Sony 300Es 1080P BR w/RC Vs UHD BR 4K Comparison - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony 300Es 1080P BR w/RC Vs UHD BR 4K Comparison

Hey all,

As per a discussion in another thread about my lukewarm feelings for UHD and its merits thus far vs the image I am already getting with 1080p content I am going to take several images of some 1080p Bluray material output from my HTPC using Reality Creation and comparing it against the same film from the UHD 4K Bluray Disc.

I took 8 images per still frame. One with Reality Creation Off, then a setting of 5 too show the usable spectrum of RC. Then I did exactly the same with the 4k content. EDIT** I had originally posted RC of 20 and 40 for each screenshot but it was crashing my Tapatalk app to open such an image heavy thread so I removed those.

Interestingly you will see very clearly that the Samsung K8500 and its SDR remapping of the HDR colour gamut is quite different to my calibrated image I am outputting from my HTPC. It does appear that whites are brighter, and contrast is a little more vivid, but upon looking closely at the highlights at a couple of these images its clear the Samsung is clipping some of the highlights and one can assume it is also clipping a little of the blacks too. At least to my cameras eyes. I didnt notice it until close inspection on the images so this may not be there IRL. The colour grade differential however is very real.

Sony is set up with most everything extra curricular turned off. Reality creation will be as mentioned above and the projector has been calibrated off my HTPC to a Delta E of under 2. This is not using a LUT the projectors colour tools. The two inputs I am switching between are on the same Projector input, the AVR is doing the input switching, so all in-projector menu settings and in theory colour settings are retained across all the inputs. I have made sure my Marantz Pre/Pro has all image processing off, and same with Samsung (User Preset, all dials on zero).

My camera is a Canon 7d Mark II, I was using an 18-35mm lens at 2.8, ISO 400 or so, and a 20msec exposure on a still tripod and I absolutely did not touch exposure or any controls over the course of the images.

I would highly reccomend downloading the whole Zip file and having a look for yourself, its interesting. Looks like an RC value of around 20 on 1080p content closes the gap considerably to looking fairly close to native 4k materal.

https://www.dropbox....risons.zip?dl=0

Regardless, here are the pics.

P.S If you want to see something really interesting, open the RC20 file of any of the 1080p Screenshots, then open the UHD RC Off file of the same screenshot and compare them... there is NOT much if any fine detail difference between 1080p and UHD at that point... Maybe an teeny amount but hardly anything.

1080p - RC Off




UHD - RC Off




1080p RC 5



UHD RC 5



1080p RC Off



UHD RC Off




1080p RC 5



UHD RC 5



1080p RC Off



UHD RC Off




1080P RC 5



UHD RC 5




1080p RC Off



UHD RC Off



1080P RC 5



UHD RC 5

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post #2 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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1080p RC Off



UHD RC Off



1080p RC 5



UHD RC 5

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post #3 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 12:50 PM
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post #4 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 12:54 PM
 
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These types of comparison shots need to have a mouse over toggle to be effective, like videogame / graphics card review site screenshots
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post #5 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/sicario/

check out deadpool BD / UHD and see if the thoughts are the same


What actually started me down this path was A/B'ing The Revenant, there were scenes in that film which clearly looked no better over my 1080p output.

Will take some pictures of that one tomorrow.

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post #6 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
These types of comparison shots need to have a mouse over toggle to be effective, like videogame / graphics card review site screenshots
Any idea how I can set that up? Would be more than glad to redo the original post as such...

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post #7 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a pixel perfect baseline extracted from the MKV source. You can see the grade is very close indeed to the SLR pics of the HTPC images. Interesting to see how vastly different the 2020 grade is and the re-mapping. Nowhere near the cinema release...


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post #8 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 09:40 PM
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post #9 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 10:39 PM
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@Javs I would PESTER Sony for an update for your projector to enable HDR etc I have little to offer you otherwise with no experience with your Sony projector in question.

ps I have no idea if this any help for you, I run the samsung UHD-Blu-ray I popped the Sicario uhd blu-ray(us release) in the sammy for you as with the Sicario blu-ray (oz release)

PS I am using the JVC specified settings for UHD blu-ray including the JVC supplied BT2020 profile and latest firmware updates on both projector and player. For UHD blu-ray I am also running the suggest +7 contrast and +3 brightness setting in the samsung using a User picture mode I also cranked back to low lamp on the JVC to low lamp for this comparison so the impact of HDR isn't too much. for blu-ray I returned the player to Standard picture profile and made sure the player was only outputting as 1080p rather than using any upscaling in the player.

i've put a spoiler against the identifier of which is which

Spoiler!





Spoiler!




camera used is full frame 5D3 DSLR using a sigma 50 1.4 Art lens, just quick hand held shot for your benefit, for exposure I did a spot meter on the black roof line top middle of the screen. I personally dont think the camera really captures that well the full impact of what the eye sees but will give some clues oh and no post processing or in camera HDR jiggery pokery or anything, these are just straight out the camera
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post #10 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
@Javs I would PESTER Sony for an update for your projector to enable HDR etc I have little to offer you otherwise with no experience with your Sony projector in question.



ps I have no idea if this any help for you, I run the samsung UHD-Blu-ray I popped the Sicario uhd blu-ray(us release) in the sammy for you as with the Sicario blu-ray (oz release)



PS I am using the JVC specified settings for UHD blu-ray including the JVC supplied BT2020 profile and latest firmware updates on both projector and player. For UHD blu-ray I am also running the suggest +7 contrast and +3 brightness setting in the samsung using a User picture mode I also cranked back to low lamp on the JVC to low lamp for this comparison so the impact of HDR isn't too much. for blu-ray I returned the player to Standard picture profile and made sure the player was only outputting as 1080p rather than using any upscaling in the player.



i've put a spoiler against the identifier of which is which



Spoiler!










Spoiler!








camera used is full frame 5D3 DSLR using a sigma 50 1.4 Art lens, just quick hand held shot for your benefit, for exposure I did a spot meter on the black roof line top middle of the screen. I personally dont think the camera really captures that well the full impact of what the eye sees but will give some clues oh and no post processing or in camera HDR jiggery pokery or anything, these are just straight out the camera


Cheers mate. Interesting.

Do you notice much of a step up in the clarity with 1080p vs uhd?

PS I have that lens its awesome!

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post #11 of 40 Old 05-14-2016, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Cheers mate. Interesting.

Do you notice much of a step up in the clarity with 1080p vs uhd?

PS I have that lens its awesome!
its an interesting thing jav, when first got the player plugged in did a cursory viewing and have to say was a bit underwhelmed with uhd. but having got to where things at the last few days can easily say UHD blu-ray is not an out of box thing. there is a fair bit involved particularly with projectors. jvc have been kind to us in specifying exactly what is needed. with a BT2020 color profile, coupled with firmware updates for both projector and player and then also some specific settings for the samsung as well. and have to say it is a good step up. please keep in mind though blu-ray is SO good on its own. so its not a SD to HD type step up. its very different. there is some detail gains i.e. in definition and lets face it how many of us are going to be viewing to fully resolve 4k and how true 4K is there in source material. the step up comes in my opinion in a combination of WCG and HDR. in sicario check out that shower scene at the start the blood pouring down the rich redness ... the detail of hair skin tone. in the martian check out the opening scenes particularly the mars scenes the space suits the strident orange, the glistening of the metal the sheen even of the flags on their suits. it certainly hits you in the face ... its all just so much richer and more real. uhd vs blu-ray I am impressed and this even with the budget sammy

re the lens yep love it.. I also own the 35 mm 1.4 art. both are lovely lenses. the 50mm on the full frame best replicates the human field of view and I photo graph back from main viewing position so hopefully does best to give some impression what am seeing

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post #12 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
its an interesting thing jav, when first got the player plugged in did a cursory viewing and have to say was a bit underwhelmed with uhd. but having got to where things at the last few days can easily say UHD blu-ray is not an out of box thing. there is a fair bit involved particularly with projectors. jvc have been kind to us in specifying exactly what is needed. with a BT2020 color profile, coupled with firmware updates for both projector and player and then also some specific settings for the samsung as well. and have to say it is a good step up. please keep in mind though blu-ray is SO good on its own. so its not a SD to HD type step up. its very different. there is some detail gains i.e. in definition and lets face it how many of us are going to be viewing to fully resolve 4k and how true 4K is there in source material. the step up comes in my opinion in a combination of WCG and HDR. in sicario check out that shower scene at the start the blood pouring down the rich redness ... the detail of hair skin tone. in the martian check out the opening scenes particularly the mars scenes the space suits the strident orange, the glistening of the metal the sheen even of the flags on their suits. it certainly hits you in the face ... its all just so much richer and more real. uhd vs blu-ray I am impressed and this even with the budget sammy

re the lens yep love it.. I also own the 35 mm 1.4 art. both are lovely lenses. the 50mm on the full frame best replicates the human field of view and I photo graph back from main viewing position so hopefully does best to give some impression what am seeing
wow, so looking at your images on my 30inch and not my iphone... There is a HUGE difference in detailed resolution between the two.

Are you seeing that much of a quality difference in real life? If you check out some of my comparisons, the gap so damn close in the images that the only thing that really stands out when not zooming right in to the image is the grade is different...

Are you able to get the projectors 1080p image to look very close to the 4k image by using E-shift at all?

This may be the key to weather I side step to an X7000 or not. I cannot for the life of me see a clear in your face image difference between UHD and HD on my projector especially when RC is involved... I can get 1080p blurays looking SO good that for the past year I have been sitting there during movies asking myself how 4k could possibly top what I am already seeing.

But interestingly your 1080p BR image does seem pretty soft and almost blurry by comparison to your UHD shot, I guess its just the autofocus from hand held shooting? Its cool if it is, I will take your word on how you think 1080 compares to UHD for you. Perhaps turn off HDR and just let me know how it compares when all the extra colour is taken out of the equasion, as at the moment I am really interested in how the JVC panels play ball.

Having said that, knowing your X7000 is not native 4k, that UHD image looks pretty damn sweet so there is something very good happening there. Its just a question as to weather regular HD can be made to look pretty good (Seeing as I can get them so close you need to flip back and forth between frames to see the difference).

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post #13 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
wow, so looking at your images on my 30inch and not my iphone... There is a HUGE difference in detailed resolution between the two.

Are you seeing that much of a quality difference in real life? If you check out some of my comparisons, the gap so damn close in the images that the only thing that really stands out when not zooming right in to the image is the grade is different...

~
good to see you can pick some differences.....I honestly dont think camera pics up how good either are in reality. the gap is wider in real life the glass on the windows of the car. the text on the car. the detail in the mud fore ground the detail of the landscape all the way through to the hills afar. it all just looks so much more real in reality that camera I dont think captures that well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
~

Are you able to get the projectors 1080p image to look very close to the 4k image by using E-shift at all?

This may be the key to weather I side step to an X7000 or not. I cannot for the life of me see a clear in your face image difference between UHD and HD on my projector especially when RC is involved... I can get 1080p blurays looking SO good that for the past year I have been sitting there during movies asking myself how 4k could possibly top what I am already seeing.

But interestingly your 1080p BR image does seem pretty soft and almost blurry by comparison to your UHD shot, I guess its just the autofocus from hand held shooting? Its cool if it is, I will take your word on how you think 1080 compares to UHD for you. Perhaps turn off HDR and just let me know how it compares when all the extra colour is taken out of the equasion, as at the moment I am really interested in how the JVC panels play ball.

Having said that, knowing your X7000 is not native 4k, that UHD image looks pretty damn sweet so there is something very good happening there. Its just a question as to weather regular HD can be made to look pretty good (Seeing as I can get them so close you need to flip back and forth between frames to see the difference).
am not running any enhancing , dynamic contrast, noise reduction, smoothing or anything in mpc have all that turned off, as with clear motion drive and motion enhance is also all turned off in blur reduction - I've never liked what this stuff does. whether blu-ray can be made better ? down know I've been watching my last jvc for last 3 or so years thinking gee how much better can it get and then in the last 6 months getting the new jvc was surprised at the gains. so probably can always do better with blu-ray and no doubt be continued to be surprised !

I wish you were in melb you would be welcome to check out for yourself. though will tell you comparisons uhd to blu-ray are not quick and easy in themselves as would take probably good 5+ minutes swapping between formats. if had two identical players could do some swaps on the fly though suspect even then the hdcp goodness knows how would handle the probably still a good 15 sec gap in synching at least which makes comparisons not so easy relying on memory a tad. in some ways the photographs a good reminder

ps question in my mind infact can uhd get better, am still yet to play with built in patterns on the sony discs which would only help optimise the setup further am thinking...plus am unsure what benefit a player like pana uhd might bring on other hand. but have to say quite pleased with the sammy for the moment and cancelled my pana order from amazon. happy to wait see what comes in time pana or other wise with the sammy being just fine for the moment I think.

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post #14 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony 300Es 1080P BR w/RC Vs UHD BR 4K Comparison

Ok so here is a few snaps from Sicario... I took a whole lot from the Revenant which will follow.



What is clear I guess most of all is just how much the grade has changed between HD and UHD. Its a complete tonal shift. I am not sure I like it at all.



As for the quality of the UHD vs HD.. there are some shots where its fairly clear there is an improvement, natural sharpness I guess is the key word. But there are other shots where you would be hard pressed to tell. The grade being so vastly different makes this difficult.



By now you should be able to recognise which is from my HTPC (Pause Button and Timecode) and which is from the Samsung (No Timecode)



RC is on 5 for all screen-shots, both in UHD and HD.



Here are all the screenshots in a zip:



https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdxqe2fpdw...isons.zip?dl=0



HTPC - This shot is actually sharper and resolves more detail than the UHD! WTF! BLow it up and focus on the two mexican dudes way off in the background standing by the truck. The 1080p resolves a bit of the facial features, the UHD is a blur there. Many other points but overall the 1080 is cleaner and sharper here.







UHD







HTPC







UHD







HTPC







UHD




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post #15 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The Revenant

HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD



HTPC



UHD


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post #16 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 04:12 AM
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From what I can see,

1) The 1080p shots are all shifted toward blue more. I think in general I like the UHD shots better because of this. I'm not sure how the Revenant was intended to look, but the snow shots are much more white because of this.

2) Some of the UHD shots are too dark. Gamma looks a lot different.
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post #17 of 40 Old 05-15-2016, 05:00 AM
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as many might know both the blu-ray and uhd got distinct treatment in with regards their presentations. review below probably describes it best in the differences.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/item/revenant-uhd

The Revenant was captured digitally by director Alejandro Iñárritu and cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki (a.k.a. Chivo) in ARRI Raw (6K) and Redcode RAW (6K) formats using ARRI Alexa 65 (with Hasselblad Prime lenses) and Red Epic Dragon cameras. The film was finished to a 4K Digital Intermediate in the 2.39:1 aspect ratio, and that DI was used to produce Fox’s 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray presentation. It’s worth noting that the color grading for Ultra HD was done separately from the regular Blu-ray. Though both were supervised and approved by Chivo and Iñárritu, different choices were made – particularly once they saw what HDR was capable of. So while the Blu-ray color timing has a somewhat cool and stylized look, the Ultra HD offers a much more naturalistic presentation. Having grown up on this part of the country, I can attest that the Ultra HD image does indeed accurately capture the dramatic look and feel of this landscape. The sheer impact of the imagery in The Revenant is extraordinary – it really has to be experienced in order to fully appreciate what that means. The landscape itself is a character in this film, alive with portent and potential in virtually every scene. The Ultra HD presentation captures the theatrical experience perfectly.

reminds me I should check out revenant again. the first time I checked it out on uhd I was a bit ho hum. but since getting all the settings right the glimpse I have had have been very special. might check out tonight on a more extended basis

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post #18 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 05:46 AM
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I have a 350ES Sony pj, and I have said from DAY 1 that, while varied by disc and by degree, UHD discs look AWESOME. I stand by it. If you search the forums, you will see my posts attest to this.

I totally understand that without HDR, we are losing out on a whole other level of awesome, but that said, the difference between BD and UHD on titles like Kingsmen, Hitman, Deadpool, The Revenant, Maze Runner, and others... well, to these eyes it's apparent.

I am not going to ever have a collection of 100+ UHD discs, as I don't re-watch many films. I will, however, always buy great films (I borrowed Hitman LOL!) on UHD as I love the quality upgrade I see, and where applicable, ATMOS. I have a 7.1.4 setup that i love to take advantage of!

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I have a 350ES Sony pj, and I have said from DAY 1 that, while varied by disc and by degree, UHD discs look AWESOME. I stand by it. If you search the forums, you will see my posts attest to this.



I totally understand that without HDR, we are losing out on a whole other level of awesome, but that said, the difference between BD and UHD on titles like Kingsmen, Hitman, Deadpool, The Revenant, Maze Runner, and others... well, to these eyes it's apparent.



I am not going to ever have a collection of 100+ UHD discs, as I don't re-watch many films. I will, however, always buy great films (I borrowed Hitman LOL!) on UHD as I love the quality upgrade I see, and where applicable, ATMOS. I have a 7.1.4 setup that i love to take advantage of!



Just my thoughts


As I said in my original post, when Reality Creation is in the mix the visual difference is not much at all.

Again though as I said earlier, turn Reality Creation OFF on the projector and the difference is HUGE and the difference in detail slaps you in the face.

Some films have absolutely spectacular bluray releases, The Revenant is one of them, Sicario is another. Thats why I focused on those two.

The others you mentioned are 2k films already so I am not sure what you think you are seeing there, perhaps a more aggressive grade or some decent upscaling, a little more bitrate on the transfer...

From what ai have seen when you take HDR out of the mix and look at whats left on a film that had a 2K DI. There is pretty much nothing in it, placebo effect. When Reality Creation is ON.

Don't get me wrong, this is all more of an observation rather than canning UHD. The format has massive potential. I think what we need is a native 4k projector with an absolutely fantastic and clean lens so we can be sure the projectors are resolving all of this extra detail.

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post #20 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 09:06 AM
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As I said in my original post, when Reality Creation is in the mix the visual difference is not much at all.

Again though as I said earlier, turn Reality Creation OFF on the projector and the difference is HUGE and the difference in detail slaps you in the face.

Some films have absolutely spectacular bluray releases, The Revenant is one of them, Sicario is another. Thats why I focused on those two.

The others you mentioned are 2k films already so I am not sure what you think you are seeing there, perhaps a more aggressive grade or some decent upscaling, a little more bitrate on the transfer...

From what ai have seen when you take HDR out of the mix and look at whats left on a film that had a 2K DI. There is pretty much nothing in it, placebo effect. When Reality Creation is ON.

Don't get me wrong, this is all more of an observation rather than canning UHD. The format has massive potential. I think what we need is a native 4k projector with an absolutely fantastic and clean lens so we can be sure the projectors are resolving all of this extra detail.
I did a bunch of A/B comparison testing with my VW600 using The Martian. I'll admit that the difference with that movie isn't night and day. But, the UHD picture looked like it had less noise, and looked more " solid " ( for lack of a better term ) and slightly more detailed on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 StudioTek 130 G3. It wasn't a huge difference, but going forward I will buy the UHD version of any movies I'm interested in getting. Any improvement is welcome. I'm thinking that mastering 4K movies on UHD discs will probably improve going forward too. Note that I see a bigger difference on my JVC when taking advantage of the wider color gammut.
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I did a bunch of A/B comparison testing with my VW600 using The Martian. I'll admit that the difference with that movie isn't night and day. But, the UHD picture looked like it had less noise, and looked more " solid " ( for lack of a better term ) and slightly more detailed on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 StudioTek 130 G3. It wasn't a huge difference, but going forward I will buy the UHD version of any movies I'm interested in getting. Any improvement is welcome. I'm thinking that mastering 4K movies on UHD discs will probably improve going forward too. Note that I see a bigger difference on my JVC when taking advantage of the wider color gammut.


Yeah absolutely, UHD all the way moving forward. And you are right, Bluray didn't become truly amazing until a couple of years ago frankly. And we all know how long DVD took to look great too.

I think I am just very impressed with Sonys upscaling of BR discs, thats evident here.

I don't remember if you used RC or not Craig? If not give it a go, for 1080p content it does a lot, not very much with UHD though, still worth having it on a low setting though IMO.

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post #22 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 10:00 AM
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Yeah absolutely, UHD all the way moving forward. And you are right, Bluray didn't become truly amazing until a couple of years ago frankly. And we all know how long DVD took to look great too.

I think I am just very impressed with Sonys upscaling of BR discs, thats evident here.

I don't remember if you used RC or not Craig? If not give it a go, for 1080p content it does a lot, not very much with UHD though, still worth having it on a low setting though IMO.
I do use RC. I would agree that the recent Blu Rays in general look so good, it's amazing sometimes. Can they make a UHD of " Gladiator " look better than the re - mastered Blu Ray ( which looks pretty darn good now )? I don't know, but I'll probably double dip that title if they can !
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As I said in my original post, when Reality Creation is in the mix the visual difference is not much at all.

Again though as I said earlier, turn Reality Creation OFF on the projector and the difference is HUGE and the difference in detail slaps you in the face.

Some films have absolutely spectacular bluray releases, The Revenant is one of them, Sicario is another. Thats why I focused on those two.

The others you mentioned are 2k films already so I am not sure what you think you are seeing there, perhaps a more aggressive grade or some decent upscaling, a little more bitrate on the transfer...

From what ai have seen when you take HDR out of the mix and look at whats left on a film that had a 2K DI. There is pretty much nothing in it, placebo effect. When Reality Creation is ON.


Don't get me wrong, this is all more of an observation rather than canning UHD. The format has massive potential. I think what we need is a native 4k projector with an absolutely fantastic and clean lens so we can be sure the projectors are resolving all of this extra detail.
jav watched mad max last night start to end .... and I do think what I bolded above isn't correct ...there is a lot to offer in a film like this . pretty much hits you in the face is my experience. even san andreas which is probably not greatly impacted in resolution wise infact am not really sure it has much to offer at all additional resolution wise ...but there too you cant take HDR and WCG out the mix...it is what makes the difference I do think. its just the colours look so much more real things look more solid. its the gleam the shine the rich ness the intensity. whether the red of the helicopter, the safety orange or even just everyday objects in the mix. it does make a difference

and these are just with the suggested settings samsung/jvc not even optimised to get the best of headroom as yet or any further tweaking on my part as yet

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post #24 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 06:51 PM
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I did a bunch of A/B comparison testing with my VW600 using The Martian. I'll admit that the difference with that movie isn't night and day. But, the UHD picture looked like it had less noise, and looked more " solid " ( for lack of a better term ) and slightly more detailed on my 128" diagonal 2.35:1 StudioTek 130 G3. It wasn't a huge difference, but going forward I will buy the UHD version of any movies I'm interested in getting. Any improvement is welcome. I'm thinking that mastering 4K movies on UHD discs will probably improve going forward too. Note that I see a bigger difference on my JVC when taking advantage of the wider color gammut.
mastering I have no doubt will improve even the movies I mentioned in the last post mad max and san andreas have grain thats more obvious or perhaps stirred up with the codec used not sure ...but these aspects can be distracting and no doubt be tweaked with further releases

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Yeah absolutely, UHD all the way moving forward. And you are right, Bluray didn't become truly amazing until a couple of years ago frankly. And we all know how long DVD took to look great too.

I think I am just very impressed with Sonys upscaling of BR discs, thats evident here.

I don't remember if you used RC or not Craig? If not give it a go, for 1080p content it does a lot, not very much with UHD though, still worth having it on a low setting though IMO.
early days indeed. there is absolutely NO question there are movies e.g. oblivion, lucy and sub you look at on blu-ray and wow how much better can it realistically get. both am sure will come to uhd....be indeed interesting how they turn out or how much more they bring to the mix.

ps re sonys upscaling sony has been doing it for a while e.g. with even going way back I remember their 5000es blu-ray player that i owned of theirs and it did have a bit of special sauce with the post processing it did. with regards reality creation ? I am to be honest not totally convinced ! worth reading zombies posts on this. personally I think natively Id rather see this stuff on the disc rather than try create something instead. i put it in the same camp as darbee quite frankly each will have their followers and fans no doubt though. and dont for one minute think am suggesting that if the gains are there for you they aren't real or anything like that. we are always just trying to make the best to eek the best out of something with these things

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post #25 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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jav watched mad max last night start to end .... and I do think what I bolded above isn't correct ...there is a lot to offer in a film like this . pretty much hits you in the face is my experience. even san andreas which is probably not greatly impacted in resolution wise infact am not really sure it has much to offer at all additional resolution wise ...but there too you cant take HDR and WCG out the mix...it is what makes the difference I do think. its just the colours look so much more real things look more solid. its the gleam the shine the rich ness the intensity. whether the red of the helicopter, the safety orange or even just everyday objects in the mix. it does make a difference

and these are just with the suggested settings samsung/jvc not even optimised to get the best of headroom as yet or any further tweaking on my part as yet
Al, my projector does not have the extended colour gamut mate, that's what you are seeing with all the extra colours. Get a 300ES and then have a look

The other thing I keep talking about is Reality Creation on the Sony units, you need to remember I use this daily no matter what I am watching, and with 1080p Blurays it looks fugen fantastic and essentially almost 4k the upscaling is that good, I took heaps of shots to prove it, and even one or two of the stone cold nutters on DTV flat out agreed with me to his shock and horror that Sicario actually resolved more detail with RC on my 1080p vs UHD copy. So, when I move to an UHD disk, with what I already see in 1080p, there is not much in it.

You have said before you dont use E-Shift, well if its anything like what happens when I turn off Reality Creation on a 1080p source, it just looks to me like the whole screen is out of focus and a big blur by comparison, literally. So I think we are getting mixed up here. This is a comparison on Reality Creation with 1080p sources vs UHD material on the Sony 4K units.

I am forced to watch UHD in Rec.709 rather than Rec.2020 too, so you have 10bit colour and WAY more gamut on your JVC than the picture I am seeing.

I have Mad Max in UHD and I have watched it. (I have ten UHD Discs)... It was over-saturated vs my Bluray copy, it was not correct mate. The flames looked utterly fake and stood out in the background like 2d elements cut and pasted into the frame, the coloured flares they shot into the sky were so over-saturated it was a joke, almost neon in colour and looked super fake. I don't know what to say about that film but if I had you in my house and we switched between the BR and the UHD disc on my projector I don't even have to know you to say you would agree with me. The only people that could possibly like the image on my Mad Max disc are people who enjoy watching TV's on super dynamic-nowhere-near-calibrated modes.

I try not to talk about colour grade much in any of my comparisons, because these are all HDR discs in Rec.2020 and I have neither, so my observations on colour at this point would be flat out incorrect as I dont even have the means to have an opinion on something I am not fully seeing. I have only ever been about the detail and sharpness in the image compared to my 1080p sources with Reality Creation.

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post #26 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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mastering I have no doubt will improve even the movies I mentioned in the last post mad max and san andreas have grain thats more obvious or perhaps stirred up with the codec used not sure ...but these aspects can be distracting and no doubt be tweaked with further releases



early days indeed. there is absolutely NO question there are movies e.g. oblivion, lucy and sub you look at on blu-ray and wow how much better can it realistically get. both am sure will come to uhd....be indeed interesting how they turn out or how much more they bring to the mix.

ps re sonys upscaling sony has been doing it for a while e.g. with even going way back I remember their 5000es blu-ray player that i owned of theirs and it did have a bit of special sauce with the post processing it did. with regards reality creation ? I am to be honest not totally convinced ! worth reading zombies posts on this. personally I think natively Id rather see this stuff on the disc rather than try create something instead. i put it in the same camp as darbee quite frankly each will have their followers and fans no doubt though. and dont for one minute think am suggesting that if the gains are there for you they aren't real or anything like that. we are always just trying to make the best to eek the best out of something with these things
Grain is not something I would want to get rid of.... thats how it was recorded, thats how it should stay.

Oblivion! Exactly, Another film, which unless they go back and do some kind of super magic 4k DI, there is going to be hardly any difference between what I see in 1080p and what the UHD disc looks like, I will even take the shots to prove it when it comes out. I bet you they will also mess up the fantastic colour grade they have done.

To be perfectly honest, unless you have spent some time with an actual 4k Sony projector with Reality Creation, you have no idea how good it can look. I would probably agree that on a 1080p panel there is not much to see there, but RC when a 4k native panel is involved is a whole other can of worms, it transforms a 1080p image. Zombies published Reality Creation comparisons were done on old Sony 1080p units btw.

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post #27 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:33 PM
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Al, my projector does not have the extended colour gamut mate, that's what you are seeing with all the extra colours. Get a 300ES and then have a look

The other thing I keep talking about is Reality Creation on the Sony units, you need to remember I use this daily no matter what I am watching, and with 1080p Blurays it looks fugen fantastic and essentially almost 4k the upscaling is that good, I took heaps of shots to prove it, and even one or two of the stone cold nutters on DTV flat out agreed with me to his shock and horror that Sicario actually resolved more detail with RC on my 1080p vs UHD copy. So, when I move to an UHD disk, with what I already see in 1080p, there is not much in it.

You have said before you dont use E-Shift, well if its anything like what happens when I turn off Reality Creation on a 1080p source, it just looks to me like the whole screen is out of focus and a big blur by comparison, literally. So I think we are getting mixed up here. This is a comparison on Reality Creation with 1080p sources vs UHD material on the Sony 4K units.

I am forced to watch UHD in Rec.709 rather than Rec.2020 too, so you have 10bit colour and WAY more gamut on your JVC than the picture I am seeing.

I have Mad Max in UHD and I have watched it. (I have ten UHD Discs)... It was over-saturated vs my Bluray copy, it was not correct mate. The flames looked utterly fake and stood out in the background like 2d elements cut and pasted into the frame, the coloured flares they shot into the sky were so over-saturated it was a joke, almost neon in colour and looked super fake. I don't know what to say about that film but if I had you in my house and we switched between the BR and the UHD disc on my projector I don't even have to know you to say you would agree with me. The only people that could possibly like the image on my Mad Max disc are people who enjoy watching TV's on super dynamic-nowhere-near-calibrated modes.

I try not to talk about colour grade much in any of my comparisons, because these are all HDR discs in Rec.2020 and I have neither, so my observations on colour at this point would be flat out incorrect as I dont even have the means to have an opinion on something I am not fully seeing. I have only ever been about the detail and sharpness in the image compared to my 1080p sources with Reality Creation.
question for you if RC helps so much with all material watch everyday...and not questioning that for a minute by the way...wouldnt you think it would bring to the fore even more with 4k uhd ...even if had a smidgeon more detail ? or at very least if off the same sample you'd expect it to have the same detail at the very least ? or are you not running RC with 4k uhd. and if not why not ?

and oh yes as I think I mentioned I have literally zero experience wiht the sony in question let alone with aspects in discussion on here with regards to it. just saw your posts saying must be placebo etc with 2k and imagining things and thought oh not with the last two movies watched just in the last day. and yeah your reminder the lack of BT2020 color profile WCG or HDR with the sony probably makes my point mute as none of these are in play with your discussion here. understand if just talking about resolution here...personally I do think in the last 10 days of experiencing UHD across a variety of movies those factors though are perhaps bigger attraction than say pure resolution or 4k in iteslf.
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post #28 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:41 PM
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Grain is not something I would want to get rid of.... thats how it was recorded, thats how it should stay.

Oblivion! Exactly, Another film, which unless they go back and do some kind of super magic 4k DI, there is going to be hardly any difference between what I see in 1080p and what the UHD disc looks like, I will even take the shots to prove it when it comes out. I bet you they will also mess up the fantastic colour grade they have done.

To be perfectly honest, unless you have spent some time with an actual 4k Sony projector with Reality Creation, you have no idea how good it can look. I would probably agree that on a 1080p panel there is not much to see there, but RC when a 4k native panel is involved is a whole other can of worms, it transforms a 1080p image. Zombies published Reality Creation comparisons were done on old Sony 1080p units btw.
not talking abut grain removal. the grain is a curious thing.... and I will have to go back to blu-ray versions of mad max and san andreas to explore at some stage (not a big priority) but more a curiosity. these were digitally shot....grain was added in for film look. however somewhere I believe in the codec conversions or up sampling or whether its the format itself it is more obvious in the uhd version and it has also stirred it up a bit more

ps I have spent some time with a sony 4k projector and reality creation in the sony 1100es and little brother on release. but I am sorry to say It was all a bit of a meh experience. and certainly nothing in ownership let alone over extended periods or even with the specific unit discussed here. I remember zombies on the 1100es prior to him selling it though they are only his posts on it so probably best talking to him directly - he might have some tips too. horses mouth and all that to get a direct take on the matter

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post #29 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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question for you if RC helps so much with all material watch everyday...and not questioning that for a minute by the way...wouldnt you think it would bring to the fore even more with 4k uhd ...even if had a smidgeon more detail ? or at very least if off the same sample you'd expect it to have the same detail at the very least ? or are you not running RC with 4k uhd. and if not why not ?

and oh yes as I think I mentioned I have literally zero experience wiht the sony in question let alone with aspects in discussion on here with regards to it. just saw your posts saying must be placebo etc with 2k and imagining things and thought oh not with the last two movies watched just in the last day. and yeah your reminder the lack of BT2020 color profile WCG or HDR with the sony probably makes my point mute as none of these are in play with your discussion here. understand if just talking about resolution here...personally I do think in the last 10 days of experiencing UHD across a variety of movies those factors though are perhaps bigger attraction than say pure resolution or 4k in iteslf.
I still use it in 4k, but the gain is not so much, still there though, only visible in person, screen-shots would not show what RC does in 4k off/on. You have to turn it way up to get it to really show but at that point since it is already a 4k source on a 4k panel, this is where it gets into the realm of not really being able to do too much.

You took a couple of screen-shots of Sicario yourself remember, in HD vs UHD... have a look at those, and then have a look at my HD vs UHD shots, the ones I posted of the same scene in Sicario a few posts up, (I re-shot those images after you sent me yours initially) you will see your HD vs my HD shots are so wildly different in terms of apparent detail, sharpness etc it makes yours look out of focus essentially, and your UHD shots were exactly what I was seeing in UHD also. I was shocked at this when I saw your shots, and finally it gave me some perspective on where everyone else in the JVC camp was coming from when they talk about the gained UHD detail.

I am really excited to get some extra colour information and have a good look at HDR when I get a new unit. If I didn't care about those things I would be keeping my Sony 300ES. But the lack of a great black floor and those UHD elements I am missing makes me really want to get an X7000 and see how they are. Given how 1080p looks 'out of focus' on my Sony though when RC is off, I am slightly worried about how the JVC renders 1080p especially if your Sicario shots are anything to go by. I wont like it. Perhaps turning on E-Shift will fix that for me, or I will need to add a Darbee to the chain for non UHD content, which, lets face it, is going to be 90% of the projector usage for the next year at least. I watch at least 4-6 hours per day and there is only so many UHD discs out there

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post #30 of 40 Old 05-20-2016, 07:57 PM
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I still use it in 4k, but the gain is not so much, still there though, only visible in person, screen-shots would not show what RC does in 4k off/on. You have to turn it way up to get it to really show but at that point since it is already a 4k source on a 4k panel, this is where it gets into the realm of not really being able to do too much.

You took a couple of screen-shots of Sicario yourself remember, in HD vs UHD... have a look at those, and then have a look at my HD vs UHD shots, the ones I posted of the same scene in Sicario a few posts up, (I re-shot those images after you sent me yours initially) you will see your HD vs my HD shots are so wildly different in terms of apparent detail, sharpness etc it makes yours look out of focus essentially, and your UHD shots were exactly what I was seeing in UHD also. I was shocked at this when I saw your shots, and finally it gave me some perspective on where everyone else in the JVC camp was coming from when they talk about the gained UHD detail.

I am really excited to get some extra colour information and have a good look at HDR when I get a new unit. If I didn't care about those things I would be keeping my Sony 300ES. But the lack of a great black floor and those UHD elements I am missing makes me really want to get an X7000 and see how they are. Given how 1080p looks 'out of focus' on my Sony though when RC is off, I am slightly worried about how the JVC renders 1080p especially if your Sicario shots are anything to go by. I wont like it. Perhaps turning on E-Shift will fix that for me, or I will need to add a Darbee to the chain for non UHD content, which, lets face it, is going to be 90% of the projector usage for the next year at least. I watch at least 4-6 hours per day and there is only so many UHD discs out there
personally I wouldn't compare between screen shots of completely different setups.... too many variables. probably best to check out yourself as you obviously intend

I'm not a sharpness nazi by the way.... so not something specifically chase and darbee for instance I find works to detriment of the overall picture. I do infact run E-shift however I run none of the other enhancements settings on the jvc, and theres a multitude of them but turned them all off down to zero pretty much the day I got the projector. we re perhaps coming from different angles on this and your own look you are chasing might determine otherwise

its great we atleast have the choice of a couple of brands so matter of settling with what comfortable with

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


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