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post #31 of 69 Old 05-02-2016, 01:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vaskokvas View Post
Hello guys,

Sorry if I'm missing something, but why nobody discusses just announced Epson Pro L 3LCD laser series? Looks so promising, especially counting ultra short throw lens option. Oh, yes, it will not be cheap, but I guess it will not climb the Sony laser levels.
Are you referring to the Epson LS10000 ?
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post #32 of 69 Old 05-02-2016, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by twinturbo11 View Post
Are you referring to the Epson LS10000 ?
No, he is referring to Epson's large venue Pro series laser projectors. Go to bottom of this page: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...?UseCookie=yes
These are not home theater projectors. They are high brightness large venue projectors. The contrast spec will not be as good as the Sony, JVC or even the Epson LS series projectors, but they will be much brighter.
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post #33 of 69 Old 05-02-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If you wait, I think there will be more options, for 4K with laser, but you better have deep pockets. I am guessing that it will be well north of 10k street pricing.

Thanks i trust your judgment when it come to this stuff.... Because my next PJ purchase i plan on keeping this PJ for at least three years. Looks like RS500 going to be my choice for now. I'm not willing to go that deep so your answer makes me rest a little easy.

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post #34 of 69 Old 05-02-2016, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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guys, I have been doing some research, I think you are right... the new JVCs are the best bang for the buck right now. They've always had amazing contrast but were dark-ish. Now they have even better contrast and are brighter than before, at lower prices than competition, making them essentially perfect with the sole exception that they are not true 4k. But they could be a good investment for the next 2-3 years, until 4k laser drops in price.

One thing that bugs me is the vast confusion JVC created on model names for different regions. Some start with X, others with RS, others with HD. It's rather confusing when reading online posts and forums.
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post #35 of 69 Old 05-02-2016, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaskokvas View Post
Hello guys,

Sorry if I'm missing something, but why nobody discusses just announced Epson Pro L 3LCD laser series? Looks so promising, especially counting ultra short throw lens option. Oh, yes, it will not be cheap, but I guess it will not climb the Sony laser levels.
Epson's 1980 or 1985 projectors are less than $1500 and uber bright at ~5000 lumens. Unfortunately their black levels/contrast is not great. There is a bit of curve of diminishing returns it seems when lumens go higher than 3000 using traditional bulb technology. That's whats cool about laser, the light is simply turn off in black scenes (from my understanding), but then bright scenes are really bright.
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post #36 of 69 Old 05-03-2016, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by twinturbo11 View Post
guys, I have been doing some research, I think you are right... the new JVCs are the best bang for the buck right now. They've always had amazing contrast but were dark-ish. Now they have even better contrast and are brighter than before, at lower prices than competition, making them essentially perfect with the sole exception that they are not true 4k. But they could be a good investment for the next 2-3 years, until 4k laser drops in price.

One thing that bugs me is the vast confusion JVC created on model names for different regions. Some start with X, others with RS, others with HD. It's rather confusing when reading online posts and forums.
Same projectors, sold through different distribution channels. Look at the title of the JVC owners threads and you will see the like models grouped together. Except the RS500 and RS600 are grouped in one thread, since they are similar. If we can help answer your questions, give us a call.
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post #37 of 69 Old 05-03-2016, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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cool thanks
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post #38 of 69 Old 05-04-2016, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, he is referring to Epson's large venue Pro series laser projectors.
These are not home theater projectors. They are high brightness large venue projectors. The contrast spec will not be as good as the Sony, JVC or even the Epson LS series projectors, but they will be much brighter.

Well... what I can find from Epson's brochure about (for example) Epson Pro L1100U is that it is beautifully suited for home theater with it's 6000 Lumens and Contrast Ratio of 2500000. Option of ultra short throw lens is wonderful, but sure not free pleasure. Noise with such brightness is high, but in silent mode it is 31db with 30% reduced brightness (still 4000). So it looks like about at least 2500-3000 calibrated lumens in quiet mode, 2,500,000 contrast and possibility to place it virtually just in front of the screen - doesn't matter if it is positioned as 'large venue', it is great (great, great, great!) for HT. Yes, it come with a lot of useless for home features, but the main thing is price, it easily might come $15,000 or even more...
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post #39 of 69 Old 05-04-2016, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by vaskokvas View Post
Well... what I can find from Epson's brochure about (for example) Epson Pro L1100U is that it is beautifully suited for home theater with it's 6000 Lumens and Contrast Ratio of 2500000. Option of ultra short throw lens is wonderful, but sure not free pleasure. Noise with such brightness is high, but in silent mode it is 31db with 30% reduced brightness (still 4000). So it looks like about at least 2500-3000 calibrated lumens in quiet mode, 2,500,000 contrast and possibility to place it virtually just in front of the screen - doesn't matter if it is positioned as 'large venue', it is great (great, great, great!) for HT. Yes, it come with a lot of useless for home features, but the main thing is price, it easily might come $15,000 or even more...
Don't get caught up in the BS contrast spec. Being able to turn off the LED's is how they get such a high number. The LS10000 was said to have infinite contrast per its specs and yet actual native contrast is around 22,000:1. Same goes for the lumens. The Epson 5030 is rated for 2,400 lumens. The 5030 calibrates to around 700 lumens. The LS10000 is rated for 1,500 lumens and it calibrates to around 1,000. So knock off at least 1/3rd of the lumens and that is in high lamp. So that takes it down to around 3,350 calibrated lumens, in high lamp. Most likely you are not going to be around 2,500 to 3,000 calibrated lumens in low lamp.
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post #40 of 69 Old 05-04-2016, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Don't get caught up in the BS contrast spec. Being able to turn off the LED's is how they get such a high number. The LS10000 was said to have infinite contrast per its specs and yet actual native contrast is around 22,000:1. Same goes for the lumens. The Epson 5030 is rated for 2,400 lumens. The 5030 calibrates to around 700 lumens. The LS10000 is rated for 1,500 lumens and it calibrates to around 1,000. So knock off at least 1/3rd of the lumens and that is in high lamp. So that takes it down to around 3,350 calibrated lumens, in high lamp. Most likely you are not going to be around 2,500 to 3,000 calibrated lumens in low lamp.
You might be very right, and most likely you are right, so we'll see, what the first reviewers will tell us. What I can say about myself, is if I'll get 2,000 and even 1,800 calibrated lumens in low lamp with contrast similar or close to LS10000 and ultra short throw lens, and it will be laser, stable in time, and it will cost altogether about $15,000 (and even a bit more) - I'll most likely try to get it, because those are the specs which I want and which nobody offered yet for the price, less than 40-50 kilobucks.
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post #41 of 69 Old 05-05-2016, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by vaskokvas View Post
You might be very right, and most likely you are right, so we'll see, what the first reviewers will tell us. What I can say about myself, is if I'll get 2,000 and even 1,800 calibrated lumens in low lamp with contrast similar or close to LS10000 and ultra short throw lens, and it will be laser, stable in time, and it will cost altogether about $15,000 (and even a bit more) - I'll most likely try to get it, because those are the specs which I want and which nobody offered yet for the price, less than 40-50 kilobucks.
Don't get me wrong, from what I was told the image looked very good. Just keep in mind, these are 1080P projectors.
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post #42 of 69 Old 05-11-2016, 06:07 AM
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Don't get me wrong, from what I was told the image looked very good. Just keep in mind, these are 1080P projectors.
4K is the last thing I keep in mind (if at all). First - to see the 4K resolution one have to sit too close to the screen to my taste and habit, second - 99% of movies, which I'm interested in will never appear in 4K (as some of them are not yet on Blu-ray, just DVD) or will, but in six-seven years or more and anyway will be not real 4K, and third - those movies, which will appear in 4K (all super-bat-spider-like and Linkon, Stalin and Moses fight zombies and vampires) are 99% totally out of my interest. My priorities - 1) don't like watching in total darkness, so i need best possible image quality on black of gray screen, meaning high enough brightness, 2) comfort of usage (ultra short throw), no service or additional calibrations in time, meaning laser and short throw lens, reasonable fan noise, less than sky-high price. All those things might be there in that pro line... we'll see.
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post #43 of 69 Old 05-11-2016, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by vaskokvas View Post
4K is the last thing I keep in mind (if at all). First - to see the 4K resolution one have to sit too close to the screen to my taste and habit, second - 99% of movies, which I'm interested in will never appear in 4K (as some of them are not yet on Blu-ray, just DVD) or will, but in six-seven years or more and anyway will be not real 4K, and third - those movies, which will appear in 4K (all super-bat-spider-like and Linkon, Stalin and Moses fight zombies and vampires) are 99% totally out of my interest. My priorities - 1) don't like watching in total darkness, so i need best possible image quality on black of gray screen, meaning high enough brightness, 2) comfort of usage (ultra short throw), no service or additional calibrations in time, meaning laser and short throw lens, reasonable fan noise, less than sky-high price. All those things might be there in that pro line... we'll see.
4K BD is not about resolution. That is probably one of the smallest advantages. With 4K BD you get a wider color space, HDR and 10 bit, rather than 8 bit. You combine those things with 4k resolution and you get a nice jump in picture quality. Just resolution alone, it would not really be worth spending the money.

Now for what you are wanting the Epson laser may be just the ticket. Once these are available, give us a call.
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post #44 of 69 Old 05-12-2016, 01:03 AM
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4K BD is not about resolution. That is probably one of the smallest advantages.
People keep saying this, and it needs to stop The 4K resolution advantage is very obvious to see and very welcome indeed. In fact, as I cannot yet display HDR/WGC on my Sony, 4K is the only thing that UHD is bringing me, and it is OUTSTANDING, compared to 1080p. No 1080p source comes close.
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post #45 of 69 Old 05-12-2016, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
People keep saying this, and it needs to stop The 4K resolution advantage is very obvious to see and very welcome indeed. In fact, as I cannot yet display HDR/WGC on my Sony, 4K is the only thing that UHD is bringing me, and it is OUTSTANDING, compared to 1080p. No 1080p source comes close.
Where did I say, it was no advantage? I said it was probably the smallest advantage. I guess I should include screen size and viewing distance in my statement. 99% of the people on AVS do not have 15' wide screens. Also I still think, even on your screen size that the improvement of 10 bits, HDR and DCI color space tops the resolution increase.
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post #46 of 69 Old 05-12-2016, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Where did I say, it was no advantage? I said it was probably the smallest advantage. I guess I should include screen size and viewing distance in my statement. 99% of the people on AVS do not have 15' wide screens. Also I still think, even on your screen size that the improvement of 10 bits, HDR and DCI color space tops the resolution increase.
Even at movies theaters, 2K DCPs can show an astonishing amount of detail.
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post #47 of 69 Old 05-12-2016, 10:37 PM
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Even at movies theaters, 2K DCPs can show an astonishing amount of detail.
4:4:4 DCP wins over 4:2:0 Bluray -- I'm still hoping for a downscaling mode in the UHD players to provide true 4:4:4 at 1080p SDR with P3/rec2020 saturations to play on my Mitsubishi HC5 with its P3 filter calibrated with my Lumagen 2020 until these mythical 4K unicorns arrive.
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post #48 of 69 Old 06-14-2016, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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hey guys, i'd like to revive this thread - have you guys seen the optoma 4k laser revealed at CES 2016 ? any thoughts on it ?
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post #49 of 69 Old 06-15-2016, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Don't get caught up in the BS contrast spec. Being able to turn off the LED's is how they get such a high number. The LS10000 was said to have infinite contrast per its specs and yet actual native contrast is around 22,000:1. Same goes for the lumens. The Epson 5030 is rated for 2,400 lumens. The 5030 calibrates to around 700 lumens. The LS10000 is rated for 1,500 lumens and it calibrates to around 1,000. So knock off at least 1/3rd of the lumens and that is in high lamp. So that takes it down to around 3,350 calibrated lumens, in high lamp. Most likely you are not going to be around 2,500 to 3,000 calibrated lumens in low lamp.

TSE told me years ago that the only way to really measure the on/off cr of one of these pjs is to turn one pixel on. That way the laser or leds have to turn on. Not sure how many are doing that for their measurements.

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post #50 of 69 Old 06-15-2016, 10:25 AM
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hey guys, i'd like to revive this thread - have you guys seen the optoma 4k laser revealed at CES 2016 ? any thoughts on it ?
Cedia 2016 starts in exactly 13 weeks. Check back then - hopefully there will be more new projectors besides the Optoma.

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post #51 of 69 Old 07-03-2016, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
People keep saying this, and it needs to stop The 4K resolution advantage is very obvious to see and very welcome indeed. In fact, as I cannot yet display HDR/WGC on my Sony, 4K is the only thing that UHD is bringing me, and it is OUTSTANDING, compared to 1080p. No 1080p source comes close.

Would any 4K BD even be allowed to output 1080p?

If not those FullHD is good enough arguments are moot.

Right now if I want Atmos on certain titles, I need to get the 4K BD - like the last two Star Trek movies or even The Martian.
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post #52 of 69 Old 07-03-2016, 12:00 PM
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I have a JVC RS600 and a Sony 5000ES projector. One is $10K retail, one is $60K retail. The JVC hold is own very well against the Sony. The JVC just wasn't bright enough to light up my 14' wide screen.
ccool96 - Considering that you have experience with the best projectors in the market today, it is very interesting to me, that you wrote that the JVC rs600 holds well against the $60k Sony. That is a HUGE plus for the JVC RS600. Mike at AVS was giving a great deal on the JVCs, a few months ago.. I didn't buy only because I thought that the Karl Zeiss lens on the Sony 1100 would show its superiority, in picture CLARITY, albeit with less contrast.
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post #53 of 69 Old 07-03-2016, 12:10 PM
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And then either paint your room walls and ceiling a dark color, or get a different screen.
twinturbo11: ccool96 is very correct. There are many posts about the importance of darkening your home theatre room - including side walls, carpet and ceiling. Obviously, you cannot darken a family room but I wish to re-emphasize the importance of darkening your theatre room. The contrast numbers of projectors have significantly diminished value, for light coloured rooms.
Personally, I dislike an all black room. Black ceiling is great - as is dark carpet, at least for 10 ft from the screen area.. Dark red and Grey work well enough.
As you can see, the thumbnail picture on the left was when my theatre was very light. When I darkened it, (pic below) there was a substantial difference.
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post #54 of 69 Old 07-26-2016, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks man .

Hey guys , any new exciting announcements on the projector front relevant to this thread ??
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post #55 of 69 Old 07-26-2016, 06:15 AM
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http://optics.org/news/5/6/21
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a ruling from the standards-setting International Electrochemical Commission (IEC) that laser projectors should be classified in the same way as lamp-based systems
A good sign.
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post #56 of 69 Old 07-28-2016, 07:29 PM
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4K BD is not about resolution. That is probably one of the smallest advantages. With 4K BD you get a wider color space, HDR ...
I am no expert at this.. but I thought I read the following. Can some one comment whether the following statements are true or false?
1. When you select the wider color space (DCI?), the picture becomes darker on the sony 1100 - Is this true or false?
2. HDR is great for flat screen TVS but there was no visible advantage of HDR on 140"+ wide screens - especially with projectors under 2000 lumens.. The HDR advantage is not substantial - and not very visible. Is this true or false?
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post #57 of 69 Old 07-28-2016, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by audvid View Post
I am no expert at this.. but I thought I read the following. Can some one comment whether the following statements are true or false?
1. When you select the wider color space (DCI?), the picture becomes darker on the sony 1100 - Is this true or false?
2. HDR is great for flat screen TVS but there was no visible advantage of HDR on 140"+ wide screens - especially with projectors under 2000 lumens.. The HDR advantage is not substantial - and not very visible. Is this true or false?
Well I can only comment on my personal experience.

4K resolution does make a big impact for me, its crisper, clearer and naturally includes much more detail, I would not go back to lesser res now even up-scaled 1080p won't cut it for me anymore.

HDR is pretty good on my 320ES and its only 1500 lumens but of course it could use more peak light output. Its all in the tweaks and don't forget no one really knows how to properly setup HDR yet, when its setup well its superb.

Color space should not dim the image IMO, HDR does so when you use HDR along with 2020 that combo does dim the image.

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post #58 of 69 Old 07-28-2016, 09:06 PM
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I am no expert at this.. but I thought I read the following. Can some one comment whether the following statements are true or false?
1. When you select the wider color space (DCI?), the picture becomes darker on the sony 1100 - Is this true or false?
2. HDR is great for flat screen TVS but there was no visible advantage of HDR on 140"+ wide screens - especially with projectors under 2000 lumens.. The HDR advantage is not substantial - and not very visible. Is this true or false?


1. True by about 10-15% as it engages a filter in the light path which is not there in Rec709

2. 140 inches WIDE? Or Diagonal? You would need a pretty bright image for HDR to really show its colours so to speak on a screen that large.

With 140 diagonal you would be lucky to get 150nits on a brand new lamp with 2000 lumens.

Wide colour gamut though is a pretty great thing. And you can actually tweak HDR to look pretty decent on any size screen really, it will just lack the pop of a television on a particularly large screen.

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post #59 of 69 Old 07-29-2016, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The Epson is not 4K and the JVC is not 4K nor laser. I agree that what you are asking for will not happen for a long time and possibly never. Now I can see it happening for less than 10k in the future.
Four or five ? years ago my son wanted a Qumi led 720p projector and it wowed in 720p in a dark room.

November 2015 I had a 2014 70 inch Vizio that was great with 1080p content and I wanted an upgrade and the LG PF1500 fit the bill to the point in a darkened room that several times we pause the movie just to stare at the picture.

This year I am just going to buy a brand new LG PF1500 and in a few years there will be a 2k or 4k projector for sub 2000 dollars.

Yamaha avr, diy l c r surround Behringer nx3000 dsp Fi car audio ib318 v2 310 cubic foot concrete ib lg pf 1500 projector.steren projector mount at diy 135 inch screen triple 15 boss build .
Pending buy fourty 6 inch drivers for some new mains new 4k projector 1240 cubic foot ib for 16 fi car audio ib318 v2 subwoofers 4 nx3000 dsp
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post #60 of 69 Old 07-29-2016, 04:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, he is referring to Epson's large venue Pro series laser projectors. Go to bottom of this page: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...?UseCookie=yes
These are not home theater projectors. They are high brightness large venue projectors. The contrast spec will not be as good as the Sony, JVC or even the Epson LS series projectors, but they will be much brighter.
Hi Mike,

These are rated at 1,000,000-1 contrast with dynamic iris, their color is second to none in the blu laser category presumably due to inorganic phosphor wheel, they looked great WITH STILL SLIDES, impressive p3 gamut, but that was on the big 25k one @ NAB.

I thought they showed a new 3,500 lumen home version coming up at the expo week in NYC?
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