Runco out of the projector business? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 04-18-2016, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Runco out of the projector business?

Hi,

I read this news about Runco:

http://www.cepro.com/article/goodbye_runco

Is it true?

Best regards.
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post #2 of 27 Old 04-18-2016, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpr View Post
Hi,

I read this news about Runco:

http://www.cepro.com/article/goodbye_runco

Is it true?

Best regards.
Sorry to say...yes it is true. End of an era...
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post #3 of 27 Old 04-18-2016, 01:19 PM
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The sister projector to the Runco, Planar 8150 was one of my favorite projectors I've owned...then became a JVC convert.

I hadn't heard about Runco.

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post #4 of 27 Old 04-18-2016, 02:07 PM
 
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Really sad but not surprising. TI is at fault here for not continuing to advance their DLP technology. Companies like Runco and Sim2 can only do so much past TI white papers to extract every last ounce of performance from the DMD. Sony, Epson and JVC simply have more to offer all around at the present time as far as image quality goes. I feel DPI and a few other higher end DLP companies will stay around longer simply because they have the commercial/pro market to sell to. More often than not they're looking for long term stability and lumen output. Luckily DLP still has the advantage here.
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post #5 of 27 Old 04-19-2016, 02:34 PM
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Wow that is a shame, I would have thought there would be more conversation about it. It must have been too much competition in the lower price range and a reduced audience for those high ticket models. Plus the lack of advancement (native contrast) in the panel technology didn't help them.

so now we have Runco/Planar, Mitsubishi, Sharp and Panasonic out of the home theater projector market. You guys better be nice to JVC, Sony and Epson in the meantime. Those 150" Roll up OLED screens are at least a few years away.
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post #6 of 27 Old 04-19-2016, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Wow that is a shame, I would have thought there would be more conversation about it. It must have been too much competition in the lower price range and a reduced audience for those high ticket models. Plus the lack of advancement (native contrast) in the panel technology didn't help them.

so now we have Runco/Planar, Mitsubishi, Sharp and Panasonic out of the home theater projector market. You guys better be nice to JVC, Sony and Epson in the meantime. Those 150" Roll up OLED screens are at least a few years away.
I do not keep up with Panasonic. Did they finally announce that they are officially out of the market? I have been expecting it for over a year now.
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post #7 of 27 Old 04-19-2016, 03:21 PM
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I don't think it was officially announced but the Panasonic 8000 is coming on 3 years old and no word from them in a while. They would need a major reboot of that projector to be competitive today.

probably more profitable to make $600+ UHD BD players.
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post #8 of 27 Old 04-19-2016, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I don't think it was officially announced but the Panasonic 8000 is coming on 3 years old and no word from them in a while. They would need a major reboot of that projector to be competitive today.

probably more profitable to make $600+ UHD BD players.
Yeah, I think they are out also, just not officially announcing it as long as they have parts to make the 8000.
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post #9 of 27 Old 04-20-2016, 03:54 AM
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Starting to worry slightly about JVC and Epson too.

With no native ultra HD panels people will be switching over to Sony sooner or later once most of us have converted over to Ultra HD Blu-Ray.

If JVC does not have native ultra HD panels at cedia this year, I will for sure be concerned.

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post #10 of 27 Old 04-20-2016, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
With no native ultra HD panels people will be switching over to Sony sooner or later once most of us have converted over to Ultra HD Blu-Ray.
It sort of seems the opposite, now that there are real 4K sources and people have actually compared Sony and JVC, the impression I get is that the advantage of "native 4K" is more myth than fact, and people are swaying towards JVC. End user reports and reviews say that Sony doesn't have much, if any, detail advantage on 4K content over JVC (not sure about Epson). Of course I would be more worried if Sony US actually had reasonable pricing, if they weren't asking 5x the price of what their competitors are charging.

I'd be more worried about Sony and the panel degradation issue.
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post #11 of 27 Old 04-20-2016, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Starting to worry slightly about JVC and Epson too.

With no native ultra HD panels people will be switching over to Sony sooner or later once most of us have converted over to Ultra HD Blu-Ray.

If JVC does not have native ultra HD panels at cedia this year, I will for sure be concerned.
Since JVC has already done 8K with their technology and has been producing laser projectors for a couple of years, you have nothing to worry about. It is a matter of timing. As in when is it cost feasible to produce and sell these products.
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post #12 of 27 Old 04-20-2016, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

so now we have Runco/Planar, Mitsubishi, Sharp and Panasonic out of the home theater projector market. You guys better be nice to JVC, Sony and Epson in the meantime. Those 150" Roll up OLED screens are at least a few years away.
Yeah, it's getting a bit nerve-wracking for home projection at this point.
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post #13 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 12:02 PM
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Many flat panel manufacturers have 80 and 85" UHD LED panels, Samsung has an 88", and Vizio has a 120" set. Manufacturers are showing larger and larger panels at CEDIA and other shows. Home theater projectors seem like a small niche market. In 5 or 10 years we may see sub $2,000 100"+ flat panels. If or when that happens do you really expect home theater projection to survive?

Martin
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post #14 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhconley View Post
Many flat panel manufacturers have 80 and 85" UHD LED panels, Samsung has an 88", and Vizio has a 120" set. Manufacturers are showing larger and larger panels at CEDIA and other shows. Home theater projectors seem like a small niche market. In 5 or 10 years we may see sub $2,000 100"+ flat panels. If or when that happens do you really expect home theater projection to survive?

Martin
A lot of people here have screens from 120" to 160"+, so I don't see the threat. Also, LED flat panels are not capable of producing the same quality image as a very good front projector. The native contrast is not very good even on the best LED flat panels.

I have a hard time envisioning a 120" flat panel for under $2000 even in 10 years that are mass produced. Such a niche market would likely go front projection anyway. For one, it will still be too hard to transport and to get into doorways for a lot of people; second, it goes back to the quality of image again. A lot of people want AT for audio, as well.

When I see 80" displays at Best Buy/Magnolia, they seem tiny compared to my 9 foot wide scope screen...especially talking scope movies.

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post #15 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
A lot of people here have screens from 120" to 160"+, so I don't see the threat. Also, LED flat panels are not capable of producing the same quality image as a very good front projector. The native contrast is not very good even on the best LED flat panels.

I have a hard time envisioning a 120" flat panel for under $2000 even in 10 years that are mass produced. Such a niche market would likely go front projection anyway. For one, it will still be too hard to transport and to get into doorways for a lot of people; second, it goes back to the quality of image again. A lot of people want AT for audio, as well.

When I see 80" displays at Best Buy/Magnolia, they seem tiny compared to my 9 foot wide scope screen...especially talking scope movies.
Yep, packaging and shipping of a flat panel that size will cost a lot. My guess would be close to $1,000 right there.
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post #16 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 01:57 PM
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Once they start making flexible flat panels to fit anywhere. I'm sure our projectors will be dying out. They are already going that way. Most here are more interested in high quality images from our projectors. Let's hope at least we can get reasonable price 4K projectors with all the benefits before then.

There are 80in 4k TVs that are under $3000, it's just a matter of time before 100in TVs are that price and 100+ inches are affordable with free setup and delivery. I for one prefer projection but I'm greatly out numbered 99 to 1. I will choose a 100in with a RS400 over any priced flat panel from 80-120 inches.
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post #17 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Once they start making flexible flat panels to fit anywhere. I'm sure our projectors will be dying out. They are already going that way. Most here are more interested in high quality images from our projectors. Let's hope at least we can get reasonable price 4K projectors with all the benefits before then.

There are 80in 4k TVs that are under $3000, it's just a matter of time before 100in TVs are that price and 100+ inches are affordable with free setup and delivery. I for one prefer projection but I'm greatly out numbered 99 to 1. I will choose a 100in with a RS400 over any priced flat panel from 80-120 inches.

Lot easier to put a projector on the back seat and stick the boxed fixed frame screen through the passenger window to the back seat than strap an 80-120 in. TV on top of a
Yugo!
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post #18 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 02:47 PM
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Lot easier to put a projector on the back seat and stick the boxed fixed frame screen through the passenger window to the back seat than strap an 80-120 in. TV on top of a
Yugo!
It's much easier to put any TV in a living room than a projector. I can't just put a projector in my living room without treating the entire room. Projection cause for effort to get the best image. Anyone can buy a TV and set it up in a room, but for a projector, it's more work.
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post #19 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 03:03 PM
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Let's see how the foldable screen thing shapes up in the next decade or so, because it's not going to become a realistic option anytime soon, that's for sure. And above a certain size there will almost certainly always be a market for projection anyway.

I mean, the OLED technology has longevity issues, issues related to burn-in, color drift and what not. It is also very expensive, and a 120 inch "foldable" OLED will in all likelyhood be enormously expensive even 10 years from now, if it exists at all by then. And this isn't considering whether or not they have sorted out what seems to be the inherent weakness of longevity with the OLED technology. If people are going to splash thousands of dollars on such a screen, it has to last longer and be more stable than the current ones.

In other words, I think there will always be a niche market for projection. And even if the price of OLED, or some other screen technology where the picture emanates from the surface itself, ever comes down in price and ease of use to compete at those screen sizes, I still think projection will own a part of the market simply because of people who prefer the look of a projected image. Much like vinyl LPs in music, or mechanical watches, there is something beautifully "analog" about a projected image where the light reflects off a surface. It has a special character to it that's hard to put into words, but it's definitely different than the pixel-lit lightpath that TV panels give you.
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post #20 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 03:19 PM
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Even if those flexible screens never pan out, still projection is hurting. If it wasn't, there would still be more HT competition. JVC and Sony seem to be providing us with great quality projectors but they aren't in the average budget, which I'm sure is under $2000. Basically, projection is not growing and that's why many has got out of the business. If so many companies couldn't compete with 1080p, how are the current companies going to compete in the UHD era when things are double the price?
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post #21 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhconley View Post
Many flat panel manufacturers have 80 and 85" UHD LED panels, Samsung has an 88", and Vizio has a 120" set. Manufacturers are showing larger and larger panels at CEDIA and other shows. Home theater projectors seem like a small niche market. In 5 or 10 years we may see sub $2,000 100"+ flat panels. If or when that happens do you really expect home theater projection to survive?

Martin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob-Houston View Post

Lot easier to put a projector on the back seat and stick the boxed fixed frame screen through the passenger window to the back seat than strap an 80-120 in. TV on top of a
Yugo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
It's much easier to put any TV in a living room than a projector. I can't just put a projector in my living room without treating the entire room. Projection cause for effort to get the best image. Anyone can buy a TV and set it up in a room, but for a projector, it's more work.
It's not a one or the other thing, there's room for both. I'd venture though that the number of "living rooms" with room for >100" screens is smaller than the number of "dedicated" HTs.

Remember that "room" includes aesthetics too. What's the WAF of a 120" black box hanging in a nicely decorated living room?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Even if those flexible screens never pan out, still projection is hurting. If it wasn't, there would still be more HT competition. JVC and Sony seem to be providing us with great quality projectors but they aren't in the average budget, which I'm sure is under $2000. Basically, projection is not growing and that's why many has got out of the business. If so many companies couldn't compete with 1080p, how are the current companies going to compete in the UHD era when things are double the price?
The future of HT may well be direct-lit LED:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...ture-ever.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ult...0-inch-4k.html

They are assembled from smaller modules. They are very, very expensive today, but their pixel size is decreasing and the cost is coming down, eventually...
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post #22 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
It's not a one or the other thing, there's room for both. I'd venture though that the number of "living rooms" with room for >100" screens is smaller than the number of "dedicated" HTs.

Remember that "room" includes aesthetics too. What's the WAF of a 120" black box hanging in a nicely decorated living room?
This is a good point as well. I doubt that future OLED foldables will ever be able to be rolled up and down as needed like a projector screen. Having a >100" black box on the wall permanentely will not be a feasible option for many, as you say. For the niche dedicated home cinema market my guess is that projection will remain one of the main players for the forseeable future. Foldable screens might become an option at some point as well, but as you say it's not necessarily an either or thing. I think there will always be someone that prefer the analog look of a projected image, and above a certain size it will remain the most cost effective and realistic solution.

Last edited by kohe321; 04-21-2016 at 04:25 PM.
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post #23 of 27 Old 04-21-2016, 04:33 PM
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Yeah, it's getting a bit nerve-wracking for home projection at this point.
I wouldn't worry. Business and commercial / industrial / Government use of projectors will keep projector manufacturers profitable into the future. Home theater projectors are just a subset of those. Just don't expect good projectors to ever be " cheap ". They are a luxury item.
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post #24 of 27 Old 04-27-2016, 09:47 AM
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Panasonic still has LCDs in the portable class. Not sold as HT. Runco hasn't been marketed in a few years, and Planar was bought by Leyard, so now a system integrator house and controlroom product, and flat panel subsidiary to Leyard.
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post #25 of 27 Old 04-27-2016, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Since JVC has already done 8K with their technology and has been producing laser projectors for a couple of years, you have nothing to worry about. It is a matter of timing. As in when is it cost feasible to produce and sell these products.
It abandoned full 8K imagers back in 2010 or 2009. JVC has an 8K lumens RGB LASER 8K e-shift projector, demonstrator, as the commercially available units are all LASER-Phosphor and considerably less bright.
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post #26 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 01:33 PM
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JVC, Epson and Sony are the only ones I see surviving in the home theater realm. Maybe if TI ever came out with a chip to complete other players might have a chance but I'm skeptical that will ever happen.

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post #27 of 27 Old 05-04-2016, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
JVC, Epson and Sony are the only ones I see surviving in the home theater realm. Maybe if TI ever came out with a chip to complete other players might have a chance but I'm skeptical that will ever happen.
TI has come out with a smaller 4K chip, that is going into lower cost projectors.
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