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post #29 of 70 Old 01-14-2016, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
With JVC getting 1,600 plus calibrated lumens and 4,500 rated hours from a lamp based projector, they are going to need to get more than 1,200 lumens from this new light source. Other wise, there is very little incentive to buyers to pay more for the new light source in a projector.
that's fair but

a) they said they can go higher and I expect they will (I doubt they make it to 2,000 with this year's model)

b) there's a cost element to this as well. I expect Optoma's projector to cost substantially less than other 4k projectors.

c) they said the lamps rate in the 100's of 1000's of hours so basically they never need to be replaced.

side note : I'm still not sure what Scott meant by "faux-k" - either they have 8 million mirrors or they don't?
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post #30 of 70 Old 01-14-2016, 02:17 PM
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... side note : I'm still not sure what Scott meant by "faux-k" - either they have 8 million mirrors or they don't?
They only have "4 million" physical pixels. But with shifting, 8 million pixel positions can be illuminated.

Essentially: "Odd" 4M / Shift / "Even" 4M. The pixels have twice the area that they "should" have. Hence they overlap. (See my diagram above.)

Hence Scott's "faux-k".
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